The Power of Boundaries

Anita Brick:

Hi, this is Anita Brick and welcome to Career Cast at Chicago Booth to help you advance in your career Today we're delighted. Well, I would say more than delighted to be speaking with Sherry Jacobs. She is a bestselling author, keynote speaker, and innovation strategist who helps organizations unlock their creative potential by rethinking boundaries, risks, and leadership. As the founder of Avenue M Group, she has partnered with over 300 organizations and surveyed over half a million people to uncover what drives real transformation, which we know is not an easy thing to do and growth. When she's not working with teams or speaking on stage, you'll find her running, playing tennis, photographing wildlife in remote corners of the world or in her home in Denver, Colorado. Sherry, thank you so much and I'm very excited about our having a conversation around boundaries. I love the book that you wrote, the Unexpected Power of Boundaries, so thank you for making time. I know you're very busy.

Sheri Jones:

Thank you Anita so much. It's truly my pleasure to be here.

Anita Brick:

Okay, so we're going to focus on being practical and actionable. I feel like I hardly even need to say that to you because the way you approach things is I would say, from an encouraging, empathetic place and practical and actionable. So let's start this first one. A few years ago I would've asked the same question. So an MBA student said, I work in a culture of thinking outside of the box. When I suggest putting some boundaries in place, I'm told that I'm not creative enough. Where can I start to include boundaries, show them as a good thing and not as a restriction?

Sheri Jones:

Thinking outside the box is something that we have all heard in a brief or a brainstorm and people think it's liberating, but it's actually kind of paralyzing and I don't think that the student is not creative. I think they just want more clarity. I tell a story in the book where there was a landscape architect student who wanted to run an experiment to see how boundaries impact how children play, how creative they can be. So he asked a group of preschool teachers to take their kids to two different parks and they're both very similar. They had swings slides and wood chips and big grassy area, but one park had no fence, no boundary wide open space, and the other had a fence that went all the way around it. What most people think is that unlimited freedom to explore and to create is what's needed that think outside the box mentality.

However, what the landscape architect found was that when the kids were at the park with the fence, they had clarity around how far they can go and they explored and were creative in their play and the kids on the playground with no fence stayed on the playground and did the same types of activities they always do. So when I speak or I speak with students or with adult or individuals who are working in a variety of environments, I share that story because it makes sense and then I say, instead of thinking outside the box or having no boundaries, instead just think about what we want to accomplish, our why we want to do that, and then pull in some clarity around how far you can experiment and go so that you can be creative but within those boundaries.

Anita Brick:

Okay, great. So can you think of a business example? This is another MBA student who said, can you please give me an example of how to decide where the boundary should exist in the midst of an existing constraint or somewhere else?

Sheri Jones:

I love that question. I definitely have one of my favorite business examples and a couple of suggestions. One of my favorite examples actually comes from a highly regulated environment, which is banking part of my framework, which is where you have to separate the why, the what and the how. So the why is a variety of different things. It's why you are doing what problem you are solving. That's what are the boundaries that you put in place so that you can find a solution. How is where you leave something unscripted? That's where you explore and you create. So in the case of Bank of America, their why was we want our customers to save more money, which makes really good business sense for the bank and is also good for the customers. They didn't jump into let's create a new savings app or let's change people's behavior.

They just started with the why we want people to save money. Then they created three very clear boundaries for their team. They said, whatever we do, there's going to be no new technology. People are going to use their existing debit card. Second, we are not going to change people's behavior, like their spending habits. Pretty amazing that they're going to get people to save money without coming out with these ideas around how you can save and the third critical in today's world across all industries, which is let's make it frictionless and easy because they had those boundaries in place but told the team they can create anything within it. Their team did some research and what they found is that every time somebody made a purchase on their debit card, they naturally rounded up in their minds to the nearest dollar on how much they spent.

So using that research and those boundaries, they came up with the Keep the change program, which is every time somebody using the existing debit card spend money on a Starbucks or on their coffee they get every morning, they would round up those pennies to the nearest dollar and transfer it from their checking to their savings, and it was perfect because it was frictionless. You used existing technology and it didn't change their behavior and pennies turned into dollars into millions of dollars. I love that idea that define, you start with the why We're doing what problem are we solving? You define the what, which are the boundaries, but then how you leave, you don't jump into the solution, you leave that how to be explored by your team.

Anita Brick:

I really like that a lot because a lot of the problems that can occur with new technology and changing behavior, there could be a lot of resistance to use new technology and change behavior. This made it easy for everyone. I suspect that it didn't cost nearly as much as if they hadn't put the boundaries in place.

Sheri Jones:

If you want to take this story and bring it back to your own organization, I say you start by saying we are solving X, right? What is the X? But we can only use Y, right? What are the different things that we're going to put in place here? Or another way that I tell people is instead of let's brainstorm 50 ideas or go to an AI tool and say, give me 20 ideas for solving this problem. Instead, put in some very clear boundaries in there, right? Think about what are three solutions that cost under $500 and we can launch in two weeks. Those are boundaries that are very clear that make it actually easier to then start that creativity process. It's not about restricting ideas, it's just trying to provide a better framework that you come up with ones that are realistic and that you can execute on.

Anita Brick:

I love that because I think that sometimes people set these big ginormous initiatives, well, we're going to be really innovative and creative, but you and I both know and probably people listening too, that most advancement happens on the margin and I think by having the boundaries, you're moving people in that direction to make it more effective and more motivating for everybody.

Sheri Jones:

Absolutely.

Anita Brick:

Okay. We know that a lot of things have been changing ai, the least of it, geopolitical, all of this is going on, so here's another boothy who said, if nobody thinks changing, what advice would you have for questioning assumptions and potentially shifting boundaries?

Sheri Jones:

A great question. So smart in thinking about are boundaries firm and in place, and can you even move those boundaries with so much changing, how do you stay on top of all that? One of the pieces of advice that I give is to step away from a typical phrase that you hear, which is around risk tolerance and determine your risk capacity. In startups, there is usually a high tolerance for risk. People do understand that, but there are a variety of different things that you're making decisions on that shouldn't be emotional and you shouldn't be making decisions just because you have this high risk tolerance for experimentation and for failure. That's important, but what's really necessary with today's changing world and with the speed of change right now, the constant change is to understand your capacity, so your capacity is very different. That might be your resources, how much time you have, the financial aspect of it or capacity could be your reputation that you have or your knowledge that you have. Once you determine your capacity for making change and for risks, then you could determine should these boundaries stay in place or should we move these boundaries?

Anita Brick:

What kind of questions do you ask? What are a couple of questions you ask to make sure you're not shifting the boundaries to be reactive or that you're not shifting the boundaries because it's scary? How do you determine maybe with a little bit more detail how to shift those assumptions and consequently at least consider those boundaries? I love the idea by the way, of risk capacity because tolerance is based on emotions alone, which of course are a good factor, but capacity, you really have to look at the nuts and bolts of a business. Give us an example when some client of yours move from risk tolerance as the focus to risk capacity.

Sheri Jones:

Sure. First, lemme answer your first part. Where do you start? I think that you should start with two questions. One is what is the human outcome we're trying to create, right? That's your purpose. And then two, what can we actually afford to lose if it doesn't work? That's your capacity. The boundary lives between those two answers, so it should be tied enough to force creative choices, but loose enough that the team has genuine room to surprise you. Existing constraints, as I mentioned, are like budget and time and regulations are sometimes there. Your job is to decide which of those are features and not bug. I have a story recently I was working with an organization that works in the built environment and very traditional company, and they work in hardwoods, and what I learned is that there are only six species that are here in North America, and what happens is that we all are dreaming of building a home or creating something that may have a cherrywood or bamboo or other types of wood that are not found here in North America right now.

There are many, many restrictions on this industry. They have different regulations, they have tariffs, but also just where you're sourcing the wood. One company out there decided to take all of those restrictions and they had three choices. They could have either walked away and said, we're not going to bring in that product. Or two, they could have outsourced it to somebody and hoped for the best, or three, they could actually build in a process into what they were selling. So they weren't just selling the wood, they actually were selling the process, giving people the confidence to buy their wood, and that actually became part of their product and they became a leader in that industry because they built in those restrictions, those regulations into it. But going back to it, they were thinking about what are we trying to create here? Who are we trying to serve? What's our purpose for being here and what can we actually afford to lose if it doesn't work? They use those two questions to evaluate the three things. Do we walk away? Do we outsource it or do we build a new process around it?

Anita Brick:

I love that. Something along these lines are a couple of situations where leadership is butting up against people who want a lot of freedom. So let's talk about the first one. This is another Boothy who said, I'm in the midst of creating a startup. Potential founding members seem to be looking for unlimited freedom. I believe that this would create failure. So how do you advise startups to build freedom and boundaries simultaneously?

Sheri Jones:

I could absolutely relate to this because years ago I was with a startup. It was because of the brilliance of the founders in creating strict boundaries is why our startup succeeded a tremendous lesson because our company succeeded while many others didn't. Again, separating the why, the what, the how, and making sure we all understand we're all here and we know what problem we are solving. Then you bring in the different fences that are here. What does this look like? What are the audiences, right? We've all heard the term don't boil the sea yet. It's funny because so many new businesses and startups say, wow, there are endless possibilities of audiences that could come in the market's huge, but that is not only overwhelming, but it doesn't provide you with enough focus to go to market and to be successful. I was one of the initial people on the management team for a company called SurePayroll, which was eventually acquired by Paychex.

We had very narrow boundaries. We said, we are going to focus on businesses with 10 or fewer employees, and we also looked at the types of businesses and while we could have built a product or many products that would attract any small business, any type of any size company, having that narrow focus, something that one of the founders, Troy Henikoff and Michael Alter would describe as sharpening your pencil to break on through for the question, they have founding members that want unlimited freedom. When you sharpen your pencil, it is easier to break on through into that market, and that's where you define how can we bring in better focus into where we're going to break in because once we break on through, then we can widen it.

Anita Brick:

I love that. And on a lump, and I thought this is very interesting. I think that he might have been reading or have kids and setting boundaries he's learned is a good thing. He said that works with children. How do you do it with adults who may not be as receptive and are concerned that maybe you don't trust them?

Sheri Jones:

It's such a great question and it's true boundaries are great with children, but what's so interesting is that regardless of your age, your experience, your role within the company from the junior person who is the intern all the way up to the senior executive is that the fence doesn't say, I don't trust you. It says Here is where you can go full speed. The problem that most leaders have is not that they don't set boundaries, but sometimes they set boundaries and then micromanage the execution and that signals distrust. Be explicit about what is yours and what's theirs. I own this. I own the what, you own the how and within these lines, and that actually builds more trust to co-create what you might be able to create within it and provides ownership that you're going to see new ideas, better ideas that are going to form within the boundaries that you set.

Anita Brick:

Okay, so that's one part of it. You set the boundaries, everybody knows what they're responsible for and people who manage at whatever level, step away from the micromanagement so that people can actually perform. Here's the other thing that sometimes slows things down. An MBA student said, how do you help leaders build a culture that allows for and even encourages mistakes? I mean, we should have a business plan that can understand that and it goes along with risk capacity, but what specifically can someone do to really mean it? I mean, some people say, oh, it's fine to fail, it's fine to have mistakes and they really don't mean it. How do you create it so that people know you really mean it? You

Sheri Jones:

Can't encourage mistakes in the abstract. You have to really define which mistakes are acceptable and which ones aren't. And sometimes I've discovered is that that lack of clarity around that is what stalls innovation. So I was curious myself as someone who owns a research company, I went back and I pulled some data from over 18,000 people. I had surveyed across many different sectors, so from city planners and architects to lawyers, to physicians to scientists, many different industries, and I asked them all two questions. One, what is your biggest challenge? Which of course the answers were different by profession, but the second question I asked was, what is the thing that is getting in the way? What is the biggest obstacle to solving the problem? Time and time again, I heard the same answer and it was lack of clarity around where I can go myself and explore this.

The question you asked was how do you build a culture that allows or encourages mistakes? We have the data that tells us that when people don't know where they can explore, experiment, they stick with what they know. One is the part I mentioned before, which is define your risk capacity. Say, this is what we can afford to lose and make it visible so that everybody knows whether it is budget or timeline or kill criteria so that those data points become part of how you learn. And then second, something that SurePayroll that company I was with and that Michael Alter that he led was something called the Best new Mistake award, and the best new mistake was an award that was given out to employees at your payroll years ago for an individual who made a mistake, learned from it, and then applied it to something else, and that is the company saying that we do encourage and create a culture where people can experiment and that we understand that failure is a part of learning. You can't just tell your team that it's okay to fail. You have to show them where it's safe to fail, and that's a boundary and it's what actually gives people the courage to try.

Anita Brick:

You and I both know that founders can be maybe a little over controlling it's their baby. Yes, it's one thing to say mistakes are okay. It's one thing to lay a lot of the groundwork that you've been talking about today and then not want to give up the control. How do you advise executive leaders? I would say especially founders, to actually put this in play, to put in the boundaries and not micromanage. I think that is a difficult thing for founders to do having worked with more than a few, what's your advice to someone who really does want to let go of some of the control but is terrified to do so?

Sheri Jones:

There are three big things that I talk about. We've already been discussing the power of boundaries. It doesn't just stop there. So the second part is making sure that other voices are heard and that if you are asking for feedback, that you create a feedback loop, that you incorporate that into the process of building the company or helping the company grow. I think that's critical because one thing that I've observed over the years is that oftentimes the decision makers or the C-suite or the people in the corner office, they are three levels beyond the person that's closest to the customer, the user, the patient, whatever it might be. So they're not seeing the problems and the potential solutions. The second part is critical, which is making sure that people are empowered and know where they can experiment and try things right on the front lines, and that happens every day, and it's amazing.

I was just in a meeting with a group of architects. The person that was right on the front lines was bringing up ideas that everyone else in the room hadn't even heard of before. So making sure that those on the front lines are part of it so they can provide that feedback and that there is a way to listen to them. And then the final is I talk about taking more shots, but more importantly is thinking about what's the shot that only you can take When you find the shot that only you can take because of your background of what you're offering, of what the company is, that's when you will see growth. That's when you're going to see those breakthroughs to be able to determine the shot that only you can take. Sometimes it takes making a variety of different shots and having focus on it. I

Anita Brick:

Think that's a great answer. I don't think it answered my question though, but it was a great answer. Anyway, I really liked what you said and I want to ask you one sub-question and then come back to the original one. Sure,

Sheri Jones:

Yeah.

Anita Brick:

Can you share your experience at the Apple Genius Bar? I thought that was really great and I think it really exemplifies what you were just talking about.

Sheri Jones:

Sure, absolutely. So not too long ago, I had bought a new laptop. A small little crack had formed in it, and I think that the laptop was about one month old, and I had it in a nice caring case, no reason why it should happen, so I went over to the Apple store to the Genius Bar, and I met with the individual who was going to be there to help me and look at my product. He went through a diagnostics and he said, well, there are a couple things that could have caused this, and I could send this out and it would cost I think seven or $800 to fix it. However, he came up with another solution that cost me nothing. He was empowered by Apple to look at those two ways to solve this problem, and he chose the one that costs me no money.

I sat there stunned because we've all been in those situations where there are such rigid rules where the person who is closest to the customer who's going to have an impact on that loyalty, on the connection they make and how they feel about your brand and the customer loyalty over a long period of time has no voice in providing a solution, whereas in this case, he did. He sent out my laptop quickly, I got it back, and the whole thing cost me nothing. I was so surprised by it, and I was writing the book at the time that I had included in the book.

Anita Brick:

I thought it was a great example because he knew deeply what the options were, and that was really good. Okay, so let's come back to the founder who doesn't want to give up control? What is a way, a step that someone can take or maybe it's a board member who is advising the founder to take where it won't be so scary, perhaps just to throw it out there, does it have anything to do with the founder being okay with making a mistake or is there something else?

Sheri Jones:

Part of it is the risk capacity is making decisions not based on emotions, which is so hard for all of us and is important part of being in business is having a human connection, absolutely, but how can we pull in more of data points into this? That's a component of it. I've definitely noticed founders that have a, not just risk tolerance, but that, and one of the questions came was like, we have to try these different things. Bringing in a framework around where are the areas that we can rush, right? And those can be in pilots. How can we take your enthusiasm and your energy and your excitement around this, but also pair it with your capacity? How can we look at two different areas and give you the opportunity to try different things, but within a framework that ensures that you're going to see that growth, but you're going to learn and you're going to do it in a way that is sustainable?

One of the things that I hear all the time, they will say, we need to improve customer service. We need to improve this product, and that doesn't provide enough clarity. I think about what if you made it more specific around what it is that you want to do around this? One question you could say is, if we were starting from scratch today, would we set the same boundary or has it moved? Another thing you could say is, have we set boundaries and are we ignoring them and going back and visiting to make sure every 90 days, why don't we revisit our three core constraints or our purpose and ask whether we are still serving them? So those are just some questions that could bring that founder back into that growth mode and not just that scattered mode.

Anita Brick:

That's really good because what that does by giving away some of the control, when people answer those questions, the questions actually give the founder more control and choices. That's actually very good, cherry. That's really good. Okay. What's a question you were hoping I would ask you that I haven't asked you so far?

Sheri Jones:

Well, one thing we haven't touched upon is around creativity, around boundaries, because a lot of people think that creativity works in a space where there are no boundaries. How have I experienced this, a creative side in my own life, and how do I bring that back to the business world, to startups, to companies? That was one idea that I thought,

Anita Brick:

And that would be a great question to answer.

Sheri Jones:

Okay, so as you mentioned in my introduction, when I am not serving thousands of people or writing books or giving keynotes, I pick up my camera and I travel to the remote places on earth. So I've been everywhere from the Arctic to Antarctica to Africa. I've had success in failure in all these different places, but I often share the failure story that I had up in the Arctic and then end it with the success story in Antarctica. I went up to the Arctic to photograph polar bears, and there was a moment when I was on the northern most boat in the world and it was minus 40 degrees. We are there to photograph a polar bear. I'm there with another group, a group of photographers, and the moment came, the polar bear walked up to our ship, which is parked up in the pack ice north of Norway, and I got paralyzed with indecision.

I had brought every camera, every lens, everything I owned, and I started second guessing everything and started thinking, should I stand here or here or use this camera? And I ended up missing the shot. A few days later, I had another chan, not with a polar bear, but with a walrus, a mom, walrus with this pup sitting on this piece of ice and I thought, redemption, I'm going to go down there and I'm going to get my shot. But I hadn't thought through what paralyzed me before and ended up doing the same thing. I was trying every angle and every lens and every camera, but there was another photographer on the ship. She had the same constraints. I had the cold and the lenses, except for the first day she got a gash in her leg and she was restricted. She couldn't climb down the icy ladder and she had to stay in one spot at the top of the boat.

She also couldn't carry a heavy lens or stand very long. Instead of being paralyzed by those constraints, she asked one important question, what can I do with what I have? And that question combined with the fact that she's also a great photographer meant that she got this shot of the trip, she captured this amazing photo. When I got back from this trip, I just couldn't stop thinking about that, about why I had everything and missed the shot. She had more constraints and she captured her shot. That idea, even whether you're in the creatively trying to create something new, write a book, paint a picture, or take a photograph, or you're in business, how they actually enable you to do more rather than to do less, and it provides you with better focus. If we have time, I just want to share with you my success story. Please

Anita Brick:

Go for it.

Sheri Jones:

Okay. I went to the other end of the earth. I went to Antarctica and was photographing the penguins and the seals and the birds. On the final day, we had this unbelievable moment. The ship captain had discovered that there were more than a dozen humpback whales off the side of the ship, and so myself and the other photographers, there were more than 30 of us. We got in these little zodiac boats and we went into the water with the whales, and the whales were doing this feeding thing where they swim in circles and create a bubble net, and it brings the krill, the fish up to the surface. One photographer had a drone, and so from the 30,000 foot level as we call it, it looks spectacular, but my view from the boat was a mess. There were always boats and other people and big brown blobs that was a whale in each shot.

While I'm sitting there taking photo after photo, I pause and I thought about what boundaries could I put in place here? How can I give myself more focus? I'm not going to photograph anything with another person or a boat or a big brown blob right in front of me. And so that made me look all around and way in the distance, I saw one lone whale. The other photographers in the boat looked at what I was doing and they said, what are you doing, Sherry? You're missing this shot. But I thought, well, everybody's getting this shot. What am I really missing if everyone's focused on it? And second, I don't like what I see, so I took the risk and I didn't think the risk was big because it was going to be captured by somebody else, and I photographed that other lone whale. Eventually, they swam away and we all got back onto the ship, and as everybody's going through their images, I keep hearing people say, no, it's not there. It's not the shot. And then I saw my shot that time, I caught the shot at the trip, and it was the shot that only I could take because I knew my risk capacity because I had set boundaries and because I was willing to look around and look at what other people were overlooking do around boundaries, around risk, capacity, and about taking the shot. It's so critical in all aspects of our lives. I

Anita Brick:

Totally agree. Do you have time for one more question?

Sheri Jones:

Sure.

Anita Brick:

Okay. What are the three top things that you would advise individuals to do to create powerful boundaries?

Sheri Jones:

One of the things that I would suggest to do is to narrow the question instead of think outside the box. Think next time you're in a brainstorming meeting or you're just on your own and you're thinking about, how do I solve the problem? Think about ways that you could narrow it. For example, instead of give us all of your ideas, think about what is the best idea for improving X that could be implemented in 90 days with no additional budget. That narrowing of the idea can help you think faster and think of more solutions rather than staring at a blank page and trying to come up with 20 new ideas. Another thing that I talk about is making sure that you're very clear on where you can take risks and where you can, and thinking about impact and feasibility, right? Because we come up with big ideas, but what is the feasibility about them and what's the impact that they're going to have? Finally, I'd say, think about saying, putting on your calendar at the beginning of the year. These four times a year, we're going to go back and we're going to look at how we evaluate new ideas. Have the boundaries change? Can we do more? Are we taking enough risks? We talk about doing it, but we rarely do it, which is that quarterly review of our process and where we need to make change. I

Anita Brick:

Love that it is practical, actionable, and I think what you're suggesting is feasible for just about everyone. As is the book. Thank you again for writing The Unexpected Power of Boundaries. When I saw the title, I'm thinking, I don't know, but I'm glad I was open-minded because it was really powerful and I learned a lot, so thank you for that too.

Sheri Jones:

Thank you, Anita. I appreciate it. It's such a pleasure to be on this podcast.

Anita Brick:

Well, I'm really glad you had time and you made effort, and Lori made the connection for us, so all good. Have a good one, and thanks again.

Sheri Jones:

My pleasure.

Anita Brick:

Thank you all for listening. This is Anita Brick with Career Cast at Chicago Booth. Keep advancing.