From Overdose to CEO

Anita Brick:

Hi, this is Anita Brick and welcome to CareerCast at Chicago Booth to help you advance in your career today we are excited. I am really excited to be speaking with Kerry Siggins. She is the CEO of Stone Age, an ESOP and leading manufacturer of industrial cleaning equipment. It's also one of Outside Magazine's top 100 companies to work for. In 2021, she was honored by Industry Era Magazine as one of the top 10 most influential CEOs. Wow, that's really a big deal. And in 23, she was named Entrepreneur of the Year for the Mountain West Region by EY as well as CEO of the Year by Colorado Biz. She sits on boards of several companies and is a member of the Young President's Organization as many of us know it as YPO. She is regularly invited to speak and deliver a keynote on several business and leadership topics, is an active blogger and contributor to Forbes and hosts an amazing podcast, Reflect Forward.

She is also the author of Ownership Mindset, a handbook for transforming your life and leadership and her latest book, which we're going to talk about today, Talk with Trust. Kerry, thank you so much for making time for us. I know you're very busy and oh my gosh, I'm just really excited to be able to speak to you today.

Kerry Siggins:

Oh, thank you. I'm so glad to be here. This is going to be a fabulous conversation.

Anita Brick:

I like that. And I'm going to pretend that you and I are sitting at our favorite cafe having whatever beverage we would have in the morning, which is when we're speaking. So first of all, I'd like to ask you a question. Your approach to feedback focuses on changing internally rather than wanting external circumstances or people to change. How have you made this work in a world where most people just defer blame to the situation or the other person?

Kerry Siggins:

Because I've realized that I have absolutely no control over anybody else, even as much as I would like to. I don't. So when I realize that all I can do is be my very best, show up with authenticity, give kind, helpful, direct feedback, I'm doing my part and I have to let go of the outcome because the other person is having their experience when you realize all I can do is do my very best and control how I show up, it relieves a little bit of the pressure for always feeling like you have to own somebody else's feelings, somebody else's reaction because you don't. You have no control over that. That is the premise of the ownership mindset. I am responsible for me. It's a very, very powerful mindset shift when you realize I can't control the outcome, but I can decide how I'm going to show up.

And that is how you shift from blame to empowerment, self-empowerment, empowerment as I like to call it, because you're focusing on what you can do.

Anita Brick:

Okay. So an MBA student wants us to dig a little deeper and she said, "What was a key experience that gave you the courage to give feedback from a place of strength and agency rather than fear?"

Kerry Siggins:

If I am just being brutally honest, almost anytime I have to give feedback, I still get this little bit of the fight or flight syndrome because I know I'm doing something that's important. I am going to impact this person's life, especially if I'm giving critical feedback. Because I am a recovering people pleaser, I still get that little bit of twinge of fear, but I always just break through with a breath and go, "What I am doing is I am being honest and I am providing clarity." And as a leader, that is your number one job is to provide clarity even if it means having a difficult conversation. So when I lean into if I don't provide clarity, I'm not being a good leader. I have to be able to give this feedback. Even though I have given lots and lots of feedback and I'm much, much better at it, it's not always easy for me.

So I don't want to just say the fear goes away just because you practice. But I'll give you a recent example. I had to unfortunately let go a person on my team just this week. I didn't want to do it because I care very deeply about this person and I wanted them to succeed so badly, but the reality was is there was just a mismatch in capability and what the company needed. And my job again is to provide clarity and to make the best decisions for the company. But I also have to keep my humanity because I care very much about this person. As I was preparing for it, I use my shares model and I think about what is the outcome that I want? I want this person to walk away feeling as good as they possibly can, even though this is a very difficult conversation and how am I going to prepare myself to help achieve that outcome?

And when you go through the shares model, it helps you get over that fear and be prepared to be able to lean into that conversation. So now I didn't walk in there going like, "Oh, this is going to be so easy and I'm going to breeze right through it. " No, that I felt the sense of gravity and I knew how impactful this was and I knew it was going to be a difficult conversation. And I still knew that it was my job to provide her with clarity and kindness and compassion even while I was delivering a hard message.

Anita Brick:

Okay. So here's another MBA student who had the opposite experience and he said, "I have a new manager. I recently received what I was told was constructive feedback, but it was all negative. There was no positive feedback at all. And I walked away depleted, discouraged, and unmotivated. What advice would you have on how to benefit even from such harsh feedback?

Kerry Siggins:

It's all in your mindset. I always say don't let the message be lost in the delivery. I can totally understand why it is so demoralizing to get only critical feedback. But here's the thing, we all have a choice in what we want to do with it. Just because you got tough feedback, it doesn't mean that it's actually about who you are as a person. It just might mean that you have some things to work on. So whenever I've received critical feedback, which I have, and because I'm a people pleaser, it hurts because I want to do a good job. I would say, how do I look at this as information? This is purely information that I can choose to either own or not. If I choose to own it, how am I going to grow from it? If I choose not to own some of it, how am I going to grow from that or not?

And just dissect it kind of like a scientist. Okay, I was told these three things. What information am I receiving here? How can I use this to make me a better person? In my experience, these moments like this, where you feel demoralized, where you feel crushed, where it's a really difficult time, these are the moments that are pivotal in your life if you choose to lean into that feedback and say, okay, there's something that I can do here. I'm not going to take it personally and I'm going to almost make it like a game to really improve on these things. You might have a manager who's never going to give you positive feedback. In fact, there are unfortunately managers out there who believe that they shouldn't give positive feedback. That is only critical because why would I give you a pat on the shoulder for doing your job?

I've literally heard people say that, which of course is completely invalid and really not a smart way to lead, but you might have a manager like that, but you can still choose to grow from that by looking at that tough feedback as purely information and deciding what pieces of you're going to own and how you're going to take action. The only way to move through something like this, feedback that hurts is to move through it. If you deny it, if you blame, if you turn into that victim mentality, then you are missing on a valid and important opportunity to really grow. So it's all about flipping that mindset. How are you going to look at this? Are you going to look at it as a way to demoralize and feel beat down, or are you going to look at it as a way to grow?

We all get to tell ourselves a story about anything that happens to us. We literally are telling ourselves a story of this is good or this is bad, and we actually don't know if it's good or bad in the moment. Everything that I would label bad in my life has actually been one of the best things that have happened to me because it forced me to grow. So that's what I would tell this student. Look at the feedback as information and use it to propel yourself forward.

Anita Brick:

Okay. So here is someone, actually an alum. She wants to take an approach that keeps the other person in mind. And she said, "I know as a leader, I need to be in the right frame of mind to deliver constructive feedback. What are a few things I should look for as signs the other person is in the mindset to receive it? "

Kerry Siggins:

There's all kinds of cues that you can do, like look for, look at body language. But here's the reality is that whenever you sit down to deliver critical feedback, even if a person is in the mindset to be able to hear from it, depending on who they are, they could switch in a moment. You have no control over that. A lot of times we let ourselves off the hook because we're waiting for the right time for this person to be able to hear this feedback. So let's talk about when you shouldn't give feedback when you know that it's not going to land well if it's in the moment and that moment is emotionally charged. You never want to give feedback in that moment because there's no way that person is going to be in the mindset to be able to hear it. So you might need to give it a little bit of space, but the issue of giving it too much space is then it loses its impact.

It's emotionally charged and that person is upset in that moment. Give it 24 hours. And then I would circle back and I would say to that person, I really would like to talk about what happened yesterday or in this situation, but I want to make sure that you are ready to have this conversation. Is now a good time? You can ask because sometimes you have to deliver feedback even if that person isn't 100% ready to hear it because it's important for them to understand the gravity of the situation. But you can always ask and that's always better than trying to assume that you're reading cues correctly, that you're reading body language correctly, moods correctly. We humans are really bad at interpreting what other people are thinking. We think that we know, but we don't really. In the moment, pause, let things calm down. And then when you're ready to circle back, I would say, don't let it go longer than 24 hours.

I would just ask the person, are you ready to have this conversation? And if they say no, respect that, but then say, okay, by the end of the day, I'd like to sit down, or let's schedule a meeting for 8: AM tomorrow so that they know that there's accountability to have this conversation and that they need to prepare themselves to show up.

Anita Brick:

I like that a lot. I think that there's also an element of psychological safety. And another boothy said, how would you advise a team leader who is not a senior leader to move their team culture where feedback historically has not been a positive experience into one that is more useful, kind, and productive?

Kerry Siggins:

I would tell that manager to read my book, Talk with Trust, because that is exactly what I wrote this book for, to help leaders be able to have these crucial conversations from the framework of trust. That's really what this book is about. It's about trust and it's through the lens of feedback, of having crucial conversations. You can always start by using the shares model by preparing yourself to deliver feedback in a way that is kind, helpful, yet direct. If I was coaching this manager who struggled giving feedback, I would have them walk through the shares model and then I would have them write down what they want to say when they give feedback. And then I would say, okay, how is this kind? You can be giving critical feedback and still be kind. We're just human beings who are all trying to figure things out.

How is this helpful? Helpful feedback means that there are examples of helping that person grow, not just being critical. And how is this direct? Are you beating around the bush? Are you softening it? Then go back and fine tune from each of those lenses. Kind, helpful, direct. And preparing in that way will help you deliver feedback in a way that people can hear it and that will build trust.

Anita Brick:

All right. So there can be psychological safety or lack of it when a leader says they want feedback, but it doesn't work out that way. So here is someone who actually is an alum and he said, "I have been fortunate to have success in my career from the very beginning. I have been promoted in a global corporation and at a top consulting firm. Feedback flowed back and forth. Then I became chief of staff for a CEO who asked for feedback and then with exact punishment if you shared anything that was the least bit negative. What can I learn from this situation and from the way this CEO operates?

Kerry Siggins:

The first thing is how to not ever be a leader like that. Sometimes we learn the most. In fact, probably more often do we learn the most from those people who we don't want to be like? The biggest takeaway from that is how do I make sure I never do this to people? I have the mindset of I want to be the easiest person in the company to give feedback to, because I know in my position as CEO, it's hard. There is a power dynamic. As much as I try to minimize that, it's like, oh God, I got to go give the CEO feedback she's asking for it. Do I tell her the truth? So my goal is to be the easiest person in the room to give feedback to, but that's because I've had bosses who weren't, who did punish, who did get defensive, who did get upset.

I had a boss who I gave feedback to who asked me for feedback and he didn't talk to me for two weeks and it's like, oh, I'm not going to do that again. That's the biggest takeaway from that is how do you not do that? And the second thing is that you have to really ask yourself, is this the type of person I want to work for? An executive who can't take feedback, especially as CEO, that is absolutely going to trickle through the entire organization. A lot of people are saying, I can't leave this job. Hat do I do? I have to go find another one. But here's the thing, if you are in an environment that you do not have psychological safety, especially as a chief of staff, which that is just such a critical component of your job is being able to speak the truth, then you probably have to go look for something that is different.

Now, the other thing that you could do in that situation is, and this takes some risk as well because obviously if the CEO was really defensive and negative and punished, you could bring it up and say, "Hey, I feel like I didn't deliver that feedback well in a way that could be heard, especially when you ask me for it. Is there something that I can do better next time when I'm delivering feedback?" And then that way you're owning it and you're asking for feedback on your feedback. But you have to decide what that's going to feel like depending on that situation. But that's probably what I would do. When I've made people mad with my feedback, I've absolutely came back and said, "Hey, I know that didn't land well. Is there a better way for me to deliver feedback to you? " And a lot of times I get feedback on my feedback and I said something that unintentionally triggered that person.

And now that I know what that trigger is, I can avoid it. That's kind of working backwards from the extreme to how do I handle that in the moment with this person?

Anita Brick:

Okay, that is really good. Sometimes if someone is maybe a manager for the first time, although you would think that a CEO wouldn't be a manager for the first time, but I love the idea of asking for feedback around the feedback. Now they may not give it, but at least if you ask, then you feel like you've taken responsibility and can move from there. I do think that new managers don't get the training, and here is someone who's a new manager and wants you to give them some advice around it. I'm a new manager for the very first time. How would you advise someone like me to create frictionless questions, things that are observations, not indictments of what's wrong with the other person?

Kerry Siggins:

Okay. I would first talk about the framing, what's wrong with the other person. Going in with that mindset right there is even if you don't say those exact words, that energy is going to be out there. We all just have a different way of showing up in the world and we all have a different experience. We're all experiencing our own reality and none of them are unique. Unfortunately, we think that everybody sees it our way. As you're going through thinking about, okay, what's wrong with this person and I'm here to fix it, you are not. That is not your job as a new manager. Your new job as a manager is to be able to give factual observations about what is happening and share the impact that these behaviors or actions are having on the team or your relationship or the work, whatever it is.

You never want to make it personal. And if you're going and saying this is something that's wrong with you, it is going to devolve. So instead you use this shares model to think about the outcome that you want, have your facts and feelings ready. This is so key. If you just have facts like this is what happened, it feels cold. But if you have your feelings and this is how it impacted me, this is how it impacted the team, the person gets the full picture, but never make it about a personality. Always make it about the behavior. So for example, let's just take an easy thing. Somebody's always late for meetings, which happens all the time and it's very annoying. I'm one of those people who's always late for meetings because I'm running from back to back to back to back, but it's disrupting the team.

So you could say observable, "Hey, I noticed that you're consistently five minutes late for meetings, five to 10 minutes late for meetings, and the impact on the team is that it disrupts. We have to circle back and fill you in on what we've discussed, or we're waiting for you, which derails the agenda. I want to make sure that you are really working well with the team and that this is working effectively. What's going on? " That is how you deliver that feedback. You have your facts and your feelings ready, then you ask a question, "What's going on? " But if you just come in here and just say, "You know what? You're always late. It is disrespectful. You not respect the team and me. " That is a judgment on character and that is going to shut things down. I would say use the shares model, have your facts and feelings ready, and then ask a couple questions and never make it about the person.

Always talk about the behavior. You might get into the person as you dive deeper or as the relationship builds, but it's always best to just start with describing the behavior rather than a personality trait or a character trait. And

Anita Brick:

I think it helps to realize that it may not fall well with the other person. There is an alum who asks, "I wish that a better relationship could come from feedback. I have never experienced that either as the giver of feedback or the receiver of feedback. Any insight about what I might do differently or where I could start to make sure that I'm building the relationship rather than destroying it. "

Kerry Siggins:

What I love about a story in the book, actually, I interview Stonage's company coach. She talks about how you have no control of the person who is receiving the feedback. Giving feedback is almost less about you and more about how that person chooses to handle it. Now, you can either do it well or do it poorly and that can affect the outcome, but a person who is open to feedback can take really poorly delivered feedback and turn it into something powerful. I once had one of my direct reports, he was basically like my COO, he in a moment of anger, told me that I was really hard to work for, that I was erratic, not disruptive, and that I was the problem with the company. It was the toughest piece of feedback I had ever heard and I wanted to tell him to get out of my office and never come back.

He was fired, but I didn't. I just said, "I need to process what you've said and let's circle back in the morning." And it was incredibly hurtful. I choose to own the feedback that I get. How do I find the truth in what's being said? I turned it into one of the most pivotal moments in my career because I could say, "All right, I can see how maybe the way I'm showing up could feel erratic versus disruptive. How do I fix that? How do I hold myself accountable? How do I be cool, calm, and collected?" And it changed my leadership style. So poorly delivered feedback can be taken well depending on that person. And you can also have feedback that is perfect. Yo follow everything in the shares model, but because that person is defensive because they haven't dealt with their own baggage, their own stuff, they might take it the wrong way.

So you have to let go of feeling like you're in control of that outcome. All you can do is prepare yourself as best as possible. If you want to deliver really tough feedback in a way that builds the relationship, the shares model is so powerful because it helps you prepare, it helps you stay grounded, and it helps you stay in dialogue. When people take feedback poorly is that they feel like they're just getting attacked and there's no room to have a dialogue about what's going on. The person doesn't ask questions. So I would tell this person, use the shares model, ask questions. Don't just assume. Okay, hey, I'm delivering this tough feedback. I know this is hard to hear. I'm telling you this because I care about you. Now tell me what you think. How are you experiencing this? Let's talk about it. And oftentimes it will go better, much better.

Now on the other side, the student said a feedback that I've gotten has damaged relationships too. That's on you. You can choose to say this damages the relationship because I'm mad at this person for giving me this feedback, or this person delivered this feedback really poorly, or I don't believe this feedback. Those are all stories you can tell yourself, but you do not have to choose to look at it that way. You can do what I did in that moment of getting the toughest feedback I've ever heard in my life. I went home and cried for a couple of hours and thought, I'm not cut out to be a CEO. And then you know what? I put on my big girl pants and I said, how can I own this? And how do I make this into a growth opportunity? And how do I become better because of this?

It was pivotal. I atribute that feedback to the best piece of feedback I ever got in my life, even though it was crushing. I still have a relationship with that person. He left the company, but we are still friends and I thank him all the time for giving me that feedback because it made me a better leader, even though it was so painful in the moment. I

Anita Brick:

Like that a lot. And the alum who said it has a fair amount of experience, but clearly could be that questions are missing. It could be that the psychological safety is missing. Yo made a very, very good point. Ask yourself, what story have you created in your mind about the other person? Because that definitely influences whether you believe that they're worthy of good feedback or you just discount them. And I think that that happens sometimes. So I apreciate that. And it must have been very difficult for you not to discount the feedback and the person when you were given that feedback, which was really at the bone. Yeah,

Kerry Siggins:

It was triggering. Again, it goes back to my first book, The Ownership Mindset. I am responsible for everything that happens in my life for how I show up. I am responsible for how I choose to react to this. And because I so believe in the power of the ownership mindset, I could have discounted it. I could have blamed him. I could have said it was X, Y, Z, all of these excuses why, and not grown from it and not become a better leader for it. Choosing to own what people tell you, even if it doesn't feel true, it's still a perception. And acknowledging that person's perception of you is really important to that relationship. Okay, wow, that is not how I see it, but thank you for sharing how you see it. Let's talk about that. Ask some questions, understand it a little bit better.You might not ever change that person's mind.

They might not like you. They might not ever see it your way, and that's okay. Our goal isn't to make everybody agree, but it is to understand feedback is simply information. We turn it into a story that is good or bad, and that is what causes us to get defensive. We want to protect ourselves and we go into that protect and defend mode. And when we do that, we just miss the gift. And that feedback, it hurt, it stung, but it was a true gift. And if I can make it through feedback like that, I can make it through anything. And if you take that mindset, well, how am I going to grow from this? You can turn feedback into something really powerful.

Anita Brick:

Well, clearly, if you went home and cried for hours, it must have been really harsh. And at the same time, the question is some people can't do this or they don't feel they can do this. They find the value and they actually use it as fuel. And it sounds like that's exactly what you did.

Kerry Siggins:

Yeah, it hurt. Here's what I did. Here was my mindset. Take the good from the feedback and let the rest go. He was angry. He was lashing out at me. And before, the next morning when we circled back, he explained to me why he was hurt by something I said, and I didn't realize that. I didn't realize I had hurt him in the moment. So I didn't even have that piece of information while I was processing that night. But my matra as I was going through it was take the good from the feedback and let the rest go. And I decided to focus on two things, the word erratic. And I could see how sometimes my passion and I love new ideas. And at that time in my career, I had this fear of missing out. And so I always wanted to say yes to opportunities instead of stay focused on our strategy.

And I could see how some people would interpret that as changing directions all the time. I decided that that was going to change. I never wanted to be called erratic again, whether it was true or not. I could still own it. And so that's when I said, "Cool, calm, and collected is my mantra." I will tell you, freaking out never makes anything better. And since I have adopted my cool, calm, and collected mantra, I am such a much better leader. And the second thing I did was he had told me, "People don't know where we're going, and that's why it feels erratic." And I realized that I wasn't setting the vision with just crystal clarity, and that was really important. And so I sat down and I wrote down, "This is what the future looks like. " And I shared it with all of my employees and I helped them connect the dots from the decisions I was making today to how it was going to impact us five years from now.

And that cleared up so many things. And if he wouldn't have shared that with me, I wouldn't have done those two things. And now there's almost nothing that upsets me. I can still get passionate about something, but I just handle everything with grace, even really hard stuff, and that's so much better for me and the team. And the vision is so clear to all my employees. It changed the way I lead. It changed the trajectory of the company. And if he wouldn't subset it, even in a moment of anger, I would not have benefited from it. But I only benefited from it because I chose to take the good from the feedback and I let all the rest of the noise go. I didn't worry about the rest of it. I just focused on those two things.

Anita Brick:

I think that makes a huge, huge difference. Do you have time for a couple more questions?

Kerry Siggins:

I do, yes.

Anita Brick:

All right. So here's something I'm actually curious about too. The idea of feed forward feels a little bit like a mind game. Can you please share with me this actually student, how you've seen this work in a real company like yours?

Kerry Siggins:

Yeah, feed forward is a very, very powerful way to frame feedback. That is using it to move people forward. So a lot of times feedback is what we call moving away. I need you to stop doing this. That can be effective. But most people are more likely to grab onto feedback when it says, "Hey, when you do this, this is what makes you really successful." You can say the same thing. Let's say a person's having a performance issue and you can say, "When you do this, it's causing these issues. Here's the negative impact on the team." And sometimes that's warranted, but you could also twist it using feed forward and that is saying, "Hey, when you do these things, when you are dialed in and you are showing up on time and you are meeting your deadlines and you are showing up with a smile on your face, this is the positive impact on the team and you nail it.

You more likely going to see a behavior change from the feed forward, helping people move towards something rather than away from something. Sometimes that doesn't work and you have to, as a manager, as a leader, be discerning on when do you use feedback and when do you use feed forward? I will tell you that you're going to get more out of people when you say, yes, do more of this. That was fantastic than you are when you get, no, that was wrong. Stop doing that. And that's the premise of feed forward.

Anita Brick:

I love it. I think it's great. All right, so I'm going to ask you a question as our final question for now, but if you have another one that you want to answer that I didn't ask, you can certainly pop in. But here's the question. What are three things that you would advise someone to do, even starting today, to increase their success and happiness by moving from criticism to connection?

Kerry Siggins:

Okay, that is a fabulous question. I'm going to take this in the internal, the way that we can control ourselves first, and then I'll talk about how we do that with our teams. First and foremost, our brains, this is neurology, neuroplasticity, quantum physics. Our brains are constantly filtering out all kinds of things. We can't take in all of the inputs. How we show up in the world, what our mindset is, the words that we say, the thoughts that we think, our brain is going, okay, I'm going to look for things to confirm that. So if you are a person who is highly critical or negative, I would start by saying I'm going to look for the positive things in there in the world. One way that I advise people to do this, like pessimists on my team who want to develop more of an optimistic mindset is every morning start by saying, these three things are going to happen today.

These three great things are going to happen today. Some stranger is going to smile at me. I'm going to get recognized for a job well done. I'm going to have a positive interaction with my coworkers. Do that every morning and you will start to rewire your brain to look for that connection, to look for those positive things rather than the critical things. There are absolutely things that you can do to rewire your brain and that's really an easy one one, you do it every morning, don't look on your phone, just wake up and say, "These three great things are going to happen to me today," and be specific and then your brain will show them to you and then go like, "Yeah, se, that happened," and you will start to change it. The second thing is that we get to tell ourselves a story about any experience and we can have a million different stories about an interaction.

If you feel like there is criticism that is coming up, whether that's you being critical of somebody else or somebody being critical of you, decide yourself that you're going to tell yourself a positive story about it. I'm going to use this to deepen my connection with somebody and change that story. In the ownership mindset, I write about this very specific thing and I say, write down three different stories that it could be rather than the critical negative one you're telling yourself. Write it down. It could be this positive thing, this positive thing, this positive thing, and that helps you shift it that way. If you are a manager who tends to lead with criticism but wants to build connection, use the shares model. It will help you figure out how to have interactions with people that are kind, helpful and direct. And when people know that you care about them, even when you're delivering maybe constructive criticism, they will be more likely to build that connection because they know you're doing it from a place of care rather than criticism.

Prepare yourself, be thoughtful about it. Do the exercise of how is this kind? How is this helpful? How is this direct? And what is the outcome that I want? And that the outcome should be to build a deeper connection with this person. You will have a better conversation. It might not be perfect, but you will have a better conversation.

Anita Brick:

That's great. I love what you're doing and you are the real deal. I know that you've had things in your life that were challenging and clearly you take feedback, whether it comes from within you or within other people and you keep elevating your life, which is a great example for all of us. Well,

Kerry Siggins:

Thank you.

Anita Brick:

Anything else? I don't want to leave you with any burning questions.

Kerry Siggins:

Oh no, I think this is really good. Maybe I'll just want to say one thing. The conversations that we are avoiding are often more about ourselves than the other person. And I think that that's a really interesting thing to explore. We often don't want to have a conversation we say because we don't want to hurt this person's feelings, but really what we want to do is we want to avoid the consequences, the perceived consequences of this decision. We don't want to be seen as the person who fires somebody, who hurts somebody, who has to deliver this tough feedback. It is equally as important to understand what are you avoiding and how are you making this feedback about yourself as well as preparing to be able to deliver feedback in a way that the person that you are talking to can hear. Oftentimes we put it all on the other person, but really we're avoiding it because we don't want to feel a certain way.

And that's a really powerful piece of awareness that you can have with why do we avoid having tough conversations?

Anita Brick:

It's not easy, but it's brilliant. So you can experiment, right? You can experiment with these when the stakes are lower and kind of build the muscle there.

Kerry Siggins:

Exactly.

Anita Brick:

All right. Thank you so much. This was great and keep doing the work you're doing. I know you will because every time you do, you expand your life.

Kerry Siggins:

That's right. Thank you so much for having me, Anita. This was a fabulous conversation.

Anita Brick:

I'm so glad. Thanks again. And thank you all for listening. This is Anita Brick with CareerCast at Chicago Booth. Kep advancing.