Amplify Your Impact

Anita Brick (00:07):

Hi, this is Anita Brick and welcome to Career Cast at Chicago Booth to help you advance in your career Today we're delighted. Actually, I am thrilled to be speaking with Goldie Chan. She is a creative keynote speaker, author, and cancer survivor. She has nearly half a million followers and was named the Oprah of LinkedIn by Huffington Press and her creative video channel of nearly a hundred thousand followers won LinkedIn's Top Voice. Goldie also founded Warm Robots, an award-winning social media strategy and creative agency based in LA and was previously a senior contributor at Forbes where she has gotten all kinds of awards for that and many, many other things. She is been featured as a fresh voice in the New York Times CNN Fast Company many more. And Goldie, thank you for writing this very practical, actionable book on a very scary topic. Personal branding is a little bit on the scary side. I know if we look at Booth, we are not predominantly extroverts. Again, thank you for writing the book. Thank you for being here today.

Goldie Chan (01:16):

Thank you so much for having me. Even when starting this book, doing the interviews for this book, I had so many friends and colleagues I reached out to and I said, oh, are you an introvert? I love to interview you for the introvert part of my book. And then people would come back and they'd be like, no, I'm an extrovert. Or I'd be like, I see that you're an extrovert. I love to interview you for the extrovert chapter of my book. And they'd be like, no, I'm an absolute introvert. I think that's so funny because I think a hundred percent if you are an introvert or extrovert or even ambivert, I think it depends on how you define yourself.

Anita Brick (01:51):

Agree. And it was surprising to hear that both Beyonce and Taylor Swift are big time introverts. I think it gives us hope for everyone. I would say that the biggest theme which we'll get to is how do you shift your brand? But before we do, it's very easy to engage in a really impersonal fact-based approach to the world, and I don't believe that that works. No matter how much AI we use, the human connection is really important. So let's start off there. This actually came from an alum and she said, how do you help others connect with you personally based on emotional content and not just the facts of your career or your business because you have really both.

Goldie Chan (02:37):

So I think when I am especially advising, I work with a lot of C-level executives at Fortune 500 companies and folks that are director level above. So really I would say in general leaders, and when I talk to these leaders, they want to weave in part of their personal story into their accomplishments, and that is such a tight rope walk. But I think one of the first places to start is thinking about your brand keywords. So there are two categories that I like to, and I like to do this exercise with all my clients. The exercise is you have three golden keywords, and these keywords are soft keywords and hard keywords. So the soft keywords are adjectives and the hard keywords are nouns. So when you're thinking about soft keywords that might be inquisitive, it might be intelligent, it might be accomplished. There's so many different adjectives that you could use to describe yourself.

(03:31):

And then for nouns, that's whatever your job function is or you would like it to be. So that might be writer, that might be product manager, that might be leader, that might be C-level executive or C-suite. That might be a variety of different words. Brainstorming 20 words in each of the soft and hard categories, and then you choose three keywords total. I like to do two from the soft category and then one from the hard category. So you end up with these three keywords that you can start to filter your brand through, and by thinking about adjectives on top of your brand, that begins to help to humanize your brand. On top of that, I want to also add one other beautiful thing that you can do is you can also always have, I call it a small story, big brand. You can always have a small personal story on you that humanizes you. So I was recently talking with someone and her partner is just this big C-level executive, but what he loves is he loves going onto letterbox and he loves categorizing films. So his thing is that he loves films, especially films, I want to say from the 1950s. So it's a hyper-specific, but the best part of that hyper specificity in what someone would say is his hobby is that that's something that humanizes him. So

(04:56):

Having an interesting hobby is so helpful.

Anita Brick (05:01):

I think people maybe want to make sure that they have the right definition. I was chatting with someone today and he was saying, but I need to have the right definition. Is this the right definition? I'm really cool. Is it your definition? It happened to be f c-suite leadership. And he goes, yeah, it is my definition. I said, then it's the right definition because otherwise you become someone you don't want to be. I love the fact that you're saying two things from that one, three words out of 40 that you started with, 20 soft, 20 of the hard choose two of the soft, one of the hard. And it can evolve too, correct?

Goldie Chan (05:40):

Yes. And of course it evolves over time just as we evolve over time and we have different career trajectories. I was just speaking with someone, he advises leaders who are at their inflection points and what a beautiful business to have and also what a beautiful way to think about someone's brand. So many leaders end up at these inflection points, these change moments where they need to rethink what their brand is, or maybe they're working in a completely different industry vertical. Maybe their job role has completely changed from one company to another or even internally at the same company. So I think it is really helpful to be thoughtful and to be agile with the way that you describe yourself, but to make it simpler on yourself, it's helpful to start somewhere. It's helpful to start with a definition first and then change it over time.

Anita Brick (06:38):

I think that's really good. And that actually leads us into the preponderance of the questions we're about changing brands. So the first one came from a student and our students, most of the people listening are working professionals. So they're in the midst of one career and they're often getting an MBA to shift to another career. Love it. And he said, how do you create a personal brand when the person is in the midst of a pivot or a career change and others want to define you by your past?

Goldie Chan (07:09):

So you can't see this because we're doing audio, but I am smiling so hard right now. I love this question. This is such a good question. I love this because I myself went through a bit of a career restart for total external reasons. I was diagnosed with cancer. I'm now a cancer survivor. For me, I had to restart my career really from scratch at that moment in time when I rejoined the workforce and for so many folks who are going through career changes or who have chosen that career change, which is very powerful. So you've chosen to change hopefully your career, you're going through school, you're going through education, and you're going to come out the other side with this degree that will hopefully help you get an even better role or a more aligned role when you're thinking about building your personal brand during that time. It's helpful to be forward thinking. Who do you want to be at the end of this yellow brick road? And I only say brick because Anita, your last name is Brick, and that's what I'm looking at right now. But who do you want to be at the end of this path? Who do you see yourself as? What roles do you see yourself taking? What industry verticals do you want to be working in? And that is the basis of starting your brand. I think a lot about the journey from caterpillar to butterfly, right

(08:31):

In between we have chrysalis. Even when you're in a chrysalis, you know that you are going to eventually become a butterfly. How can you target your brand so that everyone understands that you will emerge as a butterfly at the end of this? Now, this might mean even sharing learning lessons from school that you are learning right now or case studies that are interesting. This might mean even your fellow classmates who are probably quite different than you and maybe also come from different industries and might have nuggets of wisdom. This of course, might also be, once again, thinking about who you want to be, what kind of roles you want to do, what kind of jobs or companies do you want to work at and doing case studies on them or discussing them. It's all about positioning yourself so that you are the butterfly, that there's an expectation that you will become that butterfly and that people can view you as that butterfly. Now,

Anita Brick (09:25):

Very powerful, very important. So sometimes we're making the change and they're people who are not super happy or comfortable with that. And alum said, I've been moving from a technical to a more strategic role in my career. I've been feeling pressured to change and give up my nerdy side that does not feel authentic to me. Any advice on how to pivot and advance without losing myself? Thank you so much.

Goldie Chan (09:51):

I think that this is such a tough one. I spoke at, and I'm not going to say who they are, major, major toy company. And when you think toys, you think playful, joyful, everything is fun, fun, fun. Corporate is a very different

Anita Brick (10:06):

Oh, yes, oh yes.

Goldie Chan (10:07):

Even for toy companies because it's still corporate. Remember I spoke to the women at the organization, I did a woman personal branding talk, and afterwards I had quite a few women come up and say, oh my gosh, I would love to have colored hair. I'm absolutely not allowed to. Or I would love to do this, but I'm absolutely not allowed to. I wish I could tell you do whatever you want. There's no repercussions. That's unfortunately untrue, especially in corporate America. And I think that there are guardrails in place, whether they're good or bad, I'm not going to sign the morality on them. There are guardrails that exist in corporate America, period. That being said, I think that there's still room to express who you are and what you love in a way that's appropriate. I love this person said, I have a nerdy side. I love to express that.

(10:55):

This is sometimes also how I think about social media platforms too. On LinkedIn, maybe one out of every 10 to 20 posts you share something about your nerdy side, you really gently put that into your ecosystem. But maybe if you are also on say Instagram or a TikTok or a Pinterest, et cetera, that you can have more of your personal interests on that platform because that platform is not your work representative online. Really understanding not only the different social media platforms that you are on, but also the different ways that you can frame your brand on those different platforms, I think is so powerful.

Anita Brick (11:40):

I like that a lot. But given that if someone is doing a background check, they're going to check all social media, so we still need to be cognizant of where those guardrails are too. Correct?

Goldie Chan (11:51):

Yes. And I think that, I remember speaking to someone and then they had a throwaway Instagram account. The younger folks call that a Finsta, a fake Instagram account.

Anita Brick (12:02):

Oh, that's funny. That's

Goldie Chan (12:03):

Funny. And it's just a funny term, but on top of that, they have their name on it. If you're going to do an Instagram account that is like that, don't put your full real name on it. That aside, I think once again, it is important to know what those guardrails are at the corporation that you work at, but also understand that there might be some wiggle room within those guardrails. And also once you are in the institution itself, and once you are a leader and say you are in the C-suite at that institution, you are able to bring up potential changes. And I think so many of us forget that, but when we are in a position of power, when we are in a position of influence, especially within corporate America, we are in a position of potential change.

Anita Brick (12:51):

That's true. Any change that we either affect on our own or as a leader has risks involved. And I think it's important to say, am I up for this? And if I am, great, and if I'm not, maybe take a step in between.

Goldie Chan (13:07):

Yes, absolutely. I do think that making sure that you know really what those guardrails are, you should always know what the rules are before you break them.

Anita Brick (13:16):

Oh yeah.

Goldie Chan (13:17):

And knowing very clearly what those rules are before you test the boundaries is always helpful. If you're just getting folks who are just saying, you shouldn't do that, but there's really no rules behind that and it's a cultural thing within the corporation. Once again, if you are in a leadership role, you have the ability to begin to even incrementally change that.

Anita Brick (13:41):

And even if we're not the leader, sometimes it's okay to do something small and test the waters a little bit. But yeah, boundaries are important. Absolutely. Okay, so two other questions related to a change in brand. So here's actually a friend of career cast. I have a solid amount of visibility absolutely essential in most careers these days. The challenge is when I'm asked to present at conferences, it is for topics from my old brand, not the brand I am creating. I'm not invited to speak on topics in my new field. How have you seen individuals create a personal brand and a reputation while making a career pivot? How do you get people to start viewing you as an expert or an expert enough to ask you to present like they had in the past or at least consider you for new things?

Goldie Chan (14:36):

I'll first start with a mini part of that. First question I usually get is, how is a personal brand different than a reputation? So I like to define that is reputation is what people say about you when you're not in the room and your personal brand is who you are in the room, what story do you tell about yourself in that room? Starting from that, what it sounds like for this particular individual, their issue is that they are unsure what their reputation is. It sounds like their reputation is really tied to who they were known as in their previous career and their personal brand. I'm not sure what they're doing right now with it. What you do have control over always is your personal brand. What you don't always have control over is your reputation. However, the good news is your personal brand can influence heavily your reputation.

(15:29):

So one thing that I know introverts and extroverts alike, no one likes to do this. I always say Google yourself, ask Google who you are, right? Or ask whatever search engine that you like, who is this person? And then I know we probably don't want to dive too deeply into ai, but I will say one interesting exercise to do now is ask whatever AI platform that you use. If you do use one, ask them also who you are. Because what's fascinating about AI is AI will aggregate a ton of different outside sources to create an answer, which used to be what the internet did very well. And now it's questionable, unfortunately. So now that onus lands on ai, so I would say first of all, ask who you are. And the reason why you do that is you can then see online who people think you are, and that's how people probably find you, especially if you have a sizable online presence.

(16:26):

Now, once you know who people think you are online, then you can begin to change. And the way that we do that is not by saying, okay, I'm going to do this one thing and it's going to change everything. It is. You build over time your presence as that new entity and that includes a variety of different things. So that can be everything from literally what we're doing right now, which is a podcast where you talk about your area of expertise that can be guest writing for a blog, which is great because that's crawled by search engines and SEO that can be essentially guesting on other folks' platforms. Talking about your new area of expertise, aside from borrowing, I like to say it's borrowing other people's power by guesting on other people's podcasts or being on other people's blogs or even PR being featured in say, Forbes or New York Times or Harvard Business Review, any of those things.

(17:26):

Of course, those PR pieces are also helpful, but on your end, if you don't immediately have access to guesting or being interviewed, what you put out into the universe is what all of these search engines and all of these people who follow you are beginning to see. And I always like to think this, which is a little bit sad to me. For every a hundred pieces of content I put out, people maybe see 10 to 20 pieces maybe. If I'm lucky, that's the amount that you need to put out to start to be recognized as that new person. So while you also might feel like, well, I don't want to flood my audience as long as you're not dropping all a hundred pieces on one day, which I would definitely know. I don't usually recommend a cadence, but that's one cadence I definitely do not recommend.

(18:15):

I think it's helpful that if you think about, okay, I release a hundred pieces of content over say three months over that three month period of time, assume that people maybe start to see 10 to 20 pieces of those content that now relate to your new form of expertise or your new thing. And if at the same time you can also guest on relevant podcasts, you can write for relevant blogs. You can also maybe get an interview or two. I always think also wherever you're located, trying to get local press is a really good and smart initial move. Guesting on any local podcast is also a great initial move. Writing white papers if that's relevant is also a good initial move, et cetera. I think that there's so many different ways that you can begin to put those data points out there. I will give everyone a goal that's listening to this, that's thinking about a pivot or change, which is create your first a hundred data points.

(19:09):

And I know that sounds wildly overwhelming, that sounds like so much, but everything always starts with one. Start with that one data point, and that data point might be a piece of content you create yourself that might be asking a friend if you can guest on their podcast, that might be writing a guest blog for someone else's newsletter or having a quote in someone that might be trying to find local press that can cover you on your area of expertise or industry newsletters that also might be interested in you guesting or writing a sample post. It is all about getting to that 101st data points. And I will say that from experience, this changed my life because I did over 800 daily consecutive videos on LinkedIn.

Anita Brick (19:53):

It's amazing.

Goldie Chan (19:54):

Yeah, I would not wish it on my worst enemy. I do not suggest that as a content plan that is sustainable or necessarily healthy, but I will say that first a hundred videos that I did were so powerful because truly by video 30, and it wasn't by video 10, but by video 30, a few people had seen my videos and by video 100, a lot more people had seen my videos. And by video 365, I was getting asked to speak on LinkedIn, on personal branding, on all those things, and I had been asked to write for Forbes. All of these doors had open in my area of expertise because I had made 365 videos, I had created 365 data points.

Anita Brick (20:42):

That is amazing. You must have had a lot of energy too.

Goldie Chan (20:47):

Yes, I don't have that same energy now, so I'm glad I did that when I did have that energy to do it.

Anita Brick (20:54):

Okay, so here's something that goes along with that. A Boothie said, how do you advise individuals to be heard when the noise is so loud and not burn out?

Goldie Chan (21:04):

It's so easy to burn out these days because we have so much going on in our universe, and I'm sure in our personal lives, everyone I know is at least a little stressed, a little overwhelmed. Whether you're an introvert or extrovert, the way to be heard through all of that noise is not necessarily even to shout louder. I know the impulse is to say, you got to shout loud to be heard through the noise. If you've ever seen powerful speakers, you'll notice that they sometimes speak more quietly than they think they will and which causes you to want to lean in. They might also use pauses really effectively, which means that you have more time for your brain to process what they're saying and it's a little bit more pleasant to listen to. There's a ton of ways that you can be heard without shouting, and I am such a fan of really speaking through the lens also of knowing what you're saying.

(22:01):

So one of the five Cs of personal branding that I believe exists is competence, is that you are an expert in your field, or if you're going to school, of course you're becoming an expert in your field and you're learning the language so that you can message yourself as an expert in your field. Knowing that you are that expert is so helpful because now you can begin to message all of these people with your expertise, and you don't have to do it in a loud way, but what is always helpful is, and I'm going to go back to that a hundred data points, is to do it in an incredibly consistent way. If you can consistently say who you are, people will remember that because I'm sure we've all met people, we've met them at a party or a conference or a meeting or et cetera, and they say, hi, and I'm sorry for all the Gregs out there, but I'm going to use name Greg. Hi, I'm Greg and I do this, this, this, this, this. And by the 10th this,

Anita Brick (23:01):

Oh my gosh,

Goldie Chan (23:02):

You're zoning out. You don't remember what the first this is you maybe if you're lucky, you remember the last this, which honestly probably is not the most important this, right? They probably started with the most important one. If you want to be heard, the noise, it always helps to narrow down. It helps to know if you need somebody to take away one thing about you, they should know that you are a horse trainer and that's where you stop and then you let them soak that in and that's where your conversation starts. From there, you can add on extra, okay, so not only am I horse trainer, but I also work in B2B sales, whatever it is, that is the most important data point that you want them to learn first. That is the one that you should always lead with.

Anita Brick (23:43):

That makes sense to me. Okay, so now let's go a little bit to the opposite end.

Goldie Chan (23:48):

Yes,

Anita Brick (23:48):

Kind of sort of. Here's an alum who has more than two decades of experience, and she said, how does a person be agile enough to change with the times and still retain authenticity?

Goldie Chan (24:03):

I get this question a lot from especially, I don't want to say an age in particular, but from older, I'd say executives and people who are really advanced in their career who know that they're maybe not labeled as fresh, but they want to still be exposed to fresh ideas, fresh thoughts, because if you are being curious, you aren't moving forward. And so I'll bring that word into this conversation. Part of it is there is no end age for curiosity. 

Goldie Chan (24:36):

Oh yeah. And then there's no end age for grace and kindness, and that especially is for yourself. There's no time at which you could stop being curious. And I think everyone respects curiosity because curiosity by nature of itself has a youthful energy to it, but it's not, I think this word is so funny. It's not a cringey sense of youthfulness. It's a thoughtful sense of youthfulness. So I think that having that curiosity and expressing your interest for fresh ideas and novel ways of thinking through curiosity, I think we've all met people who read 50 books maybe closer to 200, 200 books a year, right? To me, that would be an impressive number of books to read in one year.

(25:25):

And they're always reading, they're always curious, they're always learning. And there's a youthfulness and an energy about them that has nothing to do with introversion or extroversion, but has to do with, oh, this person is always learning. So this person is the kind of person I will share my fresh ideas or fresh learnings or interesting things with, because I know they will always be curious, and I'm going to throw another word in here. They're always listening. Listening is so deeply underrated along with curiosity. Both of these are not tactics, but both of these are personality traits that every single one of us could use more of. It seems a little counterintuitive to say this, but it makes us more interesting people if we listen more and listen with intention.

Anita Brick (26:14):

Oh, I totally agree. My aunt was very introverted when she was young, and her mentor used to take her up to New York. They lived outside of Philadelphia, or actually they lived in Philadelphia, and she would go and was very intimidated by the people who are at these gatherings. And her mentor said, do two things, learn how to ask questions, and then listen. And in about three months, maybe she also did it 101 times or whatever her reputation, her personal brand too, but her reputation for sure was as an amazing conversationalist, although she came up with good questions and then she listened. I think that's great advice. Do you have time for a couple more questions before we go? Let's go. Okay. Here's a person who's not quite super comfortable with his new brand. This is also an alum. He had a speech, he got a not so great review from one person, not everybody, one person. And that's what he fixated on. 

Anita Brick (27:15):

His question is, how do you appreciate your new brand when it's not yet? Perfect.

Goldie Chan (27:22):

So first of all, I want to address the one unpleasant comment, and I want to say congratulations because that means you have a point of view. This is what I realized after basically becoming one of the top creators on LinkedIn. You know that you've hit a certain level of success and you have a point of view that's interesting and different is when people disagree with you. So first of all, congratulations on that, but also so many of us are works in progress, even for those of us who think we're done, we're final, we're fixed, we are baked in, we're a clay pot that's been fired and glazed and all those other beautiful things. Now what happens is potentially that clay pot becomes shattered, right? And then we become a mosaic, right? With the shattered pieces. Even when you think that you are absolutely done, you're a complete finished product, you may not be.

(28:13):

And so for someone who knows that they are for sure in the process of your clay being molded at this point, you're still getting ready to get fired. You're not maybe exactly there yet. It is helpful to give yourself a little bit of grace. First of all, be kind to yourself and know that you will get there. And also in the meantime, this is a beautiful time because this is your experimental time. This is when you can try on a couple of different versions of yourself in this moment in your career. I recently spoke with somebody and he helps these, I think I said this before, but he helps individuals who are at an inflection point. And I think that when you are at a change moment, it is so powerful to take a step back during that change moment and say, okay, who do I really want to be at this moment in time? What is going to be helpful feedback for me to hear? And what is going to be simply criticism? Because there is definitely a difference also between someone who is just criticizing you for the sake of they had a bad day and someone who is giving you honest, negative feedback.

Anita Brick (29:14):

Yes, absolutely. Sometimes when your feelings are hurt, it's really hard to tell the difference.

Goldie Chan (29:20):

Yes.

Anita Brick (29:20):

That's why it's good to have people around us who are open to giving us critical feedback. And also if we go too far in that direction, bringing us back with, as you said, with grace.

Goldie Chan (29:31):

With grace always.

Anita Brick (29:32):

This is great. The book was terrific. I read all of it. I gained a lot from it, and it is very in line with the way we like to close career cast each episode, and it's with practical, actionable encouragement, which I think you are masterful at. What are three things that you would advise someone who wants to develop and share a personal brand that they need to do and can start doing right now to expand their credibility, their opportunities? And I'll throw this in and they're fun.

Goldie Chan (30:05):

Okay, so here's the three things. Number one always starts with one. I like to always go back to that. So it always starts with one. One. I know I spoke about this earlier in this podcast, so please go back and listen to it again. In fact, listen to this several times and rate this podcast very highly. It's helpful to start with your three golden keywords. So understanding just the lens in which you see your brand. What are those hard and soft keywords? What are those three keywords for you? So that's number one. Number two, I want you to message five people this week. Whenever you are listening to this podcast, I want you to message five interesting people who are already in your network. So these aren't even cold messages. These are just people that you forgot that you haven't messaged in a while that you'd love to catch up with.

(30:50):

I'm giving you the permission to message them and to say hello and to reconnect, because that to me is the fun thing. It's always nice to reconnect with people. And then number three is I want you to find three to five people who are interesting in your industry vertical or in your future career that you love to be more deeply connected to who have active profiles on LinkedIn. And what you're going to do from there is I want you to spend the next week commenting on any posts saying hi, engaging with them, essentially being in conversation with them on LinkedIn. And I guarantee this will a hundred percent change not only your LinkedIn experience, but also change your network.

Anita Brick (31:36):

I love those. Those are easy, and they sound really fun. Your answer was just like the book and it was pretty awesome. Thank you. Thank you so much. I know you are super busy. I know that you are opening a path for people who, not that they don't have a voice, but they don't use their voice because it's too scary and you're making that accessible. So thank you for that and reminding us all to treat ourselves and others with grace and with appreciation because that makes the world a little bit better. And I think we could use some of that right now.

Goldie Chan (32:11):

Absolutely. I think we all could use a little bit of grace for ourselves and for others.

Anita Brick (32:15):

Well, thank you so much, and again, thank you for making the time.

Goldie Chan (32:19):

Thank you so much for having me,

Anita Brick (32:20):

And thank you all for listening. This is Anita Brick with Career Cast at Chicago Booth. Keep advancing.