Let the Story do the Work

Anita Brick: Hi, this is Anita Brick, and welcome to CareerCast at Chicago Booth. To help you advance in your career. Today we're delighted to be speaking with Esther Choy. And I will tell you from firsthand experience, Esther is a force of nature not just around storytelling. But if she walks into a room, you know it. She is president and chief story facilitator at Leadership Story Lab and author of the business storytelling book, Let the Story Do the Work.

Esther has been teaching leadership and storytelling since 2010, and before it was a thing, you know, storytelling became a thing. Although it's thousands of years old, I think you breathe new life into it, Esther. Over the years, through her firm, she worked with clients in industries as wide ranging as health care, engineering, investments, top airlines and CPT. She has combined the science of persuasion and the art of storytelling to help her clients find more meaningful ways to connect with her audiences.

Esther is an adjunct faculty member at the Kellogg School of Management and in partnership with Kellogg's Board Center for Family Enterprises. She hosts the Family in Business podcast. Every Monday morning, you'll find Esther beginning her day with a 1000-meter swim and, oh my gosh, I can't believe I'm saying this, and a raw jalapeno pepper. She is the mom of two trilingual girls, wife of a German, is not very punctual, and a very humble student of kite-surfing.

Esther, thank you, thank you, thank you. I know that you're super busy and I'm just really thrilled that we have this time together.

Esther Choy: Oh my goodness, thank you so much for having me.

Anita Brick: It's a really nice reunion as well.

Esther Choy: It sure is.

Anita Brick: You worked at Booth and you come back like now and really share your wisdom. Let's start with the really important first question.

And that is what do you consider to be key aspects of building a career or a business story that can really convey a powerful message and let it do some of the heavy-lifting?

Esther Choy: I do think that most people, from what I've observed, are doing too much, not letting some of the natural interpersonal communication dynamic forces work to their advantage.

I've always advised clients of the three tenants of persuasive perfection. You can imagine a triangle at the base. At the foundational level, we need information because without which you could come across as baseless. And just like getting to know someone at a networking event to doing coffee chats to fully engage in the interview process, there's a lot of information to be shared. And that works outside of the job-search interview setting as well.

But this is where most people are overdoing information. Oftentimes what’s lacking is the middle section of this triangle and that is what I call a conceptual guide, a conceptual core or a guiding concept that governs what sorts of information do you share, at what time and in what sequence. And then finally at the top of the triangle, that is what I call an emotional underpinning of your message.

How do you want your audience to feel, having heard your message or your story or your presentation? Because logic makes you think, emotion makes you act. We're talking about storytelling in the context of leadership business, and we're not talking about throwing your hat in your open mic night at your local bar. I encourage people to do that. It's a very, very worthwhile experience. We're not talking about baring your soul and entertaining people. We're talking about telling a persuasive story so that people will behave in the ways that you wish to see.

So again, the three tenants of persuasive perfection has the information at the bottom, at the foundation, have the conceptual core in the middle and has an emotional underpinning at the very top.

Anita Brick: So where does the idea of theme come in? There’s an MBA student who said, “I really agree with your idea of finding a theme. My struggle is to find mine. Are there any questions you recommend asking yourself to uncover that theme?”

Esther Choy: I wish I can say I have a magic potion I've bottled up. I don't. Knowing and covering the theme takes time and takes some effort. I have to say that upfront. Assuming that the student would like to put in the effort and the time, here's how generally the process works. I would do an inventory, and there are a lot of different ways to get your stories down. Usually the easiest is starting from chronology. But going deeper and asking why was I even there at the first place? Or how did I even find that job? Or what allowed that connection to happen that lead to this big insight? So go a little bit deeper than just the mere facts.

Then you want to take a step back and try to search for a pattern. You want to give yourself some time away from the material. You also want to ask a trusted friend or advisor or counselor or a coach to come in and maybe look at the same thing as you are by looking at a very different angle and perspective and see what pattern he or she can observe.

Oftentimes what I think of as a theme is a conceptual guide to what lead you to one thing to another, even if they may not have the most obvious commonality.

Can I share a quick story about what happened to me when I took my first career inventory?

Anita Brick: Of course. Can't wait to hear.

Esther Choy: So this is eons ago, so I will date myself by naming the assessment. It's called the Strong Interest Inventory. I took it when I was an undergrad, I think I was a junior. The top career that showed up, the number one career for me was funeral home director.

Anita Brick: Oh my.

Esther Choy: I don't know anything about funerals. I was lucky enough to have not experienced any deaths in the family or community. That was the most surprising and also negative assessment for me. And I discarded it because I thought, this is just silly. That's not me. I don't know anything about it and I have no desire. But now adding a couple of decades of experience with it, I can see that there's actually a theme, a pattern to my propensity or my ability to help people problem-solve and help people feel a sense of calm even when they are feeling at their worst.

Anita Brick: Very insightful.

Esther Choy: That is a conceptual core of who I am, but it takes a while and not everything will take decades and eons to figure out. But you do want to give yourself the opportunity to step back after you've done sort of a brain dump or inventory and really think about what are the commonalities that connect the events that happen in your life.

Anita Brick: That is a great ongoing process to do. Some people do it every year at the end of the year, at the beginning of the year, but it can help you refine it. I think it also can differentiate you.

It goes to a question that another MBA student asked, and she said, “I am in the midst of doing coffee chats for consulting. In your book, you talk about leaving them with something new. How does this play out? Not to be cynical, but they've heard it all. I appreciate your insights and how to leave a seasoned consultant with something new and relevant.”

Esther Choy: Well, first of all, this very student did something that I wish everyone would do and that is coming up with really, really good questions. I promise you, if you think you can't come up with anything new, but you have really, really good questions, that in and of itself is a new thing and will help this person remember you. So I'm always, always a big advocate of always have two questions ready at the back of your pocket no matter where you're going, what functions you're going, whether it has anything to do with career, work, profession or not. Always have two great questions at the back of your pocket.

In regards to having coffee chat and leaving the person with something new. When you think that person have heard it all. That question reminds me of when I had used to work for Booth, back in the days I was in full-time MBA admissions. In my time, we had actually travel to places outside of the US to interview. In this particular country, I started my day from eight and then it was five. Every single hour at the top of the hour, I talked and interviewed with someone. In a way, it was quite similar to having a coffee chat. And I could just remember, as an introvert myself, having spoken to that many people, eight to five with a short lunch in between, every single at the top of the hour, I have a new person. At the end of the day, I actually felt hungry for real conversation. But I talked to people all day long. But at the end of that stretch, I felt that deep deficit of a real conversation. Because understandably, most everything I heard is what people think I want to hear.

Anita Brick: I guess, of course.

Esther Choy: And so inevitably, they all sound the same or more or less the same.

I would really think that in addition to coming up with really good questions, I would love if I talked to somebody who is has this genuine curiosity about me or about the MBA degree, the program experience at Booth or about University of Chicago, or about the city of Chicago, about studying abroad, in that case. Just in general, this genuine curiosity about the person that you're having the conversation with.

And just two other things. If you don't think you can possibly offer them anything new, which I doubt, by the way. Let's just say that is the case for the simplicity of the argument. But what if you have some ability to help them think about what they have to think about, wrestle with differently. For example, nowadays everybody is struggling for talent. Everybody. Are there intel, perhaps? Are there things that you've heard from your peers, or words on the street, or things that your peers in your class are talking about that maybe recruiters or the partners or people in the hiring end really have no insight on? These are new things. They don't have to be the secret to unlock the next vaccine.

But trust me, there are a lot of insights that are hidden in the everyday that is often overlooked. That if you only take some time to think about it, what other people would found completely insightful.

Anita Brick: Really good point. I think underlying that is being curious a little bit all the time so that you are listening when people talk. If you talk to enough people, it can give you the insight, put things together and see some patterns or trends. Sometimes it's talking to people, sometimes it's reading, etc. etc. listening to your podcast or this one. Part of it is having this curious learning mentality so that you are fresh too.

Esther Choy: Yeah, yeah, I definitely advocate for being prepared. I also encourage people to stay flexible and stay curious. Have your questions ready. Really also coming in with the attitude of, not only do I really want to impress this person, I want this person to feel like he or she has impressed me.

Anita Brick: Oh, tell me, how do you do that?

Esther Choy: Well, lots of Booth flashbacks right now. When I applied for the job, the admissions officer job, I did not think I would get it at all. I was surprised that I even got a call from Kurt when I got an invitation to do an interview, I spoke to the admissions dean at the time. When we sat down, he was just doing sort of icebreaker, welcome, let me tell you a little bit about the school. Because it's top of mind at the time there was a campaign and the school was doing really well and in fact it was ahead of the campaign schedule. And at that time I interjected him because I was really curious. So, Don, tell me, what do you think had contributed to the fact that the campaign is ahead of schedule?

Now he was on a roll, just giving me a little spiel about the school. I don't think he expected that I would interrupt him. And generally I don't recommend people interrupting others. But in this case it was really well warranted, because it had invited him to do some on the spot reflection. And therefore I think it really changed the dynamic of the conversation from I'm selling myself or maybe he's selling the school to yeah, let's reflect together a little bit about what made the school so successful at the time with its fundraising effort and what can be learned or applied or borrowed from for admissions purposes?

Anita Brick: That’s brilliant and when you think about it, some people want to look really smart and they do things like, let's say they were behind. They would go toward the negative and say, well, why do you think this failed? Or why do you think this is slow? I just think that's a bad idea. What do you think?

Esther Choy: Oh, I agree. Learning has to take place in the context of trust and respect and support. In absence of any of it, I would not go there.

Anita Brick: I agree. I think that sometimes, and I fell into this pattern myself when I was 9 million years ago doing campus recruiting. I was so nervous that I made the other person uncomfortable. What are some things in terms of breaking into your story? Because everybody gets asked some variation of tell me about yourself. And I know in the book you talk about how it looks like that's a story about the person telling it, and it really should be a story for the person who is receiving it. Tell me a little bit about that. That came from an alum.

Esther Choy: Yeah, yeah. And I like to do this wordplay that if I have some visual aid or some ways to communicate visuals, you know. But if you can picture, tell me about yourself, forwards, tell me about yourself. Words are symbols and oftentimes mean different things to different people.

And so I would just start by saying let's make sure that we interpret the words, the requests, the ask correctly. Tell me about yourself. Does not mean I'm asking for your verbal version of your resume, your CV. Tell me about yourself does not mean tell me everything about yourself chronologically. Because based on the answers that I've gotten over the years, when I was interviewing folks for Booth and training students and alum to interview, that was how people, many of them, interpret the request tell me about yourself. And instead, if you can think about, you know, editing tool coming in, tell me about yourself. It really should rather mean tell me something about yourself and then, comma, tell me something about yourself, comma, that reminds me of me.

Anita Brick: That's brilliant. That's brilliant.

Esther Choy: So I don't want to know everything about you. Not at that point, anyway. Even if I do, there's no way for me to remember all of it. So there's no point. So don't go there. And instead, think about, well, what is this something then. How do I choose? Which one? How do I know which one, which part? The guideline is what about you that is, most likely reminding the other person of themselves.

Anita Brick: How do you know that if you don't know the person very well?

Esther Choy: I know that in there are many instances where there's no way for you to know who you'll be talking to. Right then I would go to this concept called shared experience. Shared experiences are basically common shared human experiences having a really, really stellar teacher who turn you on on a subject that you may not even like or care about.

Common experience could be having a really challenging teammate to work with. Shared experience could be you were all set on pursuing a career path, and then you realized that that was really not the right thing for you. And it doesn't all have to be work related, professional related. It could also be personal. Personal, but not private. Okay, there's a huge distinction between that.

Anita Brick: Oh yeah.

Esther Choy: Personal could be the fact that I begin each week, every Monday morning by swimming at least 1000 meters and a raw jalapeno. That's a little odd, I admit, fact to share about information about me. But it's not private, right? And this gets to the idea for certain rituals to start at the beginning of a period, for me it’s Monday morning, for many people it’s Monday morning.

There are ways that you can start building that bridge without knowing a thing about that person, but you have to do your homework ahead of time and think about what are some universal shared experiences, and what are the ones that I can easily speak to because I have lots of experience in those areas.

Anita Brick: Now, where do you put that in the story of tell me about yourself? You have to think about it and where it feels right. Or does it go in the beginning, middle, or toward the end?

Esther Choy: I tend to put those in the beginning because I always encourage clients to start with an intrigue, with a hook. Something that gets other people to feel curious. And that's what, you know, the book is Let the Story Do the Work, let it do the work. Don't think you have to bombard people with information, and just especially not from the beginning.

So with things like that, I would start in the beginning because it really helps you do the heavy lifting. If people were curious and they want to know, they would be bothered if you stop talking. Wouldn't that be nice?

Anita Brick: It's great. Well, could you give us like an example of how you might take a universal experience and start off with an answer to tell me about yourself?

Esther Choy: I often say that I have been teaching storytelling for 12 years now, and 12 years ago it wasn't a thing. And in fact, people assume that I might be a children's book author or I might be able to play the banjo and tell jokes and come entertain people. That bit, let me stop right here, that bit is information, right? I've been at this for 12 years, and then five years ago, it wasn't an established practice. Okay. There's another piece of information. And also that the default assumption that people had when they heard storytelling. All of that is information. But then the shared experiences is that I was trying to start something new or unfamiliar to most people, and in fact, most of them have the wrong idea of what this is about.

Anita Brick: Interesting. Makes me think back a long time when I was struggling in first-round interviews, not for internships but post-MBA jobs, untilI brought up something that at the time was fairly unusual. And that was that I had started a business while I was a student. Now today everybody does it, but at the time it was kind of unusual. And that's what the interviewer remembered. When he said, tell me about yourself. And I said, well, you know, I grew up in an entrepreneurial family, and I just felt compelled to start a business while I was a student. That's what he remembered and he got back to me very quickly. And in fact, it was in corporate development, which was way out of my wheelhouse because I had no experience.

It's a really good point.

Esther Choy: So I just want to really iterate that, starting something that is, quote unquote, unusual for those who are consuming that information. I was talking about storytelling. You're then talking about starting a business, why you're a student. And that led to a corporate development opportunity post-MBA. Those are vastly unrelated things and yet at their conceptual core, it's about doing something unusual that most people don't yet appreciate what it is. That's memorable. And number two, look at what it just did, just between you and me. I brought up my example. When you can pinpoint the conceptual core of this that helps you recall, oh yeah, I have the same thing, that is our shared experience.

Anita Brick: That was great. Do you have time for two more questions?

Esther Choy: I have time for 20 more.

Anita Brick: Okay, good. Well we can talk for a long time. So here's a question from an alum. Now we talked about the engagement and curiosity and sharing some facts and some emotion and shared experience. And this alum said, he said, “What type of emotion creates a call to action? How do people do this naturally and authentically? I want to do this in a way that is aligned with my purpose, which is social impact in a for-profit-oriented company.”

Esther Choy: Yeah, yeah, what a great question. I'm going to approach these questions by offering your listeners two layers of ways of looking at it. When you construct a story, think IRS.

Now, I do not mean IRS as an Internal Revenue Services. IRS in terms of constructing a story stands for “intriguing beginning.” That's the “I.” And then “riveting middle.” That's the “R.” And then “satisfying end.” That’s the “S.” So IRS in the story construction. Now back to the questions about what sort of emotions would be helpful that creates call to action, but in a natural authentic way because this is in a context of a social impact, but is for profit.

So I would say in parallel to IRS, if you have an intriguing beginning, you'll make people feel curious. It is not just one emotion throughout. It’s several. In the beginning, you want people to feel curious. What is she going to talk about? Or why is that so? I haven't thought about it this way. So on and so forth.

Then once you got people curious, then I often say to clients that’s when you have earned your right to tell your story. And then once you have earned your right to tell your story, the riveting middle, when you know you have achieved that in the context of persuading people to act, two of the most helpful emotions to get people to act, it's either envy or fear, or sometimes both.

Anita Brick: Interesting.

Esther Choy: Envy is what you get other people to want something but they don't have. Fear is when you make people feel in the absence of what you want them to do. We don't want to end there though, because especially with fear, if you end things with fear, fear can paralyze people into doing nothing. As a satisfying end, you want people to feel hopeful. Regardless if it's coming from fear or coming from envy, hopeful in a sense that, if I take the following actions and I know exactly what to do, then there is the hope that would lead me to a desirable outcome or desirable future, whatever that may be. So IRS–intriguing beginning, riveting middle, and satisfying end–as your guide, your template to construct your story.

In terms of emotions, there are hundreds of them in parallel to IRS. In the context of encouraging your audience to take actions, first would be curious, second would be either envy or fear, and then the last would be hope.

Anita Brick: Got it. That makes sense. Since you’ve told us a lot of things, and I really enjoy your approach and your style and even the ease, the way that you and I are communicating right now.

Esther Choy: Thank you.

Anita Brick: You put people at ease. What are three things that you would advise someone to do who wants to develop and share a career or business story that can do the work and convey a powerful message? What would those three things be?

Esther Choy: I'd say you have to know your audience. There's no getting around to that. You also have to know your story, and not only in the ways that of the facts and how one plays out to the other. But understanding the meaning behind your story for you and for your audience. And then last but not least, I say it must be tested. Tested in a way that is smart, that is sufficient, that allows you to course-correct because we're telling stories not for ourselves. We're telling stories for our audience. So in the ways that they react, consume, and interpret it, it is really hard for us to accurately gauge without having tested.

So know your audience, know your story and the meaning behind it, and make sure you test it and refine it.

Anita Brick: Just a little clarification of the last one. So when you test, how do you test so that the risk isn't too high if the story isn't working?

Esther Choy: I would role play it with someone, but not anybody. I would role play it with a person who is understanding of what you're trying to achieve, so that that person has a good contextual appreciation of what you're trying to do. And then the person that has that relationship with you so that learning can take place or he or she has to give you constructive feedback.

Third, is give them a context for when your real audience is going to hear you. So here's an example. Don't ask a person to be present, to be paying 100% to you, to be even at the top of their game. Hey, if that's a morning person, then you know, let's meet in the morning because you're at the top of your game.

No. As much as possible, actually ask them to be distracted. Ask to role play when well, because this is a trusted friend, ask them to me when they're tired and distracted. You want to select the person as well as the condition for which, when you do the role play that is most similar to when you are actually telling the story. Trust me, they will be most likely tired, most likely distracted, and most likely have heard it or think they have heard it before.

Anita Brick: Very good insights, very practical. Thank you Esther, and those of you listening, I'm sure that you want to know more. You can go to Leadership Story Lab, which has some amazing things on it. Loved your book. And so I would also recommend reading Let the Story Do the Work. And Esther, thank you for making time for us.

Esther Choy: This is a really great reunion.I really appreciate the opportunity.

Anita Brick: Oh my gosh, you’re so welcome. You gave us so much. I just want to thank you once again.

Esther Choy: Thank you.

Anita Brick: And thank you all for listening. This is Anita with CareerCast at Chicago Booth. Keep advancing.