Creating a Compelling LinkedIn Presence

Anita Brick: Hi, this is Anita Brick and welcome to CareerCast at Chicago Booth. To help you advance in your career. Today, we're delighted to be speaking with David Mattson. He is the CEO and president of Sandler Training and a best selling author, sales and management thought leader, keynote speaker and leader for sales training seminars all over the world. David oversees the corporate direction and strategy for the company's global operations.

Thank you for making the time. There are always so many questions about LinkedIn because people know if you are trying to connect with someone for a networking conversation. If you apply for a job, everybody looks at your LinkedIn profile and it can either help things move forward or it can really detract at a basic level. One of the evening students said, are there 2 or 3 things that I can do quickly and immediately to improve my LinkedIn profile? Let's start off with a bang and let's give them some advice straight away.

David Mattson: First of all, we have to commit to being on LinkedIn. Do that. I think most people just set it up and walk away thinking that LinkedIn is going to do all this magical stuff behind the scenes, and it doesn't work that way. Some quick things that I would do is certainly put a profile picture up, make sure it's professional.

I was on this morning. Looked like they had just dragged over their Facebook page. LinkedIn is not Facebook. And so I think if you're going to set the stage of who you want people to view you since they don't know you, pick the best professional picture that you've got and use that. I think you need to make sure that your slogan underneath your name is exactly what you want it to say, because it shows up everywhere that you show up when you're on LinkedIn.

And I think that's a great introductory statement of who you are and the things that you do. That's really important. But if I step back for a second, some quick tips, and maybe not just on my profile, would be if I were trying to figure out how to leverage LinkedIn in an effective way, I would set what I call a cookbook for myself, or a recipe that said, I'm going to spend 30 minutes a day mining my LinkedIn connections, making sure that I'm doing the right thing.

Technology in general can be either you've ignored it or it's all consuming. I mean, I've got clients that spend three hours a day, and it's not because they're utilizing it as a networking tool. They just don't know what to do. So they're just spending a lot of time hoping that that's the answer. But I think if you set a specific time, you need that's the best thing that you could do.

And that way you can get all those other things that you need to do. I also would say a quick thing that you can do is to start to join the groups that your profession and people of leaders in your industry, wherever you want to head or if you're in there now in the industry that you want to be in.

Start joining groups that are important to that industry. And if you say, well, I don't know what those are, why don't you go to some of the sea level people and where are they participating and do the same? And I think that's a pretty good jump start.

Anita Brick: So on the other hand, when you go in, does you do this a lot. So when you go in and you view someone's profile, what are the areas that you will judge someone right away?

David Mattson: I think it's how they explain themselves. Here's a mistake. Most people will say, let me tell you a bit about who I am in the company that I'm working for. I think the best thing for you to do if you look at a profile is create a 32nd commercial which basically says, here's the types of things I do, types of companies that I work with, or whether it's internal or external, and the types of problems that I solve.

If you focus your LinkedIn profile, who are you trying to get their attention? Who are you trying to attract? And if you look at what you write, is it just self-promotion, or is it sending a message to those that you want to connect with? And that's a huge difference.

Anita Brick: Well, it's a really good point. And that was actually a question for weekend students. What advice would you give someone who wants to be more attractive and more visible to recruiters who search for candidates through the search engine? I mean, you said before the slogan or really what sits right under your name, the default is your title and your company, but you can change that to anything. And I think that's really great advice. Beyond that, in a way, it's kind of SEO. How do you make sure that you come up in the searches for people who are recruiting?

David Mattson: If I were trying to figure out how to gain the attention of a recruiter, I would do a couple things. I would start making sure that there's any accomplishments or things that you've been doing, like, hey, I was part of X, Y, Z, put some pictures up there, put a hyperlink up there. The more pictures, the more videos that you have on LinkedIn, the better off that you are.

So I would do that immediately to catch their attention and recruiters are going to look at three basic areas. They're going to look at skills, experience and results. They have a job and they know that job profile. They're trying to figure out who, what candidate, what applicant fits perfectly into my job profile that I'm looking for. And so they're going to have to look for a lot of different things, the ones that stick out immediately.

For most recruiters those three areas are skills, experience and results. You may say, well, I don't have the experience yet or I may not have the results, but that's not 100% true because I think you do have life experiences in life results. If you are working as you're going through, and there are some job results and experiences that you have.

So I would look at those three areas and say, what can I bring to the table there? I'd also then figure out if you can showcase your current work or any projects, as I said, that you're doing, and make sure that you've got some good keywords in there as you start to search down in LinkedIn, stuff pops up based on how they describe themselves as, you know, one of those things, you have to again, look at it from the sunglasses of a recruiter.

Of course, they want to know what school you went to, so that's always important. But they're trying to figure out very, very quickly, does this person fit into my culture? Does this person have the skills necessary to succeed at this job? Do they have any relevant experience that would make it easy for me to say they can succeed at our company?

And those are the types of things that you have to look for. There is self-promotion on LinkedIn. Let's face it, I just think it's again, you position it because if I'm a recruiter, my problem isn't finding applicants. My problem is sorting through thousands of options. And who am I actually going to talk to? The biggest challenge any recruiter has is time. Who am I spending my time with? So anything that you can do to separate yourself from the pack, you're going to be much better off.

Anita Brick: There are two questions really on the same topic. Both happened to be executive MBA students and they said, you know, I often hear different and conflicting advice about how much information to be on my LinkedIn profile. Should it be my resignation, should it be more than my resume? Less than my resume? What do you advise people who are in the middle upper middle management aspiring to be in executive management?

David Mattson: There's a couple things. Either my past experience doesn't match my future where I want to be, or it doesn't tell the story. I believe that your LinkedIn profile doesn't necessarily mean that your resume. Right. So I think you can say whatever you'd like in a face to face, or whether it's a phone interview. And when you get the resume there.

I think that that's a lot more detail on a resume than I would have on a LinkedIn profile. I've looked at thousands of LinkedIn profiles, and I'm not sure the more successful ones break it down to what they did over their summer job. So I would say pick and choose. If you have relevant information, put it closer up your profile.

If you want to include the other stuff, put it lower down. It's okay to take some of the things out of your LinkedIn profile that aren't relevant and that doesn't mean you're hiding from them, just means it. Bring it up if you have to, if you want to and you're face to face, don't make it a reason why people say, well, for the last four years, you have no relevant experience. You may not be qualified for us, when in fact that may not be true because you have a lot of other stuff that you'd like to be promoting.

Anita Brick: Good point to that point. And Alan asked this question. He was concerned about something he did right out of undergrad that doesn't sync up with what he wants to do next. And his question was, is it okay? And I think you believe it's okay to maybe leave out something in the LinkedIn profile that maybe in your resume, how do you address those gaps? Or will that send up a red flag to someone if they see gaps in your LinkedIn profile? How do you manage that?

David Mattson: I think that the LinkedIn profile, from a recruiter standpoint, is a way to have a conversation. I think that you could put up relevant posts. You should be joining relevant groups. You should participate in the group's blogs in making sure that you're active, the link to things that you're currently doing, that your 32nd commercial could be crisp and to the point.

If there's things that you don't want to put in or there's gaps of time. There are many profiles on LinkedIn. If you look like they actually don't have the time, they just simply say, here's where I've worked. You know, we have this need as a society to over educate people who may not need to be overeducated, meaning thousands of recruiters that may or may not need to know where you were for exactly one year and three months.

Why don't you just simply say, here's where I've worked. People have questions. That's great. They'll call you. But if you have a robust profile that says, here's something that I did with XYZ, the association or charity or whatever the case may be, it may not be work related. I think that stuff is good for you to put in for me.

I want you to call me. I mean, that's the ultimate goal. I think what happens sometimes with students, regardless of what age you are, if you put way too much stuff in there and then it's overwhelming and a recruiter very quickly can't determine what's important, what's not. So therefore nothing is important and they're off to the next candidate.

Anita Brick: Very, very good point. Along those lines, we can say my designation is solution architect, you know, which is a technical consultant. Right now in LinkedIn I use a solution architect instead. I am a tech consultant. Is that the right approach or do I need to use my exact title?

David Mattson: I think that's a decision for them to make. Let me give you the big picture answer. You're looking for a job. Use the term that is relevant for those who are looking to hire you. I personally wouldn't know the difference between those two designations at all. Doesn't matter to me, but if I'm looking for a solution architect and you have a tech consultant there, I'm not sure that I would make the jump.

If you're looking to be hired within an organization as a tech consultant, then and then you're going to go into the solution architecture portion of it, then fine. But if those terms are interchangeable, then use the biggest one that'll drag you into a company. That may not be exactly what it is, but it's close enough and you could add value.

But I think what happens is people butter up what they're looking for, and it dilutes what they're actually searching for, and the company doesn't really understand what you're doing. If that term is solution architect. And again, companies are specifically looking for that term and they're looking for that individual. Use it. You're going to feel like maybe you've made a mistake because the amount of inquiries and responses that you get may go down, but they're probably higher quality versus you're just throwing the shotgun out there and seeing what sticks against the wall, and it feels good. You feel like a winner. But those conversations go nowhere because it's not exactly what they're looking for and what you want to do for the rest of your life.

Anita Brick: Switching gears just for a quick sake here, another weekend student said, I'm pursuing an investment management career, but I'm open to other possibilities such as banking and private equity. My LinkedIn profile is really focused on investment management. Will I confuse someone if I include everything, or is there a way of making it appealing to multiple audiences?

David Mattson: If you are looking for both, you know, to me everything is like Olympic circles. There are some overlaps and then there are some things that just have to do with banking, and there's things that have to do with, let's say, private equity. You certainly can have the words have both in there. So it pops up for sure. The big thrust would probably be the characteristics, their experiences, the skills necessary for both of those that would appeal to the person who's looking for either private equity and or banking.

I mean, I do a ton of work in both of those industries, and I'd have to say, because I know that world, there is an awful lot of overlap as far as what a company would look for. You should figure out what the overlap is and not try to narrow it down to the point where a banker would say, wait a minute, that's an investment in equity guy, or hey, this is such and such.

I think you have to broaden your net a little bit. That says, if I were standing back at 20,000ft, what would they be? Characteristics, skills, experiences that that group, those two specific areas that you mentioned would have interest in. And I think there's an awful lot of overlap. I think what happens is when we're looking, we get blinders on.

Everything becomes black or white and there's a ton of gray, and that's that middle area of the circle where both of them probably would say, this is a worthwhile candidate. I'd like to interview them. That's all you're trying to do, right? You're trying to get a call. You're trying to get an email for that next step. If you haven't chosen whether you want to do equity or banking, then I think you have to stay in the middle ground.

Anita Brick: So it sounds like it's a middle ground, but with enough specificity so that the skills that you're highlighting resonate with them.

David Mattson: With both sides. Yeah. With both. Absolutely, absolutely. And I think if they search down in you could be joining both of those groups. Right. Because there are different groups for banking and private equity. You could be participating in both, you know, so there's certain things that you could do. If a person really wanted to go a little deeper, they would say, oh, well, of course they are involved in private equity activities. They're involved in this group. They've done it here. Here's what they've added. Here's a photo when they're in the private equity club over here. Whatever the case may be, I think you could do a good job sending the message without excluding one.

Anita Brick: I agree there are two questions that are very tactical in nature. So the first one was from an alum who said, can you give me some profile advice from the perspective of a person that wants to do work that is significantly different from the work they're currently doing? For example, what would be some starting advice on writing a summary?

David Mattson: Going back to some of the things that I said earlier on, I think if I'm making a career change, I want to make sure that my 32nd commercial is what you want it to be. We've kind of talked about that already, so I think that that's important. I think if I'm making a career change, I want to then out join some of the clubs and some of the groups that you want to be in, not that where you've been.

I think that's important. I think your slogan should change. So they have a very clear understanding of who you want to be, not who you were. I think that you should start participating in whatever you can in your local market, in the areas that you want to be known for, so you can start putting up some written and some audio and some video stuff.

I think that that's important. You can create who you want to be very quickly on LinkedIn, but you're just going to have to be active about it. You can't sit around hoping that people say, oh yeah, I know this person for who they'd like to be, because it doesn't show that you can push things that are relevant to the industry that they want to go into. There's a million things, as you know, and the idea that they could actually do that would send the message, this is who they want to be, not necessarily where I came from. That's important.

Anita Brick: I agree. I think it's a very important point. One qualifier with that is some people will actually put in their LinkedIn profile, either under their slogan and or in their summary what they are seeking and what I've read from research is that that is not a good way. It's more to demonstrate that you're headed where you want to go, like you just said, as opposed to I want to find a career. I want to build a career in X.

David Mattson: It's like a goal. I can tell people. But if you took LinkedIn as a, this is like my number one job is to brand myself properly. There are an awful lot of things that are going around in your daily life that you don't pay attention to, that you could capture. You're in there, you're relevant, you're doing it now versus this is something I'm talking about. I'm dreaming about it. You should be in the do mode, show mode, and that can get done relatively quickly.

Anita Brick: You're absolutely right. One other tactical question has to do with third party recommendations and endorsements. So this alone said you hear a lot about third party recommendations and endorsements. I've even had a colleague say to me, if you write me a recommendation, all right, one for you. What is the right level for a recommendation or an endorsement that will actually be perceived as having real value?

David Mattson: Well, I think quality is better than quantity for sure. There's no magic number, but I like five. You mean I would shoot for five? I think that's a good number. If you have a contact or a business, somebody that's known and respected in the industry, you should do whatever you can to make sure that you have a recommendation from them. That's kind of important. Intuitively, we all know recommendations. You know, that is the end all. But are they better than endorsements? People just are hitting buttons now, though it becomes almost less important in my mind because I look at all the people that have endorsed me. As I look at it, I've got a ton of them and very few.

I would have to say that I actually know personally. They're just clicking away saying, hey, if that person says you do mine, I'll do yours. If they're known in the industry, great. Again, I think if you're looking for somebody to say, a valuable member, there's somebody in the industry well-established that could say something nice about you. And then you can post on LinkedIn.

Why not? But, you know, these are active activities. You have to be active about that. So you have to go search for them. I have to go ask people. I ask, hey, could you write something up for me? And you have to be on them. So I think it's just one of those things where you have to pay attention to I like five, so in essence, go pick the best five that you can get. And you and I both know what you start with. And a year from now may not be there. It's okay to rotate through, right?

Anita Brick: You're absolutely.

David Mattson: Right. You just have to get started. I think you have to get started and have something. Because the other thing that I always watch is executives frozen with, well, I don't necessarily think that's the right person yet. I'm going to wait for X and we're constantly waiting for me. I always say to them, why don't you just put who you know you can get immediately?

That is valuable. You know, and I know it. And then there's the other person, this person that you have on the industry pedestal that you're going to go get them and rotate it in. But why wait? You don't know when that's going to happen. It's out of your control. Why don't you deal with what's in your control and have a goal for yourself on the 30 minutes you're going to spend each day to say, between now, in six months, my goal is to get X and I'm going to make sure that I get a good message from them so I can put it on my LinkedIn profile that that's what you should be thinking about.

Anita Brick: Great advice. Do you have time for two more questions? Sure. Yeah. Okay. Great. Not to put you on the spot. And if you don't have an answer to this, it's totally fine. But a weekend MBA student said, hi David, are there any showcase profiles on LinkedIn that you recommend we take a look at to have a positive example of what's effective?

David Mattson: First of all, you should do a couple things. One is to go within your industry of where you'd like to go, figure out who your leaders are, and start looking at commonality within their profiles. C-suite, in the senior execs, and then any specific industry doesn't mean that they have an awesome LinkedIn profile. They're doing it themselves. Chances are it's not great if they have somebody at their organization doing it for them and helping them, chances are it's a lot better. I'll tell you two, that stick out for me, that are good examples of putting social media in there and putting links in there. One is Jill Rowley. It's r o w l e y. So that's Jill. And then Jamie Shanks does a good job and that's jamIe Shanks shanks. They do a good job and they have a lot of different varieties in there. And it's to the point there's no confusion of what they do as a result to have awesome followings.

Anita Brick: Thank you. Finally, So what are three things that a person could do today to have a consistently compelling LinkedIn presence?

David Mattson: Do your picture. Make sure it's professional. I would make sure that you have quality connections. Just don't connect. I know there's a big push for it. Get as many as you can. That's not necessarily true I think. Get a good slogan. Join the groups that are relevant to where you'd like to go, not where you are today.

Update or post something at least every 30 days, so don't leave it stagnant. Don't say that's an awesome masterpiece and therefore I'm going to leave it as is. You want to constantly be updating and adding things. I think you have Add, as I said, that time frame for yourself of how long you're going to be there. If you are going to connect with somebody, then I think you should not use the standard.

I would like for you to be in my network invitation. I think that you should personalize the invitation for people. I think that's important. If you're going to tie into someone that you don't know. But do you want to tie in some mutual thing that you're doing, whether it's, hey, we're both in this group or, hey, I noticed that you wrote this on a particular blog post or when you went to the same school, whatever it is. But when you have a common thing with somebody that you want to connect with, there's a 70% higher probability that they're going to say yes to you. So you have to use that to your advantage. Use the stats. And that's what I would be doing.

Anita Brick: It's not a set it and forget it kind of thing. LinkedIn, it's active marketing just like all the other areas of our career. Thank you for your advice. Very concrete, very practical. I'm sure people listening will be able to finish listening and then go off into LinkedIn and make some immediate changes, whether it's their slogan, what's it's under their name or their summary. I love the idea of adding pictures. We're very visual, and I think as time goes on it's more and more. So. Thank you, David, very much for making the time.

David Mattson: It's my pleasure. Yeah, thanks for having me.

Anita Brick: And one thing before we go, David's site, Sandler training site, which is Sandler s a and De Law.com, has some amazing things. In fact, the book LinkedIn The Sandler Way. With your email address, you can download the whole block for a bunch of other things. There. Great tools. And David, thank you for generously sending us there and offering these things. So thanks very much for doing that too.

David Mattson: Yeah, it's my pleasure. If they want to really figure out how to go deep and wide with the 25 secrets on LinkedIn, it is on sandler.com. And Anita is my just as a thank you for having me. If any of the listeners want to go to a training center and just take their game to the next level, whatever that would be for them, whether it's interviewing or presentation skills or whatever, just go on the Sandler site, look for a training center and see which is the closest to you and just say, hey, I listened to Dave and Anita, and I'd like to come as Dave's guests sit and enjoy your leave with something that will help you become more productive.

Anita Brick: That's very generous. Thank you very much, David. And again, thanks for making the time with us.

David Mattson: Thank you and good luck to everyone.

Anita Brick: Thank you all for listening. This is Anita Brick with CareerCast at Chicago Booth. Keep advancing.