Out of Sight Top of Mind

Anita Brick:

Hi, this is Anita Brick and welcome to CareerCast at Chicago Booth to help you advance in your career. Today we're delighted. Well, actually, I'm more than delighted for us to be speaking with Carrie Collins. She's a JD, PhD, strategist, speaker, and founder of HOWLLC. She advises organizations navigating growth, transformation, and changing workforce models, which is really what we're going to talk about today, with deep expertise in leadership, change management, and organizational strategy. She's especially focused on helping leaders build clarity, trust, and high performing teams in remote and hybrid environments, and on rethinking how leadership must evolve for today's distributed workplace. And the book, From Office to Anywhere, is a great blueprint, very human, caring side.

Carrie Collins:

Thanks, Anita. Thank you so much for having me today for this conversation. I'm thrilled you liked the book. Practical and accessible are the two words that I tend to use to describe my approaches to many things. So I'm glad to see that that came through in the book as

Anita Brick:

Well. And that was very clear to me, by the way. All right, so we'll jump in and let's have some fun.

Carrie Collins:

Great.

Anita Brick:

So an MBA student said, "Despite all of the virtual tools to keep us connected, there is still an out of sight, out of mind culture in my company. While I'm not fully remote, how does someone in person eight to 10 days a month be seen as a top player?"

Carrie Collins:

Sure, that's a great question. So when you're not physically together every day, both the leader and the members of the team have to be more intentional about how you engage. So let's think about it from this student or person's perspective. Participate actively in meetings and conversation. Make sure you ask questions, offer ideas, offer to help your colleagues, have one-on-ones with your colleagues if there's an area where you think you could be beneficial to the work that they're doing. Ask for feedback. And I think most importantly for this question is use your time with your manager well. You want to make sure that when your manager, your leader leaves that meeting, they go, "Wow, that was a really efficient and effective use of my time." So to do that, really think specifically about what you're going to tackle in your upcoming meeting with your manager. Talk about priority, confirm that those are still in align with what the manager thinks you're working on.

Talk about your challenges and offer any ideas that you've had to overcome those challenges. Are there opportunities or leverage opportunities to discuss your professional development? And also, you can talk to your manager about what you're learning rather than giving a play-by-play of everything you did during the week. We tend to focus so much on activity instead of on outcome. And if we can talk with our managers about the outcomes and using that time really, really effectively, the value that you bring to the organization is going to be clear every time you sit down on a Zoom screen or in a Zoom box across from that manager.

Anita Brick:

I see that in theory, but how do you make it practical so that you also keep the attention of the manager? Because I'm sure the manager has lots of other things and we can get distracted on both sides of the Zoom box.

Carrie Collins:

Right. How do we do it practically for meetings? So I used to have a tactic in my early part of my business that talked about looking ahead. Look at your day 24 hours in advance and see what do I have coming up? What meetings do I have? What things do I need to be prepared for? You also should look ahead probably a week to two weeks and say, "Okay, I have this meeting coming up. How am I going to show up in that meeting? What things do I want to know? What ideas do I have to bring?" So rather than simply stumbling into a meeting, you are using some prep time effectively to best position yourself. So I used to have, you can do this by setting a calendar appointment to prep for meetings. You can put it on a digital to-do list, you can set an alarm on your iPhone, but however you like to be reminded by creating that opportunity to really center yourself and think about what you want to cover, you are going to get far more out of those meetings and present yourself far better than if you just dash into the Zoom box and say, "Hey, hey, I'm here, I'm here," and hope the meeting goes well.

Anita Brick:

Okay. So along with this, there were a couple questions around this, but psychological safety is a big deal. And this is from another boothy and she said, "We had psychological safety before a private equity firm purchased us. That is no longer true. What is something I can do as a starting point when I'm not a member of the leadership team?"

Carrie Collins:

You might not be able to change the culture of the entire organization, but you can certainly influence the experience that people have when they work with you. And these can be small but meaningful moments. Ask somebody how they're doing and actually listen to the answer. Make space, provide opportunities for people to disagree. I talk about in the book is my work wife. We have worked together for almost 15 years and she disagrees with almost everything that I say, I suppose not everything, but we have these raucous disagreements that make other people sort of sit up and sit back and go, but we push each other to make the right decision. She feels comfortable to push back and I feel comfortable to push back. We have created that area of psychological safety that people feel comfortable in disagreeing. So make sure that while private equity may have taken over your entire company within the little ecosystem that you control, certainly setting the stage for disagreement is a really great way to build that psychological safety.

And then another option is to give people credit. I'm fond of saying things like, "Well, Sally had this brilliant idea." And it might sound a little flip, but you're always throwing out those people's names who have made it so that one, you or your team look great and that the work gets done at a really high level.

Anita Brick:

So there seem to be some issues about micromanagement and whether it comes from a manager or whether it comes from an AI manager. So let's start with the human. In our distributed team environment, I feel micromanaged like never before. The funny thing is my manager is the same. My performance ratings are very high. I don't know what to do and how to manage that. And when I ask for feedback, it's usually punitive.

Carrie Collins:

So without knowing more about the situation, it's a little difficult to provide specific information.

Anita Brick:

Sure, of course, of course.

Carrie Collins:

What I will say is that I am a huge fan of what I've called the delegation framework. I find that people struggle with delegation to overcome micromanagement across all kinds of organizations at all kinds of levels. If you're the employee and you're really struggling with micromanagement, I would suggest if you're reading the book, the delegation matrix, but if you're not, then what that means is listing your responsibilities of your role and making a determination, well, I should be able to make this decision on my own, which then we call a green zone, or I need someone else, my manager, my leader to approve this so I can't make the decision on my own, so that's a red zone. So if you can identify that rather than asking for feedback, which is difficult for a lot of people to give constructively and helpfully anyway, go back to your manager to say, "I'd like to propose this framework that I make these decisions without your input.

And while I may come to you for questions, I am going to be accountable for these decisions, but these decisions, the red ones, I need your ultimate approval before proceeding. I will come to you with recommendations or my thoughts, but this way I know what I am allowed or empowered to do, and I also know where that line is that I can't cross." I mean, ideally, Anita, the leader is doing this with their individual team members, but if your leader is not doing this, then there's no reason why a team member can't take it upon themselves to craft this matrix and go back to their boss and say, "This is what I see." And if nothing else, it should open the door to a dialogue.

Anita Brick:

I like that. It's super interesting because it really is one thing to have a human being. So if I'm having a conversation with you, and you seem like a lovely person and very intelligent and all of that, you and I can meet somewhere. But if you are managing me through technology, or not you, but you're using AI to manage me through technology, AI may not be able to interpret what my deliverables are or objectives. It might get it wrong. Have you dealt with that yet? I mean, this is from a friend of CareerCast. I just haven't dealt with or heard anyone being micromanaged by AI and having that really count toward their rating. Have you heard of that or is this person just ahead of the curve?

Carrie Collins:

I think they're ahead of the curve actually, because I was scratching my head about that. And actually, to be truthful, the first thing I thought of was, does that mean that someone feels as though they have become over-reliant on AI to do their job? But it doesn't sound like that's what -

Anita Brick:

No, no.

Carrie Collins:

That's what this question is. But I mean, if it's AI tools built into web platforms and databases or whatever, and this person feels as though they're being held accountable to these types of measurements because of the AI, one, I haven't encountered it. Two, I can see it coming down the pike. So if you're in sales and you use Salesforce, is it that somehow an AI bot has been created or agents, excuse me, that says, "Oh, I see you're not making your metrics. Have you tried doing this, this,

Anita Brick:

And this?" Oh, interesting. Interesting.

Carrie Collins:

I can see the evolution getting there, but it's a really great question, Anita. I don't know that I have an answer other than if it is not a performance-based micromanagement, then you're probably in a pretty good position to ignore it. But if they are

Anita Brick:

Saying - Right, there you go. There you go.

Carrie Collins:

They're not writing your review. But if it is saying the first quarter's over, you're supposed to be at 25% of your sales goals. And I'm a Salesforce user, so I'm not taking their name in vain, but if somehow the AI agent says you're only 13% of your goal and you should be at 25, then well, ask the AI for help. See what it's... Okay, what do you recommend? There's probably ways to turn the AI to be to your advantage, but honestly, I haven't seen or heard of this enough to really give more than that off the top of my head speculation.

Anita Brick:

No, no, it's okay. So here are two questions, and they're both related to being the person who should, in air quotes, have all the answers. The first one is from an employee's point of view, and the second is from a founder's point of view. Let's talk about those. So an alum said, "I am starting in strategy consulting and I'm supposed to be the person with the answers. How can I expand my learner's mindset without looking foolish and like they made a mistake in hiring me?"

Carrie Collins:

It's really interesting. And I think this is something that, and I know Anita, you said you read the book. This is something I really struggled with. I'm a type A perfectionist and I like to be seen as an expert, and so embracing a learner mindset been a challenge for me. The best way to respond to something in that situation is the person's a consultant, they're being asked a question by a client, it's the whole buy yourself some time. I say this all the time, Anita, I've probably said it three times today, is that's a great question. And I remember doing something like that for another client or I remember just... Just buy yourself some time and say, let me look into that and get back to you. And that helps you, one, not speak out of turn. Two, acknowledge that what they're bringing up is a good point, and three, giving yourself a little time and space to figure out the answer.

Nobody expects you to have all the answers. It's I think when you take on that expert mindset instead and start pontificating about something that you either only know about tangentially or you're wrong, that would put you in a far worse position than if you just said, "Gosh, I haven't thought about that question in a while," or something along those lines, and giving yourself some time to go back and find the answers. No one's going to fault you for that.

Anita Brick:

I agree. I think that people need to also be really careful to not get off of that call or that Zoom call or that conversation, jump onto AI and use that as the foundation of the answer because number one, it's easy to tell if something is AI predominant, if it's predominantly AI and it could be wrong. What encouragement would you give someone to find ways in addition to AI to find that answer?

Carrie Collins:

Listen, I'm a big proponent of AI, largely because it has made me incredibly more efficient. I was always an efficient person, but it has cut through a lot of the noise for me. I think in a case like this, do some research, whether that's looking at your own files, maybe you did in fact do something like this for a client. So I'll often go back and go, "Ah, I remember something," and pulling my own files, seeing what I did. If I've never done it before, my first thought is to say, "Have I done something similar? Have I done a project or approached a problem that's similar that I can take that strategy and rethink it?" I'll do some research, which these days, but typically means Googling, right? What else am I seeing out there? And then you can formulate, pull all that together and formulate a response and then run it through AI and say, "What am I missing?

Poke holes in this. How can I make this stronger?" So you're not relying on AI for the answer exclusively, but you're leveraging that ability to have a though partner in finding the answer that will work best for your client and for their particular situation.

Anita Brick:

That makes sense. And given that this is a person new to strategy consulting, they could also apply what they learned when they were in industry, even if their clients were internal.

Carrie Collins:

Oh, absolutely. 100%. The other great resource is I'm a member of two networking groups, and go talk to peers, go talk to fellow consultants, go talk to former colleagues that you may have stayed in touch with, ask them for opinions. You don't have to give away client information or significant details, but hey, and by the way, I never like the, I want to pick your brain.

Anita Brick:

I totally agree, Carrie. I'm like, "No, don't do that. I need it."

Carrie Collins:

So what I say is, "I'd love to tap into your expertise and see what your peers, what your colleagues think." That's another beauty of networking groups. You never know then somebody might say, "Oh, you're working on that project. Huh, I need that for somebody else." So I'm always thinking about ways to expand and build and strengthen your network.

Anita Brick:

Okay, so now let's look at it the other side. And here is a founder, happens to be an alum, a founder of a health tech startup with an AI focus. Most of the people are young and early in their careers. They expect me to have the definitive answers on just about everything. How can I help them take more ownership while letting them know I am here for them? You talk a lot about the framework around delegation, but if someone is reticent to take ownership, how do you help someone with less experience so they don't fall and crash, but that they can start taking on more ownership and gain more confidence?

Carrie Collins:

I love the word pilot. We do a lot of things where I say, "Let's just pilot it." So one way is to, assuming that the health tech company has the runway to do this, is well, why don't you pilot that? Allow people to find their way in lower stakes activities, knowing that you're there for them, but give them free rein, encourage them to take on the project, but knowing that it's not going to make or break the company. Now, if this health tech company is not in a position to do that where every project matters, and maybe it's my legal training, but if an employee asks the question, then respond with a question, "What do you think?" And I know that can be frustrating, but this is how people learn. I'll never forget, I was a little baby lawyer. I went into one of the senior partners with a question and he said, "And what did your research find?" I went, "Oh, oh, I was supposed to go find..." I mean, this is from over 20 years ago, and I can still picture that partner, his office, and me going, "Well, shoot, I should have thought about that." Instead of giving them an answer, "What do you think we should do?

What options have you considered? What would you recommend?" You're still showing that you're there, you're going to support them, but that you need to make them earn your expertise and your knowledge bit by bit rather than unloading on them. I have found, especially as a type A, that people will ask a lot, "Well, what should I do?" One of my favorite answers is, "It's your call," and it can be really hard to do that and to say that, but people aren't going to grow if you don't give them the opportunity to do so.

Anita Brick:

I agree. There are a couple of other questions that... The one that gave me pause is here's a leader, first time manager, small team, and they're in different areas of the US. So it's not like they have a 14-hour time difference. They can meet at times that would work for all of them. They just seem to feel a bit more disconnected than they used to be, and some have expressed feeling lonely. A couple of ideas where we could help that person get started?

Carrie Collins:

The impulse is always, "Well, let's have more meetings." That may, in fact, adding a meeting may in fact be the case, but do you remember, we were all on lockdown for the pandemic. I mean, how many virtual scavenger hunts did you do, right? And my work wife is the most competitive person, and I remember we did one, it was like, "Go find a bandaid," and she would stand up and run through her house. But those things are fun and cheesy, and I mean, there are so many now. A virtual museum tour, I remember at one point, if it's that you want people to, this is going to sound silly, but if you want people to be connected together at the same time, then those kind of team building activities where it's not about work, it's about learning about each other, developing those legendary work stories when you go on road trips, there's always a road trip story.

So developing those opportunities are really fun, and a lot of them can be done either at no cost or low cost. A way to start that might be to do a quick anonymous Google form survey and say, "If you could do anything, would you go tour a museum? Would you go paint pottery? Would you go take a cooking class?" Whatever, put together a few choices and then see what comes back from your team. Okay, so if there's three people and each person picks something different, then you have the next three months of programming.

Anita Brick:

That's a good point.

Carrie Collins:

You can try some of those things. The other thing is during your regular meetings, start with a question like the icebreaker question. There was one question I used at a retreat once. It was like, "If you were a vegetable, what kind of vegetable would you be?" They're ridiculous questions, but they're super fun. Again, that's where the inside jokes start, and it'll take five minutes at the beginning or five minutes at the end of a meeting to do that. And if the manager, she could switch it up, right? Nobody thinks anything is different. And then at the end of the eight minutes before the end of the meeting, the manager says, "Okay, everybody, I would like to know." And people are like, "What is happening? What is going on?" And then at the next meeting, the manager starts with a silly question. Again, it's not meant to forge lifelong bonds that mean everybody will be at everybody's weddings, but it's a fun way for people to start to get to know one another and to feel a little less alone.

Anita Brick:

I would agree with you. In our staff meeting, we rotate who's facilitating, and we have an opening question and a closing question, and it could be anything. And if you want to go ahead and be prepared, you look at the Google Doc. I tend not to do that. I like to just be a little bit more spontaneous. One thing that you said, and it's something that I can relate to, and I think a lot of people who are listeners can relate to, is that we are competitive. I remember in the book, you mentioned that early in your career, one of the deans told you that even if you are the smartest person in the room, which would not be out of the realm of possibility for people who listen to CareerCast, your job is to make each person feel like they are the smartest person in the room.

How is it possible to do that authentically? And this MBA student said, "I appreciate your help."

Carrie Collins:

Sure. And look, it's not like this dean is the one who invented this question, right? People surround themselves. No,

Anita Brick:

I understand.

Carrie Collins:

I remember, but how do you do that? I remember really being like, "What does that even mean?" So look, what I have found is if you're the leader trying to, assuming maybe it's a new team or you've had new people come in, is what's each person's sort of superpower? Once you've identified what that person's seeming superpower is, then you know, well, whether one, you have that superpower or you don't, and that's your go-to person. So let me give you an example. I went to law school because I was told there would be no math. Math is not my strong suit. So typically when we're having a meeting about something and yes, I can whip out my calculator or whatever, or just sometimes there's a mathematical or numerical component to it, there's somebody in the room who I go, "Oh, you know me in math, so-and-so, George, help me figure this out." People know George is good at math and people know that I'm not good at math, and that's okay that I'm relying on George.

You want to be able to find a way to genuinely recognize what each person's knowledge, experience, or perspective is that's different from your own. It's to get the best thinking from the people who are in the room with you.

Unfortunately, Anita, we may find that you don't always have the right people in the room, but assuming that you do, then what are you getting from these folks? What can you get from these folks that will only make what your team is doing better because it compliments or augments the knowledge that you have? It doesn't supplant it or diminish it. It's

Anita Brick:

A good point, and I think it's also each person's responsibility to bring that to the table.

Carrie Collins:

Yes.

Anita Brick:

Whatever their superpower is, sometimes people are hesitant like, "Well, everybody can do that." I think part of it is that as well. Do you have time for one more question?

Carrie Collins:

I do.

Anita Brick:

Okay, great. When you think about being out of sight and top of mind, what are three things you would advise individuals to do to be visible and valuable and valued when not in the office five days a week and sometimes not in the office at all?

Carrie Collins:

I touched on these earlier, but Anita, I think there's magic in threes, so I love that this is a question about threes. One is participate. Don't sit in a virtual meeting, slouch down, barely paying attention, playing solitaire on your phone. Participate, share your ideas, ask questions, compliment your colleagues, make sure that you are participating in the team and with the work that you do. The second is to build relationships. This can happen through those icebreaker questions. Maybe you discover that there's another member of the Bay Hive in your team, then you can reach out directly, start to build relationships. And finally, number three, use your time with your manager well. As I had said earlier, getting yourself prepared, making sure that you are utilizing the time with your manager in the most effective way possible so that you get the information you need to continue to do your work, and the manager leaves the meeting going, "Wow, this person really has their act together, but is open to feedback and guidance." Those three things, participation, building relationships, and effective use of your manager's time, they'll help you stay connected and help you contribute to the team, but without falling into the trap of trying to prove that you're so busy, you're so busy, right?

You're getting the work done in a meaningful way, you're demonstrating outcomes, and you are a part of the team.

Anita Brick:

I love that. Okay, I said that was the last question, but I do actually have one more.

Carrie Collins:

Sure.

Anita Brick:

And that is, is there anything I didn't ask you that you were hoping I would?

Carrie Collins:

Oh, wow. That is a-

Anita Brick:

And the answer could be no. I was brilliant and I asked everything, but I suspect there might be something.

Carrie Collins:

I just think that it's really hard to be a leader. I think if you're not a leader or you haven't yet reached that point in your career, one, it looks much easier than it is. Well, they get to make all the decisions. And when you do become a leader, it can be really overwhelming. It's certainly time-consuming, and it can be demoralizing at times. But what I love about leadership and being a leader is the positive impact that you can have on other people's professional development, on guiding, on mentoring, on sharing your expertise with people who are interested and open to it, and watching them take what you've said or shared and developing it in their own way and charting their own career path. That is one, if not the most rewarding aspect of leadership. What I tried to do in the book was take that and create this framework so that you can still do it if you are just meeting by Zoom boxes, just take Some intentionality and some thoughtful strategies to do it.

Anita Brick:

I like that. Reading the book, I realize that you are courageous and fierce, but you've laid out a framework that for maybe some people who are not as fierce and maybe not as courageous, they have that framework to help elevate them too.

Carrie Collins:

Well, thank you. I absolutely hope that it's good for both the fearless and those who need to build their ferocity just a bit.

Anita Brick:

All right, there you go. And thank you. Thank you for writing the book. Thank you for spending time with us today. There is a lot of practical advice, and at some level, the bottom of all of this or at the foundation of all of this is that we also need to remember our humanity. And you clearly bring that forward in the book.

Carrie Collins:

Thank you. Thank you, Anita. It's been my pleasure. I've really enjoyed

Anita Brick:

It. Thanks again. And thank you all for listening. This is Anita Brick with CareerCast at Chicago Booth. Keep advancing.