Overcoming the Imposter Syndrome

Anita Brick: Hi, this is Anita Brick, and welcome to CareerCast at Chicago Booth. To help you advance in your career. Today we're delighted to be speaking with Dr. Valerie Young. She is an internationally recognized expert on the imposter syndrome and author of the award winning book, which, by the way, Valerie, I loved, The Secret Thoughts of Successful Women: Why Capable People Suffer from the Imposter Syndrome and How to Thrive in Spite of It.

Valerie has spoken at over 85 colleges and universities in the US, Canada and Japan and to a really diverse global organization list, I would say such as Boeing, Apple, EBS and Facebook. Valerie is a former manager of strategic marketing and communications at Cigna Corporation, and she earned her doctorate in education from the University of Massachusetts. Valerie, thank you so much.

And, you know, it was funny. I was finishing up your book on the bus, actually, and the bus driver said, what's that all about? I said, well, I'm going to go to the back. When I come out, I'll come back and report to you. And he was very excited. This is clearly for a lot of different people. And it resonated. It was funny. Yesterday I was thinking, how dare I interview Valerie Young? Oh my gosh, she is like this big, big, big name. Who am I to do that? And then I'm like, oh, imposter syndrome.

Valerie Young: But I love that the bus driver asked that question. First of all, thank you so much for having me, Anita, but I love that he asked that question for two reasons. Because people who are curious get farther in life. Number one, I love curious people, even if you are just curious. But number two, you know, hopefully God, despite the horrible title Random House gave my name, that there are a lot of men who also struggle with imposter feeling angry.

Anita Brick: Not everybody knows what that means. Maybe you can give us a short definition of imposter syndrome.

Valerie Young: Absolutely. Well, imposter phenomenon, as it is more accurately known in the world of psychology, is this core belief that, you know, deep down, I just know that I'm really not as intelligent or capable or talented as people give me credit for. So we dismiss compliments. We dismiss evidence of our achievements, whether that's good grades, degrees, awards, promotions, positive employee feedback and so on because we have this fear that sooner or later we are going to be found out. And that's essentially the imposter syndrome.

Anita Brick: Okay, I found the questions that were submitted kind of interesting because the underlying theme is the imposter syndrome. And then different students and alumni and friends have embedded it in different ways. There was a student and he said, I am in the process of transitioning into a new role where I have transferable skills and I'm not landing the offer. I've been told that I seem hesitant and interviewers wonder why. What can I do to correct that impression?

Valerie Young: Well, first of all, any time you are entering a new role, whether it's taking on a new project at work or starting a new business or new profit center, or changing careers and trying to transition into a new kind of field, those are the moments, Anita, where an imposter feelings come up. Know you're not a quote unquote expert.

And so there's a certain amount of winging it that goes on. So it's a normal response. And I really want people to understand it as oh yeah, it makes sense that I would feel this way in this situation just to know that. And I don't know if it's a man or woman, a man, because he seems hesitant.

So I wasn't sure if that hesitant means sending out this vibe that I'm not even sure I really want. This could be related to imposter syndrome. You know, sometimes we hold back and we think it's here, when in fact there could be this little voice in the back of our head that's saying, do I really want this? Do I want to manage ten more people?

Do I want to be traveling constantly, etc., but we think it's the fear of talking. But if it is hesitant to to mean confidence, the good news is this person has been told that they seem hesitant. So to get that feedback is outstanding because it gives you something to work with. Really, it comes down to any core skill set you need to practice.

I would videotape yourself being interviewed. You know, I mean, in, you know, a fake interview, what is the impression that you're giving people? And then you have to play a bit of a role in any interview. You know, you may not feel super confident, which is understandable. Imagine yourself as some, you know, famous person who you see is very confident and project that persona for that moment and just pull up that confidence from your core and project that even though you don't necessarily feel it in the moment, it's really about practicing confidence, looking them dead in the eye, sounding like you have conviction. Do a before and after video and see how you like the difference.

Anita Brick: I also like your point about do you really want the job? Because if you don't really want the job, the hesitancy could be just that. And why waste everybody's time?

Valerie Young: Yeah, exactly. You know, I think that we're taught that we should all want to just continually climb that ladder. And maybe you do, or there might be something about the person interviewing you. I mean, I certainly took a job once, Anita, where, you know, I had this gut feeling about my hiring manager, this VP of marketing. It wasn't at Cigna, by the way. It was another company. This little voice was saying, you know, these are crazy people. And I was right. I took the job and I was right. So, you know, you got to pay attention to your gut as well. It's a good point.

Anita Brick: There's a related question about level. This alum said, is it possible I have reached my limit for growth, or is this more likely a self-limiting belief? If the latter, what advice would you have for me? My role is two levels below the C-suite at a global company.

Valerie Young: Yeah, that's a great question. I don't know this person. I would have lots of questions to ask about the actual situation. I don't think any of us have reached our limit for growth. It all depends on what we really want. If your goal, in fact, is to get to the C-suite, then I would say you need to get feedback from the people in a position to get you there.

You know, what is it going to take for you to get to that, and what kinds of projects and assignments and initiatives or, you know, what is it you need to do? Even personality changes to get there. And this is where really good executive coaches can come in handy. You know, the kind of coach you can give you very direct feedback on ways you may be sabotaging your career inadvertently. We're turning people off. I mean, there's a host of reasons why people don't move up in organizations, but I think we underplay the importance of people skills in those situations. So it might be a function of working on people skills.

Anita Brick: I think that's really true. Having someone who will give you that feedback, where the risk is very low, that it will actually ripple into your performance reviews, how others see you and so on. I agree, I think it's really, really important.

Valerie Young: Let me connect this back to impostor syndrome, Anita, because that would be sometimes I hear people as they're dismissing or downplaying evidence of their abilities. They'll say, oh, it's just because they like me. That's why they gave me positive feedback or that's why they said my presentation was great or that's why they promoted me as if likability wasn't a skill, a legitimate skill.

And I learned this the first time I interviewed for my corporate job. I didn't realize how terribly I'd done that. Called the contact, who they admired, who recommended me, and they said, wow, she's really stiff. And I was shocked. You know, I was just trying to be very intent on answering every question correctly. And, I mean, I'm sure I didn't smile.

You know, I was really nervous. And he's like, no, no, she's really nice. She's really funny, you know? And so they let me come back for an interview and I brought my personality in the second time, which I did not do the first time. Well. And later I became a hiring manager. And I always told people to people, all things being equal, or one person even having less qualifications on their resume, the person with the better personality would almost always get the job because people are human and they're sitting there thinking, who do I want to spend 40 or 50 hours a week with?

Anita Brick: Hmhm I agree, we spend a lot of time with people. That's why the ability to engage is so important. It comes back to, like you said, interpersonal skills, relationship building skills, and dare I say, likability.

Valerie Young: But even smiling can go a long way. Got it.

Anita Brick: So this is related to that promotional cycle as well. This time, an alum said, I keep being promised a promotion, and when the time comes, I am told to wait until next year. This has happened twice. How do I discern if it is me or my manager holding me back with the overlay of the imposter syndrome?

Valerie Young: I wonder what part of it. We don't know because he's not here. If he's holding back, you know? Absolutely. You have to wonder that given the context of our conversation here, perhaps deep down the person really does know the answer to them, that they are in some way holding themselves back. If they don't, the only way to discern that is to have an honest conversation. This is where I want to be. I'm concerned because this has been put off for two years.

You know, I really want to make an impact on this organization. What I can add to the bottom line, you know, really kind of make your case, see what comes out of it, and at least you'll get the information you need to know whether or not it makes sense to continue to pursue that organization and that promotion.

Anita Brick: That totally makes sense. There is another question about the imposter Syndrome, an alum said I have read about the imposter syndrome and it describes me. How do I find the root cause so I can fix it?

Valerie Young: The root cause? Well, here's actually the bad news to this person: there is no one root cause. But the cause is not necessarily the solution. Because, you know what? If the cause was messages, something horrible your teacher said to you, you know, in seventh grade that you'll never amount to anything. I mean, how do you unring that particular bell?

In my book and in my talk city, I talk about seven perfectly good reasons why you might feel like a fraud. And I intentionally frame it that way because I'm trying to normalize it. So, for example, for this person, it might be the fact that they're in a field that fuels self-doubt, technology, medicine, two examples of fields where the information is changing so rapidly that if you step away for six months, things could be very different.

When you come back, you know, no human could ever possibly keep up. I do think it's helpful to understand the reasons so you can put it into a social context. Say the only woman, for example, in your organization or your level in organization, you're the only person of color, you know, etc. those can also lead you to be more susceptible to impostor feeling.

It's important to understand the source so that you can kind of look around and go, well, of course I feel this way, why wouldn't I? In this situation, I would hate for this person to think that just because they know the source, that then they can kind of root it out. Understanding the causes is important. So you don't just think it's all about you, but that's just a piece of the puzzle.

Anita Brick: There were two questions that roll from this, and one was from a student who said, I know this might sound cliche, but I feel like a bit of a fraud at work and at school. How can I get past this, by the way? I feel that I'm not the only one.

Valerie Young: You're definitely not the only one who feels this way. There was a study that came out. It was 80% of CEOs in the UK, and 82% of managing directors have these feelings as well. Understanding that first of all, the name for these feelings, which in and of itself I could speak for myself, was very liberating to find that out when I was in graduate school, like, oh my God, there's a name and other people feel that way.

I mean, that alone was tremendously helpful to me. That's also a great start right there. Getting past it. I mean, there are students going back to kind of understanding the sources of imposter feeling just being a student, period, especially if you're a graduate student, makes you more susceptible to imposter feelings. So, I mean, you're in this environment where your knowledge and intellect is literally being tested on a daily basis. Putting it back in that context, I think can help as well.

Anita Brick: I like that here is something I thought was pretty self honest. An alum said, I work for a great company and I recently interviewed a potential new colleague. As I read her resume and listened to her accomplishments, it made me wonder how I ever got hired here. How do I push that off?

Valerie Young: Yeah, it is a great question. And here's the thing. There's always going to be people who have done more than you and done less than you. That's just life. I would go back to the notion of personality, that perhaps you were hired, in part because you brought kind of that to the table. Other people may be saying the exact same thing about you.

You know, if you wonder why you were hired, I would ask the question. A doctoral student came up to me at. I think it was Western University in Ontario. We had a little reception afterwards, and she came up and she said, you know, I don't know why I'm here. I don't know why they let me in. Everyone is more qualified.

I keep telling everyone I don't belong here. And then her eyes filled up with tears and she said, and they're starting to believe me. Oh, no. And I said, and that's what happens when you constantly tell other people that you're not competent. And she's like, I really don't know why they let me in. I said, you need to get that question answered because you can't move forward. She was so stuck on this. Why did they let me? And I said, go back, sit down, have an honest conversation with the people who advocated for you to get in and say, why did you choose me? What do you see in me? They're used to graduate student struggling. I mean, she really needed to get that information.

So I would advise this alumni to go find out as well, because when you think about it, it's actually a professor engineering professor at Carnegie Mellon, originally from Argentina. And this is important to the story because he said, when they pick you for the job, they don't tell you why they picked you. You know, they interviewed other candidates, why you and not the other candidates. He found out once he got the job that the dean at the time was a huge fan of Argentine tango. He said, haha, that was one of those imposter stories about, well, that's why they picked me. But he made a good point. We don't know why they picked us, so go find out.

Anita Brick: Very good point. It can be so many different things. Sometimes we compliment other people. We may not be as good as, you know, the super quiet person, but that's not why they hired us. But if we compare ourselves to someone who's strengths and weaknesses are very different from ours, I think it could create a really negative narrative.

Valerie Young: I think those are really good points. I second that good.

Anita Brick: I like that there were three questions related to the negative impact in a very particular area. For people who feel or sense this imposter syndrome. First one is around negotiating, and the students said, I'm getting close to a job offer, and I know that a weakness of mine is negotiating, what advice would you have to help me increase my comfort level to ask for what.

Valerie Young: I want is a great question, and if you don't think you're worth what you want, then it's going to be harder to ask that question. I am not an expert in negotiation. This is something that I, you know, also find difficult. I don't know if this is a woman or not. There's a really good book called Women Don't Ask, which will really document the significant financial consequences of starting out in a career not asking.

And women are much more likely to just take the opening salary, the offered salary. And over the course of 20 years it was over $1 million left on the table. This is not my expertise, but that's okay, because I look at this question like, well, I don't know the answer, but I'm smart enough to figure it out. So I just went to Google and I said, you know, best books on salary negotiation.

Go learn from people for whom this is their expertise, because it's a skill set. And there's actually one that was literally like exactly the words to say, because I think we're always afraid, you know, they're going to come back with something and then we're not going to know what to say. A line that I like to use. Anita, you've given me a lot to think about and then step away to gather my thoughts, and.

Anita Brick: I like that. I totally agree with that. I'm curious, though, from your point of view, how do you neutralize some of the impact of the imposter syndrome to walk into the negotiation, even armed with all that information in a way that makes you both credible and comfortable?

Valerie Young: Think of it like an athlete. You know how you have to maybe kind of psych yourself up before the big game, whether that's make a list of your accomplishments, make a list of the ways that you can contribute to that organization. My experience, when I got an agent for my book, she reached out to me. Actually, I spoke at Columbia Chronicle of Higher Ed and the newspaper covered my talk.

They wrote an article and kind of out of that, I got approached by different publishers and an agent, kind of a back story, now she got me interviews with seven major publishing houses in New York, and she said, you're going to be nervous at first. And I was nervous in the first one. I mean, the irony, right? I'm having this imposter moment while I'm pitching this book on imposter syndrome.

That's great. But I had never interviewed, you know, like they asked me where I saw myself in a year and I gave some, you know, I didn't even know what I said. But I realized the next day the answer is working on my next bestselling book. But I didn't think I'd ever been in that case. But she said, you'll get better as you go along.

Well, by the second day, my attitude was, they should be so lucky to have my book because I've been through a few rounds and I gained confidence. So anything you could do to pump yourself up, do a few practice rounds, get some friends to help you see you really walk in prepared and breathe right.

Anita Brick: You've got to exhale. Here's a question from a student and he said, in your book you talk about procrastination. I am a big time procrastinator. I don't push myself. I can't really fail. What advice would you have for someone who has a hard time getting and staying going? If I don't really go full out, I won't fail.

Valerie Young: First of all, I just want to say good for you for having this insight to connect those dots, because procrastination is one of a number of what Pauline plans. And Suzanne, are the two psychologists who coined the term imposter phenomenon. They describe procrastination as one of the coping and protecting mechanisms that we usually unconsciously use to avoid being found out.

So the student is absolutely right. Procrastination helps you avoid rejection, ridicule of your work, failure. Of course, you wait till the very last minute, especially if that turns into never starting or never finishing. I always tell my audiences that when I was supposed to be writing my dissertation, I had the cleanest house in Northampton, Massachusetts, because I would rather do anything.

It was a famous procrastinator, then sit down and work on that huge project. What shifted for me, Anita, was some actually very tangible techniques for dealing with procrastination. First of all, I kept using the term I'm supposed to so people would say, well, what do you do? And you want to go to lunch? And I say, well, I'm supposed to be working on my dissertation, but sure.

What do you do in the summer when I'm supposed to be working on my dissertation? It wasn't until I got out my calendar and did what's known as time blocking. Where I crossed out, I don't remember. It was like Monday, Tuesday, Thursday. Were writing days non-negotiable? Not available. Those days were blocked just for that. Log out the time.

Make an appointment with yourself. Number two is to set a timer. We think we need these huge, huge chunks of time, but so much of our work can get done in these incremental blocks of 30 minutes, 45 minutes, an hour. Set a timer for 45 minutes or an hour because the hardest part is getting started. And when the timer goes off, you can stop.

You fulfilled your obligation to yourself. You've put in the 45 minutes or an hour, but more than likely you're going to keep going because it was the getting started part that was so hard. And then lastly, I would get some kind of an accountability buddy. You know, there has to be some consequences for not starting. So if you have somebody else who you make a commitment to hang up the phone, okay, we're both going to do this for 45 minutes or an hour.

That can help. But let me just tell you a quick story about procrastination. This is actually a student story. Years ago, a young woman really wanted this coveted internship in Washington, D.C. to get it, she had to write this major, heady essay. You know, meaning of life, world peace, deep stuff. She had six months to do it. She started on it the day before, got it in overnight mail, didn't get the internship.

So how procrastination protects her. She can say to herself, well, I'm disappointed, but I'm hardly surprised because they didn't really reflect my best effort. But the rub is, even if she had been successful, she wouldn't have felt deserving because she would have like few fooled them again. And when I get down to Washington, sooner or later they're going to find out I'm really just an imposter.

Anita Brick: So insidious. Certainly not an expert in this area, but I would speculate or postulate that a lot of this stuff is happening at an unconscious level, but then it manifests obviously in the conscious level.

Valerie Young: I see imposter syndrome as a business imperative because there are behaviors associated with imposter syndrome, whether that's what I call flying under the radar, not speaking up, not asking questions, not sharing or ideas, not going for advanced promotions or assignments. You know, because you can stay small. No one can hurt you or judge you if you kind of keep that low profile.

Procrastination is another one never starting or finishing the book. The thesis, the dissertation, the degree, the painting. Because if something's always in progress, again, no one can judge you. I'm still formulating my theory. You know, self-sabotage. There are people who show up late for an important meeting or interview, or who are chronically late, or who, despite having all of the abilities to do something, they fall back on what psychologists refer to as low effort syndrome.

Because we all know bright, particularly young people who, you know, steadfastly refused to apply themselves academically. And the thinking here, unconsciously, is I'd rather people think I'm lazy than stupid. Wow, that's a good point. And if I try and I fail, then they'll quote unquote. No, it's a little insidious.

Anita Brick: There is a question from an alum, which is, I think, related as well. It's about making a mistake. And this alumnus said making a mistake is not fun at all and runs counter to my family's culture. How can I learn to make mistakes without feeling like a fake and failure?

Valerie Young: No one likes to make mistakes, and there's also levels of mistake. You're my brain surgeon. I want you to be a perfectionist. I really don't want you to make a mistake, you know? That said, you can do everything you possibly can to prevent a mistake, but sometimes mistakes are going to happen in terms of learning from it. It's a couple of things.

Years ago, there was a column in The New York Times called hers, and Betty Rollins, who was an ABC news correspondent at the time, wrote this article titled Chronic Self-doubt Why does it Affect so many women? And I would say, you know, why does it look so many quote unquote imposters? She went on to talk about this. I'm in over my head, and they're going to find out feelings she'd had throughout her entire professional career.

And she said, you know, I asked this male producer who, by the way, was as competent as he thought he was if he ever worried about making a mistake and failing. So make sure, you know, kind of merrily what she said. What if you did make a mistake, you know, would you blame yourself? And he said, not sounding very sure. And so why not? And he said, well, aren't I entitled to make a mistake once in a while? And I remember Anita just reading that line over and over and over, because that was frankly new information to me and I think new information to a lot of people reminding yourself you're entitled to have an off day, to make a mistake, to be wrong, to not know all the answers, to struggle, to have to master something.

The more you can understand that you know, of course I am human. I think that that can help. The other thing that can be helpful is to think like a professional athlete. Every time they go out on the field or the court, someone's going to win and someone's going to lose. Mistakes are going to be made that might cost the game.

People don't hang up their uniform and go home. They go watch the game tape to figure out how to do things better. Next time they practice more, they get good coaching and they say we'll get them next time they shake it off. Nobody likes to make a mistake, nobody likes to fail. And you could be crushingly disappointed when that happens.

But not a shame. And that's important because the key difference between people who feel like impostors and people who don't is impostors feel shame when they make a mistake, fail, have an off day, don't get the job, mess up the interview, you know, whatever it might be. So if you gave it your best shot, you can be disappointed but not ashamed.

Anita Brick: That's a really, really important distinction. Do you have time for a couple more questions?

Valerie Young: Sure, absolutely. Can I make one more recommendation around the failure and mistakes?

Anita Brick: Sure. Valerie Young: If you google Princeton Professor Failure CV, you'll easily find this guy. And he got the idea from a woman who wrote about putting your failures CV up on the internet. And I think it was in a nature magazine. But he has his regular CV, which we always put our best foot forward, and then he has this failure CD where he lists the jobs he didn't get, the schools he was turned down to, the publications that rejected his paper, the conferences that didn't want him to come and speak, because he wanted people to understand that success is not a straight upward shot. It's more like hills and valleys and up and down and, you know, win and lose. And that's real life.

Anita Brick: You're absolutely right. And I segue into a question about some of those challenges and pitfalls. What are some potential oil challenges or pitfalls in your approach to overcoming the negative effects of imposter syndrome?

Valerie Young: As people begin to do that, what happens is people are looking for this overnight solution, the magic pill, to make all the pain go away. For years. Anita, people, maybe they do an evaluation at the end of my talk and it was overwhelmingly good evaluations. The only criticism might be what was really good, but I wish she told us more things we could do.

Now, granted, I was giving people ten things they could do, so I remember thinking, well, maybe I should get them 40 or maybe 80, like 200. Like, what's a good number? Right? Because I was giving them ten things, or they come up to the microphone after my talk and say, this is great, but is there anything else we can do?

And my response was always, of the ten things they just gave you, like, what have you tried? It was nothing. But is there anything else we could do? And I remember thinking, is it them? Is it me? I spent decades and I'm not ashamed to tell you I spent decades, like, what am I missing here? And I finally figured it out.

What they wanted was to walk in the room feeling like an imposter and walk out the room, not feeling like an imposter. And that's not how it works. Feelings are the last to change. So if you really. Good point. Feeling like an imposter, you have to stop thinking like an imposter. So there's people who will listen to this podcast and at the end they'll go, oh, I still feel like an imposter.

Well, yes, because you haven't changed your thoughts. So feelings are the last to change. See, the only difference between people who like imposters and people who don't, they're no more intelligent, capable, competent than the rest of us. It's just that in that exact same moment where we feel like an imposter, a new job, job interview, getting up to make a presentation, being challenged on our work, whatever that might be.

They're thinking different thoughts. That's it. Which is really great news, Anita, because it means all we have to do is to learn to think like non imposters.

Anita Brick: Excellent point. Keeping in mind that the answer to this question will not instantaneously make us all not imposters. What are three things that you would advise someone who wants to overcome the negative effects of imposter syndrome? What can that person begin doing today?

Valerie Young: Great. You know, it's funny. I'm actually glad you said three things, because I have taken those ten that I usually get from people, and now I give them three and they're much happier. The thing with these three is they're non-negotiable. The first thing we need to do is to normalize self-doubt, normalize imposter feelings. In other words, when you're in that moment where you're having an imposter feeling, look around, look at the circumstances, look at the situation, and recognize, well, why wouldn't I feel this way in this moment?

Also, to recognize that some of the most brilliant, accomplished people on the planet have these feelings. So guess what? You're not special. You're in a really elite club of intelligent people. And honestly, the opposite has been found to be true that the people who are the least competent often think that they are the most competent and vice versa.

So normalize it. When you're having an imposter moment, realize it for what it is so that you can shake it off a little bit more quickly. And let me just say one more thing about that. Often people think, you know, I should just keep talking about it, whether that's going to therapy and, you know, and trust me, I think there's definitely a place for therapy.

You can't share your way out of imposter feelings. You could just keep talking about it and trying, but for your entire adult life, nothing's going to shift again, because feelings are the last to change. The key is to stop thinking like an imposter. It's gonna stop feeling positive. Stop thinking like an imposter. Which means reframing.

So if you can become consciously aware of the conversation going on in your head. Anita, when you're having an imposter moment, what are the negative thoughts going through your head? What are the feelings going through your head? And then to reframe it the way a non imposter would? I sat on the airplane last week, coming back from an engagement out west next to a young woman going off to Yale University. A young African-American woman's mother was more concerned about that.

There weren't going to be a lot of folks who looked like her there, and she was already familiar with imposter syndrome, and I gave her a little free workshop that I wanted her to understand that she might show up at Yale and go, oh my God, everyone here is brilliant. You know, when you go to an elite school, whether it's University of Chicago, you know, you are among the best of the best in your high school.

And then you show up and you're one of many among the best of the best. So I told her the difference is looking around and going, oh my God, everyone here is brilliant. Versus saying, oh my God, everyone here is brilliant, this is great. I'm going to learn so much. Yeah. Imposters are crushed by even constructive criticism. Your manager, you know, tells you about things you're doing well.

And one area you need to work on. And what do we do? We walk away and we go, I suck, right? We obsess about this one right thing, right? And feel bad. People who don't feel like imposters, they seek out constructive criticism because they constantly want to get better and better and better. And even if someone says, wow, you did a great job, they're going to say something like, well, thank you so much.

What's one thing I could have done even better, right? They don't see themselves as a finished product. They see themselves as kind of this work in progress, and they constantly want to get better. Very good point, very good point. Game failure. Reframe confidence and reframe fear. You know, because what we want, Anita, is to feel confident 24/7. That's not how it works.

I mean, go back to the first one. Normalize. It's normal to be scared. It's normal to be anxious in a new situation. And when you understand that, it can take some of the anxiety of that away, well, of course I'm nervous. I've never done this before. And your body doesn't know the difference between fear and excitement, sweaty and nervous stomach.

So as you're walking up to the podium or to the job interview, you have to keep saying, I'm excited. I'm excited, and you don't have to believe it. That's okay. But would you rather say I'm excited or I'm going to die?

Anita Brick: I agree, I firmly believe that every time I am a little bit nervous before I present or even have this conversation with you today, and I reframed it by saying, you know what? For me to feel that way means that I really respect my audience and I want to give them my best, so I'm not taking anything for granted. I'm not over preparing, but I am here and present to do my best.

Valerie Young: Absolutely. That's a great reframe.

Anita Brick: Good. Anything else you'd like to share?

Valerie Young: The last thing once we normalize and then and it's a constant process of reframing, you don't just do it once or twice. You know, we're really training ourselves to look at situations the way an impostor shoots to say the right title to be wrong, to have an off day to make a mistake, etc. and then you have to kind of keep going regardless of how you feel.

And I say that, Anita, because there's a lot of people out there who say, well, I'll wait until I feel more confident to go for the promotion, to write my book, to start my business. That's not how it works. You have to jump in, even when you don't feel 100% ready, confident that you may not know everything, but you're smart enough to figure it out and to know enough.

Anita Brick: Well, this was so good. I know that there are many people who feel that way, myself included at times, to put some structure around it and some science around it, and dare I say, some compassion around it is really remarkable and very, very useful. So thank you for the work that you do, and thank you for writing the book and making the time to share your wisdom with us.

Valerie Young: I really enjoyed speaking with you and you did a great job.

Anita Brick: Thank you very much.

Valerie Young: That's very sweet. Thank you and.

Anita Brick: Thank you all for listening. This is Anita Brick with CareerCast at Chicago Booth. Keep advancing.