The Road to the Executive Suite

Anita Brick: Hi, this is Anita Brick, and welcome to CareerCast at Chicago Booth. To help you advance in your career. Today, we're delighted to be speaking with Susan Lucia Annunzio. She is president and chief executive officer of the center for High Performance. She is a strategic advisor to CEOs of leading global companies on strategy, attainment and business transformation.

Lucia partners with senior executives to increase their ability to simplify complex strategic decisions to enhance collaboration and creativity. She is a globally recognized speaker and author and thought leader on shaping and maintaining a high performance business environment. She has a very strong track record, helping leaders maximize returns on strategic, financial, and human capital investments. Thank you so much for doing this. We are so excited. We've had a ton of questions around this topic.

Susan Lucia Annunzio: Well thank you, Anita. It's my pleasure to join you and the Booth family today.

Anita Brick: There were a number of questions around critical things to consider before building a path to the executive suite. And Allen said, I've heard that it's important to be transparent with your ambitions. While I am comfortable sharing this with my company's leaders. I have seen this backfire with my dad and one of my aunts. How do you believe that being direct about your aspirations plays out in today's world? And by the way, my company's culture is open and direct.

Susan Lucia Annunzio: Well, first of all, if your company's culture is open and direct, my guess is what happened to your aunt and your dad will not happen to you. That said, I think it's important when having a conversation about your future to start by asking the person that you're speaking to, I assume your boss or your mentor, what they see as your potential within the company.

How do they see your path to success? Where do they see us fitting most and how can you be most helpful to them? A dialog could then ensue about how you might see it differently, and what gaps they might see, or what you might be missing. But I think when you're in a position in an organization with people who are above you that you respect and admire. It's important to get their take on you and where you're going.

Anita Brick: Very good point. It seems like there is a higher and higher risk. The higher and higher you go in an organization when you are looking for talent. One of the evening students asked a question which I thought was kind of interesting. I understand that the hiring risk gets higher and higher the more senior the role. I have significant experience in it and I'm now a mid-level manager. What are some specific experiences I should consider if my goal is executive level management?

Susan Lucia Annunzio: First of all, the risks. The higher and higher you go in an organization are, of course, that there are less places at the top and more people aspiring to get them. Therefore, when looking at where you want to go and what you want to do, it's important to be as well-rounded as possible. If your goal is executive management, so have you had operations experience?

Have you had obviously you're in it. So you've had functional experience. Have you had international experience at your company? International. How do you get to have experience around your company to show that you truly understand it and then are able to function in various capacities? However, I think what's most important, and I'm probably going to say this over and over and over again, is what are you passionate about?

What turns you on? What is the type of way you like to work that makes you really excited? And where can you do that? And how can you do that in a company that will allow you to do it? So, for example, I am really passionate about creating workforces that people will do their best work. I believe that will fuel the economy.

I feel that that will fuel the company countries. Excuse me that companies are in. Most importantly, I think it fuels the people in the company so that they can create products and services that can benefit the world. So when I look at my path to success, I'm always saying to myself, how can I accept an assignment, accept a job?

What is it about that assignment? What is it about that job? What is it about that teaching that is going to allow me to do what I'm passionate about? Because if you don't have that passion, if you don't go to work loving what you do every day, not every day, but most parts of every day, you're not going to be good at something. I don't believe people become great in an organization unless they love what they're trying to do.

Anita Brick: Absolutely agree. And sometimes people are just afraid to look at what their passion is, because if they are truly passionate about something, it's almost like they're afraid to try it out just in case it doesn't work. But I don't think there's another way, do you?

Susan Lucia Annunzio: I think it's true. You have to try things out and they may not work. But I think what most people do is they take what's in front of them and decide what works. And that's the long way to success. You know, I've got this really good job offer. It's going to give me this. It's going to give me that.

I'm going to get this kind of money. I'm going to live in this kind of house. But at the end of the day, you know, as Clay Christiansen would say, how are you going to measure your life? I mean, I work with CEOs. That's my client base, right? I know a whole lot of really successful people that have lots of accolades behind their name, all of the material symbols of success.

I don't meet that many happy people. I don't meet that many passionate people. I don't meet that many people who I would say have loved their job. Boy, are they proud of what they did with their life. To me, those are true markers of success. I said to my son, I'll never forget this. He was in middle school.

Middle school is a hard age group to work with, to be with their, you know, raging hormones. They don't like to learn. And he was at a school that had a headmaster of the middle school who just loved that job. He came to work with a smile on his face. He was great with the kids. Somehow he could communicate with an audience that I thought was foreign.

And I said to my son, that is a man who is truly successful. He's great at what he does. The children, the parents, the board. Everyone loves him. Everyone thinks he does a good job, and he's proud of his accomplishments. And he has a lot to show for his life that success. And what I say to the people who are listening to this, what does success look like for you? What's going to truly make you happy? Because if you're not asking that question and you end up the CFO of fortune ten, company X, Y, and Z, someday you're going to regret that decision. Yeah, I can tell you that because I talk to people who do regret those decisions.

Anita Brick: You're absolutely right. So once you do that, though, and once you find that passion, which is a ginormous thing to do, but once you get there, there are a number of questions about, okay, are there any key ingredients for faster growth? And I'll bundle this with two questions together. One was what are key ingredients for faster growth in an organization to get to the executive suite? They're both from executive MBA students. The second was: is that different for women and is there different advice for women?

Susan Lucia Annunzio: Let's use the overused word servant leadership. If you want to make it in an organization, your job in that organization is to give to it, not it to you. So what is it that that organization needs from you? How can you be of assistance? How can you help that organization achieve its goals while simultaneously achieving yours? I think the mistake people make is they say, what can the organization do for me?

Well, that organization gave you a job. Your job is to now figure out how to pay them back. How do you be the best servant leader you can be in that organization? How can you build an environment where people love to go to work every day, do their best work, use their brains so that you get extraordinary results and you stand out because it's not about you, it's about the organization, and it's about the people who work for you.

And once you can make that transformation in your head, you will be a much better leader. Simon Sinek just wrote a really good book that I would recommend to the people, and on the phone called Leaders Eat Last. He got the title from the military. The idea is if you go to a Marine Corps mess hall, what happens is when they line up to get the food, the leaders wait till everybody else is eaten.

That's a great metaphor for success. Leaders eat last. What is it as a servant leader? Do you need to do to advance your company, to advance your boss? So that your organization can succeed? If you have that mindset, you will succeed too.

Anita Brick: I love this Ted talk that was his first book.

Susan Lucia Annunzio: That was The Golden Circle. Now he has the circle of safety and both the great and going back to the Golden Circle. The Golden Circle is why organizations exist and most organizations have some stupid, you know, mission statement like to become the biggest, the best business, whatever, instead of some intrinsic purpose. When we go back to what you're passionate about, why do you exist?

What is your place on this earth? What are you going to give back? And if you can answer those questions, if you can have a Y statement about you, it will help you pick the right job and it will help you pick the right company. Because there should be alignment around why you exist and why that company exists.

Because when you have that alignment, you will succeed in the company. When you are what you stand for, why you exist is in contradiction to what that company stands for and why it exists. You're going to be knocking your head up against a brick wall, and if you got an education from the University of Chicago, you don't have to do that.

Anita Brick: Agree. How is it different for women? There's actually another question, too, that talks about how do women stand up and increase their chances? Do they have to be like men? When we hear this, I mean, you probably hear this too.

Susan Lucia Annunzio: I'm going to give an answer that probably nobody on the phone is going to like. And that is why I hate this question. Okay. Fair enough. What I used to say to my kids when they were growing up is that life has good things and bad things, but the majority of things are just is. Is it the way women who are aggressive in the workplace are seen differently than men?

Yes, that's a fact. Might that fact change over the next 20 years? Yes. The reason that fact is going to change is because the demographics are going to change. The baby boomers are the largest generation ever to have worked in the workforce. By 2020, it is predicted that baby boomers will leave generation X and Y is smaller in numbers.

So the leaders of the future will have more job opportunities to be more diverse? And 360% of that generation are women. So women are going to start taking over and it's already happening. If you look at the new CEOs being put in the C-suite. Many of them are women. Is it the right number? No. Is it too small?

Yes. Is it going to increase? Yes. But in the meantime, before that happens, if you're an aggressive woman, you will be seen differently than an aggressive man. So how do you make your point in a way that can be heard? It's if you decide. Well, I'm going to be a man anyway. Well then don't complain about being called the B-word.

If you decide you think that's unfair and you're going to be a victim, don't expect to be promoted. In life, we make choices. I don't care what choice it is. That choice has benefits and it has costs. What are the costs you're willing to take? You know, for the last 20 years, most of my clients have been men. And I've kind of softened my feminist approach to life.

You know, again, I'm a product of the 60s. I'm a feminist way back. What I have seen in the C-suite, dealing with most men, it's really hard to be an executive who's a man. You can't show your vulnerability. You're afraid that if you make a mistake, you're going to look weak. You're not going to look like a man. You're not going to look like you can handle it. You're afraid to say, I don't know. I mean, I think that that's a sad state of affairs when we've created conditions in companies where people can't be people. My life's work is about changing that because people do their best work when they're themselves.

Anita Brick: It's true. It goes back to the passion. And when you're passionate and authentic, you are going to deliver more and better quality.

Susan Lucia Annunzio: Once again, you have to make choices along the way. Who's the person I want to be and how do I best become that human being?

Anita Brick: That's a very, very, very good point. So taking that into account, there are two somewhat related questions. We'll do them, I'll give you one and then we'll do the other. If you were thinking about someone who was a senior executive, maybe a business division wanted to move to the C-suite. What advice would you give that person?

Susan Lucia Annunzio: First thing I would look at is their career. What opportunities they've had in the past. What do they have? What's missing? What does the company need? What is the company's criteria for promotion? Most companies have competency models that show you the path. So I'd look at where this person wants to go. What's the competency model? I compare their careers around it and I help them fill the gaps.

That's a very difficult question to answer in general. Yeah, but I think it's going through the thinking process. But the first question again I would ask them is is this the place you want to be? Right. Is there alignment between you and this corporate culture? Can you do your best work here? Because if you're stifled. When I used to teach MBA students, the first question I used to ask them was, how many of you feel like you did your very, very best work at your last job and fully utilized your brain?

I probably got two people who raised their hand in the class of 35. So if you're in a company where you're not doing your very, very best work and you don't think you're using your brain, how are you going to succeed in that company? There's something about the environmental conditions in that company that get in the way of your success.

And what most people look at is, you know, functional things like this job, that job, instead of what are the conditions under which I, as a human being can flourish. And then how do I look at the competency model? Where am I against that? What's the gap and what do I have to do to fill in the gap? It's like doing a basic gap analysis. Yeah I.

Anita Brick: Agree. It's a great way to go because then you see where those obstacles are. There is an alum speaking of obstacles, he said, the CEO of my company is in his late 40s, a few years older than me, and I don't see him leaving anytime soon. I'm currently on the senior leadership team and aspire to be a CEO. What would you advise me to gain visibility outside of my firm? To be considered for CEO positions in other companies?

Susan Lucia Annunzio: The first thing I would do is say, what does my industry offer where I can be visible? Are there conferences? Are there places where I can speak? Are there places that I can perhaps give a case study? So if someone was in energy, for example, the Chicago Council on Global Affairs is doing a conference on energy in October.

Would I be someone in the audience? Do I want to ask questions? Do I want to be on panels? Can I make myself an industry expert? Second thing I would ask is what clubs do you belong to? Are you at the clubs where you can network and meet the right people? Do you want a C-suite job in a privately held company?

If that's the case, do you know people in private equity? They're always looking for talented people to run their companies. I don't think the way to go is to talk to recruiters. Unless, you know, a really good recruiter who's in your industry, who's truly looking for talent. Usually what they're doing is filling jobs that are on their plate. They're not usually collecting talent.

Anita Brick: There is another alum from the question. Teams like this person are having some regret and wanted some advice about maybe where to start over again. He said after graduating from Booth over ten years ago, I continued doing my IT consulting job for a large company. I didn't enjoy working there because I felt like I was working below my qualifications.

It affected my self-esteem and my performance. I quit three years ago to start my own real estate investment company and have had decent success, but I want to go back to a corporate job at an executive position. I'm very good with technology. Have an analytical mind. I'm a good problem solver. If I were to be part of a successful team in any industry, I'm almost 50 and don't know where to go or how to start.

Sounds like there are a lot of open questions there, but it sounds like underneath it is some regret. How do you regroup after feeling like you haven't lived up to your potential, and you were in one of those environments where it wasn't a good fit?

Susan Lucia Annunzio: I think the hard part is the story that the person would have to tell. I mean, to go from IT consulting to what did you say? Real estate investment management.

Anita Brick: Real estate investment management. Right.

Susan Lucia Annunzio: The linkage between those two jobs is not obvious. Again, I'm going to set a broken record here. I'm sorry, but when you look over your career, there is a common thread of the intrinsic talent you have that has made you succeed. It's not your functional job, but how you do work. This person who's on the phone, is he a big picture thinker?

Is he someone who's visionary? You see someone who sees where the world is going or is he really good at details? Is he an analyst? I mean, what is it that he's really good at, and how has he been able to demonstrate those skills? Regardless of the environment he's in? Because I've watched people work and go from many, many jobs.

For example, one of the CEOs I'm working with now, I've known for a long time, I've seen him in an operations job. I've seen him in a night job. I've seen him in a procurement job. He doesn't have that content expertise. What he has is a visionary. He's a motivator. He's someone who knows the big picture. He's a problem solver.

And wherever he is, he uses those skills and he builds a team of experts who then execute against his vision, and he empowers them to do a good job, and he holds them accountable for their work. Now, I can tell you every job he's been in, that's been his life pattern. The person who's asking this question, every job he's been in, there's a life pattern.

What is it? What has made him a star? And then I say to him, once you figured out what made you a star. Really? Think big. Say, what? Can I be the best in the world? And if those are my skills, those are my talents. What can I be best in the world at? And then create a story that supports that conclusion and network the hell out of finding it. That would be my advice.

Anita Brick: It sounds like he's never been a star at anything.

Susan Lucia Annunzio: That's not true. What it says is he's been unhappy and it says that he's a builder. It says that he's had positions where he didn't feel fulfilled. It doesn't say he hasn't been a star. How he has accomplished things is what he's been a star in, not what he's done.

Anita Brick: Even though he feels like his self-esteem is lower. It's not because he didn't excel, he just didn't value what he excelled at.

Susan Lucia Annunzio: All he can see is the bottom line. Instead of the process. So there were parts of that process that he excelled at. Got it. You know, it's kind of like if you've got a test and you got a score of 93, did you get 93 right or seven wrong. This is seven wrong people.

Got it. Something that he did right. He now just has to figure out what he has been aspiring for, and then find a place where he can pass the ball to people in places where he can. He wasn't a star. I've not met a perfect leader. I've not met somebody who's good at everything. People who try to be good at everything never become CEOs.

That's not only my opinion, that's my experience. Great CEOs have only two things in common. One is they're imperfect human beings, and they're consciously aware of the fact that they're imperfect. And number two is they surround themselves with people who are better at them than the stuff they're not good at. And leaders are people who make other people look good.

Anita Brick: There are two questions, two different people. One person was an exact MBA student. Actually, they were both exact MBA students and they were having trouble with that. So maybe we can look at that a little bit. One MBA student, she said, I work at a multinational institution and have been having a hard time knowing which people can get things done.

As a result, I'm worried that I'm spending too much time building relationships with the wrong people. Can you give me some advice about how to identify the key influencers who really influence the decision making process?

Susan Lucia Annunzio: Well, first of all, those are two questions. Two different questions. One is that the key influencers aren't necessarily the people who get things done. So a very good point. If you're wanting a project done I mean I'm a big believer in a player's hire a player's B players hire C players and C players hire D players. So eight players get stuff done.

You want to stand out in an organization. Make sure your team has eight players. Eight players have certain characteristics as their inner direction be they share three. They're comfortable with change and ambiguity. For they're willing to do whatever it takes to get the job done. They don't stand during the ceremony. These players are people who care more about the best project.

Result. Pass the ball more than whatever esteem or reward they're going to get because they did that project. Those are the kind of people that you want to hire and or have on your team. Influencers depend on the organization that you're in. Who has the ear of your boss? Where are the social nodes in your organization? If you took Grand Bird's class?

If you know, again, this is a very hard question to ask in general. But let's say, for example, you're a middle manager and you want to do a project, or you're doing a project and you want to know how important that project is. Who above you is the kind of person you would like to emulate? Someone who is getting to the top.

Someone you see is a mover in your organization. Someone who the person above them seems to go to. There's nothing wrong with seeking out someone in the organization's advice. That's not your direct supervisor. People call me and ask me for help all the time. The people that I admire are the people who know something about me. This is today's world right there.

There's the internet. They know my career. They come with a list. They know exactly what they want to learn from me. It's really clear why they picked me. And they have a purpose for the questions they're asking me. If you can find the influencers and you approach them in a way that makes them feel important and that their advice matters, most people will help you out.

But if you go to them unprepared, it will actually backfire. So when people come to me unprepared, for example, it's not hard to find out my career. And when people are asking me to tell my story, instead of having read my story and wanting to know something specific that they can learn from. I don't really want to help that person get a job, because that person, to me, isn't a good critical thinker, and I'm not going to risk my contacts on someone who hasn't impressed me.

It's not just finding the key influencers, it's how you approach that person. And I'm not saying to manipulate. I'm saying if you want to utilize someone's brain, make sure you know what it is you're looking for before you go there, because you don't get a second chance. You know the old expression, you don't get a second chance to make a first impression?

Anita Brick: Oh no question. And the stakes are high and people feel their relationships are very precious. And if someone isn't like you said, is not prepared, then they're going to do the same thing to your contacts, which will make you look bad. And it makes everyone not want to help. So go in and ask thoughtful questions. I totally agree with you.

There was another tricky situation. Another executive MBA student said, hello, I lead a number of middle managers who are extremely time challenged and focus on their own projects. How should I be influencing them to participate and help me on the other projects that are my initiatives? Soon as they do get a payoff, although it's not as significant as their own existing, time consuming projects. I know that's a tricky one. Thank you. In advance.

Susan Lucia Annunzio: What should I be doing to help them work on my projects? They're not gonna work for you. You're an eye person. You're not a wee person. From the way it reads. You come across and would come across as a taker. People don't help takers. They help givers. If you're in a situation like that, and I'm not saying the person is a taker, please don't misunderstand me.

I'm saying that that is phrased like a taker. And if you had a conversation that way, the impact you would make is that of a taker who wants to help somebody who's a taker. The conversation is about how we both are overwhelmed, have too much work to do. My job is yours? Is that how might I be able to help you with yours?

Here's what I need. Is there something I can do for you? What is it I can do to lighten your load so that we can accomplish not only what you're going to need to accomplish, but what we need for this other project, too. And to have an authentic conversation about the fact that somebody is overworked has too much to do, and that the other project that they're working on, for example, from the way the question was phrased, may have a bigger payoff.

So if it does, how can I help you to get that payoff so that we can complete the other work that's on your table, that has a smaller on your plate, that has a smaller payoff, but can help me meet my performance objectives as well. It's a give and take, and the more the conversation can be authentically respectful of someone's time and needs, the higher the likelihood that person is going to want to do something for you.

Anita Brick: You're absolutely right. You're a slave, right? You've given us a lot of things to think about and some good practical advice. If we were going to summarize someone, whether they are years and years away from the executive suite, or if that's their next step, and that's a big group, right? So what are three things that you would advise someone who wanted to continue to grow and advance toward that executive suite, toward those board positions?

Susan Lucia Annunzio: The first one I would say is your why statement. Why do you do what you do? What gets you out of bed in the morning? What difference are you going to make in the world? Because that will motivate you to do your best work, and it will want people to want to hire you. People want to hire passionate people.

People want to hire people with a track record and track record. True track record, impressive track record comes from being passionate about the work that you do. Second piece of advice is to be more focused on what you can do for them than what you can do for yourself. When you help other people, they will help you. And third, pass the ball.

If you want to truly succeed, learn what you're a star and surround yourself with people where you can build a team and be able to delegate so that you can shine. Because if you're doing this stuff you're good at as well as the stuff you're not, the stuff you're good at will suffer and you will never shine.

Anita Brick: Great words of wisdom. Thank you so much. I know how busy you are and you've got lots of exciting things coming on the horizon. We wish you all the best and thank you so much for making the time.

Susan Lucia Annunzio: You're welcome, and thank you for inviting me to your program today. I appreciate it.

Anita Brick: And thank you all for listening. This is Anita Britt with career caps. How do we keep advancing?