Bouncing Back From a Career Challenge

Anita Brick: Hi. This is Anita Brick. And welcome to CareerCast at Chicago Booth. To help you advance in your career. Today, we're delighted to be speaking to John Baldoni, president of Baldoni Consulting, a coaching and leadership development firm. He speaks globally about leadership in all its applications. John is a bestselling author, and his latest book is The Leader’s Pocket Guide.

He's written columns for CBS, Moneywatch, the Harvard Business Review, Fast Company, and Forbes. As I'll tell you again at the end, his site, there are lots of really wonderful things there at JohnBaldoni.com. John, thank you so much for making the time today.

John Baldoni: Anita, thank you for inviting me. I'm a big fan of Chicago Booth. This is an honor for me.

Anita Brick: We are glad that you could be part of this. I know you've run into people—without naming any names, of course, who've had career setbacks. Give us a couple of examples of some career challenges that you've seen some of your clients face or dare I say, even yourself.

John Baldoni: Fine. That's a very fair question. I am really glad that you're talking about this topic, because we live in a culture of success. You know, it's part of our celebrity culture. We are surrounded by it. And then when someone makes a misstep, they fall from the face of the earth and we never hear from them again. And that's such nonsense.

There's a wonderful story that is told about JPL, Jet Propulsion Laboratory out in Pasadena, which is part of NASA, and they do the deep space exploration, exploration of Mars. There's a wonderful story of 1 or 2 Mars missions that missed their targets. And both the project managers came in to offer their resignations to Charles Elachi, who was the head of JPL.

And Lockheed looked at him and went, why would I want to get rid of you guys? We just spent $400 million educating you. So in other words, we need to learn. We're all going to make mistakes and we need to learn from them. I've had the opportunity, the privilege, really, of speaking at the US Army War College in Carlisle, Pennsylvania.

And I remember on a tour of the place, there was a building that was shown to me, and they said that I think the name of the building is something like Lessons Learned. The US military pioneered this idea of after-action review, which is what went right, what went wrong, and what can we learn from this? And we don't spend enough time in corporate learning from these kinds of debriefs about what we did wrong.

So first of all, a setback should not be the end of a career, generally. Ethical transgressions, that's another matter. But we're talking about mistakes made with good intentions. You know, situations change. We get caught unawares, blindsided, whatever—things go wrong. First important thing is to own up to it and resolve: what am I going to do next? The concept of setback—none of us want to go through that. Of course we love success. That's something we should strive for, but we shouldn't go into the opposite of that.

So what I see a lot in my coaching is people who are getting to that next level to prepare for a more senior level of leadership, or even the very top of leadership. And so all of those folks have had defeats along the way. And the reason they're there, the reason I'm working with them, is because they've learned how to overcome those defeats.

Anita Brick: Very, very good point. Sometimes it's hard to explain, and I think there's embarrassment around a setback, even though we know that we all have them and we will have them in the future and so on. One of the students asked a question, how do you recover from a setback? But more importantly, how do you explain the setback in the interview process and that you are actually using the setback to use it actually to your advantage?

John Baldoni: It's a very good question. And any failure that we have or a setback, you own it, you take responsibility. You step up and say, hey, this is what we did. Our assumptions were off. This is what we resolved in an employee situation. I'd say we learned from this. This is how we're going to fix it. What do you think? How can we go forward?

This is a conversation one would have with colleagues or a boss. In a job interview, remember, that's more of a marketing opportunity. So you still own it. You take responsibility for it and you talk about what you learned from it. Here's what I did. It wasn't correct. Here's what I've learned. And we had the opportunity to do this. And this is what happened. And now I'm moving up.

Anita Brick: I found it quite fascinating. There are a lot of questions that came in. The market isn't super forgiving right now. The way people define setback, I found it kind of fascinating. One person, for example, said the way he or she defined setback was how do you then explain that you took time off? Now it's not really a setback and it wasn't a failure, but she was perceiving it as a setback when there is a gap in experience. But that kind of makes people uncomfortable. How do you not allow that to be a setback? Because in a sense, it's a fact, not a failure.

John Baldoni: Well, that's a good one. Let me say, I think the job market is a little skewed right now. And I hear stories about hiring people that say, well, I would never hire anybody if they've been out of the market for six months because their skills have eroded. How presumptuous. How awful. That's disgusting. I wouldn't even want to deal with a hiring manager who was actually speaking like that, because that is a sign of sheer ignorance.

So let me put it on the positive. If you have a gap, explain what it's for. Is it eldercare, parent care, childcare, whatever, especially if it's not nontraditional, i.e. elder care, which is, I mean, it is becoming traditional. Now. Say why you did it. To me, if I'm a hiring manager, if someone is willing to do that, that shows character, that shows someone who is not all about himself or herself, someone who's willing to take responsibility, also someone who must have been successful to take a period of time off to care for someone else.

That is someone I'm interested in talking to. They may not be right for the job, but I want to have a conversation with that person. Now you as the person who has that gap, what did you learn from the gap? What did it teach you? How is that applicable to your specific job? At the same time, let's address the skills.

I know things have changed over the last five years. Here's what I've done to prepare myself. I've gone back to school or I've polished my skills. I have worked in a nonprofit, I have done all this stuff. So I am current. That's what you demonstrate. It's the best that you can do. But you own the situation at the same time. No apologies, but you talk about how you've kept yourself up to speed and up to standards and what you can offer, and how you grew and developed. Consider it a job and what you learned from it.

Anita Brick: It's a really good point, because when you think about it, because there was a question about parenting as well, with both of those things, with elder care and parenting, you're character grows. Yeah, your interpersonal skills grow.

John Baldoni: Sometimes management is a form of parenting. It's obviously a different dynamic. But if you're a manager and you need to get boys and girls to play together well, as a parent, you have some tricks up your sleeve or experience as to how to get people to coordinate and collaborate and work together and behave themselves. So that's a positive.

Anita Brick: In either case, whenever you're dealing with someone that does require a lot of care at either end of the age spectrum, you either get completely burned out, at least from what I've heard, you get either get completely burned out, or you develop some new skills, and you develop a resilience that is so needed in the marketplace today.

John Baldoni: Resilience is a most powerful thing, and I'm glad you mentioned it. Warren Bennis, who's a professor emeritus now at the USC Marshall School, has had a long, distinguished career as a teacher and professor and university president and author. I remember him saying something about how he had never met a senior leader who had not suffered from adversity in one form or another, and that person, obviously being successful, had learned from that crucible, that moment of adversity, and overcome it.

There's nothing wrong with being knocked down. What matters is what you do next. And that's where resilience comes in, that ability to spring back, that ability to say, you know, here's what I'm doing and here's how I'm going to get better. And this is what I've learned about myself and what I need to do the next time.

That's very important. And resilience. My goodness, anybody who's been through these last four years of economic deprivation is a resilient person, and that is very much something that employers should be considering when they're considering a candidate.

Anita Brick: Now, one other bucket of setback with this really multifaceted definition is someone said, how do you deal with getting older and gray hair? And I think they meant more than literally. But are there any things that you've seen with your consulting clients where being a more seasoned professional can actually be used to their advantage?

John Baldoni: Oh, absolutely. The age issue— and it's a tough one. It's how you wear your age. And I don't mean that necessarily in personal appearance. Of course we need to keep ourselves fit in as best we can and look our best, but how we present ourselves. So if you're 45 and act like you're 65, then you're old and tired.

On the other hand, if you're 59 and you are energetic and enthusiastic, that rubs off. I mean, some of the youngest-thinking people I know are in their 70s. and sometimes some of the most defeatist, they're in their 30s. So it's how you present yourself in age. And yes, people are going to make decisions about you regardless of age, but you have to present yourself as who you are, but do it with a sense of confidence.

I am what I am. I'm looking for a new opportunity. Here's what I bring to it. I bring enthusiasm, and I bring perspective. I bring wisdom. In other words, what we've learned by our experience: better and more efficient ways of doing things. Downturns, economic downturns you have weathered. That's the kind of thing you want to talk about. So it's how you wear your age. Part of that's appearance, but also how you present yourself.

Anita Brick: Got it. Two questions that are internal. Two people are kind of stuck internally. I know that's really your sweet spot. One person who is an Executive MBA student said, I have more than 10 years of work experience and I'm in the middle of my MBA working full time. There's a reorg in my organization and I am on the wrong side politically.

I feel stuck right now and need some encouragement. So what are some of the greatest upsides that you've ever seen with someone who's stuck in an organization and facing this kind of obstacle?

John Baldoni: Well, the person who wrote that question, first of all, deserves a big pat on the back. You're going back to school doing an MBA at a school like U of C, I'm impressed. And I would also say that if you're doing that, you're going to have options, now, as well as when you leave the program. So maybe the organization that you're from, where you're working right now, is not going to offer you the opportunities you want.

But with an MBA and the experience you have, you will have some new opportunities, maybe outside that organization. That's one thing I'd say. The other thing I would say is don't accept as fact your perception that maybe I'm on the wrong side. You may be. I'm not going to dispute that, but maybe there's some other things you can do.

Maybe the boss for whom you work didn't get the promotion and has left the company. So maybe that's an opportunity for you. Or if that boss is no longer with the organization, how you present yourself, you're going to have to sell your abilities. Sell your capabilities. So network. Get yourself known to other facets in the organization, what you can do to help make it known that, you know, you're learning new things in your school. So most important is to believe in oneself.

Anita Brick: How can you actually do that, though? In reality, if you feel defeated and beaten down during the day?

John Baldoni: Well, that's the number one problem. When we suffer a setback, we at times may be tempted to wallow in our own misery and be defeatist. There's no room for defeatism. At the same time, suffering defeat is not a time to be pollyannaish, but it's a time to accept it. What was your role? Were you responsible for it or not responsible?

Next question is what do you do about it? The worst thing you can do is to wallow in it. You can wallow in it for about 30 minutes and then give it up and move forward. What are you going to do next? Because no one wants a whiner. No one wants a complainer. People want to be surrounded with optimists.

The leadership proposition. And we haven't talked about that. Branch leaders must be optimists. That doesn't mean they're Pollyanna, but they must be the proverbial people who look at the glass as half full. If you have a perspective that it's always half full, then you're probably in a situation that if you can't change it, you're not in a right spot and you need to find another place to apply your skills.

So you have to believe in yourself. You cannot give in to defeatism. It isn't easy. And what I'm telling you could be perceived as a platitude, but it's what you have to do, and you have to look at it. And how do you overcome that sense of it? First of all, you itemize what you've done well: things you've accomplished, your academic success, your professional success, the skills you have acquired, the friends you have, the connections you have.

All of those are pluses. And for most of us, those pluses far outweigh any negatives or setbacks we may have. So one must never lose faith in one's own ability. Now. OK, so outside examples, I always look to history. Greatest example of coming back from a setback would be, I mean, in the 20th century certainly would have been Winston Churchill.

My God, that man was defeated. I don't know how many times. Also suffered from depression. Another great example would be Abraham Lincoln: suffered loss early in his life, probably was plagued by depression. He was a very skilled lawyer. He served one term in Congress, was defeated, ran for Senate, was defeated, and then became president of the United States.

And guess what happened after he took his oath of office? Country split in two. Well, if you want to paint him as a loser, you could certainly do so. He never accepted that. He said, what will I do? And so I look to people from history, their perseverance, their resilience. Nelson Mandela is another example. My God, that man was in prison for 27 years and came out and helped create a new nation. So none of us should be overwhelmed by our defeats. We need to find ways to inspire ourselves.

Anita Brick: Well, it's a very good point. I have this friend who works for a multinational company. One of the things she does, you know, she's very technologically savvy and all of that. She carries around a paper journal and she'll write stuff in it. If she hears someone say something that is encouraging, she'll write it down. She'll put snippets of articles in it. And when she feels discouraged, she pulls it out and reads it.

There was a study done at the University of Texas, at UT Austin, and they put together a group of individuals who demographically were all very, very similar, and they bucketed them into three groups. They were all in a job search mode. One group got, you know, your standard help with resumes and interviews and all that stuff.

The second group received that, plus a time management system, and the third group received those two things, but they were asked to do a 30 minute after-action report, a daily debrief, and at the end of the time—I think the study was about 16 or 18 weeks—the groups had the same number of interviews. However, the big difference was the number of offers, 18% of groups one and two had offers; 54 or 55% of group three.

And the difference was, as you said, people doing that after-action report. That can be helpful because you start seeing themes of what works. You can start seeing themes of what doesn't work.

John Baldoni: That's a wonderful study. And also let me compliment you on your friend's technique that works for her. Collecting examples of inspiration. She makes it herself. Other people look to books for that. The self after-action reviews are very helpful too. So yeah, that's the process I will throw in the leadership equation. Leadership is about action, making things happen.

So when you suffer a defeat, it's what you do next. You do not give up. You may not pursue the same course of action, but you do not give up on yourself. You say, I tried this, now I'll try this. But having learned something and there's … I need to acquire a new skill, or I need to acquire a new ability here.

Or I've learned from this experience, and I won't do it the same way next time. So yes, self-learning, self-learning, self-learning is very important to the recovery from a setback process.

Anita Brick: You're absolutely right. There was another question. So from an Executive MBA student who said, this may not sound like a challenge, but it is. I have a good title, good salary. However, I'm not doing something I have an interest in, and it's very different from what I signed up for. I'm spending so much time and energy on the job I'm losing sight and ground on my career goals. I can't afford to quit or lose my job. What would you advise me to do to strategize an exit? Keep all those relationships solid where I am right now and position myself for the next part?

So I guess the first part, which I’ll turn over to you, is all right, so you're in a situation, you're highly valued, you're doing a good job. It's all kind of set, but it's not what you want to do. How do you not destroy all those relationships internally by leaving? Ultimately, how do you use them to actually strengthen your network?

John Baldoni: If you're a valuable contributor and recognized for it, but you're not doing what you want to do, that's going to show up sooner than later. Give yourself some kind of a time frame and say, by whatever month or year I'm going to be out of here. In the meantime, I'm going to make new contacts, I'm going to network, and obviously this person is getting their MBA. Now, what do I do in the interim?

If possible, have a conversation with a trusted associate, not an associate, a boss, and say, I'm here. I'm appreciate the opportunity. I think this is not the best use of my skills. I need to be doing something differently. In the meantime, I'm going to be transitioning at a period of time, but I'm in this job 100%, so this is what I need to do differently, and a boss should listen to that.

Now, if you don't have a boss with whom you can have that conversation, then you don't have that conversation. So you're on your own and you need to make your own transition. You're entitled to look for another job. I would advise someone who's not happy in a certain situation to find another job. No, I know that's very easy to say, but if you're in a place where you're not happy, then you have 2 or 3 choices: Suck it up, effect change, or seek change. Way to make changes in the current job or go someplace else. That's your choice. You have to face up to it.

Anita Brick: I know you do a lot of work inside companies. It's— one thing that comes to mind is that it didn't sound like it was a company. You know, some people will say the culture is wrong for me, etc., etc. It just sounds like it's the function.

John Baldoni: I don't know, I think it's more of a cultural mismatch. I mean, a company could be very successful, but this is not what I wanted to do.

Anita Brick: Doesn't sound like it's a cultural mismatch necessarily. What it sounds like is that he is not doing the job he wants to do. What would you say to someone who has built strong equity inside the company who wants to make a cross-functional change? How have you seen that work in the past?

John Baldoni: A cross-functional change within the organization, you need to find ways to introduce yourself to the other side. Where I've seen it work well is when you tell your superiors that you want to make a change, and what is it going to take? You know, if I'm in engineering and I want to be in marketing, here's what I need to do.

So is it possible to talk to your HR people? What is it going to take for me to get over there? Is this thing even possible? You have to be open about it. But at the same time, I know it's easy for me to say, be open about it, because if your boss doesn't want you to leave, then there could be repercussions. It can be a sticky one. You have to do what's right for yourself. You cannot short yourself by staying in a job you don't like, and you’ve got to figure out how to get out of it.

Anita Brick: As a leader. It seems to me that there's also this coming up with a plan so that you don't just leave them and they're stuck. He creates an exit plan, an exit strategy with a tactical plan that leaves the job and his department and his group in pretty good shape.

John Baldoni: But one of the ways we measure a leader is legacy. Has he or she left the business in a better shape than when she came? We often think of that as CEOs, but it kind of applies to all of us. At some point, you're going to have to be open about it. I know I'm doing well. I like the people here, but it's not what I signed up to be.

I'm going to be transitioning. How do you want me to do it? Here's what I would like to accomplish in the eight or the 12 months before I leave, and I'll be willing to do X, Y, Z, groom my successor, achieve our milestones, all of those kinds of things. So you're a partner in this. You can't do that by yourself.

You have to let other people in on your plan. And if you can't let other people in it on your plan, then you're … between a rock and a hard place. You can't exit gracefully if other people don't know you're going to be exiting.

Anita Brick: True, true. But I think you can put together what you think should unfold.

John Baldoni: Sure, you can plan all you want, and that's good. And be strategic as well as tactical. But eventually someone else has to be in on that plan and for sure. And the other thing is you need to prepare yourself for what it is you're going to do next. I have another job offer in place, or if you have a good and open relationship with the boss, then you say, you know, there's no place I'm going next.

But here's what I like to do within our organization. Or I know for my sake I need to be doing X, but I'm not going to leave you in the lurch. I have a responsibility to the organization. Some bosses will take that very well. Some bosses will not be so great. You know, it can be a hit or miss proposition. It's not easy.

Anita Brick: But is a leader someone who's growing and advancing in an organization? It kind of makes sense to have a network that goes way beyond your immediate organization, unless the culture really prohibits that.

John Baldoni: Outside the organization. Oh, absolutely. Yeah.

Anita Brick: No, I mean, inside your organization, but outside your department.

John Baldoni: Yes. That behooves you. But many organizations, as cross-functionally as they want to think they are, can have a very siloed mentality. You know, I mean, I really don't know a lot of marketers or hang around with engineers. I don't know a lot of customer service people who hang around with logistics, people I don't know operations, people who hang around with another group. It can be hard, and it can be almost foreign. Getting outside your function. It's not an easy proposition.

Anita Brick: True. One of the things I've seen some people do who are current students, I mean, it's harder for alums to do this. Current students, they're working on a group project and they bring it into their organization in a different area. They talk to their manager and make sure that this is OK and all of that, and sometimes it allows them to broaden their reach in the context of doing a school project which isn't threatening anyone.

And they may actually—the company may benefit from it because students will often act as, you know, in a consulting capacity. So I know that's another way to broaden that reach a little bit.

John Baldoni: Sure. That's a wonderful way. Very proactive. And it introduces you to, as you're learning a new skill set, you're introducing yourself to new people.

Anita Brick: That's good. I know that you love leadership. That is your sweet spot. When you think about things to prepare yourself, there are going to be career challenges. What are some things that you can do to prepare yourself before they may happen, to kind of build up your resilience? And then what are 2 or 3 things that you can do once it does happen to kind of get back on your feet and move forward again?

John Baldoni: Well, that's a good question. I don't know that I've ever been asked how would you prepare for the inevitable setback? Because we don't talk about it. Now, that said, consider your career as an initiative that you're launching. Every savvy executive has a fallback plan. Let’s take it in marketing terms, of, you know, do this project, the launch goes out more slowly, then we're going to increase our ad buy, or we're going to do social marketing or we're going to do this.

Or if the product is failing, here's the change. We're going to pull it back to a recall and do that. So in other words, you have fallbacks. Same thing with your career. You know, life is not linear. We can't prepare ourselves for the curveball, but we can at the same time know that I'm going to be blindsided at times.

So how do I respond to that? Well, the thing is to believe in yourself. The three things that are success, personality wise, or at least attitudinal wise or behavior wise, in an organization are three things. You have to be competent, you have to be credible, and you have to be confident.

Competent means you can do your job. Credible means other people believe that you can do the job, and confident means you know you can do the job, and other people know you can do the job. So that's the three things you have. You need to develop that kind of ability in yourself. Look on the positive, adopt a positive mindset, but also a realist mindset. You know, know that failure is only around the corner.

Not that you have to be paranoid, but know that things can go wrong and may go wrong and maybe will go wrong. So be prepared for it. Believe in yourself. Believe in your strengths. You know we cannot control the future, but we can control how we react to it. So we need to believe in ourselves, and we nurture that.

Believing in ourselves is to know ourselves and know what we do well. Know we have our shortcomings and how do we compensate for our shortcomings. And that's part of the resilience factor. Keep yourself resiliently fit, eat right, exercise right and you're as healthy as possible, too. That affects one's ability to cope. And then when setbacks occur, analyze it. What went wrong?

Talk to people. Oh, as part of your resilience factor, build up a network. Trust in your friends. Rely on your family. So you have a strong social network too, so that when you experience a setback, you have something to fall back upon. Not necessarily for a future source of employment, but you have a social support network. We all need that.

We're not individualists per se. We all need some others around us to help us navigate. You can never lose faith in yourself. You must acknowledge a setback. But what do I do next? And also the sense of determination and perseverance. Yeah, I believe in myself. I'm going to make it work. This project may have not been right for me.

Timing was off or my expectations were too high. But next time I'm going to do this thing differently, or I'm going to try something different where I can apply my skills in a better way. That's the kind of thinking that goes into it. It's a very good question.

Anita Brick: All right. Someone finds themselves in the midst of a challenge today. What are three things that people can do? Maybe a combination of practical things and a little bit of encouragement to move on. The resilience, the things that you do in preparation, is all great. So now what do you do when you find yourself in the midst of a challenge or a setback?

John Baldoni: Well, I would do an after-action review: what went right as well as what went wrong? And don't forget the right part: how accountable I am. What did I do? What were my assumptions? What am I going to do next? What's my plan of action? Talk to friends. Talk to colleagues. Trusted colleagues. Rely upon that. In doing that, that analysis that you do, it's a form of reflection that's an active thing.

Don't stop believing in yourself. At the same time, don't overestimate your abilities. I was too unrealistic here. I let my ego get in the way of analyzing assumptions. I was to blame for that. I wanted the project to succeed more than the resources or than we were capable of doing. I pushed it too hard. Analyze your own behavior as to what you did right, as well as what you could have done better.

And don't give up on yourself when you make a mistake. You cannot give up on yourself, because if you do, then it's lost. So yeah, I learned from this. Yep, it's a slap in the face. But here's what I'm going to do next time.

Anita Brick: Great. John, thank you so much for sharing your insights. You've got so much experience. I know you're very busy, so thank you for making the time to share all of this with Booth students and alums.

John Baldoni: It's an honor to be considered, and thank you for this opportunity, Anita.

Anita Brick: And as I said at the beginning, I promised I would remind you of John's website because there's a lot of really good stuff there, and it's JohnBaldoni.com. And thank you all for listening. This is Anita Brick with CareerCast at Chicago Booth. Keep advancing.