Positive Leadership in Uncertainty

Anita Brick: Hi, this is Anita Brick, and welcome to CareerCast at Chicago Booth. To help you advance in your career. Today I'm delighted, well, way more than delighted. I'm honored to be speaking with Jean-Philippe Courtois. And he is executive VP and President of National Transformation Partnerships at Microsoft, where he's been for almost four decades. His focus is on transforming national economies, helping to create sustainable and inclusive economic growth through digital transformation one country at a time.

He's also passionate about positive leadership and on his podcast, which I highly recommend, you can learn how he views purpose-led leaders and how they can generate a positive energy that achieves greater commercial success, individual happiness, team well-being, and positive societal impact. Outside of Microsoft, John Felipe who is affectionately known, at least what I've heard currently, by JP, spends much of his time working with the Live for Good Foundation, which he co-founded with his family in 2015. The foundation aims to unlock the potential of young people from all walks of life through social entrepreneurship, driving societal innovation through a purpose-led community. He is a Schema Business School graduate and has been its chairman of the board since 2017. He sits on the board of Directors for Manpowergroup, the global workforce solution organization. JP, thank you so much. I am so excited that we're able to have this conversation today. And what you're doing is absolutely necessary in today's society.

Jean-Philippe Courtois: Need to delight. Pleasure to be with you and have these great dialogues with you. And obviously all of your listeners as well. Really a pleasure.

Anita Brick: So we know that we are living in unprecedented times of uncertainty. And one of the alarms from the past. How do you retain a positive focus when you may be discouraged as a leader?

Jean-Philippe Courtois: Certainly the times we are going through, we've been going through for years, I need to have been quite incredible. I mean, challenging all of us and many people across the world through the pandemic, through social events in the US, of course, with George Floyd, tragedy, Capitol Hill, the war in Ukraine, Europe, in Russia, now, many other phenomenons that happen. I think as you see that growing certainty more than ever, we I mean, people as citizens, as colleagues, we need to truly bring the best and calmness of our minds to make the right set of decisions together and to get to a positive direction in those times. Uncertainty. This is where I believe the School of Food Code can help.

And if I am ready to introduce what it is at the highest level, I would say it is basically a discipline that has been existing for a number of years now and which is based on three core disciplines themselves. One is positive psychology. The other one is neurosciences. These developments last decades and are really mindfulness in a broad way.

Those three disciplines bring together really the ability for you as a person. What is your role actually in an organization? Musician could be a company or a corporation, could be an NGO, a sports club, or a community. It's all about the way you connect your personal mission if you have one, and maybe the letter or purpose with a buzz of impacting the world. And in order to do that well, we need to work through what it means. But in essence, it's about being positive with yourself. Number one, it's about really bringing positivity with others as you engage with them in a structural and structured way so that you can really align together on a bigger purpose. And then three, it's about the way you bring that first of all, together to have an impact in the world and do that day in and day out.

Anita Brick: So it's not a one off event in terms of uncertainty. It's really all about bringing safety, confidence, harmony and a really deep, meaningful connection with people to accomplish more when things are not clear for most of us. Another alum asked how do you prioritize yourself when your team and company need you and they need your focus, time, and attention?

Jean-Philippe Courtois: It's a great question. A question I got very often, both from my teams and Microsoft, from my team, my isolation, from my social circles and mini sponsors that I had along the way. And I would say, number one, number one, in terms of the Positive Leadership Foundation, it's you meet by yourself. There's no way you're going to be able, as a leader, as a manager, to do a great job with your teams if you don't take care of yourself in the first place.

During the pandemic, I think many of us have witnessed that as we have worked long hours and then crazy times where digital was boring with physical presence in the past in the office, people have tended to forget themselves and it's bad. Why is it that if you don't take care of yourself from a physical health standpoint, being actually healthy?

Number two, doing the same when it comes to your wellness and actually the mindset, the peace of your mind and obviously the way you do that as well to manage your emotions and the way you react to adverse events, to issue challenges that eventually you're going to have in your professional personal life. In a way, if you don't become the master of that set that emerges in yourself, there's no way you can have a positive impact on others and bring them all together.

So it would be my number one advice, starting with yourself. Well, take care of yourself.

Anita Brick: Having listened to your podcast and WC, who asked this question has as well and she said thank you for sharing yourself with us. JP. I know you've experienced some really challenging things. How did you grow to the point where you could find value in those challenges?

Jean-Philippe Courtois: Well, I guess it can be a very big, broad question. Anita, because clearly, any of you on these podcasts, we've gone and we are going through all kinds of challenges. And I think what I've realized over the past decade in particular is that challenges are very different depending on the perspective you take with your mind in the first place.

Could be a lot of small, a bunch of small issues in your life, and sometimes they are actually very big things happening to your life in terms of losses, big, deep losses that you can have. And, you know, all of us have to go through that. And I think in my case, as I went through those different mommas, my life, I've realized probably over too many years, to be honest with you, it didn't come in my early years in Microsoft or personally. I realized that first of all, you need to truly have the rights and expectations about what you want to achieve. And I had this great discussion with one of my guests, Mohammed, who is good at Bogo. That's basically the whole story of a great book that I recommend if you have not read it here for a number of you.

So for happiness and more is a wonderful person. I got to know him. You used to work at Microsoft, then he left for Google. Then he became an entrepreneur and he wrote this book when he lost his son early, a decade ago. And I connect with Moe and we discuss together on that experience, which for sure I share with you the same and understanding the way you must be reflecting on it or managing your expected issues about what's going to happen in your life and what what success is for you in your life, and the way you think about that versus the perception of the real event.

When that happens in a way you read it the way you see things happening, it's very clear to make it simple for you on that equation, that the more you manage expectations. I'm not seeing at a low level because you can be ambitious, you should have enough. So I should get back to that. This world should be a bit of a Northstar personally.

Anita Brick: But do you manage things in a way which is not making your next bit? It's impossible to do something dramatically hard, so that inevitably you're going to fail, in which you're going to be supporting yourself and eventually you're going to be dismissed for.

Jean-Philippe Courtois: Right. Maybe it could be a big, well, some case, but it's the case for a number of people. And then you start getting into this spiral of negativity with your little voice and yourself telling you you did such a bad job on this. You know, you didn't do what was expected from you as a leader, this and that and that and then and that keeps growing, actually a negative spiral in yourself. I still need to reflect in my life to Anita in some of the hardest mode of my life, that, well, the things or the people that matter the most in my life is something I want to prioritize for the future. And of course, these people, my family and other people that I love being with and spending time with. And then I, I really, literally really prioritize things differently. My life as well, in the way I define success in a way I'm not feeling guilty about so-called failures. You deal with challenges daily, weekly, or some very unique events. This is the way I've tried to manage myself. Those flows of challenges are happening in my life as well, today and tomorrow. It's true, it's forthcoming and it's genuine.

Anita Brick: You clearly have a strong sense of purpose. It comes across in how you are. And I've heard about you and so many different things. One of the beauties aspect questions, he said, how do you recommend that someone bring a sense of purpose to work, when my purpose may be different than that of where I've built my career, and I don't plan to leave?

Jean-Philippe Courtois: Yeah, it's another good, great, great question. You know, first of all, we get it to be what we call a purpose. Or, you know, you may have a language phase on that, right? In French, the reason is basically as a human being. \

Anita Brick: Right.

Jean-Philippe Courtois: It's a big question to me. And there's been some exchanges that have had representations using a lot that decode from an American. Also, I'm sure you know, well, Mark Twain, which I actually liked. Mark Twain wrote this wonderful sentence. He said, you know, the two most important dates of your life are the day when you are born and the day when you understand why. And to me, that is such a clarification about what the purpose is all about. And the purpose is truly something that can obviously evolve in your life.

You don't have the same purpose 2030 or depending on when you go through some tragic events, your life as well can be very clear. You have different ways to actually decide that you want to be much more purposeful to that person. But assuming again you are in that mindset of finding a way, shaping, even writing down. There's different tools, methodologies, and ways to do that.

By the way, you start actually with what I would call one of the powers of the Literacy Foundation about myself, which is knowing yourself, which is so hard, right? Knowing yourself, self-awareness, self acknowledgment of who you are. They did that. Self is Kim Cameron fantastic. Awesome. Positive psychology. Yes, seven people in my professional personal social life and you send them an email and they run back to you a lot about the best moments they had with me.

And then he got just a few lines, a variety of what were the moments. But more importantly, I mean who I was during those moments. What was I doing? Very special, particularly for those people who made them feel really great, different, going in a very positive direction. I feel those connections with all the moments we live together. So going back to my point, it's about that self-awareness, about your strengths and what we call your unique talents.

And of course, people who ask that, okay. But also the areas of development. Yes, we do. And I've been busy with work of mine for decades and more, Anita, and I keep doing it. But I would say my latest wisdom is, well, maybe I would recommend to leaders that we spend more time getting the best from the talents and skills of the people we have, because that's a foundation for strengths, for them to grow and do more and achieve more.

And so that to me, is the place to go and connect with your purpose. Because when you know the moments, the events in your professional personal life, again, because you are one person, live the day where you bring your very best. What do you call the best version of yourself? Then you can start thinking about, well, okay, that's the way I could actually express my purpose in the future.

And the purpose is going to be a kind of a description of the ways you're going to bring that version of your contribution to growing yourself, and more importantly, to grow others in a positive impact in the world.

Anita Brick: Okay, so with this particular person, he said that his purpose sounds like he knows what it is, and isn't exactly aligned with this company. Does it mean that he needs to leave or is there another alternative?

Jean-Philippe Courtois: So great question. So the second reason why people over the last couple of years across the globe have been leading companies is because they don't seem anymore aligned with the beliefs, values and DNA that they have as people. So it's a very important point. I think that the direct discussion between the person is the manager of the organization itself to understand it.

I would say what you call the cognitive dissonance between your values, what you stand for and what your organization company is standing for. Sooner or later you realize that alignment or not, of values. If you find that there's too much of a divide right between what your experiences living, the values of the company you work for and what are your own values, and then seeing they should be exactly the same all the time because you have some unique, of course expectations, education, background, etc. but they should definitely align strongly, resonate with you.

If they don't, and if you see a number of repeated issues and you don't see any ways out of that as you engage, as you challenge, maybe in a positive way, your leadership, your management about this and that, well, then their connection could be, well, maybe you need to find a better place to fulfill your potential. Seriously. And I think that's essentially what people are doing these days.

Increasingly much differently in what people's generation used to do, like one decade ago, two decades ago, you know, where people tend to be more sticking to a job or to a company just because it was safer or etc.. Well, the young generation particularly doesn't want that anymore. And I think they are so right, so clear about what they want to achieve.

Anita Brick: I agree. So there are two leaders who seem pretty self-aware, but also can see how their shortcomings are negatively impacting the team. So the first one is from an MBA student. And she said, what would you advise someone to do to transform a relationship where you resent the other person and it's starting to damage the team? What would you advise someone to do to transform a relationship?

Jean-Philippe Courtois: You resent this person who reports to you and it's damaging. The team is super important. I think as a leader, I mean your job number one is create a safe foundation for all of your team members. And of course, the more diverse they are in the broad way. Right? And don't keep diversity in a way that goes and extends beyond gender.

Of course, I'm talking about necessity, and I'm thinking about talking about points of view and backgrounds, etc. and we all know that now. It's been proven remote everywhere else to better represent the world. So I think if you have that kind of challenge as the person, well, number one, I would say make sure you are really deeply connected to that person, not superficially, but really in a way that is meaningful.

And, you know, something we've learned. And I keep learning myself at Microsoft, my foundation at Microsoft, in developing a management framework we call Model Scale. It is a framework for managers. First, let learners also honestly, executive leaders at the top of the company. Number one, to care and caring is about being assertive about what a person's challenge is all about.

Because that person who could be dysfunctional, by the way, maybe ask some deep personal challenge. You are not even well. So you need first of all to create that kind of intimacy and trust to make sure that you have that clarity of, understanding where that person comes from beyond just the business challenge on the table, the issue, which of course she has to take care of, etc. caring, of course, expands as well.

As we just discussed, we find does not come back to that true being of your team members, making sure that they feel that you are well, not just well treated, but they can actually bring their best in the way you you get them all of that, the chance to have their voice being heard as well in the team. And then it's about basically coaching, which is a very important learning. I had myself the best materials for your coach mindset. It is about three things. It's about being curious, being curious about others. But the person who is not showing positive connection, relationship dysfunction knows. And being curious means actually you let her or let him talk a lot more than you talk.

It's kind of a good rule of thumb to think about, well, maybe I should listen for 70% of the time or 80 and just start with 20%. I'm not saying this is the formula of success depending on the moment. Of course it is people. Sometimes you have to be more direct. Absolutely. But it's super important because number two, it's about being lazy.

Anita Brick: Yes. Lazy in what sense?

Jean-Philippe Courtois: Well, lazy in the sense of jumping on the solutions to the people. That person who's got problems is going to challenge you and say about this challenge, you need to feel that out for me. Know you're here to help the person grow so that the person can bring more, actually so few themselves.

And number three is about modeling yourself. What you expect others to do. Long digression to say you have to try that first deeply. And if none of that is working, which is more than 1 million, by the way, because, you know, not going to do that in just one moment, right?

Anita Brick: Right.

Jean-Philippe Courtois: You need to confront that in a positive way and make a hard call as a person because the values because of your challenge is something she cannot accept anymore. We, the team, are destroying the team dynamics in a very negative way for the entire team. I think at one point is a leader. You need to make your call on having one. Not anymore. That person in your team is still doing everything I talked about.

Anita Brick: What if you had a first impression? There's a related question. If you have a first impression of someone that you can't shake, and the first impression was not a good one, how do you break that initial old mindset that is really stuck and start over again? How do you do that in your own head so that you can move forward, and maybe you're going to discover a person who is amazing, but you're thinking about them from that very first impression, which may have been years ago.

Jean-Philippe Courtois: It's another very insightful question in many ways because, you know, as management leaders, as people, we have to make a number of decisions all the time, number one, hiring time, speaking people. And so a first impression could be during the interview process that it could be a great one, by the way, sometimes. And then you may have a different one when the person starts working and then you have some other moments, you see the person flourish or not. And then it's not just about hiring. So, but the way you create opportunities for people to truly do their best work.

I think it'd be myself, to be honest. It's hard because we all tend to kind of categorize people pretty quickly and say, oh, you know, Anita Kay, JP is this kind of person and you start adding an adjective or 2 or 3 and in your mind and you kind of stick those people with that category, that's not a good place to be. It's not a good place to be. To say that a person is defined clearly far beyond by more than just one objective. You may think about objectives. I don't know what could be better. It can be complacent, arrogant, very effective, or dysfunctional. Whatever. I mean, tell someone you're working. Well, I think you really want to make sure that you create a platform where the person has few obstacles, the person actually has the opportunity to be empowered to do the things you ask him to do.

You want to really be responsible as the person to, I mean, to hold you accountable? Absolutely. I've always been personally someone who is known, I think, to hold people accountable because I start by holding myself very, very accountable for what the company asks me to do. A musician asks me to do it, and I want to do the same with the people, but I want them to give me a chance to try, maybe sometimes to fail.

But certainly when you fail and we have all these failures, you know well, another to be showing some real ability to bounce back from the reasons you failed. And there's a number of reasons you can fail 70 for reasons tactically, strategically, but also just from a personal standpoint, it could be behavioral issues as well, management style. But having the person having a chance to look at yourself in the mirror and sometimes the way something and regalia says, leader, you should be here as well to provide very direct feedback, and it can be done in a constructive way, because leadership is not just about being, oh, you know, rosy, but everything you have said so great that literally everything you do well. So it's about being super clear about what you expect the person to do and creating that environment that I need. I can do the best job, but when things don't go the way I expected, you want to have a very caring but also very comfortable discussion with Anita and me on what happened.

Anita Brick: What do you think could be or could have been done differently? And what is it I can do to help you as a next step to bounce back or to do something different? It does really take a big person to do this. It really does. I think it also takes courage to be the kind of person who will have their mind changed as a leader, especially when people are feeling so much pressure. But if we don't do that, there's no hope for a change. So what you're talking about is so crucial, and everybody is going to do it at the pace that they can. Even running little experiments. Correct?

Jean-Philippe Courtois: No, completely. I think one of the ways as well as you think about those micro experiments, I think Anita, is the way, particularly when you think about big changes, which are happening more often. Often it's about really cutting the complexity of the changes in small bits. Right. And then in chunks is the book I love reading and using as a reference, like more than a decade actually, you know, which is actually switched. It talks about that analogy of the elephant and the writer. When you are a writer on the back of an elephant, the analogy is, it is all about your minds, your brains actually.

And as you know, I you know, I'm oversimplifying, of course, the brain system is basically the reptilian system we have in our minds, which is all about emotions, all about reacting to feel emotions, to moments in the jungle. Right? I mean, back to a perception specifically and reacting to that. And then you've got the other part of the brain, or it's not just one part of the brain.

As we got to know through neuroscientists now where you can analyze, you can actually decide and rationalize things, and you can direct the elephant where to go, as opposed just to jump here and there because he wants to go there because he is scared of it because he wants to eat or whatever it is. And so in many ways, with a change, with the noises or with a people, with someone, it's about also enabling to get that complexity in little bits of change so that the elephant can go as a very first step, walking in a direction, starting to learn how you guide the elephant, getting used to walk together and doing a few things together to restore personal health.

Positivity mindset to accomplish a lot more things in our lives. That's the way we think about it. Anita, I totally agree and I find this phrase a riff on a minimally viable product. I call it, minimum sustainable action. And it is those things, and it's based on neurobiology as well. It's those things we have complete control of that are absolutely doable and that we can succeed at, because every time we do, our brain fires up the endorphins and dopamine and serotonin and oxytocin, and it creates positive momentum.

So I'm totally on board with that. One of the things you said at the beginning about taking care of ourselves and an MBA student, and clearly the MBA students, many of them are working professionals as well. So they have work and school and family and uncertainty and all of this. And so he said, as corny as this may sound, I wanted to be the best I can be wherever I am.

Anita Brick: To be honest, this can really feel exhausting at times. How do you continue to be your best, and what advice would you have for an ordinary human being like myself?

Jean-Philippe Courtois: Yeah, well, there's a big, big question as well, for sure. I think this is where we need to be. Also, we need to apply some self-compassion to ourselves.

Anita Brick: Right.

Jean-Philippe Courtois: Because I learned that is also how we do ourselves. I mean, people get to know me, myself and Microsoft. I know that I can be quite demanding and people are demanding of you in a good way to achieve more. But it could be really, in a way, you know, push for people what I learned the way myself. I try to achieve in myself if there's no perfection in this world. And so for any of us, an MBA student, the leader of a large org manager or someone doing a you know, project, you want to bring the best of your capabilities. And of course, learning a process so they can grow from it. But don't set goals that are unreachable goals.

That is perfection. You can do that. No. So this is the first place. Anyway, it goes back to this big discussion we're having together later on, with more good, a discussion about the expectation you set for yourself. Yeah. It is so important. So important. You don't set an impossible goal for yourself. And again it doesn't mean you cannot be ambitious. Don't confuse the two things. Certainly I would say supporting yourself to bring the best growth in the process. So I think I would always start with that. And then I will always of course, learn and reflect from what I've done and achieved and what I could do differently in moral or in a different way, as a next step of my accomplishments, as a next set of events, that set of goals I may have.

But as we do that, please consider other ways that you get to do that. And you're very balanced in a way that is going to just preserve to make your own. You basically have health, energy, and stay in a very good shape day to day because life, whatever you do, is a marathon. It's not necessarily the sprints every week, every day, which are crazy. And that's very important to have this short and long term horizon in mind as you do things, as you try to, to deliver some pretty amazing goals for the future.

Anita Brick: I totally agree. And yeah, I want to press a little bit. Yeah. And one of the things that I think about is that when I'm not in a state of high stress, high pressure, I can keep all of those things that you're saying in mind.

I get it, and I can step back and I can do all of those things, and I know I'm not alone in this at the moment. If you're under stress and there are these demands and some of the demands you're making on yourself, how do you maintain that equilibrium as Jean Phillipe? How do you maintain that equilibrium when you're getting pulled in different directions? And maybe, just maybe, maybe you're even a little scared?

Jean-Philippe Courtois: Yeah. No, certainly, to be very practical and, and, you know, be also honest with you and all the listeners on the podcast, because what I'm going to show you is not something I've done a great job on necessarily all along the last 40 years of my life. So I want to be with that, I would see what I'm doing a lot more now. The best of the best seven, eight, nine years I would say now is the following. Number one is making sure I actually have a healthy life in the sense of taking care of my health, adding 5 to 6 times a week, physical workouts and whatever it is jogging, workouts, biking, which I love to do in Paris from time to time as well.

Or long walks as well. Having a routine like almost every day that makes such a difference than the two making sure during my day. So it's very tactical, but it seems so essential. Making sure of those micro poses I can use one minute to and learn, of course, to breathe really deeply, to basically get your body, your mind cleaned up, you know, with a debriefs between stressful moments and in love yourself to do that in some of the moments you may or not doing some meditation that some people do every day, I don't necessarily do that.

I would do that from time to time. Personally. That could help as well. Another thing, taking care of yourself as well to have this harmony you're talking about when stress is coming well, is taking care of your sleep, something I'm doing a better job now, which I wish I did a better job at. Honestly, when I was younger. You know, I'm using some tech as well to help me with a ring, but doing any commercially, it was fantastic. Wrinkle era, incredible level of depths of analytics on my deep sleep of nine REM, sleep, on the health variability. And I can see in my body, not even just looking at the apps when it's all blue, red, and the way I can optimize the quality of sleep when I go to bed and when I can recharge the muscle in the LG every day.

So those are very practical things. I'm injecting my day to day agenda, Anita, to make sure when stress happens because stress happens inevitably. Yes, I'm in a much better place physically, mentally to deal with that stress and to really deal with it very differently than the way I used to do it, probably and probably certainly ten, ten years ago.

Anita Brick: Yeah, yeah, thank you for that. So do you have time for one more question?

Jean-Philippe Courtois: I will do anything to please.

Anita Brick: Oh, wonderful. So we go back to where we started and think about someone who aspires to be really a terrific, positive leader. What are three things that a person could begin doing today to become the kind of leader who leaves a positive impact on their organization, and even beyond that, especially in the midst of so much uncertainty.

Jean-Philippe Courtois: It's hard for me to do these three things, obviously, but I like picking your favorite kids in a big family. You know, what I've been working on is my foundation for good is what we've called the nine powers of Positive leadership. And they are three by three. By three I mean three. But myself, three about me and others and three above me in the world.

So let me pick one over it. So again, very hard for me to not talk about. Yeah, I will try to do that for you anytime. I would say I would take the first one of the first foundations about myself, me and with me. I already talked a lot about taking myself, you know, so I'm not going to come back to that.

I would come back to this course. you know, with defining your purpose. Really? And it could start at the lower level, meaning really defining again where your talents, your analogy puts your neurology skills into sync together. When you are in the flow and you see the best version of yourself, capture that. Capture that as the way to document the best version of yourself and to start building your purpose.

That would be my number one vice number two, with others. And I've been practicing, you know, that kind of coaching methodology I'll share with you in one of your questions before on the catch like leader, which is really about key things and having that coach mindset, which is again, all about helping others to flourish and grow as opposed to you as a leader to solve all the problems.

Your team's in the world because you're so small. And I've been so small myself, telling my people, hey, this is the way to do it, I need to, so don't even think about it then and go and get it done, okay? And it is just to get to the next topic. No, don't do that. Let's let people actually grow and learn and bring some innovative solutions because people one, two, three levels down the size of you or how much smarter than yourself, but the real problems have to deal with, they are not you.

So that's number two. That's the coaching mindset to truly basically be curious and be lazy and often. And number three is all about which I'm a big believer of. What's wonderful is when you find a way to connect not just yourself but your team. And again, depending where you work could be a different way to define your team.

If you even out, you could be your family or extended family members. Okay. That's a way to define your team as well. And you, you bring that team in in some harmony of alignment between their individual team members. Purpose we talked about and the purpose of your team, of all of your company to achieve more. And that's super powerful because if you do that, then you find yourself in a position where in many years of your days and of your life, you can truly bring the best of yourself in something that is so meaningful for you, but also some meaningful for the larger organization that is just going to grow and build more impact all together.

And that to me, the same kind of power when you bring that energy all together exponentially, is going to inevitably create a positive impact on the world. Whatever the impact is that you need to choose, of course, is your team, you all. That's something that you have the power to do and get done.

Anita Brick: Wow, that is so well put and we'll have to talk about those other six. We didn't get to another time, but that tells us so much. Thank you, thank you, thank you not just for being here today, which I am deeply grateful for, but for who you are and the world and the changes that you're making through your life and your actions. Because we can each do some of that. I agree. If we all take a step or two forward in that direction, think about the possibilities and think about the transformation that can occur in the world. So thank you so much again for making the time.

Jean-Philippe Courtois: Thank you so much, Anita. For me, it was a real pleasure to have a great discussion dialog about real life questions. I'm sure you have MBA students and many others as well.

Anita Brick: And lucky for really to keep sharing, supporting you, learning from all of you as well on your journey to to become a policy leader. Because I think the world needs more positive leaders to respond to the bigger needs of the world.

Jean-Philippe Courtois: Yes, each one of us can do something about it.

Anita Brick: Absolutely. And I have listened, and I'm going to continue to listen. And I encourage you to do the same. Go visit the Positive Leadership podcast that John Felipe does. It is wonderful. I listened to the episode with Mel as well. You will be inspired as I was in San Felipe. Thank you again.

Jean-Philippe Courtois: Thank you so much Anita.

Anita Brick: And thank you all for listening. This is Anita Brick with CareerCast at Chicago Booth. Keep advancing.