Master the Networking Meeting

Anita Brick: Hi, this is Anita Brick, and welcome to CareerCast at Chicago Booth. To help you advance in your career. Today we're delighted to be speaking with Nathan Perez. He is an award-winning author of this whole series that go around the 20-Minute Networking Meeting, National Speaker, and executive career coach at Career Innovation, a consultancy that works with all different experience levels of job seekers. Prior to career innovation, Nathan worked in the executive search industry in the research function. Welcome and thank you so much for making time for us today.

Nathan Perez: Thank you, Anita, thank you very much for taking the time and for having me on the podcast. I've really been looking forward to this discussion. I know it's a tricky topic. Really looking forward to our talk.

Anita Brick: Me too. I'll learn from you. You'll learn from me. Will come up with some new things together.

So let's jump in. Here's an alum who's a little bit afraid of the whole process. And he said, I get stuff before the networking meeting even starts. How do you go about setting up a meeting with someone you want to meet and you don't even know? By the way, for disclosure, I'm an introvert.

Nathan Perez: Hey, fellow introvert. So am I.

First of all I’ll say that introversion, you know, has nothing to do with it. What it really has to do with, and this is how you can get away from being so much of an introvert, is being relevant. Second, and most important, you have to remember that time has most to do with accepting networking meetings. Good use of time is when you've done your research on your potential contact. What do you know about that person that you believe that they can help you in the first place? And this is what I meant about being relevant. Identify what about that person's experience or their background that you believe that can help you. And then you write a short, friendly note, four sentences long, that explains what you're looking for, who you are, what about their background, how much time you want to cover, and then that's it. So really it's like four or five sentences.

Anita Brick: Okay, so an MBA student maybe is concerned about the next phase. And she said, I get super excited once the person I want to meet confirms that we're actually going to have a conversation. Then I start to panic. How do you recommend that we start off a networking meeting without the monologue of tell me about yourself.

Nathan Perez: Right. Well, first, you don't have to panic. There's no panic. We panic when we don't feel prepared. You should always have an agenda for any kind of meeting. It kind of gives you and your contact an idea of where you're going to go, what your discussion is going to look like. What about this person did you think could help you? You're gathering information. If you believe this person knows or understand something that you don't, that's what we should be focused on here.

Now, having said that, it's really critical to have a 60-second snapshot of your background. Your instinct is right about having a long explanation of your background. That's just too much information for someone to keep track of in such a short meeting. So you just need 60 seconds. All it takes to give just highlights of the most relevant and important parts of your background that you want to focus on with your contact. You're going to talk a little bit about how many years you've had, an experience where you've worked in the past, any other relative experience that you've had that relates to that, and then prior titles that you had. And you string that all together. In the book is what we call the great overview.

Anita Brick: Okay. It still sounds like you're pitching. How do you take it from pitch to creating rapport and engagement

Nathan Perez: As far as the meeting goes, the first step of this meeting is a great introduction of yourself. And this is really easy. It's a handshake. We talk a little bit. Maybe if this was in person, you talk about what you saw in the lobby, but then you also talk about how you're connected. That's beginning the rapport. We understand who and what we have in common. Just a little bit of talk that takes about a minute. And then you're going to the second step: giving your great overview, your background that allows someone to gain perspective on your background and experience.

Anita Brick: But step one is very, very important. It's a combination of doing your preparation and also being observant once you either are in the office or wherever you're meeting. Ideally it's in their office, not in a coffee place, because then you can learn more about who they are, how things are done, and sometimes, depending on what the background is, you can do the same resume. That is a really great place to start.

And then I do agree that you share something about yourself. Step one create that engagement and rapport in a very genuine way based on your prep.

Nathan Perez: You always do research on the people that you're meeting with and even their organization. But this allows you to actually to begin a discussion, right? “Hi Anita, it's so nice to meet you. I was reading your LinkedIn profile, and I understand you've been in Chicago for quite some time.” There's a lead-in to it, and I'm talking about things that, of course, you can talk about. And you say back to me, “yeah, Nathan, I've been here for X amount of years and at the university for this amount,” and now we're just kind of warming into it. And it's just a natural discussion. It's stuff that we would talk about anyway, but we're just being intentional with it here because we're trying to have a brief meeting.

I want to tie this back into the, you know, the pitch. A different way of looking at this is just putting into perspective your professional background for someone to understand. How do you talk about these things so the other person understands what your role is and what your responsibilities are? The way you articulate your background can change frequently depending on who you're talking to. From there, this is how people get a feel for you and your experience. If you think about it that way, though, you should be able to enjoy talking about your background. If so, then it's not a pitch and all you're doing is just putting it into perspective. Just an explanation. But what happens in turn is someone goes, oh, so do you do this? And so forth and so on.

Anita Brick: I like that a lot. People struggle between the balance of having a friendly conversation that's open-ended, hoping the other person is going to help them, and being pretty direct about what they want.

So here's another MBA student. And he said, when I set up a networking meeting, I usually want something specific from the other person but I rarely share what I want because I'm worried if I do that in my initial outreach, they're going to say no to the whole meeting. Help! Thank you.

Nathan Perez: First, I'll say it never hurts to ask. You should ask. But having said that, how you ask is key. Keep in mind this goes to that part of the sentence. I usually want something specific from the other person. That becomes very about us, sort of a take attitude; I want something specific. Now, if you wanted something specific out of a meeting or you're looking for specific information, that's one thing.

I say this because it's, I think, a common approach for people to go, okay, that person has something and I'm going to get it by the end of the meeting. That's my goal. You know, and what we're doing here is we're kind of cheerleading ourself, but we're not really taking into account the most important part of networking, which is the relationship building.

So going into a meeting with “I want something specific” – that attitude usually often turns into “no.”

Anita Brick: Agree.

Nathan Perez: So maybe instead of going into a meeting with the expectation of getting something, go into the meeting trying to gather information about what it is you're trying to learn about. If you think about it, you're going to get the same thing. But your approach to the meeting and how you're asking the questions, that's what's going to speak to you about your contact and how much information they're going to give you from there, or who they're going to want to introduce you to because you're leaving such a great impression by running a meeting like this, right?

If you are ready to offer help in return for the information and time that you're getting in this meeting with that person, that is going to be a really positive thing, and that person is going to want to help you further, because they see that you're the kind of person who gets it. This is not about one. It's not one-sided. It's about reciprocity. Both sides.

Anita Brick: Of course, there is asking for information and there's asking for information. You say this if you can find information out without speaking to the person, don't ask that. What is the level that you are able to actually ask for information?

Nathan Perez: Do you start asking where you run out of answers? So if you start simply on the website, you go to the about tab. You're going to get a high level overview. Sometimes they'll be links in that overview that gets a little further into whatever that is they'd like to point you to. You're getting a general overview, but this is where you have to do a little homework and realize, okay, this is saying that they're broken into five divisions. They're in a whole region or across the nation and so forth. But this is you gaining a picture for yourself.

Here's a pro-tip people usually ask, what questions should I be asking? The answer is anything that makes you go hm, right? So you're reading that big overview and it's got all this information and you're like, you've got five offices in the region. They're a national..are they a national thing? Hm? There's your question. Are you national and you write off to the side “national,” look up national, and that's still your homework. Come back to that and you go throughout. And anything that makes you go “hmm,” write it down. You go a little further with these things you've written down and see if you can get answers.

Now this is all, of course, just the stuff that's going to be relevant. Like is it important to you that they're national? If it is, then that might be a question that you ask. That's how you start breaking out smaller questions from those other little “hmm” moments.

Anita Brick: Got it. So how do you do the same thing about the person? So now you're at the company and my guess is you should have done your homework about the function in industry. How do you do that same what you described from now I'm meeting with Nathan. What would you tell me to do to prepare to meet you?

Nathan Perez: So now I want to know about this person I'm meeting. Did he go local, regional, and now is he national? Yeah. He's it looks like he's national. So I would like to know about what that track looked like. Now we've got to be careful here because now we want to know what his path may have looked like, but still, that could be really general and broad. What specifically is it marketing that got him into that leadership position as CEO? Did he follow that path? People like anybody listening now get pretty creative. No, I didn't have to take those kinds of courses or actually, because I started in a larger company that allowed me to have a more senior position and a smaller one. That's why I have CEO now. Before that, I was a senior marketing person. Now our imagination’s rolling a little bit. Oh, there are different ways to approach and get these senior positions and have leadership and responsibilities.

Anita Brick: In addition to knowing their path, is there anything else that you would do to be prepared to ask less transactional and more relationship-building questions?

Nathan Perez: All of this is a journey for everybody. No one just got embedded into a role. Everybody's had to go through their own journey, job search, and career development. It can be challenging. It can be daunting. It can be really–what do I want to say–emotional. And that's a big thing. It can get really emotional for us. Well, other people have gone through this experience as well, and you can ask these kinds of questions of other people to understand what that looks like. The reason you would do that isn't just because it helps you build a relationship with that person, but it's going to give you the lay of land and what to expect, especially if it's someone that you admire or respect, and hearing their own challenges with career development, which involves the personal aspect. That can be really informative to your own path.

Anita Brick: I like that it's getting the specifics to understand, as you said, the lay of the land and also create the relationship.

Here's an MBA student who does pretty well. It sounds like gathering the information and then it doesn't go anywhere. I am so eager to get as much information as I can from the other person during the meeting. I have nothing left to ask in a follow-up email or call. How can I give? The other individual I met with a reason to meet with me again?

One of the things that I recommend is, well, first of all, don't ask everything. I mean, leave some things open and maybe even come to that meeting with a sense of curiosity which allows you to have your agenda, but also be willing to improvise if it makes sense to do that. Do you see that work?

Nathan Perez: Yeah.

Anita Brick: I find that this is a persistent pain point for students, alumni, friends of CareerCast, people I know. They want to meet someone and especially if the person is more senior, influential, all of those things, they may feel that they have one time and they ask as many questions as they can in the short period of time that they have. And and they don't leave any room for a second conversation.

Nathan Perez: Let's just say you had 10 or 15 questions. That's a lot to ask in a really short meeting. It's not only going to be a lot for your contact to answer, but it's going to be a lot for you to take notes on. If you're going to have a discussion that's going to be serious about getting information, you're going to be taking notes.

So instead of having a whole bunch of questions, separate them to the most important and then focus on three or four of them. Take notes as you go along and stop here and there to follow up with a question. So if you and I are having a discussion and we hit on one particular topic, you give me a response. I say, “Oh, I didn't know that yet. So what you mean is…” and then I follow up just with a clarification question that gets you a little bit more information, still allows you to move on to your other questions, but also allows you to go back and follow up on later. Let's say that meeting is now complete. You now have the notes with the follow-up stuff that you asked, and if you wanted to go back to that person again, all you have to be, and I've said this earlier, be relevant. You can be relevant according to what you discussed in the last conversation. You have notes, and you also have some follow-up questions that was the beginning of you going a little bit deeper. So now you can say, “I really enjoyed our discussion about ABC. I learned this, that and the other.” Those are your notes. “And we talked a little bit (and this is one of your sub notes right where you went a little deeper) we talked a little bit about this. Would you be open to having a 20-minute conversation that's more about this here?” Now we've taken a million questions and now we have a million different discussions because we can take just one and go into depth, just one topic, because there is no one answer, one umbrella answer for any one discussion. There's a lot of details and moving parts and factors and things that go into any one topic, industry experience, and so forth. So if you just kind of slow it down a little bit, look at your questions, prioritize what you want to know. Then you can have three or four really great discussions.

And the key is that the real, this is where it becomes successful because you are so succinct in that and having a still pretty dense, informative meeting, that leaves a solid impression with other people. As a professional out there in the world, this is exactly what they love in the professional world is people who are prepared and do this. It's inspiring and it leaves that positive impression. And that is how you end up with a meeting with that person again.

Anita Brick: I like that. The thing about it is, is it’s more personal. It shows that you are insightful and that this is not just transaction because you're thinking. You're thinking now, you're thinking about, implications of the conversation. And that's exciting for the other person, especially if you're asking questions they don't usually get because most people ask the same questions. Tell me about yourself. Tell me about your path. But if like you said, if you have your 12 questions, then that's fine.

Know what your top three or maybe even five are and focus on those. Come from a place of curiosity and then write down. And you mentioned and I agree with this, let someone know that you're taking notes. That's why it's often better to use paper rather than a phone or a tablet. And if you're on Zoom, absolutely let them know so they don't think that you're sending a text message to your best friend.

I like this because what it does is it allows both of you to think in the moment, later on, and who knows, the other person might come back to you and say, “Nathan, that was really an interesting conversation. Would you be open to it?” So I've seen that happen as well.

Nathan Perez: Exactly.

Anita Brick: So everybody wants help and often the help is who asks, can you make intros for me? Where else can you help me with connections?

So here's another Boothie and the Boothie said: I know I'm meeting someone with lots of connections. How and when do I ask for them to share some of their connections with me?

Nathan Perez: That would happen toward the end of your meeting after you've had your discussion. So in the 20-minute networking meeting, the great discussion that's 12 to 15 minutes or so, comprised of five key questions, the first three are designed specifically for your contact. The fourth one is asking for more names. And it's like I said earlier, it's not about what you say, it's about how you say it.

For instance, “Anita, thank you so much for all this information. It's been really great. Can you think of someone else and product marketing that I could speak to?” And doesn't that sound like a natural part of what was a longer discussion?

Anita Brick: Yeah. It could. How do you know that you've gained the trust of the other person so that it doesn't seem transactional?

Nathan Perez: Well, that's not our purpose or our focus. Your purpose is to ask that question. If they've got a name and they wish to share it, they can. If they don't know, they’ll say so. It is just about asking. And again, the phrasing, it helps. I mean, you can be direct. Can you think of anybody else I could talk to? You can do that. It's all going to depend on what that discussion, the context, and circumstances of that particular discussion.

I know for me it comes out in all different ways. It's just appropriate for that discussion because it's natural. And the example that I gave is just pretty simple. “You and I just had a discussion about product marketing. Can you think of anybody else that I could ask these same three questions?” There's another way of being able to say it that helps that other person understand very quickly what kind of meeting you're going to run with the person they introduce you to. Remember, those are valued contacts you're hoping to meet. And if you're not running your sharp, crisp meeting, your reputation goes along with that person.

On the other hand, if it's a really solid meeting that shows positive light on that person, the person is going to be proud to have sent you there.

Anita Brick: You are so right. And I think that's where things often fall apart because people don't realize that, yes, this meeting is real, it is alive. It is self-contained and can have value in and of itself. It's also a dress rehearsal. The expectation of how you're going to treat others with whom you may get connected, the way you treat the person in that meeting, they're going to assume you're not going to treat their connections any better than that.

Nathan Perez: This is one of those ways that your reputation can end up preceding you. Depending on the networking circles, you know, all industries are small in their own little way. And when you leave a solid impression with someone that can't help you at the moment, you're still top of mind because you've left a solid impression. And then they talk to someone else who's in the industry, who's looking for someone kind of like you, who pops to mind.

But now just imagine that negative or that meeting didn't go so well and you have a negative position, right? Now you're not even top of mind. But at least having met and had the discussion, you could be top of mind when something is mentioned that’s appropriate for you. But then I remember how it felt to meet with you and the impression I got once you left. Will I mention it? That's critical. We can never take for granted the impression that we leave with people.

And there's a first impression and a final impression. The first is kind of how it sets out how things are going to go, but your final impression is just as critical, because it's how you leave people thinking and feeling about you. And you want it to be positive. It's critical to respect people in that regard.

Anita Brick: This comes to a question from an alum. He was asking: part of the close is to say thank you. How do you recommend thanking the other person? The words “thank you” don't seem like enough.

Nathan Perez: They are. Try to step back and look at the greater whole of business. It's like you've said a couple of times, Anita, business tends to be transactional. You got something I want, I got something you want. Maybe that involves money. We exchange that and then off we go. There's no real relationship-building about it. And when you say thank you, especially with eye contact, this is why it's important. Prioritize your meetings to be in person. Next best thing is probably video, because you're still kind of eye to eye. But say thank you.

And if that's not enough, you can say thank you and fill in a blank. “Thank you so much for your time today.” “Thank you so much for your expertise.” “Thank you so much for your opinions or this other perspective.” “Thank you so much for introducing me or giving me the information of this person.” Just be specific about it. That allows that other person to understand that you really got it, because you're specific in what you're thanking them for.

It becomes really clear just how much you've got out of this meeting.

Anita Brick: I agree, I think in the impact, like you started to say, you're letting them know the impact they had on you, which the data proves that you're going to do more for me if I let you know the impact and that pro-social behavior that you shared with me, you're going to share more broadly. So I love the idea of the specificity and the impact. That's really, really good.

Nathan Perez: Now this is really important. That's only half of our answer here. The other part of saying thank you is, how can I help you in return for what I just thanked you for–your time, your expertise, whatever it may be.

Now, here's the thing. When it comes to this kind of meeting, it's really not expected by people. We just talked about this, business tends to be transactional. And so it doesn't really go much further. So people aren't going to really expect the question, much less be able to give you an answer. Now what does that mean? It means you will still have been prepared, because before this meeting, you did your research on that person and you will be able to offer suggestions.

You say: “Thank you so much for your time and your expertise. I really appreciate this discussion. Now, before I leave, can you think of anything that we just discussed, is there any way that I could help you in return?” And now Anita, you're on the spot. You're like, I didn't expect this question, but probably not. And so I say to you, no worries.

So, you know, you had mentioned that you have a niece that is in the arts. I have a 20-year career in the arts as a professional actor. I'm happy to have discussions with you with her, if that's helpful. Or I'm in the executive recruitment world, I can give you some feedback on the process when it comes to career development.

The point is, I'm giving some ideas because that person draws a blank, and then you put into that blank some ideas of ways that you know, that you're able to help and return. That question alone is a huge thank you to the other person, because now it's really clear how much you appreciated that meeting. And by offering to help in return.

Anita Brick: I love it. So then there's the aftercare and there's another Boothie who said, what are three positive ways to stay in touch with the person who meets with you?Nathan Perez: First, I'll say this. There's a million different ways to stay in touch. But however, to stay in touch in time, over the course of time, to stay relevant and what you've had in common, or like a topic that you covered in past discussions. Remember, this is where notes are important because you can go back, maybe it’s been like a few months, you got to go back, remember what you talked about. But if you stay relevant and you say, “hey, Anita, I was just sending you this article. You and I had a discussion about career development and podcast, in case you hadn't seen this.” And then we're in touch. “Oh, good to hear from you, Nathan. Thanks so much for the article.”

And that's really it. In a future communication, I could say, “hey, do you have a few minutes? I would love to catch up a little bit and ask you about X, Y, and Z.” Now what are X, Y, and z? Other things that were in my notes. So it's just about staying relevant, keeping notes. That's important. And remember people can really feel the impact when you remember a discussion you had quite some time ago.

Anita Brick: It is a big deal. Would you have time for one more question?

Nathan Perez: Sure.

Anita Brick: Okay. We've talked about a lot of things. This is a non-linear process. It has all of these different elements that make human beings who they are. Predictable ones, the ones that are predictable, and so on. What are the top three things that you would suggest that someone do once, multiple times, to increase opportunities for themselves and others in the context of a networking meeting?

Nathan Perez: Top three things. Get out there. You have to be intentionally social. There will be no opportunities if you don't know people, can't create opportunities without meeting new people. Don't get me wrong, I'm an introvert. We're going to touch on that real quick. What defines an extrovert is someone who recharges and they get a lot of energy when they've been around groups of people. And when you're an introvert, by contrast, you get that same kind of energy when you've had a sufficient amount of time to self-reflect. I'm definitely in that camp, so I had a very difficult time earlier in my career. Intentionally be social. Tell yourself I'm going to go out there and I know it's going to be a good experience when I'm done, because it will. Because you have learned and you will experience it, and it will make it easier as you go forward. Intentionally go out there. Now be specific: I'm going to go meet with this kind of association. This is my hobby or this is my job or this workforce or this career group can be intentional, any one of those things so you can focus your thoughts. You don't have to necessarily go to like a networking, like a party kind of networking. Although that is a wonderful thing to do, like during the holidays. Okay, so that'd be one. Get out there, create the opportunities by meeting people.

Then do your reading and research, deeper reading and research in what you're interested in, or what you would like to know about. The reason why? The more you have to offer others, the more others are able to bring to you not just information, but introduction to new people. Here's what I mean. I have a discussion with you, Anita, right now, and I only get two or three tidbits, and then I have a future discussion with someone else, and I say, I was just talking about that. Here are my two or three different tidbits. They go, oh yes, yes. And you see those things that you're telling me and now they give you more information and now you have broadened your information base. That allows you to get to the next person and so forth and so on. Each time you do that, that allows the other person to get into a deeper discussion with you, because you already know more of what you guys are talking about. Deeper reading.

And the third one, know your value. Your value is going to evolve. You're never one thing, but if you can get a grip on what you currently have as value and you are one walking database of experiences and knowledge; you have everything to offer. You just have to take a look at yourself and understand what value you currently have and allow you yourself to be a resource. And what that does is it brings people to you.

Anita Brick: Just like you are. You are an amazing resource, and so I am so glad that you made time for me and us today. I would say that you summarized things so well.

Nathan Perez: Thank you.

Anita Brick: That is so important. So it's courage; be out there. This group is really good at doing the deep dive, but don't stop at the first level of information. And I really love what you said. I know for myself–you probably are like this too–I talk to people, I learn things, and then I synthesize them in a new way, and I'm able to bring more value to the next person. I think that's super important.

Nathan Perez: I love the way you put that. I love the way you put that. You synthesize it. That's kind of how it feels. That's kind of when I do that in my own mind, it's reworking its way in a way that I understand.

Anita Brick: Yes, yes, you're absolutely right. I think people sometimes forget the last one, the value that they bring, because if they're making a pivot, sometimes they discount what they bring. So such a great way to end it. It has to be the beginning, middle, and a lot of people feel like that. Everyone else knows exactly how to do this and they're the only one. And you've made it very clear that they're not the only one, that we all experience this at some time in some way, regardless of what stage we are in our careers.

Nathan Perez: Right.

Anita Brick: Thank you again.

Nathan Perez: Thank you.

Anita Brick: I really appreciate that you made time. I know you're a very busy person and your insights and wisdom, you know, very valuable. And so thank you so much for doing that.

Nathan Perez: I appreciate that, Anita, and thank you too. It's my pleasure and my honor.

Anita Brick: Thank you. And thank you all for listening. This is Anita Brick with CareerCast at Chicago Booth. Keep advancing.