Create a Bridge When There Aren't Any

Anita Brick:
Hi, this is Anita Brick and welcome to CareerCast at Chicago Booth. To help you advance in your career, today we're delighted to be speaking with Vicki Oliver. She's a leading career development expert and the multiple bestselling author of five books. She is so well renowned. I don't even know how we were able to get you today, Vicki, but thank you for making time for us.

Vicki Oliver:
Thank you for having me. I really, really, really appreciate being here.

Anita Brick:
Well, I'm excited and you know the thing about the topic of how to build bridges when there aren't any, I'm curious, what's your take on why they collapse in the first place in the workplace?

Vicki Oliver:
I feel that a lot of times they collapse because there's an organizational change. For example, let's say you have been working at a company for five years. You get along with your boss, you get along with your boss's boss. It is all working really smooth. Then your boss gets fired, let's just suppose. Then they bring in somebody new and that person who's new often is given a mandate to bring in other new people. The person who comes in may not want to build a bridge with you necessarily. Maybe he's looking at your salary level and saying, "I know somebody who makes a little bit less than her and I can bring my person in," so now you have a problem because you want to have a nice bridge to this new boss, but the boss doesn't have any interest in having a bridge to you. That is some of the reasons that they can collapse.
Another thing could be, for example, you're working at a company, everything's going beautifully. You've been there for two years and then that company merges with another company, so now there's all new players, and there's awkwardness and there's a different culture that comes in. That can be a reason.

Anita Brick:
Well, it's interesting because there's a question that captures those and an alum said, he said, "My manager inherited me during a merger and isn't happy to have me on the team. While she admits I have talents that benefit the team, she also let me know that she would be very happy and support my moving to another team or even another company." What could be a starting point to create a meaningful connection when she doesn't want one?

Vicki Oliver:
Great question. I believe in that situation, when someone has come in, it is imperative to make an appointment with that person two days after they arrive and sit down and first try to have a meeting of the minds about your mutual goals. If you skip that meeting, if you don't have it, and I have worked at places where I didn't do it for whatever reason, it doesn't work out. You can't let your boss become too grounded in their new role before sitting down with them. Don't be shy about sitting down with the person. Now once it's already happened, which seems to be the question here. First, I might explore in this situation what they mean. If they move you to another team, maybe that is good for you, maybe it's learning new skills. I wouldn't automatically discount what the person is suggesting.

If they're saying, "I want you on a different team," maybe that's a good thing for both of you and I might consider taking up the person on it, but that said, it's a good idea to try to figure out what your goals are, how you see your fit in the team, write down things that people have said about you, positive reviews. This is the time to gather your positive reviews from people, the glowing emails that you received on the great job you've been doing, and to sit down with the person and to try to persuade that person that actually you are an asset and you can help them shine.

Anita Brick:
Well, I like that. This is from a student, an MBA student, and he said, "I hate to admit it, but I think I am the problem. I stall out opportunities to build bridges as I don't want to get too close and be vulnerable and hurt, especially at work. What are some ways I can take responsibility for my emotions and negative reactions and be open to more bridge building?"

Vicki Oliver:
I think this is an excellent, excellent question. Part of the issue sometimes is that some of us are introverts and I know I am, I am an introvert, so I don't really want to hang out with everybody after hours, going to bars till all hours in the morning. I don't really, really like that. I am a quiet person and I like to do my job and get it done, smile at people, but then leave and have the rest of my life. If you do feel like you are on the more introverted side, first of all, it's a benefit, so don't think it's a negative quality. It's good. You get more energy when you're alone. That's the thing.

Introverts like to be alone and they get energy and that's why they're great at their jobs a lot of times. But then there's the other side of the job, which is getting along with people, socializing with people. I would say don't push yourself completely out of your comfort zone, but take little tiny steps and maybe offer to grab a cup of coffee with somebody instead of thinking of it as like, "Oh my gosh, I have to go to the company party over the holidays," which I hate, tackle people one-on-one.

"Oh, do you want to grab a cup of coffee? Would you like to catch a glass of wine with me after work," like one-on-one, make headway. Then when you conquer them one-on-one, it's going to be easier for you to go to the company party, because you will have already created the bridges one-on-one with people.

Anita Brick:
It seems like a lot of the questions are around this very issue. Another one is an alum who said, "I'm working with a client who isn't easy to connect with. He isn't a big fan of immigrants and he tolerates me because I have my MBA from Booth and work for a global consulting firm he has hired." How do you advise people you work with to create a connection that is more than just being tolerated?

Vicki Oliver:
That question almost brings tears to my eyes.

Anita Brick:
Me, too.

Vicki Oliver:
So emotional and it's just terrible that this person has to experience this, but I feel one way to get to know clients a little bit is to try to talk to them about things that are not business related. This is actually more in a different book that I wrote, but I'll talk about it here. Sometimes the bridge is through the extraneous items like the hobbies that people have, the sports teams they love, even the news, I'm going to say no politics, a movie you saw that you enjoyed, an art exhibit that they saw that they enjoyed. People are too eager to just talk about business.

I think to bring a little bit of element of fun and extracurricular hobbies to your conversations with your clients is going to make you feel more well-rounded. They're going to like you more. If you can find a connection that you both love, you both love the same team, that is going to be so helpful for you to be able to talk about that. You went to this baseball game, let's say, you both love that team or you both love a Netflix series that you're watching. If you can find the ties that bind you beyond business, I think it's going to just make for a much better conversation overall.

Anita Brick:
It's interesting. There's another question. "It seems like there are a lot of divisions and even things like sports teams could be an issue, so in my workplace there is a lot of friction that has little to do with the work we're doing. We are an AI tech company and we're doing some really exciting projects and growing rapidly, yet there are divisions. It could be sports team rival to politics and it's really palpable. How can I be friendly and connected when I don't know if what I say is going to make them angry and yell at me?"

Vicki Oliver:
For some people, sports are almost like a religion. At the end of the day, a game is a game, is a game and I feel like you have to be able to say, "Well, you know what? I'm not a Patriots fan. Good job that your team did or whatever." Watch the team play sometime, the one you don't like that the other guy likes, watch the team play and say, "Oh, you know what? I did actually buckle down and watch that game and you know what? Your team won. Congratulations." Sometimes you just have to laugh it off because it is, at the end of the day, just a game.

Anita Brick:
How do you go from that, which I get and the range of sports teams to politics was just two ends of their thought process, but what do you do when you're scared to speak up because they jump all over you? How do you do that in a small way when you're not sure if it is safe to do so?

Vicki Oliver:
Try to find a neutral area where tempers are not so heated. Try to introduce people to something you enjoy doing. That would be the smart way to do it. You can't just avoid them.

That's the problem. You can't just retreat. That's going to really hurt you. You know what I mean?

Anita Brick:
Oh, yeah.

Vicki Oliver:
You need to find the common area. Maybe there's food that you guys both, maybe there's a restaurant that you both went to that you like, fun things that just don't raise hackles. Try to look for them. You are walking around in their office, try to see what's there. Is there a photograph there that you can comment on? Or do they have a nice piece of art on the wall that you can mention? Try to find an area of commonality with people and I think it'll be good. The other thing specifically about building bridges, I think that's important, I would say don't try to get credit all the time. I feel like a lot of times there'll be a team endeavor. There'll be somebody perhaps leading the team and then, let's say, you secure the new piece of business or whatever it is you win, but then afterwards everybody is like, "Well, it was my idea to do this. It was my idea to do that." Try to look at yourself.

For example, let's say you have a boss who hogs your credit. I think you should look at it more like you're trying to make your boss look good. You try to have the whole team get credit and not be so "I, I , I" about it. I need the credit. I think A, people will give you credit if you start saying, "Oh, I'm so happy to be on this team. We are fantastic together. Joe came up with this idea, and Bill did this, and Bonnie did that." Then people think about, "Well, maybe I should credit you for what you did." It's not sublimating your ego to do this. It's just I think being smart about trying to give credit where it should be due and if you don't get credit on one assignment, if you don't get the credit you deserve, there are other tacks you can take besides saying, "I did this, I did this."

That will crush a bridge if you aren't getting the credit that you deserve. I think there are other ways to tackle it, but I don't think it should be in a group meeting. I think in a group meeting you want to be generous with credit and really talk about people and what they contributed and then they're going to look for ways to pay you back with the credit.

Anita Brick:
Yes, I agree. I do think though that on an individual basis it's very important to document what you've done and the impact that you've had in whatever form you use spreadsheet or an app or whatever because when you do it you probably have the greatest ability to have the important details. Having that as backup is really important, because if someone says, "Well, what did you do," and then you can tell them. There is always someone on the team who wants to take credit for everything. Fortunately, I'm not on a team like that. I like the generosity of spirit in the group and then make sure that you have clarity about what you did do so that if you need it at some point for a review or whatever, it's also there, but I like the idea because generosity opens people's, dare I say, heart.

Vicki Oliver:
Yeah, I agree with you, by the way. Definitely keep records. Write yourself meticulous notes. What was your idea? What happened to it? Keep any glowing email that you received. If somebody, let's say a client, if a client says, "Hey, you did a great job on that," it's okay to say, "Would you mind popping an email to my boss and letting him know as well?" You try to advocate for yourself. I'm just saying though, there is always that one person that's like the credit snatcher who's trying to take all the credit away and it is so annoying when you're standing there in a meeting afterwards where you should be celebrating and you're not getting credit that you deserve, but if you start crediting other people, they are going to return the favor and you will be credited.

Anita Brick:
Agree. Here's a tricky situation. An MBA said, "I am on a project with someone who has told others he doesn't like me. I am the lead on the project and need to have a support. What are a couple of things I could do to start a conversation with him to build a bridge and create a positive outcome?"

Vicki Oliver:
I feel for this person so much. That is so awful to know. There's one thing to feel that somebody doesn't like you but to know it conclusively is just the worst feeling and then to have to work with that person is very, very tough. I would try to tackle it head on, actually. I might consider going into that person's office, asking if you could grab a cup of coffee with that person outside the office walls, and laying it on the line and saying, "Heard through the grapevine that you're not a fan of mine." Try to make it light. Always try to lighten it. Don't try to make things worse. Try to lighten them and make them a little bit better by your tone. I would say don't march in when you first hear it, let it settle. Might take a couple of weeks for your anger to simmer down about it, but I would say do go in and say you'd like to grab a cup of coffee with the person, you'd like to talk things over with that person outside the office walls for like 20 minutes.
You don't want to have lunch with the person, you just want to clear the air is what I would say. You want to clear the air. Then when you go with that person, I would say "I've been hearing through the grapevine that you're not my biggest fan. We really need to be able to work together seamlessly on this project and so I'm just hoping we can thrash it out here right now. What can I improve so that we can work better together?" Their first instinct will probably be like, "Who told you that? How did you hear that?" I wouldn't bend to that. I would not do that because that makes it worse. Don't tell him who told you. Just say you heard it and you want to clear the air. What can you do to make things better? Just that peace offering on your part is going to help a little bit and maybe there is something that you're doing that you don't even realize you're doing.

For example, maybe the person says, "Well, you interrupt me too much," and you don't even realize that you're interrupting the person when they're trying to speak. There could be some verbal thing you're doing, or maybe they don't feel included. Well, you can include them more. They may have grievances. You need to be in a frame of mind where you can hear them and be prepared to take a note or two down so that you guys can reach an amicable accord.

Anita Brick:
Okay. If that person came to me, even if I did say it, I'm going to be on the defensive. How do you set it up so we don't throw the person into defensive mode?

Vicki Oliver:
They're going to be less defensive if you're out of the office, you're just enjoying a cup of coffee with them. The main thing is you want to clear the air. I believe in honesty with this situation, I really do. The other person may feel weird about it, but you know what? It's good if they feel a little bit off-put because now they know that you have allies. They're going to be less likely, I think, to badmouth you behind your back after that conversation. With so often the main thing is to be calm and reasonable. Even if they do get upset, even if they do get defensive, if you are calm and you are reasonable, they're going to be able to see that and I think it makes them say, "Well wait a second, this person's so calm and reasonable, why do I hate her so much?" I think it'll help.

Anita Brick:
Okay, all right, I like that. Here's one. It's still a bit of an issue but it's not as deep. I think as that last one. An MBA student said, "I'm in a new job in a new city and I feel like an outsider. While my job is fun and I'm learning, I don't know how to really be part of the team. They've been together for more than a few years and are very solid. It's not that they're excluding me, I'm just not seeing it as one of them. Any help is greatly appreciated. Thanks, Ricky."

Vicki Oliver:
Yeah, that's an interesting question. I think that sometimes we have to lower our expectations a little bit. If there's a clique entrenched in an office, they're not going to open up that fast to a new person coming in, probably. They're probably not going to, so here again I think, can I reach out to these people and do it that way? I don't think they're going to open the walls to you by, "Oh, can I join in on your drink after hours?" I think it's better to try to go one-on-one and meet people after hours and just do it subtly and give yourself the breathing room and the time that it takes. It takes time to build a friendship. It takes time to build a bridge and I think you just have to say, "You know what? I'm just going to tackle them one by one and then finally, eventually they're all going to love me." As long as you're making the right steps and you're moving it in the right direction towards it, I think it'll be fine.

Anita Brick:
I like that a lot. One of the things that is really important that you've said is don't call people out in a group. It will just make things really not so good, but one-on-one we can get beyond any preconceived notions that we may have. There's another Boothie that talks about this. He said, "I get very stubborn when someone won't listen to me and my perspective, yet sadly I do the same thing. What advice would you have to help me more effectively listen, especially if it is another person who has a different point of view and lower my judgment even when I may not like what they have to say?"

Vicki Oliver:
Yeah, I think that's a really excellent question. There are loud voices. In every meeting, there's some people who are louder, who speak more often, who interrupt people talk over them more and more. There are other people who step back and do the listening and write the notes, are seemingly more polite or whatever. It's tough if you have a strong personality. I have a strong personality also, so I really identify with this question. I have opinions. I feel I'm smart and I have a strong personality. For those of us who have a strong personality, we have to step back. We have to sometimes say, "I can't always be the person speaking in the room. I'm not necessarily the most intelligent person in the room."

We have to be more humble and sort of willing to be quiet and to listen. There's always ways to get your thoughts through. If you're in a meeting and nobody's listening to you and somebody's speaking over you or they're interrupting, later, you can commit your thoughts to an email and send it to your boss. Another thing that I really believe in is try to be the person who's taking the notes because then if you can't get your word in edgewise, at least you can put it in the notes.

Anita Brick:
Good point.

Vicki Oliver:
Try to be that person. A lot of people, I'm the only person I've ever met who really actually likes taking minutes on meetings. It's like a good role because you can always put your own thoughts in that way, whereas maybe if somebody else is being the scribe, maybe you can't get your thoughts in so easily, but you can email your boss. You can have private meetings with your boss. There are other ways besides the big meeting. Now, one of the problems with the meeting is that a lot of times there's very important people in the meeting and maybe you don't have the face time with those people ordinarily. But there are still ways to figure it out later like, "Oh, I didn't have a chance to even say what I want to say." Ask the person who called the meeting if you can be the first person to speak in the next meeting.

Anita Brick:
Yep. That's a really good idea. I think taking notes is good, except these days people will use even the AI companion in Zoom or Teams or whatever to do the summary, so I like your idea of post sending an email, having a conversation. I really like the idea of asking to be first on the agenda. That is a really smart idea. If your manager says, "No, but you could be second," you still know you're going to have time. I like that a lot, Vicki, but that's really good.

Vicki Oliver:
The other thing is if you possibly can try to be the person who sets the agenda, make sense-

Anita Brick:
Good idea, too. Yeah.

Vicki Oliver:
Try to make suggestions. If you're not the person, try to make suggestions about the agenda so that you can get in there and talk.

Anita Brick:
Okay, good. Here is an alum and she said, "Hi Vicki. I want to build more positive connections, which I know is grounded in trust and respect. What do you advise others to do to build trust and show that you are open to understanding the other person's point of view?"

Vicki Oliver:
In terms of building trust, I feel like one, not to be a credit cog would be my first point. Don't try to build your own credit, try to help other people and recognize them for their credit. Another thing is not to gossip. It's so tempting to gossip about people, especially if you don't like them. I think if you say to yourself, "I will not be a gossip," that can help a lot build trust. If you just have the reputation that you don't gossip, period, which means when people come to you and they want to gossip, just saying, "I'd love to stay in chat but I really actually have to get back to my work," or something like that where you just always casually toss it off so that you are not in the throes of the gossip. I think that helps build trust and they say, "Oh, she's sincere and I can trust her. She's not going to gossip."

It doesn't mean if two people are gossiping and you overhear them, it doesn't mean going in and saying, "Don't gossip." It just means you don't be a gossip yourself. Don't get into the weeds of the gossip. As a general rule, if you can look for compromise with people, let's say you don't agree with them. Back to the other question, you don't agree with something someone said. You have a completely diametrically opposite point of view, but is there some sort of a midpoint? Can you compromise? Or if you can't, can you say, "Okay, okay, for this time we're going to do it your way this time. Next time I'd love to experiment and try it this way.", Try to find places where you can give and compromise. You're going to be better off and people will like working with you more, too.

Anita Brick:
I agree. You mentioned it, taking small actions. I think it's also running experiments when you are able to do things that are low for other people and for yourself, people are more inclined to maybe try it out a little bit. If it doesn't work, not a lot lost. If it works, now you have a foundation. I like your approach.

Vicki Oliver:
The other thing is to the extent that you can gamify projects, I would try to do that. Let's say there are two different ways to do something. Maybe you have a bet, a minor bet with somebody. Just make it more fun and I think people will like you more and work with you better.

Anita Brick:
What have you seen people, on that note, do to gamify it or make it more fun?

Vicki Oliver:
You can say, "Well, okay, you know what? I'm going to take these three people. This is like the red team and you guys are the blue team," do whatever team color you want or whatever. Make it a little friendly competition like, "Oh, let's see which approach will get more business by the end of the business year." Just laugh more and make it more fun. You'll do better and people will like working with you more, too.

Anita Brick:
I like that. Vicki, do you have time for one more question?

Vicki Oliver:
Yeah, hit me.

Anita Brick:
Okay. You've given us a lot to think about. I like the fact that you are not adding to the divisiveness. You are creating really easy low risk ways for people to build bridges. What are three things that you would advise someone to do who maybe is a little stuck, wants to build bridges, there don't seem to be any entry points. What are three things that you would advise them to do?

Vicki Oliver:
Best way to build a bridge is probably to try to find a mentor in your company that will help you do it. You don't want to saddle somebody and say, "Oh, will you be my mentor please?" Because a lot of people may not know what that means or may not have the time or whatever. Think if you can find somebody there where you build a bridge to one person and maybe that person can help you build a bridge to somebody else. That is very, very, very important to do. To me, the definition of a mentor is somebody who cares about you and your career. It's not necessarily your boss or the most important person on the team. It's somebody who cares about you, who maybe has been there longer than you, who can show you things and help you make bridges to people who you might not ordinarily get a chance to get to know, somebody that they've built bridges to.

They can help you. If you can't find the person inside the company, I also believe you can do pretty well finding people outside the company who can help you. You can meet people outside your company, build a brain trust with people outside your company who are in the same field as you. You don't want to ever give confidential information, but just as a general thing, "Oh, I had this situation. I don't think my particular supervisor loves me. You ever encountered that a problem? What would you do?" If you build bridges outside your company to people who care about you, who will mentor you, I think that's almost as good as having somebody in the company who will do it. That's the number one thing I would recommend. The person could be older than you. They could be significantly younger than you. I don't think age matters. Only thing that matters is that they care about you and your success, that they're going to give you great advice and not terrible advice, that they're not in competition with you, and they want to see you succeed.

Anita Brick:
What would be number two?

Vicki Oliver:
Number two, I would say go in with an open mind. There's something called beginner's mind where you try to stay as a beginner, no matter how advanced you are. Look at every opportunity as a beginner and that you're going to learn, continually learn. The third thing I would say is get great at tech and help others in your company be great at tech so that you're all continually learning, and learning, and learning, and learning. Embrace learning. I think this is the fourth one. Try to learn all the time and then finally, I'm just going to say fifth thing, just try to be nice. It sounds so simple, but just try to be nice. Don't gossip, don't be mean. Give people the benefit of the doubt. Stay flexible.

Anita Brick:
I love it. Practical and very positive. I love that, Vicki. Thank you so much. I know you are a very busy person and I appreciate that you made time for us today and we're thrilled to have you. You gave us a lot to think about and some very practical encouraging things to do. Thank you very much, and I just really appreciate that you made time for us.

Vicki Oliver:
Thank you so much for having me. I really loved having the time to talk to you. I really appreciate it.

Anita Brick:
Great. Thank you and thank you all for listening. This is Anita Brick with CareerCast at Chicago Booth. Keep advancing.