Develop Relationships That Last

Anita Brick: Hi, this is Anita Brick and welcome to CareerCast at Chicago Booth. To help you advance in your career. Today, I am very, very excited to have Doctor Cindy McGovern here. She is the CEO of Orange Leaf Consulting and author of Every Job is a Sales Job: How do you use the art of selling to win at work? That's perfect Cindy, because we're going to talk about how to create relationships that last.

In Cindy's work, she quickly figures out what an organization or individual needs to be more successful and, using her knowledge of many industries, she helps leaders implement these new behaviors. This has resulted in hundreds of companies and individuals around the world creating dynamic and sustainable revenue growth. She holds a doctorate degree of Organizational Communication and a master's degree in Marketing.

Cindy, thank you so much. I know you're a very busy person, so thank you for making some time for us today.

Cindy McGovern: It is absolutely my pleasure to be on this call. Thank you so much for having me!

Anita Brick: First question really is very consistent with how a lot of people at Booth think and focuses on planning. A student asked in the book, “Planning is one step in your process. A question to you: how does one plan to build an enduring relationship?”

Cindy McGovern: Great question. I am a big time planner. Always have been. One of the challenges that we have is that when you're planning to build an enduring relationship you have to realize what the other side is going to get from this too. That's the key to lasting relationships. And really being able to build a strong network is being able to provide value on both sides and I think a lot of times we think, oh, well, I need to meet that person and they're really well connected. That's great for you, but what are they going to get out of this?

Being inquisitive enough and curious enough in the beginning of that relationship to figure out how you can continue to provide value, and sometimes the value you provide is simply being grateful. I know a lot of students will ask this question. They'll say, gosh, you know, I don't have anything to give back yet, or I don't know people to help their company or help them. That's okay. Sometimes what you give back is the opportunity for them to help another person, and you show them gratitude.

Anita Brick: A really good point, and I think it is absolutely a question that people have. The other falls into this bucket of, okay, I'm good at the initial conversation, but it doesn't go anywhere. Let's start with another student who said, “How do you move from networking with others that is transactional to something where the other person will be willing to leverage social capital on my behalf?”

Cindy McGovern: Great question as well. Part of the challenge, when you're moving it from transactional to really creating a relationship is are they going to see some kind of value in this, or are they feeling like you're just trying to get a hold of their network and you just want them to spend their social capital on you?

In the beginning, it's showing that curiosity and not being afraid to give a little, whether it is showing that gratitude upfront, whether it is offering some ideas that you've had, or showing them how they can benefit from introducing you to their network. I think that's where in particular a lot of students, as they're starting out, struggle because you feel like, you know, I've got to network, I've got to get out there, I've got to get the right job. I've got to get in the right position, get on the right team. All of these things are true. So you're trying to network with the right folks.

What my caution for you is these folks have to be willing and trust you to open their, you know, old school Rolodex to you. And I think what ends up happening is we are so singularly focused on what we're after, we're not necessarily paying attention to what they need and that what they're looking for from you in the very beginning is the signals and signs that you're. number one, going to be a good representative of them.

They're introducing you to their inner network. You have to show them you're going to be a good steward for them, and you're going to represent them well. Until they see those signs, I think that's why it stays transactional. It starts to move into the relationship piece when that trust is built. And in my book, I actually talk about establishing trust as part of that process. You really have to show them you're in it for them as much as you're in it for yourself.

Anita Brick: Okay. And I think that's great. How do you build trust? It seems a little squishy to me. Let's put it in the context of another question from a student, which is, “I find myself in a tough situation and need a supporter in a company, today. How do I build trust quickly?”

Cindy McGovern: Building trust is one of the most often skipped steps in business period. Whether you're selling, whether you're networking, whether you're literally just creating a relationship, I think people skip this part and they skip it because they mistake rapport for trust. So let me explain the difference. In my opinion, rapport is where we're having some nice banter. We can have some commonalities. You looked at the pictures on my desk and you saw that I love my dog, or we're at a party and we've discussed that we're both from the same hometown. That's rapport.

Trust is completely different. It moves you into a completely different category. Because I start opening up, I start telling you maybe even challenges that I've had in business or challenges in my network. There is a huge leap that happens when you go from rapport to trust. And even sales people confuse these things, by the way, and salespeople are supposed to build trust as a career.

I can like you and still not trust you. I can still go have coffee with you and still not trust you. So the key is how do you leap over from rapport to trust? And that's when you start being more authentic. You're being vigilant about where you can help the other person, and you're actually being authentically curious. Those are the three from me at least. And I think where a lot of folks fall down is they're being curious as to how that person can help them versus listening on how you can help the other person. It's like you're listening for the stuff that's in it for you. That's not building trust. You're just sort of hunting.

You've got to listen for the things that maybe you can offer to that other human being, or show them that you're listening. Show active listening, mirror their body language, things like that. But it really is crucial that you're being authentically curious. And I think the best way to do this, and to answer the students question of how do you build trust quickly, you have to show them that you're being authentic and that you're being very genuine with them because if they feel like you're after them just for their support, they've already got their guard up.

Think about it. If you're the person that somebody wants something from you, you feel it. You start bracing for it. When they walk in the room, you're like “Oh, here comes so and so. They just want my attention for something.” You've got to really put yourself in that other person's shoes of what's going to be the benefit to them in this and show them that this isn't a one and done. And especially for the student that asks the question about how do you build support with somebody who you need to quickly trust you, they have to see this as a longer term relationship. If they think you're after their support then boom, you're out of there. They're going to have their guard up. You cannot establish trust with somebody that has their guard up.

Anita Brick: Okay. So how do you demonstrate that you're in there for the long term when you're just meeting?

Cindy McGovern: So I think that's where you start asking the different kinds of questions. Have the conversation about where they're at and what their vision is and things that they like. Let them talk. You'll get to it. But I think a lot of folks, when they're so singularly focused on “I need to build trust with this person so that they can write me a letter of recommendation”, or “they can get me an interview,”

you're missing the point. It's not about that singular piece. It should be about something longer. We have to remember that nobody does it alone in this life, like none of us.

And Anita, you and I can have conversations about how people have helped us in our careers too, right? The person that makes the introduction to the company that gets you that job and you keep in touch with them ten years from now. That’s somebody in your network that still wants to help you, still wants to be an advocate for you. We have to remember it should never be one and done in terms of networking or building relationships. It's always about following up with them. Saying, “hey, oh my gosh, guess what just happened?” five years later. “But remember that introduction you made for me? Well, it turned into this and it turned into this. And now where I am today is amazing because of what you did.”

That's the key. But they've got to feel that this relationship is going to be like that, not just that you're going to make it in, they're going to make an intro for you and then you're out of there.

Anita Brick: Got it. In this situation where you are building trust, but especially if there is a time pressure to do that, what would be an example of a question you could ask that can move from rapport building to building trust?

Cindy McGovern: So I think it depends on the scenario. If you know this person already or if you have some kind of a rapport with them, that allows you for a little bit of a faster timeline to be able to ask some more authentic, probing, questions. But one of the questions that I would ask is find out what their goals are.

What are they trying to accomplish? “We haven't had a chance to talk to you, tell me a little bit about some of the projects you're working on right now.” Get them talking and then look for opportunities where maybe you can offer to help or offer an introduction. Offer connection before you ask for their help. They have to see something that's in it for them before you ask for what you need.

Anita Brick: Okay, so let's say that you had that first conversation, and there are two people who actually ask this, “I'm really good at the first conversation. It never goes to a second. What advice have you given people in the past when they are like me, they're good at the first convo, they never make it to the second, which is really where I want to be.”

Cindy McGovern: I would have those folks that ask that question ask themselves this question: what did the other person get out of your initial conversation? And if you can't pinpoint that they got something really great, even if it was just ten minutes of wonderful conversation, what did you learn about the other person in that initial conversation? You can't answer that. That conversation was all about you. And I think that's the biggest mistake. You have a good conversation, you think it's a good conversation because you're probably telling them all about your program and what you're trying to work on. They don't care about that. You have to make them care about that. Over time, you've got to think about what they're getting from this interaction.

And this is one of the challenges that I find with most folks is small talk is definitely an art form. Truly mastering that art of small talk so that you're building that trust and building that rapport with those folks so that they will want to continue to help you. And I'll give you a very quick story. There's a girl that worked for me years ago. She was at an event with a bunch of real estate agents and there was one particular realtor that she was concentrating on talking with. So she went up and she met her and she just started asking her about her goals and just said, “You know, tell me a little bit about your goals. What are you working on now? You working with buyers or sellers?” and just let this woman chat.

Well, this woman just started talking her ear off for about 20 minutes. The girl that worked for me literally said probably ten words. And then another colleague of the realtors came into the room, grabbed my colleague, pulled her away and was like, “Oh my gosh, you got to talk to this girl. She's fascinating.” The perception was that they had had this great conversation, but she literally just let this woman talk about herself. If you feel like the conversation was good, that may be true for you. What did they get from it?

Anita Brick: That’s a really good point. There's an alum. This alum feels like he is giving a lot, but it ends there. Let's see if we can help him with this.

“Hi Cindy, I admit that I feel stuck in this whole relationship building process. What would you advise someone like me when you offer to help others, you actually do help others, and nothing comes back to me even when I ask.”

Cindy McGovern: So that's a huge question. And I would break it down a couple different ways if that's okay.

Anita Brick: Sure.

Cindy McGovern: I think it's a great question, and the reason I think it's a great question is because you are aware of the fact that you're already offering help to others, you're aware of the fact that you're giving. So that's the first thing,you're doing the things I've already mentioned that are important, like make sure the other person gets something from this.

My question for the alum is are you actually giving the help they're asking for or are you offering help because it makes you feel good? And I know that sounds silly, but there are two very different things there. It's almost as if I need help carrying a box down the hallway. Okay, that's one thing. Do I need help with a project that's really big? That's what I actually need your help with. Are you offering the help that's good for you, or are you offering the help that's good for them?

That's the first thing I would check in on, assuming, for the purposes of our conversation today, that you're offering the help that they really need. And you said “even though you asked for help,” that’s the bigger piece of this. What is your personal brand and how are you known within your organization? Are you known as the helpaholic? Are you known as the guy or gal that is always just going to give, give, give, give, give. And then when you ask, your ask might be kind of a wimpy ask. Really asking would be, “Anita, I've got this project on Thursday and I'm absolutely slammed. Could you spare 15 minutes to come and help me with it?”

That's a real ask. And I think a lot of times for people who are natural helpers and like to help others, we actually struggle with the ask. And I kind of fall into this category by the way, I'm very much the helper. So we couch the ask as a “well, if you're available” or you know, “if you have time,” or “if it's not too much of a bother.”

The second piece of my answer is make sure. First of all, make sure you're offering the help that they actually need. And then the second thing is make sure the ask is clear. Are you clear on what you want them to do and is it a yes or no question? Because that's the other thing, sometimes you leave a lingering ask out there like, “hey, if anybody's available Saturday I would love some help.” That's not an ask. So make sure you're being clear on what you want.

And then the third piece of this is a big, big conversation. The third piece of this is know your personal brand. Have you built a reputation around being the person that cannot accept help? And this is hard for some people to hear because you feel like, well, I'm such a helper, but then nobody wants to help me even when I ask for it? Have you built a reputation that you actually don't want help, even if you think you're asking for it? Are you giving off that vibe that well, we're going to offer to help, but then you're going to do it your way anyways, or you're going to offer to help, and then you're going to end up telling everybody, “oh, no, it's okay. I got it on my own.”

So watch the way that you're actually teaching others to treat you. That goes very much to the core of that relationship that you have with those colleagues. And it seemed to me when you asked this question, since this is an alum, that this is probably an ongoing thing with this person.  Whether it's personal or professional, if you're feeling stuck in this process, I would really caution you to look at how you're known.

That might be an interesting question to ask a close friend or a close colleague. Who am I known as around here? And if they're like, “oh, you're the helper, you never want any help.” That's the reputation you’re probably gonna have to shift.

Anita Brick: Good point. How would your answer change, or would it change if those asked are not within an organization but external to an organization?

Cindy McGovern: So the ask is with either former colleagues or new people that this person needs. And it's not for that internal support, but it's for external support. It's actually the same answer that it needs to be a specific ask, and maybe even more specific if it's external, because these are people you're not seeing every day, you're not networking with on maybe even a regular basis.

So I think it needs to be even more clear what you're asking them to do. And one more piece on this, too, is if you're really feeling stuck and you're really feeling like you are just offering all the time, your cup is empty because you're giving to everyone else, and no one's ever giving back. I might offer for you to look at if you are giving to the right people? Maybe don't give as much because there are absolute takers in this world. If you're not getting anything in return other than maybe feeling good for helping another person, is this the best use of your time? Is this the highest and best use of your networking capabilities? Probably not. So I would really look at that. And whether that's internal or external, I think it absolutely applies. Make sure that the folks that you're helping are worthy of that.

Anita Brick: Very good point. Especially challenging if a person tends to say yes even when he or she wants to say no. So here's a related question, also from an alum. “I see that when I feel like I'm asking for too much, the other person reflects my own discomfort. How do I change that?”

Cindy McGovern: The quick answer is to stop asking for too much. But the truth of the matter is, if you see them being uncomfortable and they're reflecting your own discomfort, you are asking for too much. So my question for you is why are you asking for so much? Have you given back? Have you given a pause in the relationship to show them that this is truly a give and take? My guess is no. If that's the case, that's why they're feeling so uncomfortable. It's like, gosh, this person is just a taker. You've stepped over that line to being a taker. You want to look at that relationship or look at those relationships and realize it should not always be about you.

I call that narcissistic networking. I have a term for it. You think you're doing a good job, you know, utilizing your network and you think you're doing a good job of making sure people know who you are and know what you're looking for, and you feel like you're being grateful to them all. That's wonderful. But what have you done to get back? What have they won in terms of this?

And I'll give you another quick story.

There was a company that targets a lot of the same companies that I do, and I realized they were basically farming my LinkedIn. Looking at who I knew on LinkedIn and asking for introductions all the time. I am happy to help. If I know someone, and I think that the other person can benefit, I am more than happy to help, but it was very one sided and the one time I did ask for an intro, I got radio silence. Guess what happened? I quit introducing them into my network.

Anita Brick: Right.

Cindy McGovern: It was something as simple as that, but it was because they were asking for so much and giving literally zero in return. For the person that asked this, they said the other person reflects, I believe you said my own discomfort. Why are you uncomfortable? Examine that too. Where is that discomfort coming from? Is it coming from the fact that you feel like you don't deserve to ask for this, or you feel like it's not the right time to ask for this? Pay attention. I feel like our bodies give us very nice, clear signals. So if you've got those red flags, pay attention to those.

Try to develop an understanding of why you're feeling that and then possibly change the approach from it.

Anita Brick: Okay, so that leads into a variation of this question, which I think will take us a little bit deeper. Another alum said, “You talk about teaching people how to treat you, I think I'm teaching others the wrong things. How do I shift to have more positive outcomes?”

Cindy McGovern: People do not realize that they are selling themselves 24/7. The way you carry yourself in the office, the way that you carry yourself with your friends, the way that you even sit on the train. You are selling 24/7 whether you recognize it or not. I think when we start looking at our true interactions with people, like we're teaching them how to treat us, you have to be very clear on what your personal boundaries are and who you want to be known as.

Do you want to be known as a doormat? Of course not. But how did you get to that point? What happened that you became okay with being that. Having very clear, healthy boundaries is really, really important when you're teaching people how to treat you. And then the second thing too is you have to be very intentional about who you want to be known as. Having a personal brand, in my opinion, should be on purpose, but a lot of people have one, whether they have really crafted it or not.

I would encourage you to look at as, “okay, I want to shift this to have more positive outcomes and be treated differently by my friends, my colleagues, my family,” whatever. “What do I need to do to show them this is what I'm after?” Having a clear plan of what that looks like, and then also creating those boundaries when it's not okay for you. And that’s one of the most uncomfortable parts when someone treats you poorly. Speaking up. Looking at how you're reinforcing that reputation that you have now isn't one of the things you got to look at first. But it's really hard to shift this, especially if you've been known as this for a long time. So I would encourage you to get really, really clear on who you want to be known as and then start looking for people to support that vision.

Anita Brick: I think that's really very, very good advice. Do you have time for one more question?

Cindy McGovern: I do!

Anita Brick: Okay, good. This has been really good because this is a very tricky, non-linear, kind of ambiguous, ephemeral process, the whole process of building relationships because there's so many different factors and many of them we have very little control over. So when you think about this, what are the top three things that you would advise someone who wants to develop and sustain successful relationships?

Anita Brick: The first thing is know who you are. And I know that sounds like a trite thing, but what I mean is know who you are in terms of the gifts that you have to offer the world. Know who you are in terms of the challenges that you have. Know who you are in terms of what you can do for others. That's the first thing. Know your value. Know you know yourself.

The second thing is be vigilant for opportunities to help others first. And I know that sounds counterintuitive. I need to find somebody that can help me. You will, but be vigilant about finding ways to help other people. That's going to help your personal brand. Because if people feel like you are wanting to give, not just take, that feels good to want to help somebody like that. And we've all heard people say things like, gosh, it couldn't have happened to a nicer gal or couldn't happen to a nicer guy, or you want somebody like that to succeed. That's you building your personal brand, and that's you creating and crafting that image that you have in the world. And I firmly believe that if you give, people will want to give back to you the second thing.

And then the third thing is you have to ask. And this just happened to me. But it was funny because an old coaching client of mine emailed me and said, “oh, I read the book, I really like it, thank you so much.” And I wrote back and I said, “thank you. That means so much to me. If you get a minute, would you be willing to post a review online?” And I gave her three different sites and I actually put the links in there. So it was easy for her. And she wrote back and she goes, I just read your book and it talks about asking and I didn't even think to do this until you asked.

What's funny about it is people assume that you and I had a really nice conversation. So of course you'll go and tell people nice things or whatever. No, it's not enough. You have to be clear on what you want the other person to do. They have to walk away knowing, make it easy for them to help you. That's the other challenge that I see a lot of times with students in particular. When you're starting out, you're feeling like, oh, well, if I ask, I'm being pushy or something. No, if you're asking for somebody in my network, you need to tell me what I need to tell them about you to make that an introduction. Make it as easy as possible. Make your ask easy. Like I did with Skyler. I literally sent her the link. That's one of the most commonly skipped steps in doing a great job of networking. You have a nice conversation, and then you just leave it flat. Make sure you are asking.

Anita Brick: Well, and that's a very good point. You didn't ask immediately because she reached out first. I think it would have been different if you, like, started looking at all the people you've met in the last so many years and one by one reached out to them and went directly to say, hey, can you write a review for my book? I think it would have been different.

And it goes back to what you've been saying all along. You build rapport and if you already have trust, clearly you did, the person felt comfortable, they came to you, you could make that ask. Have you built enough trust to make the ask that you're actually requesting at this particular time?

Cindy McGovern: Absolutely. Making that ask as easy as possible for the other person. Tell me what you want me to do. Make it easy for me to help you, and then I'm more likely to help you.

Anita Brick: Absolutely. If you put the effort in, you make it easy. It's another demonstration that you value the relationship rather than what they're going to do for you in that moment.

Cindy McGovern: It's so true. And I know you feel strongly about this too. And this. Can I add a fourth and bonus?

Anita Brick: Oh my gosh, I was just going to ask if you wanted to add something.

Cindy McGovern: Great minds. There we go. It's following up and showing them that you're grateful for that. I think that follow up piece is also where a lot of people fall down, and that's really how you build a lasting relationship. You have to keep it alive.

Anita Brick: Absolutely.

Cindy McGovern: If you're not keeping in touch with these people, that's why it's not lasting. Make sure they know you're very appreciative and follow up with them and show them what they've done to help you along the way.

Anita Brick: That's brilliant advice. You have to carve out time to do it because life can take over, and there's usually not time to do that unless you make the time. And thank you again for making the time for us today. Very solid, very gracious approach to relationship building. And I really appreciate that you made it time for us today.

Cindy McGovern: It is absolutely my honor and pleasure. I am happy to be here and thank you for having me.

Anita Brick: Of course. I'm so glad it worked out. By the way, Cindy has a lot of really good stuff on her site. Cindy's site is really easy. It's Doctor cindy.com so it's Dr. cindy.com. Thanks again Cindy.

Cindy McGovern: Thank you so much Anita.

Anita Brick: It's been a pleasure and thank you all for listening. This is Anita Brick with CareerCast at Chicago Booth. Keep advancing.