Connecting with Influence

Anita Brick: Hi, this is Anita Brick and welcome to CareerCast at Chicago Booth. To help you advance in your career. Today we're delighted to be speaking with Michael Gelb. He is the author of The Art of Connection. Fabulous book, Michael. I'm so excited to be having the conversation. He has pioneered the fields of creative thinking, accelerated learning, and innovative leadership.

He leads seminars for organizations such as DuPont, Microsoft, and Nike. He's the author of a bunch of different books, including Brainpower and How to Think Like Leonardo da Vinci. His website is MichaelGelb.com. Michael, I'm so glad that you were able to make the time for us to have this conversation this morning.

Michael J. Gelb: My pleasure. Thank you.

Anita Brick: The book, The Art of connection. If you are going to define connection really briefly, the real, authentic, sustainable kind. How would you define that?

Michael J. Gelb: You know it when you've got it. It's rapport being simpatico, a feeling that we're all familiar with, where you're in sync alignment. That would be my simple definition.

Anita Brick: That's a good, simple definition. So there were a lot of questions from students and alumni. Let's start off with one that came from a weekend student. And he said, when I look for things that make me distinctive, I struggle. Well, I know I'm capable. So are many people. How do I bring out my best and how do I bring that to the forefront?

Michael J. Gelb: Wow, what a wonderful question. It helps first to understand the paradox that is at the heart of the art of connection. You are unique. So is everybody else. One thing that we all have in common is our desire to be seen and appreciated for our uniqueness. Recognize what you have in common with everyone else. We all have the same fundamental needs.

So it's wonderfully liberating to know that we're really all connected through these fundamental needs. Then contemplate each day, well, what are my gifts and what do I love to do the most? How can I leverage what I love to do the most, and my way of doing it in a way that benefits others in a sustainable way?

Anita Brick: How do you fight the doubt? I remember once someone came into my office and said that he had absolutely no distinctive skills and abilities and what he did, absolutely everyone could do all this self-doubt. Now, what he told me he did is something that is highly valued in many, many different industries and in many, many different companies.

But his doubt eclipsed his ability to see that. So how do you fight that doubt that says, no, Michael, you're really the same as everyone else, or there are people who are better. How do you allow sensitiveness to not be eclipsed by doubt?

Michael J. Gelb: Don't try to get rid of the doubt or fight it directly, because you only make it stronger for people who are really struggling with okay, well, what is unique about me? I would actually counsel them to go to the study of the creative process, learn how to make mind maps, do a mind map of your life, of your vision, of your talents, of your doubts, of the things that you want to learn and experience.

Put that on your wall. It's amazing how the uniqueness comes out. Once you've discovered that, then if you want to manifest what's unique about you in a positive way, if you want to turn it into a project or a career or an entrepreneurial venture, you're going to have to build relationships and work effectively with other people.

Anita Brick: Got it. Since we're on the Dow theme a little bit, there was another question actually, from another weekend student, and she said, I'm in a situation at work where my manager seems to expect less of me than my peers. As a result, I am missing out on important developmental opportunities. While I can't leave my job, I am willing to do something. What advice would you have?

Michael J. Gelb: Great! So first of all, check your own level of self expectation because that's the critical one. We teach people how to treat us. I suggest once you align with your own sense of self expectation and expecting great things from yourself, then figure out how to communicate with that boss about how you want to be treated without complaining, without whining, without being passive aggressive. Figure out how to get this message through to your boss about how you want to be treated, and the expectations that you expect for yourself, and that you would like your boss to share.

Anita Brick: So it sounds like you have to be clear with yourself. Write them down, think about them, of how you want to be treated, and be honest with yourself. If you actually believe them.

Michael J. Gelb: Yeah, yeah, because you can't expect the boss or anybody else to believe in you in that way if you don't work it out yourself. I mean, sometimes you get blessed. I look at people who have managed to be successful, in many cases against the odds. What they've always told me is that there was one person who they felt believed in them, who saw their potential.

When one person believes in you, even though everybody else is telling you you can't do it, you're not good enough that one person can change someone's life. What if you don't have that one person in your life right now? Then you need to be that person for yourself and start being that person for other people. How wonderful is that?

If people's lives are touched by your inspiration, by your ability to encourage that. And courage comes from the root, courage, core that heart and heart is what we need. When we feel doubt, you know we need the courage to stand up for ourselves and let people know how we expect to be treated.

Anita Brick: You're right. So there are two things that are sort of related to this. One was from an evening student. Not to sound naive, but how is humility a competitive advantage?

Michael J. Gelb: That's great. I want you to sound naive, so that's okay, because naivety is a kind of cousin of humility. You can read the research in the book on how humility really does turn out to be a competitive advantage. Let's talk about it in human terms. If you're humble, it means you're going to be curious. If you're curious, it means you're going to ask follow up questions.

You're not going to be arrogant. The opposite of humble is arrogance. If you're arrogant, if you assume you know it all, chances are you're going to miss some important information. In the world today, people don't really like being around arrogant people, right? They don't want to work for you. They don't want you on their team. More and more, working environments become more collaborative, more diverse, less hierarchical, more team oriented.

We're looking for people who can bring out the best in one another. That's who you want on your team. People I know who hold positions of power and authority, and organizations are looking for people to collaborate with, and people want to work with them because they're humble enough to really be curious about what each person brings to the conversation.

Humility creates curiosity. Curiosity yields continuous learning. Continuous learning is what we need because, look, the world's so complex, one person isn't going to know it all or have all the answers. That's why this whole collaborative, diverse approach has emerged. It's because it's the only hope you have to compete in the complexity and pace of change that we're all dealing with.

Anita Brick: So how does and this is a related question. I think it's another piece of it. And a lot to ask the question, Michael, you talk about the power of vulnerability. This doesn't seem to be valued in private equity. How can I increase the perceived benefits of vulnerability if it's not valued at my firm?

Michael J. Gelb: Yeah, that's a great question. And unfortunately that tends to be true. There's a transactional orientation at every level of the culture of a lot of these organizations. This is where this stuff is really important. So while you're waiting to change a culture that may not be really aligned with the kinds of human values that we're talking about, it's important nonetheless to look within your own circle of influence.

In other words, how do you treat people? How do you respond to people? Do you connect to people? Do you take the time to put down your device, look people in the eyes and see who you're with? Or do you allow the fact that you're being treated in a transactional way to just be passed on by you to treating others in a transactional way?

So you may not be able to change the whole context of the firm you work in, but you do have more influence than you think, just in terms of your everyday interactions with other people. And the beauty of this is not only do you and rich other people's day by genuinely connecting with them, but this is where the research is most interesting.

I think you change the quality of your own life. This is the research of Jane Dutton. Monica Wallin, Christine Porus and others they talk about. HQ sees high quality connections, even momentary alignments with other human beings. Ted is not just transactional. Then it can just be in a moment where you shift out of transactional mode and into genuine interpersonal mode. And it turns out that people who have a lot of HQ sees in the course of their day have what the researchers call a higher perceived sense of well-being. Well, that's research talk for the happier, right?

Anita Brick: It's true. And we do have influence. There is another alum who's not sure about how to leverage that, she said. If you are a new employee in a highly political environment where data and facts may not matter as much. What's the best way to influence the decision makers if the numbers don't seem to matter?

Michael J. Gelb: Yeah. Wow. That's why your fealty to truth and clarity becomes ever more important.

Anita Brick: Not to interrupt, but you sound like in this organization you can pull the data, but there's another piece. Does it mean that you weave data into narrative? Is there something else? How do you know if someone says, yeah, the numbers and data are fine, but that's not really what we focus on. Of course, you can educate them to move in that direction, but what can you do in the meantime? If you need to influence the decision makers in what sounds like a highly politicized environment, how do you do that when the data doesn't seem to matter quite as much?

Michael J. Gelb: You said weave it into the narrative. Here's a shocking reality: influence skills and rational thinking skills don't necessarily go hand in hand. This doesn't mean that we should throw out facts. It's more important than ever to back up what you say, to be truthful and honest and oriented towards replicability and integrity and all these classic traditional values at the same time deal with the reality that where you are, people may not be making their decisions based on data alone, and people do what they do because they feel like doing it, because they feel somehow it is in their interest.

So get more skilled at looking at the interests and the needs driving the interests of the various constituencies in any organization with which you work. And by the way, this is true even in organizations that have a fealty to data and the truth so needs to operate in these different worlds. It helps to understand the needs that drive these behaviors, to look at people in terms of what needs they're trying to meet by their behaviors, and then to figure out are there ways that can meet the needs of different constituencies that we haven't thought of yet?

That's where creative thinking goes out of the realm of just GM writing a poem or dreaming and fantasizing. No, I'm working on real innovation in a challenging organizational situation. You don't do it by holding positions or trying to impose your idea on everybody else. You do it by being more empathic, more understanding, less judgmental, more focused on figuring out, okay, what are the common interests here, that the people may have different ways of expressing their desire to fulfill their needs.

And it may look like our interests are quite different, but how can we think creatively? First of all, here's some of the data. What are the different needs people are trying to meet? What are the different strategies they have in mind for meeting those needs? And what haven't we thought of yet as a way that might be more effective in meeting the needs of the competing constituencies? So if we can free ourselves from our own tendency to judge people who are operating in a different modality than the one that we might prefer, we open up all sorts of possibilities for finding new solutions.

Anita Brick: Good point. There is an existing MBA student. I'm not sure who's judging whom. This is a very interesting question and this is going to be a student said when interviewing over the phone. And your accent happens to be different from the interviewer's accent, what can you do to connect and influence the interviewer that you are the right candidate for a role?

Michael J. Gelb: Don't collude with the notion that your accent in some way disconnects you from others. Sometimes it may be perceived that way. Other times, an accent is perceived as indirect. How do you account for the difference in that? Sometimes an accent binds us. Sometimes we feel alienated. You can't control it. For that. Avoid identifying yourself with the accent and how it may be perceived, and focus instead on the humanity behind their accent and yours and what's actually being shared. Don't get caught up in the external illusion.

Anita Brick: I agree, and I think it goes back to what you said about the companies, a highly politicized company. It's the same kind of thing. Are you focusing on the differences or are you focusing on the need, the problem, the solution that you can be if you're hired into that role? People want value.

Michael J. Gelb: I love the way you said that. Focus on bringing more value. It's a paradox. On the one hand, what the art of connection is all about is having more rapport, more appreciation of the soulfulness and the humanity of yourself and others in context of your everyday life. On the other hand, what's also true is that in the professional world, you are viewed primarily in terms of the amount of value that you could bring.

That's why we have you here. We might be interested in you personally. We might care about you, but that's not why you're here. We hired you only really because of the value that you can bring. And that's why it's a really good idea to think about what are the most effective ways to enhance the value that you can bring to any group of people.

The next level of the paradox is people who can connect with others in a genuine human way, and help others feel included and connected and inspired will have a tremendous competitive advantage as the world gets less soulful and more electronic. This art, the Art of connection, is one of the disciplines, along with various technical disciplines, that people can cultivate in the course of their career so that they can bring more value.

If you're technically competent at the same level as somebody else, but you have the ability to bring out the best in people. If you're perceived as an open, humble, responsive listener and someone else isn't, you're going to have a competitive advantage in your career.

Anita Brick: No question at all. It's interesting. There is a pain point I hear about, and my colleagues hear about this actually from another executive MBA student, he said. You talk about connecting being your greatest point of leverage. What advice would you have if a person feels stuck in connecting very well at getting those first informational, those first networking conversations? I'm having a really hard time having subsequent conversations. What remedial advice would you have for me?

Michael J. Gelb: If you have humility, which this person does have some frustrations about the ability to follow up and connect with people. That person going into each interaction with this open mind and with how can I improve this? That is going to be the key to improvement and growth and learning.

Anita Brick: Let's have for a second how can we be incredibly tactical and practical around this? This is something that many people struggle with. What is something that someone can do to increase the probability that an individual will have a second or third conversation with them?

Michael J. Gelb: I'm going to give you an actual answer.

Anita Brick: I appreciate that.

Michael J. Gelb: So I will give you some substantive, practical things this person can do differently. If this person's having a roadblock, if they're not getting the follow up. My guess is their style, their typology, their way of communicating is not aligning with or connecting with the style of the other person, for sure, of course. And part of my advice is to become fluent in these typologies.

Learn your Enneagram type. Learn how to figure out what other people's Enneagram is. It's not hard. I do it all the time when I'm interacting with potential clients, and then I'm delivering information to them in ways that I think are easier for their type to digest. When you give people information in the framework of their style of processing the information, rather than just in yours, because we're all programmed to do it in our way.

Sure, sure, automatically assume that if we do it well in our way, that other people will automatically get it and integrate it. We need to do it their way. This is a technical way to develop your empathy. It's a tremendous key to the art of connection, to building real relationships skills. And it's not that difficult if you're willing to recognize and study a little bit.

Okay, what are my natural proclivities? How do I like to receive information? What's my style of sharing it, and what are different styles? If you understand what the different modalities are and you understand, you know the person you're dealing with in a particular interaction likes to receive information in a way that's different than you do. We'll get out of your way, give it to them in the way they want it, and all of a sudden they're calling you back and bringing you in for the next meeting.

Anita Brick: How do you do that if you've never met them before? And there's a whole bunch of different ways of being if you don't know who they are and you don't know what their style is, how do you prepare yourself to know that if you don't know them.

Michael J. Gelb: Do some homework. Find out what is their professional training, what is their background? Before I meet with clients or potential clients or partners in a collaborative venture, I try to do my homework and figure out as much as I can about those people. So I'm tuned into that, and then I listen really carefully to what people ask for.

Sometimes I meet with people and they are way more transactional. They want the data, they want the information, they want the research side. So that's what I give them. Other times I meet with people and they are much more interested in talking about why. And we don't get around to talking about the business and the deal until much later on.

So you don't have to do this in a linear, analytical way. We have mirror neurons that are designed to do this for us, but we override them. If you have a genuine curiosity, I'm just getting more and more curious about people. They are just fascinating and they're really quirky and complex. This is an art. This is not. The book's not called the science of connection, even though you know the.

Anita Brick: Great.

Michael J. Gelb: Science in it. It's the art because this is a real time in the moment. Well, there's 12 people here. Where are they coming from? Who are they? How am I going to get through to them? I'm curious about that. What happened? I heard how can I listen more to what it is they're really asking me for? Okay, I think I got it.

Let me give it my best shot. Now I'm watching their facial expressions. I'm listening to their voice tonality. I'm watching their posture. And I'm monitoring as I speak. Is this getting through? Am I connecting with these people? Do I need to modify or adjust? And that's a continuous process. So you have to love that you get into loving that process.

I'd love to give you an algorithm. Just run this algorithm. There's a joke in the book from, you know, The Big Bang Theory where, you know, Sheldon, it's an episode called The Friendship Algorithm.

Anita Brick: Yeah, I remember that one.

Michael J. Gelb: I tried to write an algorithm to predict how to make friends with Kripke's so I can get access to the universe's computer. You know, it's a comedy, and it's hilarious that that doesn't actually work. We have more data and more information about relationships and what works and how to connect with people than ever before, but relationships don't seem to be getting better just because the science is out there.

Anita Brick: You're right about that. It goes along with something you emphasize a lot in the book. That's to observe without evaluating and to not take anything personally. Because if you come from empathy, it's easier to observe. It's easier not to take things personally because you're trying to connect rather than trying to be right.

Michael J. Gelb: And that includes self empathy. Good point. People are so judgmental to themselves. Oh, you know, I don't know anything about myself that is really unique or creative. So I'll give myself a hard time because of that. The level of judge mentality and critique, just evaluation that we constantly heap upon ourselves. You know, a lot of us take all the worst criticisms from parents or relatives or teachers or wherever we we had it foisted upon us, and then we suffer constantly, read it and torture ourselves with it. And then we wonder why we're having trouble making connections.

Anita Brick: Right? Right, right. That's so true. It's absolutely true.

Michael J. Gelb: Start with self empathy and learning to free yourself from constant self-evaluation. Be compassionate towards yourself. Then you just open up this whole other world of relationships. When you look at others, not just assuming that everything that they do or say that you don't like is aimed to get you, it really isn't about you, right? Even when it seems like it is.

People act the way they do, you know? It's how they're wired. So a lot of what you do is just how you're wired. Once you are aware of that and you don't get so caught up in the drama of it all, you just have so much more freedom to look at yourself with compassion, to look at other people with compassion, to look at yourself and look at other people with a sense of humor, and to find more creative solutions to seemingly intractable interpersonal problems.

Anita Brick: You're absolutely right. Do you have time for one more question?

Michael J. Gelb: Sure. This is so much fun. Yeah.

Anita Brick: Good, good. What we're talking about is, like you said, there isn't an algorithm. It's kind of a little squishy, ambiguous, and there's so many emotions involved. But that all said, if you were going to give advice to people who are listening, whether they're students who just started out this quarter, alumni who graduated years ago, what are three things that someone can begin doing today to develop and sustain real connections?

Michael J. Gelb: You know, there's seven things in the book. We've talked about a few of them. So to pick just three things, let's focus on three things that we haven't talked about yet. One would be to look at all your relationships in the context of energy exchange, and to seek an abundant, grateful balance of exchange of energy in all of your relationships.

And the great follow up there is the work of Professor Adam Grant at Wharton on Givers and Takers and Matters. So look at the give and take in your life energetically, with a focus towards having it be abundant and balanced, and the key to fixing it, if it is, is often learning how to say no in a positive way to things that deplete your energy and throw off that balance.

And it's also learning how to give and receive feedback. It's amazing how this seems like just such an essential skill functioning in the business world. Not to mention having a healthy, happy relationship at home. But most people just have not been trained how to do it and don't like to get it. Don't ask for it. Don't have great examples of people in their life who do it really well. So learn to give and receive feedback. You can stop me when I get to three. I've done it because I just keep going on.

Anita Brick: You know, keep going, keep going.

Michael J. Gelb: The other one is really simple but profound. Take away, give up, thinking of conflict as a contest. We make this category error, this huge confusion. Contests are wonderful. We keep score. There's a winner, a loser. That's what makes it interesting. The problem comes when we apply the model of a contest to the conflicts in our life. If we think, you know, if I'm going to win and my colleagues are going to lose, then we all lose because our welfare is woven together.

So a contest is a chance to win. Get more points. Yay! A conflict is a chance to be empathic. Figure out the needs in a given situation that need to be met, and figure out creative ways to meet those needs. And that's what leaders do. That's why the subtitle of Seven Relationship Building Skills Every Leader Needs Now is leading at every level.

Okay, we'll make one more too. And that is, remember that you're a leader, even if you don't yet have some position that is exalted, that you lead by example. Your ability to connect with people, to be human, to be soulful, to be empathic, to be humble, to be curious, to be engaged, to be alive, to recognize even when you don't feel it. Act as though your smallest actions made a difference. Act as though the little kindnesses you perform each day will make a difference to making a better world. And then you may just surprise yourself to find that you're living in want.

Anita Brick: What a great and powerful and profound way to complete our conversation. Michael, thank you so much. This is great.

Michael J. Gelb: Thank you.

Anita Brick: I truly believe that the way that you just shared what you shared, we each have something we can do. And connecting with a human being from a place of empathy changes everything and it can change everything for the better. Thank you. Keep doing this work. I know you have a lot of other interests, but keep doing it. This is so, so important.

Michael J. Gelb: Thank you.

Anita Brick: Thanks so much for making the time today.

Michael J. Gelb: My pleasure.

Anita Brick: And just as a reminder and it's very, very practical, I love what's in the book. It's called the Art of Connection. And you can also go to Michael's site which is MichaelGelb.com. Thanks again Michael. Thanks and thank you all for listening. This is Anita Brick with CareerCast at Chicago Booth. Keep advancing.