Ask Successfully

Anita Brick: Hi, this is Anita Brick and welcome to CareerCast at Chicago Booth. To help you advance in your career. To help you advance in your career. Today, we're more than delighted to be speaking with Dr. Wayne Baker. Dr. Baker is the Robert P. Thome  Professor of Business Administration and Professor of Management & Organizations at the University of Michigan’s Ross School of Business, Faculty Director of the Center for Positive Organizations.

He is the author of several books, but the one we're going to talk about today is a very practical and very, very accessible and I really loved it, All You Have to Do Is Ask. Wayne is the co-founder and board member ofGive and Take Inc., developers of the collaboration technology is based on principles in, All You Have to Do Is Ask.

Wayne, thank you so much for making the time. This is just really a treat for me and so glad that you wrote the book.

Wayne Baker: Pleasure to be connected again. It has been a while and let's not say how long it's been, because then we'll date ourselves. Very nice to have this opportunity to talk with you.

Anita Brick: Okay, well, we have a lot of interest. We'll do our best to get to as many of the questions that came in, just to give us a frame. There's asking and then I think there's asking successfully. What qualities would be present if someone is asking successfully?

Wayne Baker: Well, to ask successfully, you want to make sure that you're asking something that is thoughtful and something that is meaningful. So you need to figure out what you're asking for and importantly, why you're asking for it. Then you need to figure out the how, and then also need to figure out the who. And that means often stepping outside of your inner circle to tap the broader network.

Anita Brick: We have some questions around maybe some challenges with getting responses they wanted and balancing things. So one MBA student asked: “How would you advise someone to balance asking for what you really want with asking what you believe the person can provide?”

Wayne Baker: Well, that's a really good question. It's important to realize that when you're asking something that you have to think about beyond that particular person, that person is a network. Don't prejudge the capabilities of a person or a group. You never know what they know or who they know. So, for example, you would never come to me with a question about accounting. However, I know lots of accountants and I could connect you with lots of accountants. You have to think beyond what you think the person knows because they probably know more things than you realize, but they also have a broad network that they can tap as well.

Anita Brick: So if I'm asking you about accounting, I should know that you don't know about accounting. I should have done enough homework to know that. How do I ask that in a way that you don't feel like a means to an end, that you're engaged in that ask in that conversation?

Wayne Baker: Well, it's important to use what we call smart criteria as a specific. You want to ask for something very specific. We have found that sometimes people will make a general ask, thinking that casting a broader net will get better results. That's rarely the case. It's a specific request that triggers people's memories of what they know and who they know.

The M–meaningful–you need to explain. What are you trying to achieve? Why is this in the interests of the organization? The A is action oriented. You ask for something to be done. A goal is not a request. A goal is a destination. And it's what you're trying to achieve. And the request to help you move in that direction. And then you want to ask for something that is realistic, sort of strategically sound. And then you have to have a date. It has to be time bound. We found that if you hit all five of those criteria, it will be formulated in a thoughtful way and more likely to get a positive response.

Anita Brick: Okay. You talk about in the book that I know can be shifted. So there were two related questions. One from a student, one from an alum. The alumni said: “In the book, you talk about turning a no into another request. What advice do you have? If the no isn't explicit and it's just silence?”

Wayne Baker: Well, that's another good question. Reminds me of the days I used to teach at the University of Chicago, and I was impressed with how smart the students were. And this particular question I think you need to ask the find out if you're not getting a response. It could be for any number of reasons the person doesn't wanna respond, or it's more likely it's a bad time, or they're still thinking about it, or something's going on in their personal life and they can't attend to your particular request.

I think it's important to ask. You want to ask in a very polite and thoughtful way, to figure out why the person was getting a no. You could frame and say, look, I'd like to just learn more so, you know, it could be better next time, figuring out what I need and asking for it. And could you tell me why it was a no? And if that silence, you really don't know. Silence contains no information. You really need to ask and find out.

Anita Brick: If the initial ask is a request for time and it's through email. How do you get someone to reply to you if they're not?

Wayne Baker: That's very interesting. You know, email has its place, but if it's a meaningful request, it's usually better to make it using another medium. A phone call is better. A zoom meeting is even better because people can see one another. Doing it face to face is the best of all. I realize sometimes the person you want to talk to or connect with, you know, lives in a different place, a different country, a different time zone. So it may be hard to do a face to face, but the more you can make it personal and the more you can connect with the person in that way and that way in that personal way, I think you get a better response.

Anita Brick: Let me give you an example of someone who I've been working with. He is very interested in moving from a technology role into a policy role in another part of the world. If he knows that someone went through an MBA program and then they did consulting before they did policy, how much of that needs to be in that initial outreach to get the response in the first place?

Wayne Baker: It depends a lot on how the request is made. If you use the SMART criteria, you're more likely to get a positive response. And again, you don't want to overinterpret a non-response or silence. Sometimes people just aren't able to help at that particular time. You know, it also depends on the spirit with which you make the request. If it's sounding more like a demand rather than a request, you may be less likely to get a positive response. You know, and you want to use, you know, the basic rules of a polite conversation.

Anita Brick: Well, I think I was reading it. I read it somewhere else, but I also read it in the book where you talk about it's not a right to have people help you. It's a privilege to have people help you.

Wayne Baker: It is a privilege. And that privilege is earned by helping yourself, being a giver. Really focus on giving. First, I have three rules. I call it join, give, and ask. If you want to expand your network, expand your social capital. Join a group that you really believe in. Get involved in the work of that particular group. That could be an online group, an online community. It could be a local association, and then find ways that you can connect and help other people. And that means listening to people and having a conversation with them, thinking about how you could share what you know or a connection to people that you know, beneficial to that person. When you've made that investment, when you ask, people will be willing to help.

It's when the ask comes out of the blue, out of context, it sounds a little bit more like a demand. You don't really explain why you're making the request, why it's meaningful, why is it important. That’s when we start to run into problems.

Anita Brick: Okay, so here's a student who I thought was very [inaudible]. He said: “I hate to say this, but I find it nearly impossible to give without expecting something in return. Then I'm frequently disappointed. What advice would you have for someone like me? And by the way, I am a giving person.”

Wayne Baker: The true spirit of giving is giving without expectations of return. If this person feels like they're still expecting something, when they hope that is probably being communicated in the interaction, in the conversation, and the other person is picking it up. What I would advise the person to do is to really think about that connection between freely giving, generously giving versus giving, with that expectation of return that you really need to break that connection, to break that link and do it in the right spirit. And then you'll find that everything works a lot better.

Anita Brick: I think this is just really hard. But here's something that an alum found. She works for a global consulting firm. She said: “You talk about that the data shows making a request from an affiliative motive to create a closer relationship is super important. And that that's what works. I haven't really found this to be true in terms of people reaching out to me. I work at a global consulting firm, and when students reach out, it feels like they just want my endorsement and that is it. I am really not a person, but more incidental. What can I do to help them not repeat this mistake?”

Wayne Baker: Well, there are different types, different types of people when it comes to giving and asking. One is the overly generous giver person who gives a lot but never asks. They're not as productive because they don't get the inflow of resources they need to be productive and to perform well. The opposite of that would be the selfish taker. And this is sounding a little bit more like that.

Somebody is, you know, making a connection just to get an endorsement and a much more instrumental way that's being communicated. And in this case, the person is really picking that up. What could they do to help them not repeat the mistake? Well, since it's an alum, I would do it in the spirit of compassionate coaching. I'll be glad to help you, but I want you to know this is how it came across. And in the future, you want to think about the spirit with which you make the request and really think about it from a more positive perspective. It's not just make a connection to take something. So what this person has experienced, I find that people with a little bit of coaching can learn to do a better job of asking.

Anita Brick: And that's true. Most people are open and they are willing to listen and be coached. Here's a variation of all that. Someone has an urgent need to get help from another person. They don't have the relationship already that the need is urgent. Are there any things that that person can do in that short time frame to accelerate that get to know process, to be able to make the request?

Wayne Baker: Yes. Sometimes you're in that situation. Generally I think if you used the SMART criteria to explain why it's important, why you're asking, I think you're more likely to get a positive response. And again, it's approaching it in the right spirit of asking, which is not an expectation, it's not a demand. And to explain the why, why it's so important, why it's beneficial. And I think that would go a long way.

Anita Brick: It sounds like most of this work is internal and more about the person making the ask than even the person who could provide the advice.

Wayne Baker: Well, this exists at different levels, so let's take it up to the level of a group. What a group can do to make asking and giving a normal routine expected process. I'll give you a quick example. It's called the stand up. It's widely used at IT firms and software development firms. We use it, for example, every morning at the center for Positive Organizations with the staff. Essentially, it works this way so that everyone stands up in a circle. These are people in a group or a team. Everyone has to answer three questions. What did you work on yesterday? Would you work on today, and what's a request or what kind of help do you need? So if everyone is doing that and everyone goes around in the circle, everyone has made a request and everyone's thinking about how they could help a particular person meet that particular request, that kind of routine or ritual makes it normal and expected.

In fact, not making the request is letting the group down. That's another way. So yes, we've talked about it mostly from the point of view of the individual making the request. But then I think there are things you could do as a group to create the right context, the right positive practices, ultimately the right culture in which asking and giving is normal and routine.

Anita Brick: That makes a lot of sense. I think it is harder at an individual level, especially if, like the person who mentioned working at a global consulting firm, I suspect that she gets a lot of requests and isn’t that a factor as well? Are there any tips that you would have to identify not necessarily the person who is the most in-demand person, but maybe someone who doesn't have as much visibility?

Wayne Baker: Everyone has good networks. Sometimes we keep thinking about those few people we think of the right person to talk to, but you never know. There's a whole network out there. And so sometimes what you're asking for is a referral to someone who might know. In fact, that's another way to ask. I call that the two-step method. You would say, like, okay, I don't really know who would have the answer for the resource, but I know someone who may know someone, and I asked them if they could suggest someone I could talk to.

So there's a colleague of mine here at the Ross school, Jeff DeGraff, who runs the Innovatrium. It's a way of connecting entrepreneurs and ideas and creating kind of an incubator environment. He told me that he used that two step method 180 times in one year with great success. And you'll say, you know, we often don't know who the expert is, but we know who to ask, who can get us to or who knows the expert is that two step or two degree approach that could really work. So that's another way to ask. And you want to think about not just what people know or what you think they know because they know a lot more, but you want to think about the network that's out there. And once you do that, you realize all the answers and resources that you need are out there just beyond your fingertips, waiting for the request.

Anita Brick: Very interesting point. One of the things that I find interesting, and I think sometimes students and alumni find frustrating, is that LinkedIn helps you and me and everybody identify pretty much anybody. There are people who, if you ask them to connect, will automatically connect. They do it for everyone. Where the glitch occurs is that there's a gap between yes, I'll add you to my network and LinkedIn. And no, I'm not quite ready to take a request from you. What do you advise people to do from making that initial outreach where you become LinkedIn connections, to getting to the point where you can make a request?

Wayne Baker: But first, I don't think it's a good idea to accept every request for connection on LinkedIn. There needs to be a reason why. So for example, I look and see, was it a former student? Was it an alum from Chicago? Was an alum from the Ross School or the University of Michigan? There's got to be a reason to connect, to accept. And I do accept most of them because there is that underlying reasons. That'd be one thing to keep in mind. And, you know, I don't mind when people connect with me and then make a request if I can help, I will if I could connect them to someone who can help, I will. But I also say no when I can't help, and I'll explain why I think that's important. It doesn't mean you have to help everyone, but I think if someone makes a request, you can just politely explain why you can't respond or why you can't be helpful. Or maybe give them an idea or a suggestion.

One thing I find LinkedIn really, really good for is activating your dormant ties. So a dormant tie would be someone that you had a relationship or connection with, you know, years ago. But you haven't stayed connected. You haven't kept up with one another. So your lives have gone in different directions. And the research on this is very clear. Those dormant connections are incredibly good sources of information, of resources. Because you know what people know and their networks don't overlap with yours as much because you've gone in two different directions.

People may be uncomfortable doing that. Again, the research shows that we need to update that belief or that assumption that says that, you know, most dormant connections are glad to be reactivated, and LinkedIn is a great way to do that. It seems like everyone's on LinkedIn these days. You can always find them that way and reconnect. So that's another way of using LinkedIn that I find very helpful.

Anita Brick: I agree with you on both points. I want to know why someone is reaching out to me. Someone reached out to me and said, Hi Elizabeth. I went back and I'm like, who is Elizabeth? And they're like, oh, I met you. Are you still okay to connect? Well, absolutely not. I am like you. I want to understand why. And if there's a good reason, absolutely. I will say yes. That said, I find that a lot of people who make the request after the other person accepts the connection actually don't respond anymore. And I'm wondering if there are any things to do to facilitate that, or it's in some level a numbers game to get people to respond after you have made that LinkedIn connection.

Wayne Baker: There are people on LinkedIn who are making connections just to take just to try to get something. And they are on a fishing expedition. If you suspect that is the case, then you just don't respond or respond in a polite way. And there are those people out there. That's true. Through all walks of life, there are people who are willing to take and not give. You need to be attentive to. That doesn't mean that you should help everyone. What it means is that when you can help, you should. And you should help in two ways. That you can share what you know or resources that you have when it makes sense to do that. Or you can make a connection or referral and tap your network to help a person when you can't do that and it makes sense to do it.

I always advise people to do it, and to do it freely and generously, without expectations of return. Feels good to help. Economists call it the warm glow of helping. When you receive help, there's another positive emotion, which is the gratitude for the help that you've received. We've actually found in our studies when people are grateful for the help they receive from other people, they're more likely to pay it forward and help a third party to help someone else. We call that principle generalized reciprocity. So reciprocity might be, you know, Anita you help me and I help you. And which is a good thing we'd want that to happen. But another way is that you help me, I feel grateful, and I paid for it and helped someone else. I do remember way back when we did the reciprocity ring in Chicago and you participated in that.

Anita Brick: Yes, I remember we were over at Loyola, right?

Wayne Baker: Yeah. I still have a picture of that. The reciprocity ring. The reciprocity ring is a team tool or group level tool where everyone is required to make a request, but you spend most of your time helping other people meet their requests. And what we find in the reciprocity ring is that it's that form of generalized reciprocity is that the people who help you usually are the people that you help, but it's for that more indirect or generalized form of reciprocity, you know.

And it was way back when, when Cheryl and I created the reciprocity ring. You know, I thought getting people to help is going to be the problem, but that turned out to rarely be the case. What we found is that most people were willing to help. And the real barrier, the real problem was getting people to ask. And one of the reasons that the ring works, or these group level tools work, is that it makes asking a normal, expected routine behavior. It is a lot easier psychologically to make a request. If you know that everyone's in the same boat, that everyone's going to make a request.

Anita Brick: I totally agree. In 2009, when the market was 2009,2010, the market was really, really bad. People were struggling. We know it was just a very bad time to be looking for a job. So we did this program and we did a program and it included a number of different things. And I would say that half of the program was finding advocates in your midst. So we were all done and people did that. Some people, they just didn't want to ask. Other people did after it was done. Full disclosure, this was not the most innovative or life changing program I had ever done. It was solid, but it wasn't life changing. Everybody in that room got into a line and waited to thank me for the program.  What they kept saying was, this goes exactly back to the data. This is the first time in three months I've been able to do anything for anyone else. I feel empowered again. I feel hopeful again. And that whole giving and receiving without being a doormat. Of course, you know, the giving part is so important, and it was extraordinary to me.

The other part, and you talk about this in the book, too, is the receiving part. People sometimes feel they have an easier time depending on their family culture, the general culture of giving more than receiving. How do you help people learn how to receive as well?

Wayne Baker: You can't have giving without receiving. And what we found is that you can't have either. Unless somebody makes a request, it's the request or the ask that really drives the giving-receiving cycle. So one thing is to realize that you want to do both. If everyone wanted to give and no one wanted to ask, nothing would happen. And so part of is to come to that understanding that both giving and asking are normal, and you should do both.

So one thing I write about in the book is a number of different barriers or obstacles to asking, and how we can overcome them. I relate just to. So sometimes people don't ask because they are concerned. Others will think they're less competent or ignorant, or they can't do their work, can't do their jobs. We need to update that belief, because there's been research done by a team from Harvard and Wharton that says, you know, as long as you make a thoughtful request, people will think you are more competent, not less. So that's one. Once we update our beliefs based on the evidence, realize that you know that I can use those SMART criteria. Make a thoughtful request knowing that it's not going to harm my reputation. In fact, it will improve it. People will think I'm more competent because I'm making that thoughtful request. Another is that people don't ask because they figure no one could help them.

In a number of experiments out in the real world where they found that most people, even strangers, are much, much more willing to help than you think. People will take me aside and say, you know, I'm not going to ask for what I really need, because, you know, I know no one here can help me. And I always say, don't prejudge the capabilities of the group or of a person is that you never know what people know or who they know until you ask. Once you realize that it's a system, it's a network driven by that principle of generalized reciprocity. It's kind of an invitation to engage and participate, which is be generous, help. People don't have expectations of return and ask. Make a request when you need it to be what I call the giver requester. And what we found in our research is that the giver requesters are highly esteemed because of their generosity, and are the most productive because they're getting the inflow of resources that they need to be productive.

Anita Brick: And there was an MBA student who asked about giver requester. He said: “As I interview for new roles, how can I let an employer know I'm a giver requester if they don't ask?”

Wayne Baker: There's two ways you can do that. One is that you can relate a time, or you can tell a story when you gave to someone, and probably in the workplace would be advisable. In the course of a conversation, you talk about how you reached out and how you help someone to get to the other side. The asking part is that you could describe a problem you ran into. You reached out and you asked for help and the kind of help that you got, and a solution and how that made your work easier, faster, more efficient. Through storytelling, you can give it a story about when you were helpful and a story about when you reached out for help and what happened.

Anita Brick: Well, I love that. In interviews you tell stories all the time, and being able to tell it from both sides is very, very helpful. So thank you. That was very, very insightful on your part. Do you have time for one more question?

Wayne Baker: Oh yes. Let me make one more comment on that. We talked about it from the job applicants point of view, but also the employer can use the same two questions. So for example, you know, someone who is the interviewer can say, tell me about a time when you ran into a problem and you reached out and asked someone for help. If what you get back is a blank stare, then you really learn something that that person doesn't usually reach out when they're stuck.

Anita Brick: Very good point. The next time I do a mock interview, as I'm doing one later today, I'm going to add that question. So that is a good one. You've told us a lot of things. I do think that all you have to do is ask is very clear. It's very concise, very good, informative read. When you think about what we've spoken about today and what's in the book, what are three things they should start doing right now?

Wayne Baker: Well, one thing they could do is take the assessment that is in the book and we've also created a free online version of it, which is nice, not just because it's free, but because you get comparisons to our database. So you could see how you stack up and compare to other people. And if you go to the website for the book, so all you have to do is ask.com, you can take that assessment and kind of see where you are. You know, how often you ask and how often that you help. That would be one to get an assessment to kind of see where you are, see how you compare to others.

The next would be to think about, okay, well, what do you need? What could you ask for? So I talk about three methods in the book. One is the quick start method, just like its name, it's pretty quick and effective. I've used it a lot in executive education. There's a series of sentence starters, and so you fill in the blanks and I'll read just two of them I am currently working on, and I could use help two. So if you could answer those two, fill in those blanks, you'd have a sense of what you're trying to achieve and the resources that you need.

The other one is, one of the biggest challenges in my life is two, and I need advice on. So another way that you can think about by filling in those blanks, what you need and the kind of resource that you need to ask for. And then the third step would be, you know, think of those smart criteria that is specific, meaningful, action oriented, strategically sound realistic. And there's a deadline, there's time bound. And then to go out and make the request, make the ask. And I always advise people to take an experimental approach, which is try it out, learn from it. If it doesn't work, figure out why. So you could do better next time. If it does work, figure out why it worked, you know? But keep trying the experiment and then it becomes more and more of a habit.

Anita Brick: I totally agree. I think of it as you're looking for data, and even if it doesn't work, it's not a failure, it's just data. Any other final words of wisdom, Wayne, that you'd like to share with us today?

Wayne Baker: I think it's important everyone gives themselves permission to ask, and they think about being someone who will ask for help when they need it, and they will generously help other people. So that giver requester you can think about, that's a great place to be as a person, great place to be as a team and as an organization. Over time, you want a balance between those two to be the generous giver, freely helping people without expectations of return and making requests when you need something.

Anita Brick: I think that's really good, and I think part of it is having the courage to ask that you run little experiments. You don't start with the big asks. You can start with the smaller ask.

Wayne Baker: That's right, that's right.

Anita Brick: Thank you for writing the book. Thank you for the tools that you've been developing. So glad that you made the time today. Very, very appreciative and it was great to reconnect with you.

Wayne Baker: Well, thank you, Anita, very great to reconnect. And I've enjoyed our conversation.

Anita Brick: Wonderful. You mentioned the site for the book. I would also encourage people to visit your site, which is waynebaker.org. There’s a lot of very interesting things in your research. So much to learn from you. Thank you again.

Wayne Baker: Oh, well thank you Anita.

Anita Brick: And thank you all for listening. This is Anita Brick with CareerCast at Chicago Booth. Keep advancing.