Your Career Story Communicating To Influence

Anita Brick: Hi this is Anita Brick and welcome to CareerCast at Chicago Booth. To help you advance in your career. Today, we're delighted to be speaking with Ben Decker. He is CEO of Decker Communications and an expert in consulting, training and messaging for effective business communications. From what to say to how to say it. Ben creates focus and confidence to help leaders close the deal, launch the initiative and motivate action. Prior to joining Decker Communications in 2005, Ben spent several years in strategic sales roles in the high tech and medical industries. He holds a B.S. in psychology from California Polytechnic State University and is the author of a fabulous book, Communicate to Influence.

Ben Decker: Thank you for having me on.

Anita Brick: So we had a lot of questions, and I don't know that we'll get to all of them, but people are really interested in career stories, and that's really our topic to start off. There was an alum who said, I am simply interested in hearing some good tips to get started and some inspiring examples to help me also get started.

Even though I know that a story can be told in many ways, I don't really like telling it chronologically, and yet it's really painful for me to write it. And the big task is so big I procrastinate and I've been doing that for a while. I need to break it down into manageable and logical steps. Is that possible and how do I do it?

This is not an uncommon thing. We hear this all the time, whether it's a student or an alum with a little experience or a lot of experience. How can you begin to create a career story? Usually it's a transition story of some kind that you can actually build, and that will influence people to kind of move along with selling you into a new role.

Ben Decker: As I hear that question, I think you said it was from an alum. I think what we tend to do is we think we gotta get the chronological. And I heard him say, write it out and that's always the challenge because I think we're focusing on an interview or an opportunity to share your career story. We're strong advocates of getting away from script, away from words, because it'll bog you down.

You just spent so much time on that sentence of three years ago. The point you're at, what you are doing and you're trying to describe it, versus thinking about the listener and who they are and what they're looking for, and finding the pieces of your story, the tie, kind of what they want. The key theme here is turning your message around into more listener focused versus let me tell you about me and the chronology from this job to that job and my entire career story. That's not the best way to go about it. The best way to go about it is if I'm talking about needing a brick. What is she looking for? What are the key pieces of my history or my book? In this case, tie in to your students at Booth. That's all I'm thinking about.

Anita Brick: That is definitely something that, with both students and alumni globally that we promote. The tricky part, though, is how do you get a series of things or things that you know the other person really wants and you really want to be able to articulate? It's hard. It's really hard to take it from, okay, I know that Ben is interested in A, B, and C. How do I translate this whole jigsaw puzzle of my history into something that is compelling to, in this case, you?

Ben Decker: Some of this is around expectation or we're talking about an interview and sharing your career stories about the focus.

Anita Brick: It could be an interview, but for example, the management conference is coming up in a week and a half. There will be a lot of students and alumni there, and someone comes up to you and says, well, tell me about yourself. Let's say that you know that that person is in a field that you are interested in entering. So sometimes it's informal, you know, in a networking group setting, and sometimes it is an interview. People seem to have a harder time when the expectations are not so clear, like in the case of the event that is coming up, you know, in a couple of.

Ben Decker: Weeks, in an opportunity like that, someone says, tell me about yourself. And it's so easy to fall into the rut of, well, my first job out of college was this, and then I did this, and I was really good at doing this role ten years ago. And then that developed into becoming a director and just almost throwing up a kitchen sink on someone, which isn't the best way to do it.

We forget the personal human element that we buy off on people and we like them. Then we start to justify, well, they did have that experience. We can't forget that piece. We got to think about who we're talking to and turn the message around and connect with them. And that leads into being present, because what we tend to do is we'll fall into this.

Okay, whoever I'm talking to, I give the same shtick. We just share our story versus asking more questions, more details to make it more of a conversation versus a one question into a five minute, one way speech back. That's a challenge we all have, but that's a more skillful way to do it, to connect more with your audience.

Anita Brick: Okay, so let me give you an example. Working with a student who is very, very capable has about eight years of work experience, all in software architecture, project management, and now wants to move into a more strategic role, specifically in strategic consulting. How would they build that story? Even if they are making it conversational, how would they pull out the raw material and structure it?

Ben Decker: One of the goals is to always get our audience to raise their eyebrows and make them think. You can tell the quality or the intelligence of someone by the questions they ask. And a lot of times when you're under pressure, we don't ask questions. We just go and we explain and we share and we talk about our history.

So when you're talking about someone that has an architecture background, they want to get more into strategy. What are questions that will make the audience so that you know what you're talking about? And so really think about their history, what they do, knowing some of the material of what that company went through shows that, you know, the knowledge, have a finger on the pulse, the quality of questions that you asked to show interest versus not being present and just sharing what you think should be told. That creates more of a dialog.

Anita Brick: But how do you do that? I think we need to go back to how do you structure this? How do you start asking questions when they've asked you a question? If someone says, tell me about yourself and the software architect who is the wannabe management consultant, throws that question without answering that initial question, won't that person seem evasive or just ill prepared as opposed to intelligent?

Ben Decker: You have to answer it. And this is where politicians are always called out guilty. They get a question on a well, let's talk about B and they don't address A. And that's really what you're calling out. So you got to answer. Tell me about yourself. So you have to get the software architect what you've done. But then pivot into what interests you and where your passions are. And really the strategy. Maybe something that happened in the last two weeks fascinates you, that you can turn into a question because it shows interest in where you want to go, and that helps them place you. Of R, I see where you might fit, and you have that history of software architect so that could be a fit of the strategy in that section or that group or that organization.

Anita Brick: Okay. So let's take a step back. So now how do I structure? I'm a software architect interested in strategy consulting. What are the steps that you would advise me to take?

Ben Decker: I would get a half a dozen examples of stories, background of things I've done around software architecture. Really good accomplishment that I can put in a 3060 second box to be able to explain. Maybe it's the most well-known project to make them realize, okay, this person has credibility, but then I would go in with 3 to 4 examples around strategy, around a role that I just admired, that I saw within a company I worked for, that I was intrigued, and part of this is being present.

Anita, you got to immediately second of what organization, what type of industry are they in so that you can tie it to their industry? But I would go in with 3 to 4 now we use post-its. We encourage people to think in an analog way of just buckets. Take it right on a post, on a piece of paper, and it will be a picture in your mind.

You'll remember all these ideas that you had. And then when you're in that moment, that high pressure moment, it'll come to you. But I would go in with 3 to 4 examples around strategy that you're intrigued with, that you were impressed with, that made you think, or that you actually just had questions that you want to explore more. It will pop up and then it creates more of that dialog. But those 3 to 4 buckets, not sentences, not paragraphs, but just bucket items that really make you think to create more of that dialog to show your interest and passion.

Anita Brick: So this really answers the question of the album too, because this is not chronological. It is a series of accomplished points in the one that you gave and in part two, it's the transition from, okay, here's what I've done that sort of led me to having this passion or interest in strategy and strategy consulting. And here are some examples. Why? And then that creates a bridge for additional Q&A. In a sense.

Ben Decker: Absolutely. And that makes it a more interesting experience to think more about this experience you're creating that has more ebb and flow and it's more present, and you go back and forth to try to find out as much as you can.

Anita Brick: How do you take this back and forth dialog? People are just so robotic about it. Ask, answer, ask, answer, and it becomes incredibly boring for both people. They ultimately go somewhere else and try to have a different conversation. How do you create real engagement? I understand about being present, but in practical terms, how do you do that?

Ben Decker: We take a two pronged approach. One is behavior, one is content. So let's get into some of the behaviors which we haven't really addressed. We have to know how we come across. Most of us don't. Most of us have not been on video. So a lot of the work we do is we get executives on video, we get salespeople, management engineers, just to be aware of what is the experience you're creating to raise awareness around AI communication.

So back to your point of how do we connect? We got to look at people. A lot of our eyes are darting. We're looking around to catch Joseph or Bob. Even though I'm here with Anita, I should be looking at you, but my eyes are looking around now. Do you feel like you're connecting with me? You don't. So we got to raise awareness around our eyes, around passion, our voice.

So we got to change up our voice versus talk monotone. And let me tell you chronologically about my history and my career. And then you'll tune out and you'll look for someone else to talk to and say, this person would not be able to lead a team. I wouldn't be able to hire this person, because the bottom line is we judge and we judge quickly within 2 or 3 seconds.

And I'm a huge fan of Gladwell's book blink, and they talk about thin slicing. And that's really what I'm describing. Within two three seconds we have a judgment of someone if I like them, I don't, I trust them or I don't. That's just how we operate in our minds, that there's an emotional switch that has a stereotype or categorizes.

Call it whatever you want to call it. But we do judge. So we got to be able to connect from a behavioral standpoint and then content. This is where we introduce a concept called sharps. It's just a lot of what we're talking about. The theme here is story and career story. But sharp is an acronym of stories, humor, analogies, reference or picture.

Now in this back and forth I would obviously focus on stories and analogies. Maybe humor, but humor is not joke telling. It's almost levity. It's finding ways to find lightness in things versus just always serious. When we smile and laugh with each other, we connect in a much deeper way. So we got to find ways to find levity in these back and forth conversations.

Anita Brick: Most of us I won't call anybody else I have been known to. When I talk to someone, I do my best to give them my complete attention. And then these ambient thoughts will come in. Oh, what am I going to have for dinner? Oh, should I walk away and check my phone for text? And we all do this.

I will admit it, but I think we all do this. People have a short attention span. How do you create the engagement? Especially when you have an agenda. You want something from that other person. How do you get them engaged? So they are not looking around the room. They're not desperately trying to pull out their phone to check email. How do you keep them engaged?

Ben Decker: Back to both behavior and content? I think one of the challenges in this short attention span, the challenge around being present in an interview. Everyone likes to talk about themselves, and so you have to find a way to turn it around and show interest in what they're saying. And that's a big deal to any of your students or alumni.

It's a high pressure stake where you want to deliver, and you want a job or you want to be sought after. And so this is no different than a lot of our clients and executives that speak to a board or manage up or have a one on one with their CEO, and they feel this high pressure. And so they don't tend to be present.

They just think, I got to share all the data, all the numbers. I got to get in, I gotta get out. And they don't think about the experiences that they are creating and really connect. We just need to be more authentic and real. But we put a lot of pressure on ourselves and we think as long as I say the words, people will get them. And that's one of the lies we tell ourselves. It's not the way it is. We have to connect. It's more than just the words you say.

Anita Brick: Oh, absolutely. And once you connect and you have them listening, then they're more likely to hear the data, the stories, the accomplishments, because you have their attention now.

Ben Decker: Yeah. Once you have their attention and you create this dialog, and this is where we coach people with a lot of interviews, keep it more brief, and the more you can get the person to smile or laugh or show interest in what you're saying, the better chance you have. But a lot of times we keep it a very serious one on one and we lose that emotional or human connection, and that's very important.

Anita Brick: Oh, no question at all. This is not going to be a surprise to you, but there were a number of questions about the derailment or one person said, I'm the first to admit that I'm a better communicator in written form. Employers really love my resume and my cover letter, and then they seem disappointed when they meet me. And in the interview.

Any suggestions on how to bring my story up to the level of my resume? And it sounds like the facts are all good. How does someone who doesn't feel comfortable making an emotional connection? How can they take a baby step toward doing that?

Ben Decker: Number one is awareness about being that person that's great on resume and great on paper. They don't really know how they're coming across. And this is something that I hope many of your listeners take more seriously, and this is the reason we wrote the book, is just to raise awareness of communications. It tends to be this back burner thing, whether it's laziness or complacency.

Not sure the exact answer, but we don't think much about it, especially as many people that are in business. They go back to back to back. They don't think about their communications. If you get some feedback to realize what you're doing. So number one, the three best ways of feedback are people feedback, audio feedback or video feedback. So I would encourage that great resume on paper person to find a way to get on video to realize what they're doing.

And this is the most fascinating area, Anita, where so many of us have about 40 people that travel the country and world leading programs, we get people on video. Most people have not seen themselves on video, so it's got to be put in a very comfortable environment. So we make it safe with private coaching and they realize, oh my gosh, that's me.

And then my favorite story is I coached a couple of years ago, a 30 year old CEO that was a startup company and about a $30 million company had never seen themselves. So I put them on video and we look at it and as we're watching the video, he says, he asked me to pause it. He says, so wait a second, are you telling me what I did ten minutes ago live?

Is that the same thing as what I'm seeing on video? The question kind of threw me. I know it sounds different to you, but if you're asking me what I saw live behind the camera versus what I'm seeing on TV now with you, it is the exact same because. Are you serious? He's never seen himself. He's CEO of this 70 person, $30 million company.

But he had no idea how he was coming across. That's not that much different than this person. You're describing. That I look great on paper. My connection is not very good. Now. This person was monotone. He was serious. He didn't look at people. Now, those three things have a huge impact on connection.

Anita Brick: Oh, you're absolutely right. And there is a tool that we have called Interview Stream, where they can practice a whole bunch of questions if they want, but they can go in and just practice. Tell me about yourself, send the link to us and we're happy to go over it with them. It's a great idea.

Ben Decker: Audio or.

Anita Brick: Video, it's video.

Ben Decker: Oh that's fantastic. Tell every student that's great.

Anita Brick: There are a couple of other things that were also, I would say, increasingly challenging. One weekend, students said, I've moved around quite a bit in the early part of my career. I'm currently in my fourth job in eight years. The first two jobs were adversely affected by the economy, and my company was either acquired or just folded. But I'm worried now that my resume looks like I'm someone who won't stay at any one company for very long. How do I create a story about the number of jobs I've held in such a short period of time? Because it always comes.

Ben Decker: Up a lot of times when people get a question that they don't know the answer to, they'll make up answers or they'll dance around it. And that's similar to this. It's going to be easy for that person to dance around what that looks like versus when you get a question, you not the answer, and you come very direct about it and say, you know what, I actually don't know those answers.

But here's what I do know. And there's something about the authenticity of that. So I would encourage this person to be as truthful and honest about that exact example and say, you know what? These two jobs are unfortunate, but what I'm looking for is this. And this last job was the right role. But it's not finding the career and the company that I can grow in that role. So it almost pushes the ugliness aside and it lays out the truth. And I think people appreciate that versus skirting or sidestepping.

Anita Brick: Good point. So here's another one that's even more challenging, I would say from an alum. I was in a senior level role, but was recently terminated after making a mistake. They cost the company a whole bunch of money. Clearly I left not on good terms. Given this, how do I tell a compelling story without it coming off like a failure? Because people are going to ask me why I left.

Ben Decker: Now we're getting into ethical issues. I'm not going to encourage your alumni or students to lie, but focus on the positive and find one of the reasons, whether it be culture fit. Not everything was perfect in this situation. To do your best to not focus on that one major negative that makes you look really bad. Otherwise, you're gonna have to really fall on the sword. And that's a tough one to walk around saying, I made a decision that cost millions of dollars and that's why they let me go.

Anita Brick: You're right. I mean, at some point they may have to share the reason for leaving, but there are many ways of sharing that. I know someone else who had a situation like this, and what he did was very much like you suggested. He didn't absolve himself from responsibility, but he then very quickly pivoted into what he had done that was good and positive and productive.

He actually was able to pivot along those lines. And executive MBA students said, how can a person build trust and credibility when changing careers or going after a more senior role? Because we know and you talk a lot about trust and a lot about credibility, how do you gain trust in credibility in an area where you aren't proven yet?

Ben Decker: There's a term that I've learned recently that one of my clients used in his speech focused on learning agility and the ability to learn as you go because roles change, jobs change, but you show that you learn once you get going in, you are not calloused in your learning mindset. And so that's what this growth mode, this growth mindset that you can learn as you go.

I think that has a lot to do with it. Now, the term executive presence has been big for the last five, ten years. Executive presence can mean a lot of different things to many different people. To me, it just means a confident person that has to do with how you hold yourself, how you carry yourself, how you come across, which has to do with eyes, which has to do with are there any distractions going on there, even ums and us.

If I say, you know, you know, you know, it takes away some of my credibility in this interview with you, Anita. So I got to be aware of any fillers that I might have used. Now there's a great Amy Cuddy who's a Harvard professor. She has a great quote around warmth and competence. Do you know this one?

Anita Brick: Oh, absolutely. We use this in some of the leadership programs and people are shocked. They assume that competence trumps warmth every time. And it's actually the opposite way. That was one of the follow up questions to pivot a little bit here. If you feel comfortable in the numbers, a lot of our folks do, and you maybe don't feel as comfortable with the emotional, the interpersonal side, how do you bring some warmth to the table if it's not something you feel comfortable with?

Ben Decker: Many of us let comfort be our guide. This is maybe a little more controversial. For example, let's say I have an opportunity to speak to a couple hundred students and I feel most comfortable standing behind the lectern, looking at my notes, speaking the way I want to. That's more comfortable to me, but is it as effective to the 200 of you?

And the answer is no. And so I use that as an extreme example to say, do not let comfort be your guide. So much of our communication is based on habits, and we all have certain habits. Whatever it is we do, we keep doing the same thing because that's most comfortable to us. It doesn't mean it's the most effective.

What I would combat that with is to your students that don't feel comfortable doing some of these things, you should always be uncomfortable. I mean, we joke in our role of communications coaches and trainers that our role is to make you uncomfortable. We're paid to make you uncomfortable because so many of the things that we coach and train, they don't feel comfortable.

If my habit is this monotone voice, and just to talk like this with Anita Burke on this, this opportunity, I don't feel comfortable doing this. But it's more effective in the end. Who cares about my own comfort? And it's not theater. It's not acting, it's just tinkering. So continue to find ways to ask more questions. Continue to find ways to smile more.

Smiling is a big one, especially for those that struggle with interpersonal skills. They probably tend to not smile that much. And that's where that Amy Cuddy quote comes in of warmth has to become before competent. But we feel the numbers and the data have to come first. And we have to change that mindset.

Anita Brick: Oh I agree, what would you advise someone? There was someone who came in anonymously and said, you know what, I don't like to be uncomfortable. This evening a student said, I've come to the conclusion that I'm actually unwilling. A part of me wants to be willing. How do you help someone who makes excuses and maybe, dare I say, is scared to go from unwilling to willing to make minor modifications and then have those built.

Ben Decker: In the book we talk about this growth mindset versus fixed mindset. And so what you're describing to me is more of this fixed mindset, growth mindset, more of a willingness and a desire to change and to always get better. My guess is most both students have a growth mindset is my guess just because of the success of senior numbers.

Yep, the way we do it, a lot of times I'll get an executive. Most of my world's one-on -one coaching. They sometimes are made to be with me. You know, the HR CEO said, you need help with this. I need you to be better. So they come in with an unwillingness. And one of the tricks that I do is I just get out of the way.

And so we get them on video. And when you see yourself on video and realize, so that's me, what am I going to do about it? Because they come in with a dismissive attitude, or an arrogant or overly confident sort of person, I don't need this. I've made it to an SVP. EVP, why would I do this?

And then when they see themselves, they realize, all right, that person is not perfect. That person can be better. I get it now. There's a term I love that one of our clients uses: a self propelling engine. And what that means is trying something that doesn't feel comfortable and seeing the results, whether it be sharing a more personal story, being more transparent, seeing more vulnerability, smiling, being able to voice.

Something that makes you feel more uncomfortable. And when you see the results of it, it becomes a self propelling engine. Meaning that work? I want to do this more. And that's how you at least start with the baby steps. So I would push them to try something and that gets them uncomfortable. And I think they'll see a little success there.

Anita Brick: Lots of ways around here that you can do that where the risk isn't high. I think if you choose something with the stakes really high, maybe you won't do it then. But there are lots of ways to experiment. There are events all the time and there are ways to experiment. But I like that. I think that's really great because sometimes the gas is really the courage to try something different or do something different. And then once you do it, move along. Do you've time for 2 or 3 more questions?

Ben Decker: Yes.

Anita Brick: Of course. Okay, good. An exact can be. A student said, I believe I'm ready to move to the C-suite, but the recruiters are not buying it. They like me but reject me as a candidate. And they said they want someone who's already had a few years at that executive level. Any suggestions for how to break through using my story are more than welcome.

Ben Decker: If it were me, I would do research on other executives that made that leap and are succeeding. I would share examples, stories and analogies and comparisons of leaders that were very successful and brought this new perspective and the value of that, because bottom line is you're doing two sales. You're selling the recruiter just to be open and willing to represent you and push you because their credibility is on the line when they bring you to the client because they could lose credibility.

You almost have to get that recruiter on board and realize, oh, I see the angle. I see how I can position you well for this fresh eyes, fresh perspective, whether it be external or internal, there's always different angles. And so you got to find where it would be of value. If you have a target company, you can do more research there to figure out, hey, X person did this and they came from that and they brought this value. That's how I see myself. So it gets more of an emotional buy in from that recruiter and kind of nodding their head, say, I could see that. Yeah, yeah, let's push this with a couple opportunities. I would go about it that way.

Anita Brick: I like that. That's a great idea, a weakened student said when looking back at one's career, how do you pick stories that can be used in different industry settings?

Ben Decker: It takes me back to a little bit of how we started. I mean, the more you know about your audience, the more you can tie it in. Grab 1 or 2 stories from each of the roles. And this is where even being present, even looking at your career and reminding yourself of things you've done, most of us don't remember.

Think about it. Who am I talking to? And did I do something that relates to what they did that should help? But you gotta look at your career, and you have to look at your resume and think of a couple opportunities that may have highs and lows, because that will show transparency and vulnerability if you can just share some of the lows.

Anita Brick: Even I would agree. I was actually chatting with a colleague earlier this morning. She was going into a presentation with teenagers. That's a tough audience and she led with vulnerability. She led with the challenges, and some of them were pretty severe challenges because she wanted to create an emotional connection with these teenagers who were really struggling with some big challenges of their own and the vulnerability.

I think as long as it doesn't make you lose credibility, you can make that initial connection. I think the other thing, and this is something I'd love to get your thoughts on, to what I hear from executive recruiters and even internal recruiters is that they look for resilience and having some of the vulnerability. As long as you can show how you either turned it around and or learned from it can actually be used to your advantage.

Ben Decker: Yeah. Which goes against our nature to show any weakness. What is the most common question that I'm trying to think of how it's worded. What is it? What is your biggest weakness? It's something like that. What? Like, tell me your biggest weakness. And a lot of times, yeah. Oh, yeah.

Anita Brick: Definitely.

Ben Decker: I'm a procrastinator or. No, no, not procrastinating. I'm a perfectionist. That's probably the number one answer. Yes. Or I work too, maybe. Yeah. Which isn't a weakness. There's no transparency of vulnerability there. The idea of pivoting and sharing the vulnerability and transparency into a positive to show learning agility, because it's not just leadership, it's not just a presentation thing. It turns into a brand, turns into who you are with even family.

Anita Brick: It's very true. It's true. Well, there was one question and I'm going to modify it a little bit, but we can. Students said you make this sound so easy, but for me it's not. If you are going to advise this person, what are three things that you would advise someone who wanted to move from where we started with that informing and directing and just saying, you know, here are all the things I've done to use your language in your four quadrant model. How do you move them from informing and directing to inspiring?

Ben Decker: We introduced this communicator's roadmap, and it's difficult to talk through by phone, but imagine a two by two grid with the bottom left quadrant being informed and going up to the top left being entertained, the top right being influenced, the ideal spot, and then the bottom right. It's being direct and really the vertical axis is emotional connection. The higher up you are, the more trustworthy, the more loyal, the more likable you are.

And then the lower the less obviously. And then the horizontal axis is. On the left side is what you talk about. Your widget, your stuff, your content versus the right side. It's about them. So you can see where in the top right, this inspires, this influence. Ideal spot for almost any and all communications that we want to be in.

That's where you want to be. So just like a GPS, you get in the car and you don't just say take me somewhere, you actually put in an address. So the idea around this communication road map is to figure out where you want to go if you are the life of the party, but there's no value coming from you, you'd be in the top left, that entertainer.

People like you, but you're not saying anything that's going to change anything. So you've got to shift your content to be more about the audience. Where do you want them to go? That is directing people where to map your opportunity, where to map your experience. You have to figure out where you are. So that's where I would start.

And then it's not overwhelming because a lot of people are, and I think a lot of students and alumni are Type-A. Give it all to me. I'm going to do it all. And that's where you say, you know, you make it sound so easy, but it's really hard. The reason it's hard is because we put seven things on our head.

I got to do this, I got to do that, I got to do this and I got to do that. It's too much, too intimidating. It's really hard. And it's very ineffective. So I would tell that person, focus on one thing, just one thing. And so depending on where you are on that communication roadmap, it might be around behavior just to connect better.

It might be around content but focused on one thing to not overwhelm yourself. And you will start to see a difference and then eventually make it more of a habit so you don't have to think about it so you can move on to the second thing. But I think what we do is the reason it's so hard is we make it hard on ourselves because we put so much on our plate. So we just got to ease up on that.

Anita Brick: To know where you are. Take it easy, give yourself a break, start with something and build on there. Is there a third thing?

Ben Decker: That's planning to start being aware of where you are and knowing 1 or 2 things to know where to go. You will start to see a difference in that area and you'll get some feedback. I guess the third thing is continue to get the feedback to know, hey, am I doing it? Am I doing too much or too little? How much can I push it? Because most of us are afraid to push it, especially around behaviors. So stay in the feedback mode. In a lot of students, we don't know what we're doing. So that feedback loop has got to continue really our whole lives.

Anita Brick: You're absolutely right. And I think one thing that you said early on is find some things that make you feel a little uncomfortable so that you continue to grow and become that self propelling engine. That's all. Good to thank you again for doing this today, for writing the book. Really, really liked it. I think it's very practical. You do in the book what you encourage people to do.

So you have the facts and then you have the stories and analogies, and it kind of brings it all together in a way that is easy to apply. So thank you for doing that. And I know there are also a lot of good things on the books website which is www.communicatetoinfluence.com. Ben, thanks so much again for doing this.

Ben Decker: Thank you. And it was a great show.

Anita Brick: Thanks a lot and thank you all for listening. This is Anita Brick with CareerCast at Chicago Booth. Keep advancing.