Working Green as a Career Strategy

Anita Brick: Hi, this is Anita Brick, and welcome to CareerCast at Chicago Booth to help you advance in your career. Today we're speaking to Jim Cassio, who is a workplace researcher, strategist, and author of many books, including the one we're going to focus on today, which is Green Careers. Jim, thank you so much for making the time to do this.

Jim Cassio: You're welcome. Glad to be with you.

Anita Brick: So tell us a little bit about how you began studying career and workforce trends, but specifically about green careers.

Jim Cassio: I have been a career information and workforce development consultant for more than 20 years. I do labor market studies. I study everything from jobs to skills to occupations to industries. Half of my work is with workforce boards around the countries. They want to know where the needs are in the labor market, so they can work to develop training programs and prepare people.

A lot of my work is in that sector, and of course, I work with private companies that have a need for career and labor market information, or someone to interpret the data for them. The last four or five years I've been focusing on green jobs and the green economy. It's always been an interest of mine, having been a park ranger once upon a time.

Anita Brick: Oh, wow.

Jim Cassio: The last four or five years I've been focusing on green jobs, and I've published a few publications, including the Green Careers Resource Guide, which is a free e-book that's available on my website, cassio.com, as well as the book that you're aware of, Green Careers: Choosing Work for a Sustainable Future, which was just published a couple of months ago by New Society Publishers.

That book is basically 360 pages devoted to profiling about 90 different green careers. It includes interviews with people that work in those careers, as well as the traditional occupational information that people expect, like what are the hiring requirements, how much do the jobs pay, where are the jobs, that sort of thing.

Anita Brick: It is really amazing. So when you think about the 90 different areas that you look at in the book, which areas do you think are most open to people who have an advanced-degree business background like an MBA?

Jim Cassio: I think there's a great need for sustainability professionals. And so that I would say would be number one. Any organization that's committed to sustainability, whether it's a long-term commitment or whether they've just recently committed themselves to sustainability and green values, they're going to have a need for people at all levels in the organization, including business executives, mid-level executives, and so forth.

Finance people, accounting people. In addition to that, and the one that I put first and foremost, are the sustainability professionals. These are people who, even in the recession, are being hired by colleges and universities to be the sustainability expert on campus. They teach classes, they teach seminars, they educate faculty and administrators, they coordinate green events.

And then cities and counties increasingly are hiring sustainability professionals. They often call them sustainability officers or sustainability coordinators. They do much the same thing. Their role is still education. Their role is to be the sustainability expert for that city or for that county. Help them with policy decisions. Maybe coordinate green teams among city and county workers, or even among people in the community. Residents of a community. For example, there's a sustainability coordinator that I interviewed for my book, and he seems to spend most of his time coordinating green teams—residents in the community who problem solve, they brainstorm, they come up with policy suggestions for the city council on how to make the community more sustainable, more environmentally responsible, and more eco-friendly.

Private corporations are sort of the third wave here with the sustainability professionals. Increasingly, private corporations, even if they're not green or sustainable or committed to those values, if they want to become greener, more environmentally responsible, oftentimes the first thing they do is they hire a sustainability professional, a consultant, or they create a position for someone like that to come in and help them figure out what are the challenges and how can they meet those challenges? How can they reduce their energy needs, save energy, save money on energy, become greener, more environmentally responsible?

Anita Brick: So what kind of skills and experiences do they typically value the most?

Jim Cassio: Well, knowledge of sustainability is the easy answer there, right?

Anita Brick: Well, how do you get that if you haven't been in the field yet? Or is that not the entry point into that kind of career?

Jim Cassio: Some people, surprisingly, learn much of it on their own.

Anita Brick: Really? OK.

Jim Cassio: There are books, there are seminars. You know, there's all kinds of opportunities to learn about sustainability, even pick up a certificate in the process. So not everyone has to go through some sort of a special program to become designated as a sustainability professional. So some of these people have a science background, some of them have a business background, and some of them are very much self-taught.

So there's all kinds of possibilities for getting into that field and becoming a sustainability expert. There is not just one path.

Anita Brick: I mean, that's very interesting. Where would someone find out the kinds of associations related to this? You mentioned certificate programs. If that gives someone a competitive edge, that could be very interesting to students and alumni from Booth. Where could we find those associations and even the certificate program?

Jim Cassio: There are many organizations. So I can suggest two things. One is just starting with the International Society of Sustainability Professionals, ISSP. You could do a Google search and go to their website and learn more about them. But in the process, you could also look for other organizations that represent sustainability professionals. You could also go to my Green Careers Resource Guide. That's the free e-book that you can download from my website.

Anita Brick: That's great. I will add the link. The link will be in your bio.

Jim Cassio: That book just has page after page after page of resources, professional associations, trade associations. There's probably 50 websites now that are devoted to green jobs. So there's a lot of resources. And that's another thing that's covered in my resource guide.

Anita Brick: Excellent. Well, thank you for sharing that. It's really wonderful. You know, one of the things I've heard—and one of the Evening MBA students asked about this—he said that he really wanted to understand how to crack the code on breaking in, because it seems like there's a lot of talk and there's a lot of activity going on in this area.

But at least his experience is that it's a close-knit community. How would you recommend that someone show that they're not just jumping on the bandwagon, but they're truly committed to this, to sort of break into the community?

Jim Cassio: That brings up the issue of the current job market and the impact of the recession. You know, it's just extremely competitive.

Anita Brick: So given that HR departments are really, really taxed right now, what would you, as a potential applicant, do to make yourself stand out and to actually increase your chances of an interview, even if you don't necessarily have previous sustainability or green experience?

Jim Cassio: Volunteering is one way to pick up some green-related experience when you don't otherwise have it. There are thousands of green-focused nonprofit organizations and other community groups and even civic groups that can provide you with volunteer opportunities. There's even private companies that can provide you with valuable volunteer opportunities, where you can pick up some of that green experience, maybe pick up a skill or two in the process, use it as a networking opportunity, and you never know what doors might open from that experience.

So if your interest is not in picking up trash along the side of the river, you don't have to do that kind of volunteer work. Your volunteer work can be strategically planned to benefit your career, so it's just a matter of getting out and selling yourself as a potential volunteer to the right organization. And they are out there.

There are thousands and thousands of nonprofit organizations that focus on green subjects. Some of them are very small. They might have one or two employees, but they depend on a volunteer workforce. And of course, there are many nonprofits that are job creators. They have hundreds or even thousands of employees. So there's a whole world of possibilities there as far as picking up volunteer experience, green-related experience.

Anita Brick: That's a great idea. And so, would some of the potential avenues be in the resource guide?

Jim Cassio: Yes.

Anita Brick: OK. Terrific. People are actually willing to do that. And it sounds like that would be good whether it's someone who is currently in school, maybe currently in an MBA program, wanting to move in that direction because it would give evidence of that desire and commitment.

But it could also work for someone who is mid-career, who wants to be able to mitigate a concern that an employer might have if they don't have that direct experience.

Jim Cassio: Exactly.

Anita Brick: A few questions that came into looking at the market a little bit, like what's going on there? What are you seeing both in terms of technologies that are helping companies be environmentally responsible? But also how would you recommend that someone look for those under-the-radar entrepreneurial ventures?

Jim Cassio: I think you talk to other entrepreneurs, you read about other entrepreneurs, and that stimulates the thinking and allows you to think more creatively. That would be one thing, and informational interviews are something I highly recommend to people, not just people pursuing the green job or career, but you know, any career explorer or job seeker. That's often the thing that they realize they should do, they intend to do, but they procrastinate and they don't end up doing the informational interviews.

Some people just get turned down over and over and over when they request informational interviews. But I have to tell you, there are other people that almost never get turned down. So yeah, it comes down to strategy. Knowing how to do it, how to approach people, how to network and identify the right person, and how to make the interview about that person that you're interviewing.

It's not about you. You come second. The first priority in an informational interview is the person you're talking to. Make them feel important.

Anita Brick: That's a really good point. We had a networking panel that was targeting alumni and Executive MBA students. What you just said—about making it about the other person, making sure that you show interest and that you listen—all of those things are so crucial because otherwise you won't be taken seriously and you probably won't get any help from that person.

Jim Cassio: Exactly. Make it about the other person and learn what you can from what they know about their profession and their industry. Believe it or not, I do these informational interviews all the time. I don't always have the time and the resources to go into a formal study to do survey research. That's great, when we have the resources and the time to do that.

But a lot of times I can learn a lot just by talking to somebody for 15 or 20 minutes. And that person might even be retired, or they might even be out of a job at the moment. But most people walking around have some area of expertise that you can learn from. So it's a matter of appreciating that and making that work for you.

Anita Brick: It's a very good point. Are you seeing much growth in—getting back to the second part of the question—in terms of business technologies and applications? Because I know a lot of students and alumni at Booth have either software architecture or software project management capabilities. Are you seeing much growth in terms of opportunities for people like that?

Jim Cassio: Well, right now, in this recession, the word growth comes with an asterisk.

Anita Brick: Yeah, you're right, you're right.

Jim Cassio: It's all relative. And right now, you know, the job market is just so tough. And some people just, they can't help but become very discouraged and even just stop looking for a job. But when it comes to technologies, there is growth in the cleantech sector. You can look at investment in cleantech over the last few years, and even though cleantech investment was down this year, it is beginning to rebound.

And by the end of the year, it's probably not going to look bad at all. And there's certainly high expectations for cleantech investment next year. There's also been the economic stimulus package. And you know, all the billions of dollars that that is spending or investing, depending on how you see it—and a lot of that is targeted at cleantech industries and the technologies that they're developing: alternative fuel vehicles, advanced battery systems, fuel cells, renewable energy, anything connected to energy efficiency.

I think green building has tremendous potential to become the standard for construction in the future. And this is not irrelevant to business students. Green building is almost to the point—according to the builders and the architects that I've spoken with, it's almost to the point where you can build a green or energy efficient building or home without spending additional money, and that's always been the issue in the past.

People want to be green, but they don't want to spend extra money to be green. And if you can build a home or a building that's energy efficient, that's green, and you don't have to spend any extra money, why wouldn't you do it? You'd have a healthier place to live or to work. You'd improve the value of the property. You'd save money on energy. So, you know, all the reasons are there to do it. And we're very close to that point.

Anita Brick: And that's a really good point. And you were talking about funding going into that green and sustainability space. How do you see private equity and venture capital? Do you think that they're driving forces? Is that where the funding is coming from, or is it coming from government things?

Jim Cassio: Yeah, the stimulus package is almost $800 billion …

Anita Brick: Right.

Jim Cassio: … over a two-year period. And depending on how you define green, maybe 60 billion of that is targeted to create green jobs and to invest in green industries like renewable energy, energy efficiency and so on. So there is that. But I think more importantly, and in terms of, you know, outside of this two-year period where the government is spending a lot of money, looking at the private investment that's reflected in cleantech, the development of new technologies that are environmentally friendly, I think that's significant.

We have billions of dollars being invested in private money in these new technologies to develop and manufacture these new technologies. Solar, wind, even water technologies, agriculture technologies, the smart grid replacing our old, outdated, largely manual electrical distribution system with a new computer-driven system that's efficient, that allows people to connect to the grid and be compensated for the energy that they contribute to the grid.

Like if you have a solar system or wind power, you will have periods where you have excess energy. So that can be contributed to the grid and that can come off of your utility bill.

Anita Brick: So it's a good point. It's a really good point. And it seems like other people are sort of jumping into that. I had heard that Boeing has a new solar panel product that's 40 percent more efficient than its competitors right now. So it seems like other people other than traditional green companies and green industries are moving into that direction, too.

Jim Cassio: Right? And if someone's interested in exploring a technology-based career, you know, cleantech is where they need to investigate, find out who the cleantech companies are, see what they're developing, what products are they developing or manufacturing. Find out who you want to work for and what types of jobs they have. And then, of course, you know the traditional—you compare your skills and your experience to what their needs are, right?

And you fill in the gaps, and then you're a legitimate applicant.

Anita Brick: Absolutely. And there are some very useful resources in our Career Resource Center that are focused actually on cleantech, because there's a growing interest both among alumni and students for that.

A couple of other things there. So one wants to work for a traditional energy company, like Exxon, ConocoPhillips, BP, etc., but wants to have a green career within those companies. And was asking the question, if you are working for a company that is really in a traditional oil and gas kind of environment, how can someone strike a balance and create a green career within that context?

Jim Cassio: That's a matter of opinion. There are people that believe… that are very cynical about the oil companies that are beginning to reinvent themselves as energy companies. They're definitely creating sustainability divisions or departments and what have you, to put a green spin on things. So it's the same thing as looking at an electrical company that has a long track record of not being green, but now they're championing themselves as the green energy company.

Anita Brick: Right.

Jim Cassio: Same thing with the oil companies. So some people are very cynical and not likely to forgive them any time soon for their past, you know, discretions. Finding a green job with a company like that is just not a possibility for some people. But for other people, they're more practical. They take them for what they're trying to do right now.

Anita Brick: And maybe that this person needs to have, like you said before, and we advise people to do this, to have some informational interviews, both with people in those companies to get a sense of it and maybe even people who used to be at those companies who may have a little bit more of a cynical view so they can identify maybe pockets within the companies where they can make a difference, even if the larger company isn't necessarily as green.

Jim Cassio: Yeah, exactly. Those informational interviews are just so important.

Anita Brick: So one person—variation on this, an alum said, I'm currently working in the sustainability consulting field and frequently encounter what amounts to an ethical dilemma. How can we identify companies who are committed not to just being less bad, but to actually being more good? I thought that was a very interesting question.

Jim Cassio: Yeah. And this brings up the subject—this may not be addressing that directly, but I think it's still quite relevant. This brings up the subject of greenwashing. I think there's a lot of greenwashing going on that—people don't even realize they're greenwashing. They're companies that are representing themselves as green when they're not green, or they're representing themselves as greener than they really are, or their products as green when they're not green.

In fact, only recently, the first major study of greenwashing was completed, I think, by the TerraChoice Group. They studied 2,000 green products in various places around the world—English-speaking countries around the world. And they found that 98 percent of the time, there was greenwashing involved in promoting and advertising those products.

Anita Brick: Now I'm assuming greenwashing means making it sound better than it actually is.

Jim Cassio: Yeah, misrepresenting your case or your business or your product being green.

Anita Brick: So how do you actually cut through all of that and find companies that are the real deal?

Jim Cassio: This is getting back to the person's question. I think a lot of this is a matter of education. A lot of people don't really understand what green is. Some people—green to them is just being eco-friendly. You know, you can still be the same consumer you always were as long as you throw everything in the recycling container.

Recycling is a green activity. But you know what? The recycling industry is not as green as people think it is.

Anita Brick: Oh, interesting.

Jim Cassio: Very interesting. You know, so reducing and reusing. Now that's what reduces the carbon emissions: reduce and reuse. And then with whatever's left you recycle it rather than contribute it to the landfill. That would be green. But just the idea of consume and recycle—that's not green. And yet a lot of people associate recycling with green. So as long as they put up recycling containers, they can call their business a green business.

Well, that's greenwashing. They may not realize it. So a lot of it is education, right? A lot of it is better understanding what sustainability is. What does being green really mean? So we have to work through that because there's just a lot of misunderstandings. And a lot of people are just beginning to be more receptive to being green.

So I wouldn't want to hit them over the head and say, you're not green enough. Hopefully they'll become not just receptive, but more educated on being truly green. Part of being truly green is realizing that we don't have all the answers right now. Maybe some of the things that we believe right now that are green are going to prove not to be so green in the future, especially when you apply a life cycle assessment to a product.

You know, that's something that most people, the average person has never heard of. And when we begin to look at, you know, our products in terms of a life cycle assessment, I think we're going to see things differently, sometimes very differently.

Anita Brick: So it's really fascinating. It is an evolutionary process that’s happening, and the changes are very quick. But how could I, as a business professional, whether I'm a student or an alum, identify companies that are, at least at this point, viewed as more green and for real? Is it the site that you had mentioned? I mean, would you look for companies that have true sustainability groups ? What are some ways—because it sounds like it would be really hard to sift through everything—what would you advise someone to use as filters to identify companies that really are green?

Jim Cassio: Yeah. Certification program. There are certification programs for businesses as well as for products.

Anita Brick: Oh got it. OK.

Jim Cassio: And certification programs for businesses have been created by cities, by counties, by nonprofit organizations. And so, for example, there is a trade industry association that will certify restaurants as green restaurants. If you're familiar with the certification, you can go to a restaurant that's certified as a green restaurant. You can have some confidence that a restaurant is going to be using fresh, organic, locally grown produce, for example.

There's going to be very little waste. Everything will be recycled. There's going to be zero styrofoam in that restaurant. And there are certifications for businesses like the cities and the counties that I mentioned. There's not any single directory that will tell you where these certification programs are. But again, you can resort to a Google search, and you can look for a certified green business program and then use your city name or your county name. Within almost every county in the country, there's some kind of a business certification program, and then you need to find out what the criteria is.

Most of the certification programs will have criteria that those businesses live up to. So … and that usually means saving on energy, reducing pollution, and reducing use of water. Basically the whole conservation approach of reduce, reuse, and recycle. And measuring carbon footprint is another big one for companies that or businesses that want to be more environmentally responsible.

Anita Brick: And it's interesting with that question—and if you have time, I'd like to ask you one final question—it sounds like getting companies to commit to being really green is an evolutionary process, and not something that people can force.

Jim Cassio: It is. And again, it's very much an educational process. With some companies, it's the essential brick wall, and you just have to wait until the mortar weakens. And the companies, they have the potential to be reinvented tomorrow. My brother has never been known as a green person or, you know, eco-friendly, but he has a traditional janitorial service, and his customers began to ask for green cleaning services a few years ago.

And so he began doing green cleaning. And within a few years, he has reinvented his company and it’s twice the company that it was before. And now they specialize in green cleaning.

Anita Brick: That's awesome.

Jim Cassio: And not only, you know, has he created a better business for himself, but he's created a little niche for himself as a consultant who helps other janitorial companies go green.

Anita Brick: Oh that's great. But do you have time for one more question?

Jim Cassio: Yeah.

Anita Brick: OK, great. So if you were going to advise someone—whether they're currently in school, mid-career, or someone who is seeking a green career—what are the top three things that you would suggest that this person do to increase his or her chances of success?

Jim Cassio: Take every class you can squeeze in that has to do with sustainability. Do as many internships as your schedule will allow, and make them as career oriented as possible.

Anita Brick: Or volunteering if it's an alum. Right?

Jim Cassio: That was number three.

Anita Brick: Oh I'm sorry, I jumped ahead.

Jim Cassio: That's OK, you're right in line here. Number one, take all the sustainability classes you can. Number two, internships: make them work for you. And three, and this may be simultaneously or after you've finished your degree, start as a volunteer. Don't be afraid to pick up your first few experiences as a volunteer.

Anita Brick: And if you're mid-career, is there anything you would add?

Jim Cassio: Well, mid-career, it's basically the same approach. Don't be afraid to be a volunteer. You know, it's not about age. And if a private company says we don't have volunteers here, then ask about an unpaid internship and you don't have to be a college student at most places of business to be an unpaid intern, it just gives them a way of putting you in a classifications so that you're covered by their liability insurance.

They don't want to have people on site doing work for them that aren't covered by their insurance. So that's always an issue for a company, a legitimate issue. And so you have to figure out a way that you can provide them with those free services. And it's not a liability issue. So an unpaid internship is often the solution for a private company that's unfamiliar with having volunteers on site.

Anita Brick: And it sounds like, from what you said before, to really assess your skills and experiences and see how it will benefit any organization that you target, certainly do a good self-assessment, as we talked about a little bit earlier, but also have those informational interviews so you can identify what their need is that you might be able to be a solution for.

Jim Cassio: Absolutely. And when you're looking at your skills, this one last thing I'd love to add here. When you're looking at your skills, it's one thing to look at your skills and let that suggest the career possibilities for you. A higher level of acting on that is to not only identify your skills but identify what skills you enjoy using versus what skills you don't really enjoy using.

We all have skills that we enjoy using, but there are also skills we have that we don't enjoy using. So a skills assessment that doesn't focus you on what skills you enjoy using, if your background is in healthcare, it's just going to suggest that you go back into healthcare. It's going to suggest other avenues within healthcare.

But if you focus on what skills you enjoy using and what skills you don't enjoy using, you might find that healthcare is not the path for you. Despite the fact that that's where most of your skills had been developed in the past. So I think it's really helpful for people when they're looking at their skills to try to identify the ones that they enjoy using.

Anita Brick: Good. I think that's good because, you know, you're going to be more passionate about it. And if you are going to do more, you'll probably even come up with innovative solutions that others might not even come up with.

Jim Cassio: Exactly. You're taking the words right out of my mouth.

Anita Brick: Well, you know, I really thank you so much for doing the work that you're doing because how important is it? Number one, on a macro level. And there is clearly more interest both from students and alumni. And I'm sure that Booth is not unique in this respect, that there is more interest out there. And you're able to help people see where they might fit.

And also sharing all this knowledge is wonderful. So thank you for doing that. Thank you again. If you want to download, it sounds like it's a great document, a resource guide on resources around green careers and sustainability, if you go to www.cassio.com. And Jim, thanks again.

Jim Cassio: Thank you, Anita.

Anita Brick: Thank you all for listening. This is Anita Brick with CareerCast at Chicago Booth. Keep advancing.