Winning Through Negotiation

Anita Brick: Hi, this is Anita Brick, and welcome to CareerCast at Chicago Booth. To help you advance in your career. Today, we're delighted to be speaking to Tali Raphaely. Tali is the president and managing member of Armor Settlement Services, a nationally recognized real estate title firm that conducts thousands of real estate transactions nationwide annually. He is an author, and we're going to talk about your first book, The Complete Guide on How to Negotiate Today.

But your writing focuses on the Goshen business advice and providing motivation and inspiration to help each of us live a greater and more fulfilling life. Kelly, thank you so much for making the time today.

Tali Raphaely: Thank you and thank you for having me. It's a pleasure to be here with you.

Anita Brick: We had a lot of questions. It's going to give us a number of different things to talk about at a very basic level. What are a few key factors to think about before entering any kind of negotiation?

Tali Raphaely: The most important factors are always remembering about the human element you're negotiating with another person or people. You have to always remember that they have their own goals. They have their agenda. They have their experiences from the past that they bring to the table. You have to do your best to see things from their point of view. There's no way you're ever going to be able to work out anything with anyone if you can't see things from their perspective.

So you have to really not focus on yourself. Certainly. Of course you want to know what your goals are. You want to know what you're trying to get out of a negotiation. But the only way it's going to work is if you put yourself in their shoes, understand their wants, their needs, where they're coming from, why they want, what they want and why they need what they need.

And when you can do that, you can then talk in their language. You can help them even creatively come up with other solutions they may not have thought about for getting what they want and what they need. It's really important to be likable, to create connections with people, to foster an atmosphere of respect, communication, and not let things turn into confrontation.

Anita Brick: Oh, I totally agree. But how do you do this? Let's say you and I are entering a negotiation. Let's say you've offered me a job and I am really interested in the job. Maybe our goals and priorities are a little bit different. How do we create, as you say, a number of times in the book, a win-win situation if our aims are slightly different.

Tali Raphaely: First thing you have to do is you have to realize that you're not opposing each other. There's not a confrontation. It's not a contest. You're two people working together to work towards a common goal. And that common goal is, let's get this done. Let's negotiate this till we both come up with something that we both can live with and we're both happy with.

We're both going to make compromises. We're not necessarily going to get everything we want and need, but we're going to walk away happy, feeling like both parties gave in on certain things and both parties were reasonable. So the main thing is just creating that connection and understanding that that's a person on the other end that you're dealing with.

When you make that connection, it makes it a lot easier for you to deal with people. When you show that you're still a likable, normal person and you're not just out to get anybody, you're showing good faith. You're not trying to take advantage of anybody. And when you do that, the other party is going to take you more seriously.

They're going to be more open minded to you. They're going to give you the benefit of the doubt when you may say something or do something that may upset them. Very, very important to get that human element going. Course, both parties are going to have different goals. You can work together on the one common goal you have again, which is let's get this deal done.

Anita Brick: Got it. There were a number of questions around compensation negotiation. Here's a great question from an MBA student. We get this question all the time or variations of it. Many times in searches, prospective employers ask for your current comp or they want a range, but they don't tell you what their range is. And my concern is that either I will price myself out, or I'll hit a point too low where they would have been more than willing to pay me more. Given all that, how do you get around this when they insist on a number?

Tali Raphaely: If they do everything you can, everything in your power to never go first in any negotiation. When I say going first, I mean coming up with a number on your own. You have to really do everything you can for the other side. Come up with that number. Whether you're the employer employee, whether you're a buyer or seller. Doesn't matter. Anytime there's a negotiation.

Anita Brick: There's no negotiation at this point. It's at the very beginning. I'm saying, you know, I'm a potential employee. And now the person in HR that I'm talking to insists that they know what I'm thinking about.

Tali Raphaely: Absolutely. You're going to get that a lot when you're looking for a job. What you have to do is you have to try your best to turn your back around in a very deferential, polite and respectful manner. If you are in person, it's always going to be easier than if you're on the phone or if you're sending emails.

Let's assume you're in person. You've got to have a smile on your face. You have to be very polite. Do your best to divert from that question, and you do so in a friendly, engaging manner. Usually, believe it or not, seeing people be able to do this repeatedly. You make it not about what your past salary was or what your current salary is or what you're looking for.

You make it more about the fact that they're the employer. They have the budget. They have a history of paying people for this position. They're the ones who are in business. But at the end of the day, you're trying to deflect as best as you can. A lot of times you'll be able to do so. If not, you may be stuck in a situation where you have to answer it. And then if you do have to answer, I can certainly if you'd like for me to, I can certainly provide tips on how to answer it and then follow up so that you at least you can. They gate some of this thing that you have from having to answer that question.

Anita Brick: Okay. So before you do, I would like you to do that. But before you do, the way you described it, and no offense, it just seemed a little naive, especially in some industries, it could be viewed as you wouldn't fit into their culture because the level of humility went way beyond what would be acceptable in their organization. So how do you do that in a more aggressive environment, say, like banking or even some areas of consulting with the expectation that, you know, the deal, you know, that they're going to ask this question. You don't want to answer it, they don't want to answer it. But how do you do it in a way where you don't look naive or too self-effacing?

Tali Raphaely: It's tough , it's a fine line that you have to walk in those types of situations. You may be in a situation where you can find just based on the atmosphere of that environment, the atmosphere of the interview, that you may not be able to do this, you have to use your own senses as a guide. You might be in a setting where it's only going to work 5% of the time.

It still doesn't hurt to try, and that's a big point of my negotiating advice, is to get people. It never hurts to try. Always ask, always try. You'd never, ever, ever know. So in any event, let's assume that they laugh and they say, no. Come on buddy, we really need to know. That's okay. Then you tell them the truth and you say, I would be making dollars a year.

My current position. But honestly, it's not what I need to be making. I would like to be making more. I'm hoping that this position pays more. If you feel like you're in a place where you can make more money, if you're not even sure at all what the range is going to be, then you answer the question and you shut up.

You answer the question, and then you get quiet and you see what the response is. And then you look for the non-verbal cues. You also look for what they say. It's a great time for you to see what kind of salary they're thinking about. When you say that, and they look at you in disbelief and it looks like it's a big number and you could just see it from the reaction, now you know what you're getting yourself into.

If they don't even blink at all, and they seem like they just take that in stride now, you know, you're within range of maybe there's a lot more money there. So it's very important if you are going to give that number, really judge that person's reactions and see what happens next and see what they say. A lot of times they may not say anything, but sometimes they may say, okay, that's within range. And I can speak from experience. Anita, as an employer, that's often what I will do. I will let the person know whether it's within range or not, whether it's too much. I usually will answer with some sort of response to at least reward them for the fact that they gave me the answer.

Anita Brick: Got it. So there was a weekend student. I think you gave us some ideas of how you start, but he was saying he feels nervous, saying, I know what the outcome is that I'm looking for, but I get nervous about where to start and then I fumble. What would you suggest that I do when I want to negotiate? In addition to comp, maybe responsibilities and title?

Tali Raphaely: You always have to make the conversation about always bringing in the human element and you always have to ask questions. So never take anything at face value, never accept the first thing. So it's okay for you when you get an offer, when you hear numbers, when you hear terms, it's okay for you to say if the person's name is Sally.

Let's just say, for example, you can say something along the lines of Sally. Is any of that negotiable? Are any of those terms flexible? You haven't accepted an offer yet. So at this point you're not showing any weakness at all. You're just asking questions about the offer they just received. It'd be different if you said I would never, ever advise anybody to do that unless.

Anita Brick: Oh yeah, never never, never.

Tali Raphaely: Yeah. You've got to be willing and you have to have the confidence to ask questions. So many times people in negotiations or in these types of environments feel like they can't ask those questions, and that's why they get stuck with less than that. They want another human being just like you are. Ask the questions that you want to ask.

So instead of saying that's too little, I was hoping for more. I mean, you can't talk like that. You have to put yourself in their shoes, understand what kind of response you'd want if the situation were reversed, and then speak and act accordingly, or any of these terms possibly flexible to your showing the difference. You're showing respect, but you're opening the door now and you're opening up a conversation for possible negotiation. And then you see what happens from there.

Anita Brick: Got it. So there was an exact MBA student that said, I know I will be receiving an offer for a new job within the next few weeks, even though I have a clear walkway point, meaning total package. What the employer needs. I know that this employer super, super needs my skills, experience and my network. How do I enter the negotiation where I know I have the leverage so my potential employer doesn't feel squeezed upon and feels like he has a choice. I want them to feel good when the negotiation is over.

Tali Raphaely: Very good question. First, I would say, and this is very important to always remember, never, ever, ever be too overly confident in your position. The other side almost always can find options when they need to. So if you do come across as arrogant and too confident, they need you a lot more than you need them. You may start pushing them away, and you may start driving them into a corner where they feel like their back is against the wall, and they're going to have to start looking for somebody else.

They may not be their first choice, but they may not want to work with you anymore. First of all, in any negotiation, never feel too overconfident, ever. Because you never know the other side may have more options than you think, and you can remind yourself of situations in your life where you may have looked like you were desperate, but you still had it out.

You still had a plan B, it wasn't. Your plan A wasn't your first choice, but you had a choice. So first of all, always, always understand that they probably do have a choice one way or another. And then what you have to do is you have to be very nice. You get to be very cooperative. Get someone how you come across when you deal with them, you can be tough.

Interrogation as long as you show that politeness and respect and that cooperation. So it's going to be in how you speak with them. It's going to be not making demands, but instead making very polite requests, it's all in how you speak with people. That's going to say a lot about what kind of person you are. Answer the question.

Don't be too overconfident in your position. And number two, be very respectful whenever you're making any requests. Make sure the request and not demands. And if they're in the position that you think they're in, they're going to honor most of your requests. But you don't have to come across as making demands very, very important.

Anita Brick: It's a very important distinction, too. So there were a couple of questions of how you manage multiple offers. So one was from an evening student. He said, I've received two job offers and I'm actually interested in both of them. What is your advice on how to leverage the two offers to end up with the best outcome?

Tali Raphaely: I always say honesty's the best policy. So first of all, here I would be honest and I would let them know. The good news is you're creating competition. So as long as you don't overdo this and as long as you don't abuse this, this will obviously go to help you. Which you have to do is again, you can't seem arrogant, you can't seem too overconfident, but you have to almost make it seem to them like you need their help in trying to figure this out.

So you're forming an alliance with them. You're creating this sense of cooperation. You want to enlist them in helping you make the best choice for everyone. So you're going to bring up that you have another offer. You're not going to see who it is because that's not important. Don't give away any information about who made that offer to you, because if they're in the same industry, they may know each other and then they can compare notes.

You don't have to give too much information. You just give enough information to make them know that you do have another offer, and they'll have that in the back of their heads, and you're creating a sense of competition. If they like you and they like what you have to say, and they feel like you're a strong candidate, they don't want their competition hiring you because they can see that the competition will do a good job with you.

And before you know it, you're going to be helping the competition. So it's a good thing to create that competition among the two different employers. But you do it in a very respectful way. Once again, you don't come across as someone who's saying something along the lines of, well, they offered me this. Can you do it? You have to be careful.

You can say things along the lines of your offers. Great. I'm wondering if you could help me with this, as you know, or I think I was telling you before, I have this other offer that's similar, and they had offered A, B, C, is there any way that you guys would be willing to maybe do something along those lines as well, or you guys that were able to do something like that, you do it in a way you would get where you're making a request, you're not making demands, and you're coming off a store respectful, polite person.

But you're making it clear that there is another offer. You have more value when it seems like you're in demand, and that's just human nature. So if they feel like there's another offer out there, they're going to probably work a little faster at working things out with you, and they may be willing to offer you more than they would have originally.

Anita Brick: I would agree with you. People always seem more attractive if other people find them attractive.

Tali Raphaely: That's the thing that we always have to remember. Whenever there's a negotiation, you're dealing with people. There are human feelings and emotions that we all have. These are examples of the types of things that come up, and you have to be aware of those things. I just want to follow up on that last question. So you're doing two things when you're letting them know if there's another offer.

First, you're letting them know, hey, you got to really deal with me fairly because otherwise you may lose me. Second, you may also lose me to your competition. So remember that as well. So you're doing a lot of great things by letting them know, as long as you do it the right way.

Anita Brick: Got it? There's another question that is kind of like the one we just went over, but slightly different. This was from an executive MBA student and she said, I have one offer with a definite date on which it expires. I'm in the pre offer stage of interviews with another company and I prefer that role. How can I move the second into an offer at an accelerated pace, so that at least I know where I stand before accepting the first offer, especially if the second offer doesn't come through.

Tali Raphaely: Honesty's the best policy. Once again, as always, you let both companies know what's going on if and when you need to. Second, the company needs to know that you have another offer out there that has some sort of a deadline. So they need to act a little faster, but you don't put the pressure on them in a way where you're making demands.

Again, you're enlisting their help very, very important that you come across that way. So there's always pleases and thank you's and I appreciate it and I apologize for this or that. You have to always show that respect. Especially when you're dealing with a potential employer. So you make them aware of the fact that there's a deadline. Otherwise if you don't, you're losing the chance, number one, to show and demonstrate that you're wanted somewhere else.

So you're losing the creating competition. Leverage that you may have. That's number one. Number two, what's going to happen is as that deadline looms near, you're going to show more desperation with potential employer number two, because your deadline with number one is coming close. Number two is not going to know you have a deadline with number one. Number two is going to start thinking either that you're a pain in the butt or that you're too desperate or something's wrong with you.

But if instead you let number two know about number one, they now will understand why there's a pressure on your end. It's very important to keep the lines of communication open. And again, you're enlisting their help in helping make this the best choice for everybody. So that's how you do it. And you do it in a way where you're open about it.

But again, you don't share too much information. They don't need to know who it is. You don't need to give them all that information. But you certainly can let them know about the other deadline. And if they're interested in you, they'll move things up for you.

Anita Brick: You're absolutely right. I've seen that happen even in companies where you would absolutely not expect it. But you mentioned that there is always a possibility that you might be viewed as a pain. So there was a question from an alum and he said, I had a bad situation with a job offer in the past. I received an offer, but I negotiated back and forth and back and forth and back and forth to the point where the company said I was too much trouble to deal with, and they withdrew the offer. Going forward, what do you recommend that I do to balance being assertive, making strong, assertive requests without losing the offer?

Tali Raphaely: That's a great question. I'm really glad that somebody asked that because I have a lot to say about that. First of all, as I always say, put yourself in another person's shoes. When I say other person, it could obviously be another company as well. Put yourself in their shoes when you make all these demands and you're making all these requests and you keep coming back with more and more.

If you were on their end and somebody was doing that to you, how would you feel? Would you feel after the first couple times this was okay, but then after a while, is it going to start feeling like this person's asking for too much? You have to put yourself in their shoes and try to see how it would look if that was happening to you.

And if you say wow, that would really bother me, then stop because it would bother you. That is probably going to bother somebody else as well. We're all human. Then of the day. We all have a lot of similarities, so you have to do that. Number one, put yourself in their shoes. Try your best to see how it would feel if that was being done to you.

That's number one. Number two, don't be greedy. I say in my book, Pigs get fat, hogs get slaughtered. Don't be overly greedy because at some point people are going to say to themselves, this is not it's not worth it because he or she is asking for all these things and they keep coming back with more and more. We have even hired him or her yet.

What's going to happen once we hire that person and once this person has trade secrets, has confidential information, and has more experience with us? Is this person constantly going to be coming to us, asking for more money, asking for more benefits? This person here is just a recipe for disaster. So you're creating that feeling about you by continuing to come back with more and more.

I also want to say, and this is very, very important, I see this also as an employer when I hire people, when I negotiate with people for their salaries. But to go see vendors, I think the best advice is certainly get everything that you can, but at the end of the day, go in there, improve yourself, go in there and perform.

Anita Brick: Got it? There were two questions about challenges. A weekend student said, I'm more than ready for a bump in my compensation. My company went on an austerity program in 2009, and everyone took a 15% pay cut. Aside from cost of living adjustments, my compensation hasn't gone up. My performance is in the top 10% of my company. What negotiation strategies do you recommend to help me get a raise?

Tali Raphaely: I think the first thing to do is always remember, again, the human element. You're dealing with a person on the other end and they have wants and needs as well. Bring things up in a human nice, cooperative respective manner and you can never go wrong. So what you do is you ask to speak with your boss and you just bring it up in a casual way at first.

Don't go in there with all these demands. Don't go in there with an attitude because that's not going to work. All it's going to do is create confrontation for a beginning. So go in there with a nice attitude. Understand that your boss never wanted to give you a pay cut. That means the business is not good.

Your boss, that's the last thing your boss wants or your employer wants, is for business to not be good and to give you a pay cut. That's the last thing anybody wants to do. So understand that they're dealing with some problems on their end, and they wouldn't have done it if they weren't. You have to first bring it up, bring it up casually and see what reaction you get.

You may very quickly get a reaction to the effect of, you know, we can't do anything right now. Business sucks and we're losing money. So at least now you got your answer and now you know if you want more money, you may have to go somewhere else to get that, or you may get a very positive response. You may get something along the lines of, hey, I knew that you were going to be coming to us.

You're right. You are deserving of getting your money back or we're getting a raise. And here's what we can do. We can talk about it at such and such. At least now you've brought it up. So just get it out there, but do it in a very friendly, positive way and show empathy, show appreciation for the money that you are getting.

So appreciate that you still have your job because if they're doing pay cuts, that means they could have very well, easily have let you go and done some layoffs too. So show their appreciation. Don't come in there with a bad attitude, bringing up how you're making less money and don't make it about you. Make it about them and make it about all the things that you're doing to help the company. In a nutshell, bring it up. Don't be afraid to bring it up. You never know until you ask.

Anita Brick: Got it? Okay, a variation of that. This is with an executive MBA student and he said, I'm happy with my job. I receive excellent reviews. The problem is, well, I'm more than ready for a promotion. One hasn't been offered to me. I've chatted with my manager and he is open to it, but nothing has happened. What do you recommend that I do to nudge him along?

Tali Raphaely: If you've brought it up and your manager has at least said that he's open to it, you're more than halfway there. You're doing great. So now what you do is you've got to push a little harder. You've got to ask for a meeting, make it a little bit more formal. You could send an email, or you can pop into his office and you can ask, when would be a good time for us to talk, to continue the conversation we had about my pay, and you'll get an answer.

So you've got to push a little harder. The good news is you see that they're open to it. So you already know that there's a good possibility you're going to get it. So you've crossed that threshold, which is very important. So now you have to push a little bit. Don't do so in an annoying manner of course. And again still show that always show that politeness, show that respect and show their appreciation for what you have.

And be careful not to give anybody ultimatums, because if you're giving your employer an ultimatum and you start showing that if they don't, you don't get what you want, you're going to leave, then you gotta be careful because they may start looking for a replacement for you. You've got to know your position and your leverage, and you've got to really be unbiased with that.

If you have a lot of leverage and you feel like they really need you and you do a great job, then you could push a little harder. Again, do it in a very nice way, but ask for that meeting, make it a formal sit down meeting and then you can discuss it again.

Anita Brick: So it sounds like push, but do so respectfully.

Tali Raphaely: Absolutely.

Anita Brick: All right. And this is a very tricky situation. There's an album. His performance was good but not as good as the people in his promotion pool. So he's had a hard time getting promoted, he said. I recently met with H.R. And they've given me two options. I can stay at the company and keep applying for a promotion or I can leave.

My company is willing to work with me. I thought of two options: one, I could work part time for 2 to 3 months while looking for a job or two. I can give them a date in the next few weeks and ask to be paid. Maybe for a couple of months after that. I don't feel like I'm in a very good negotiating position. How could I strengthen that position? What strategies would you use to strengthen the position? If I know I'm going to leave either now or in two months?

Tali Raphaely: Well, first I would say always, always do your best to not quit a job or leave a job before you have another job lined up, because that's when people get themselves in trouble. You may think it's a good job market out there, but you may be in for a rude awakening when you're out there knocking on doors. What you think will maybe be a couple weeks can turn into a couple of months longer, and you have to make some desperate choices.

So do your best to stay with that job. First of all, if you know you're going to leave, stay in that job. Stay with that company until you have something else. That's number one. Number two, figure out why your performance is just good and not great, and why others in the promotion pool are going to have an easier time getting promoted.

Why is that too a real, honest self-assessment? Are you not bringing everything you can to the table? If not, start doing so? My best advice to this person is do a better job, work harder, show how valuable you are. That's going to go so far in your negotiation. So if you're only doing a halfway decent job, work harder.

Show how valuable you are. Put yourself in their shoes. This person, unfortunately, is really making it all about him or her, or they're not really seeing it from an employer's perspective. They're asking for a promotion. They're out even though they know they're not really doing the best job. They're asking for some sort of severance package or have the employer work things out for them.

But why would the employer do that? You have to realize that you have to put yourself in their shoes. What are you doing for them? You have to demonstrate value. So get in there and start helping the company more. And before you know it, the promotion you want will probably be there and then come talk to me and I'll help you negotiate that promotion.

Anita Brick: There you go. Even as this person leaves his demonstration of thinking from their point of view, really adding more value could benefit him even if he decides to leave.

Tali Raphaely: Absolutely. Because this is a life thing, with all these answers and all these guidelines, this is how you live your life. You have to look at things from another person's point of view. You have to see how people see it from their perspective. Very, very important. Always give it your all. If this person is not giving it their all, that person has to take a look in the mirror and ask themselves, is this what I do in the rest of my life?

Is this how I come across? Is this how I appear? Or is there just something with this position here in this company that's not allowing me to realize my full potential, but you have to really take that hard look in the mirror and you have to fix those things. You have to really demonstrate your value. And certainly, yes, you have to understand that people are not going to see it the way you want them to see it. They're going to see it how they see it and the way they see it is, what is this person doing for our company? Why should we promote this person over somebody else?

Anita Brick: That makes a lot of sense. Do you have time for two more questions?

Tali Raphaely: Absolutely.

Anita Brick: Okay. So one and this is really different because there's no money involved here. So an alumni asks the question: how do you negotiate in situations where there is no exchange of money nor equity? More specifically, how do you negotiate effectively with unpaid interns in a bootstrapped entrepreneurial company while still trying to keep them motivated and happy?

Tali Raphaely: It's a great question. I've been in that situation because I've hired interns many, many times for my companies. Sometimes money is not the most important thing. A lot of times money is not the most important thing, especially when you're dealing with interns who are trying to get experience more valuable than any money you can pay. This person is showing them a compelling future, showing that they can learn skills from you, showing them that you will foster an environment where they create a connection with you, or you'll be loyal to them and teach them things.

They want that more than anything else at this point. They want to learn. They want to make new contacts. They're young and getting started in their career. So show those things and then don't just show them the beginning, but continue to do those things. When you're hiring interns or really when you're hiring anybody for that matter. As an employer, you have a responsibility to your employees, not only to pay them and not only to make sure they're safe at work, but to make sure that you're providing them guidance, support and helping them grow as people and as professionals.

So when you show an intern that you're working towards making them a better person, helping them become a better person, helping them develop their business skills or communication skills, and you take them with you to meetings and events and what have you. And you show them why their emails could be improved and why this could be done better.

You nurture that person. That person will want to work for you forever. Give them that experience that they need. Again, look at it from their point of view. They're not just free workers. You can't look at it like that. It's not just free labor. Don't look at it from your point of view. What does this person need?

Anita Brick: You're absolutely right. And I love the idea that maybe you can't pay them, that maybe you take them to an event where they'll get exposure, or they'll get an opportunity to test out their interpersonal skills, build their network. I think that's a brilliant idea, a brilliant idea.

Tali Raphaely: Take that serious responsibility of helping somebody who's getting started and they'll appreciate it. And that will keep them motivated and happy for sure.

Anita Brick: Great answer. Great answer. So finally, there was so much in your book. I mean, it's a small book, but it was packed with very actionable items and it really gives the reader a lot of things that, yeah, maybe, you know, but you put it in very practical, actionable terms, both from both sides, a potential employee and the employer. But if you are going to boil this down into your top three things that someone contemplating in negotiation should keep top of mind, what would those three things be?

Tali Raphaely: Connection. Being likable, I think, and listening create that connection with people. People do business with people they like. People hire people they like. Connection is very important. Being likable, so, so important and listening. You have to listen to people. When you listen to someone, you're demonstrating to that person, hey, your time is as valuable as mine.

Anita Brick: Always the human element. And one thing about when you were talking about listening in the book, you said if you are listening, that means that you are able to gather more information, and in the process you'll learn things. And in the process, the other person may tell you things that they hadn't intended, which could help your strategy and your negotiation. Kelly, thank you so much. Great advice today. Wonderful advice in the book, and I know you're super busy. So thank you very, very much for making the time.

Tali Raphaely: To welcome me. It's been my pleasure. It's been great speaking with you. And I thank you for your time as well.

Anita Brick: Great. Thanks again and thank you all for listening. This is Anita Brick with CareerCast at Chicago Booth. Keep advancing.