Whoever Tells the Best Career Story Wins

Anita Brick: Hi, this is Anita Brick, and welcome to CareerCast at Chicago Booth, to help you advance in your career. Today we're delighted to be speaking with Sam Horn. And Sam is an award-winning communication and creativity consultant who has a 20-year track record of results with an international clientele including Fortune 500 Forum, the Young Presidents Organization, Hewlett-Packard, KPMG, Boeing, Intel, Capital One, and many more.

She was selected—and this was pretty awesome, Sam—along with Tom Peters, Seth Godin, Tim Ferris, and Michael Gerber, to be a featured speaker at Inc. magazine's annual convention for the top 5,000 entrepreneurs in the country. She's the author of several books, actually, but today we're going to focus on POP! Stand Out in Any Crowd, and we're going to really talk about stories.

So welcome, by the way, and it seems like a lot of students and alumni at Booth feel challenged about telling their transitional stories. Maybe we could start off with, where does someone start?

Sam Horn: Well, here's the good news, Anita. I suggest we start with a story in the first two minutes of an interview and the reason is, is because many people who are conducting the interviews, they've done hundreds, if not thousands of them, and most of them sound like blah, blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah.

Anita Brick: I guess after a while it would be. But how do you, as the interviewee, even begin to craft that story?

Sam Horn: Well, here's what you do: you use these two most powerful words in any interview: “for example.” And then you use these five quick tips. So I hope that people who are listening to this are taking notes, because we are not going to waste time on ivory tower theories that don't have any relevance in the real world. We're going to talk about real-life ideas they can use on their next application in their next interview story.

S is for “single scene.” We need to make sure that this is not what Barbara Kingsolver says is a “and then and then and then” story. It happens in one scene. So it's in a boardroom, it's in a staff meeting, or it is with a client. So it's got to be a single scene.

T: it's got to have a “tell 'em back and forth” dialogue—”he said, she said, or I thought”—because that is when we make the story come alive, as if people are experiencing it right now. Oh, we open up all the senses. And by the way, I'm going to give an example of this. We open up all the senses so it's both right and left brain, and so that it's high order and bottom line.

So we talk about what it looked like, not just “Someone came up to me.” You know, this was after a two-hour conference breakout session. And this person came up and their hair was wild.

R is for relevant revelations. Bill Bernbach, who's an ad genius, said dullness will not sell your product; neither will irrelevant brilliance. So see, we always make a revelation that is relevant to this particular organization or company.

And then Y is for “you” questions. We always end our story by segueing back to the interviewer. Perhaps you're wondering about how this would relate to your team, or perhaps you're thinking, OK, now how would this play out in our company so that we are immediately making it relevant and timely for them? Want an example of how this works?

Anita Brick: Oh, absolutely.

Sam Horn: Well, great. And this is a personal example because my son Andrew Horn just graduated from Virginia Tech a few months ago. So, like many of your students and graduates of University of Chicago Business School, he was making the interview rounds. We came up with a money phrase, and we're going to tell your listeners in a moment how to come up with their own money phrase, and then you wrap a story around it using those five story elements.

For example, the phrase we came up for Andrew was start to finish when they said, we have 50 people applying for this position. Why should we hire you? Andrew said, you can trust me to put me in charge of a project and for me to manage it start to finish. For example, just last summer I was given 10 days’ notice to put together a program for an international youth conference.

I Googled the largest disabled athlete organization in Southern California, called them up. I asked if they'd like to put on an exhibit. They said, sure, but you have to find some basketball standards. So I Googled the local high school, asked them if they'd be able to donate their basketball standards for the day. They said, sure, but you're going to have to find out a way to get to them.

So I Googled them.

Anita Brick: The same …

Sam Horn: Yes, and then 10 days later, there were 200 young people and 20 nationally competitive disabled athletes in their wheelchairs under the San Diego sun, all saying this was one of the best, most life-changing events they had ever participated in. So do you see, we don't just make a claim. We don't just say that we have people skills.

We don't just say that we have a grasp of the latest economic trends. We say “for example,” and then we put them in the room with a story that shows them that we can pull it off rather than making an empty claim.

Anita Brick: And there was lots of emotion around it, too. It wasn't just “I did this, and then I did this and I did this.” You were really engaging the interviewer in that dialogue. You could feel being there.

Sam Horn: I tell you, Anita, I am so glad you're saying that. And I'm reaching out to everyone who's listening into this, is that we all know that times are tough right now. There's a lot of competition for jobs, right? So often when we go in for this interview, that angst, that tension is very evident and it's very off-putting because there is an emotional element when we're hiring someone, and on paper, our credentials all look alike.

So in the bottom line, often they're going to hire not just the most impressive person on paper, they're going to hire the person they connected with that demonstrated that passion, that demonstrated something Arthur Rubinstein said. He said, I have found that if you love life, life will love you back. If in an interview we can transmit that we love this particular profession or that we love this particular aspect of a job, then the potential employer is more likely to love us back.

Anita Brick: That's a good point. So how do you find sort of that essence or a theme? Some of the questions that I had sent to you that were submitted by students and alums, like they have lots of different experiences. How do you zero in on the essence and theme that's actually going to be important to you and relevant to your audience?

Sam Horn: Well, Anita, once again, I'm so glad you're bringing this up and I hope that our listeners have paper in front of them. I'm going to give you a system so that you can craft responses to an interviewer that are so uncommon that it really makes their eyebrows go up, because George Washington Carver said, when you can do a common thing in an uncommon way, you will command the attention of the world.

So, see, we want to command the attention of the interviewer and be uncommon. Here are four ways you can do that.

Anita Brick: OK, great.

Sam Horn: On a piece of paper please. Divide it up into four columns. And then at the top of each column put A. So it's A in the first column, A in the second column, A in the third column, A in the fourth column. We are going to identify signature events that are unique to you, that you can craft in the stories that showcase your strengths.

The first A is for adversity. All right. I'm asking all of our listeners, what are some challenges that you've overcome? Maybe you were fired from a job and you didn't deserve it. Maybe you did have a health scare. You know, maybe a hurricane took away your house. Maybe something happened … I'll give you a quick example and then we'll talk about the other … will show your listeners how to use that story in an interview.

I have a client named Lana Kim who came from Russia with $1 in her pocket. She ended up teaching herself English at the San Francisco Zoo. She went on to become a Paine Webber Hall of Fame stockbroker. Now, her whole life is about overcoming obstacles. However, in an interview, we don't try to tell everybody everything that happened to us.

We pick one story that showcases how, when things were really tough that we got going, that we persevered through that challenge instead of giving up. So that's one way you can identify some adversity and then segue into how, in this upcoming job, when you encounter challenges that instead of withdrawing or retreating, that you will rise to the challenge and they can count on you to carry it off.

OK. So ready for another “A”? OK, “A” is achievement. I had another client. Her name was Teresa Godfrey. Now she had actually finished the Ironman triathlon. And now … are you an athlete by any chance, Anita?

Anita Brick: I am very active, but I'm not a competitive athlete. I don't run marathons or anything like that.

Sam Horn: I'm going to guess that some of our listeners have finished marathons or 10Ks or I'm sure they've gone back and they've gotten their pilot's license when they were 30 or 40 years old or something like that. I want you to ask yourself, what is an achievement that you're proud of? Because when I asked her why she was not mentioning that in her interviews, she said that it seemed like it was boasting or bragging.

Well, in an interview, they cannot read our mind and they are judging us on the achievements that we're bringing to the table. It's not boasting or bragging that we've done it, even if it was a while back. The fact is, we did prepare for that 2.4-mile swim, that 100-mile bike ride, that 46-mile run.

And so it's not a stand-alone event. It shows that we have perseverance. It shows that we can be self-motivated. It shows that we have discipline, you know, to keep going when we want to give up. So you go ahead and share a less than two minutes story about that. And then once again, you segue back with a new question about how that will translate into on-the-job performance for this particular organization.

Anita Brick: Right.

Sam Horn: And then the third “A,” OK, is avocation. What do you do when you're not working? You know, I mean, maybe you ballroom dance or maybe you're a photographer. I had a client who played golf. In fact, she was actually the spokesperson for American Express. And if you went on their website, there was Jan Holman dispensing advice on how to make money and save money and invest and so forth.

Now, the thing is, there are a lot of people with economic expertise. So do you see, she is still one of many. We don't want to be one of many. We want to be one of a kind. So see, that's why you dip into these As to find out something that makes you unique. Because now you have a fresh approach to a familiar interview.

I talked about golf and we started listing all the terms you use when you're talking about golf. You know, there's the tee and there's the fairway and there's the woods and there's the green. Wait a minute. Money. Green … money … green. Her money phrase became “go for the green.” And in her interview and in her speaking and writing, she identified 18 ways to go for the green.

Anita Brick: Wow.

Sam Horn: Now, do you see how you could be interviewing several dozen people and no one is going to have that original, innovative, distinctive approach that makes her one of a kind instead of one of many?

Anita Brick: How do you avoid having that go for the green be viewed as either cliche or corny? How do you create that money phrase so that it's taken seriously?

Sam Horn: Oh great question, because as Samuel Goldwyn said, we want to avoid cliches like the plague. So you are so right that we don't want to come off as cheesy or cutesy, especially if this is a multimillion-dollar company and this is a six- or seven-figure position. It's very important for us to come in with the level of sophistication that is commensurate with that position.

So we anticipate and we neutralize objections. We read their mind and if they're thinking, well, oh, that's cute. So what? Guess what we say. You may be thinking, that's cute. So what? Well, here's “so what”—you know, here are six specific suggestions that we can put into practice today in order to go for the green and generate more revenue in the next quarter of this year.

Do you see how you just segued right into a very bottom-line, pragmatic payoff, so that it's not just cutesy rhetoric?

Anita Brick: Got it. So what's the fourth A?

Sam Horn: The fourth one? And once again, I hope people are writing these down. It's attitude. And I would ask you, what are your non-negotiables? What are your lessons that you have learned in your five or 10 or more years in the business world, or in this particular profession or industry? You know, what are things that are rock-solid certainties for you?

Then, how can you include those in your interview? And I'll give you a quick example. A gentleman named Scott Helford was interviewing for a position. And when I asked him, you know, what are your certainties? He wasn't really coming up with anything. So we switched gears. I said, OK, what is something people commonly believe that you disagree with? Where does the emperor have no clothes that there's some fact in your profession that you take exception to?

And he thought about it for a moment. He said, you know, what really bothers me is when people say there's no shortcut to success. He said, of course there are shortcuts to success. A coach is a shortcut to peak performance. You know, a teacher is a shortcut to learning. A BlackBerry is a shortcut to communication. Well, not only did he get that job because he talked about how he was going to be a shortcut to making every customer a return customer, he turned that into a book that's coming out from Wiley this month, matter of fact.

So that's the power of coming up with a phrase that, once again, doesn't blend in with what everyone else is saying. It breaks out.

Anita Brick: OK, well, that's good. And from the questions that were submitted, you could definitely feel that this is a struggling time. I mean, people are feeling challenged. And so things that might have been little glitches or obstacles seem to be much bigger. I'd like to post a couple of questions that came from some of our students and alumni. One of the alums said that either his or her most powerful experience was an entry-level job, and he's kind of surpassed that now. How do you draw people to the past to show the relevancy, rather than having them only look at what you most recently did?

Sam Horn: A particular point that is actually one of the other most important points we're going to say today in an interview, please remember something my high school debate coach told me. He said our expertise is perceived by the organization of our thoughts.

Anita Brick: Wow. OK.

Sam Horn: So please—everyone listening, make a note to enumerate your points. Number your points. So when the question is something like, well, can you tell us a little bit about your background and how that might relate to this position that you're applying for? Instead of saying, well, I worked here and I did this, and then I worked there and I did that—say, well, in reviewing my previous job experience, there are three positions that I think gave me an opportunity to gather expertise that would contribute to this position.

The first position was this, the second was this, and then the third. And if we anticipate an objection, we neutralize the objection with just one word by saying, ironically, it was my entry position 10 years ago that taught me one of the most valuable lessons, which was to remember people's names. What we found is that by making the effort to remember people's names, it lets them know that whether they are an employee in the office or one of our VIP customers, that they are valuable enough for us to extend ourselves and call them by a name instead of them being a number.

Anita Brick: Great point. The “ironically,” again, it shifts the person and does exactly what he or she needs to do by saying, wait a minute, I've told you all this, but being here is really what's most important. That's great. Another alum did something that in his company was a huge revelation, but on the surface would look really commonplace.

How would you take something that the business community would view as commonplace and show that it was a really big breakthrough in your organization and have them see it as special?

Sam Horn: This is—and once again, I hope people write this down because I'm sure that … they're at the University of Chicago. You are teaching negotiation skills, and everyone in negotiation understands that the way to neutralize an objection is to anticipate it and voice it first. By the way, Ronald Reagan was wonderful at this. You know, if he was going to propose something that would cost money, he would say, I understand that you're concerned about the money that is involved.

And do you see how by bringing it up first, it actually uncrosses those mental arms and gets people to at least give our idea a chance. So if this individual says it's interesting that although this revelation seems commonplace today, it was actually rather extraordinary at the time. And so, you see, we just say out loud what they're thinking. It's no longer an objection.

Anita Brick: So the other aspect of this question, it sounds like this person goes off on tangents and kind of forgets the points that he wanted to make. Is there anything, especially if you're sitting with someone—obviously, if it's a phone interview, you can kind of scope it out. And how do you create the structure so that you don't get lost in your own story?

Sam Horn: I am so glad you brought this up, because I'll make a point and then share a quick story. I said the theme of our interview today is to take notes, and I can't tell you how many people I've advised to take a notebook with them into an interview. And they look at me horrified, as if that's offensive or something.

And I believe it is just the opposite. I believe that when an interviewer is giving us complex information about a position that we might be moving into, or about the history of the organization, that taking notes lets them know that we're taking them seriously, because we can refer to these notes in the future. So it's not just going in one ear and out the other. Furthermore, we can then refer to those notes, which honors what they've said and shows that we've got it, and that we can apply it on the job.

One other thing in an interview, people often say, where do I look? You know, I mean, it's like eye to eye combat, you can't turn it into a staring contest or something. But if I look away, it looks like I'm shifty. Like they can't trust me. The beautiful thing about taking notes is that it allows you to maintain eye contact and make legitimate, meaningful breaks to make a note of something important they said, which you bring back up later in the interview, and it gives you something else to do with your eyes rather than it turning into a staring contest.

So want a quick story about this, by the way? Now I get to tell a story about my other son—I’ve got to give equal duty, right?—who also graduated from Virginia Tech, and he had a degree in physics, astronomy, math, and aerospace engineering. So the Monday after graduating, he was flown to Houston and he had lunch with astronauts on Tuesday and was actually hired on Wednesday.

And Tom attributes it to something he did on Monday. I said, Tom, the first thing you do is when you land in Houston, you go and you buy a notebook so that you can take it with you to the interview. So no sooner did he arrive at Johnson Space Center and the personnel administrator met him and was going to squire him around for a day of interviews … the first thing she said was, the first thing we've got to do is get you a notebook.

And he said, “I've got one.” And you could just tell that she was favorably impressed because it was like he came prepared. So believe me, if you take notes, not only can you bullet or number the points that you want to bring up so you don't have to worry about your mind going blank and forgetting what you wanted to say; it is a very tangible tool for honoring the interviewer and referring to what they've said, which lets them know that you are listening and that you are imprinting what it is that they have to bring up.

Anita Brick: A good point. A Weekend MBA student, actually, who has a lot of years of experience on the technical side—engineering, IT, consulting in transportation and telecom and insurance—and really wants to flip over to cleantech. He's been getting good feedback. You know, they like his technical background. They like the fact that he's getting an MBA from Chicago Booth and all of that.

How does he flip over from this past experience into cleantech to, number one, show that it's not just the hot new thing, the next internet, that he's serious about it—and that his skills really are transferable?

Sam Horn: Well, what a great question. And this is a great opportunity to bring up something that I guess you could tell by now that I'm partial to, and that's using quotes. The reason why I believe we can use a quote is because it really does turn rhetoric into something that's real life and interesting.

For example, if he were just going to say this is like, well, I was working in that industry, but now I've decided to move into this, it's just wall-to-wall rhetoric. It's just going to blend in. If he quotes RFK, who said progress is a nice word and change is its motivator, and then just as a jazz piano player will riff off chords in order to make new music, you riff off a quote. You use a couple of the key words to dovetail into your point to give it added impact.

So you could say, I believe in progressing. Throughout my career, I have always looked for new opportunities for new positions so that I could contribute on a larger scale. I've thoroughly enjoyed working in that industry and was able to accomplish this, this, this. I agree with, you know, Robert Kennedy who said this. I am ready to progress into the next stage of my career, and that requires making a change.

This new career field offers an opportunity to— And you see how it all blends in like that.

Anita Brick: Choosing the right quote is really important because it needs to sound like it's your quote—that if Robert Kennedy hadn't said it, you would have said it.

Sam Horn: That's true. Although, see, I really do believe in quotes. We could talk about almost anything, Anita, and I would have a quote for it.

Anita Brick: I got that. I mean, yeah, that's really clear. I mean, but how do you, again, make it seem authentic as opposed to, well, this seems like an interesting quote. I think I'll slap it in here.

Sam Horn: Well, and I'm so glad you're saying that, because if we don't tie it in, people are going, well, what the heck does that have to do with anything? Then we have not accomplished our purpose. So here are two answers to your question. The first is people are always asking where can I find meaningful, relevant current quotes?

Well, check out this website: ThinkExist.com. It has current quotes pulled right from the Wall Street Journal, pulled from Investor’s Business Daily so that we're not just quoting Aristotle or Robert Kennedy. That's one way to find meaningful quotes.

And then the second way to make sure that it really is relevant to what it is you're saying in the interview, is to take a couple of the keywords of the quote and then use it in your follow-up statement. So that you really are tying it in in a way that flows and follows.

Anita Brick: So what if you're trying to overcome something so that there are few questions around that? One person, an Executive MBA student, wanted to know, well, how do you talk about being fired from a job? Another person asked the question, how do you let people know you left your company because they were unethical without sounding like you're badmouthing them?

So how do you take a situation that might be an obstacle and not allow it to derail the interview?

Sam Horn: This is an important point, because more and more people are being laid off or are having to leave companies in unfortunate circumstances. So let's just have a rule of thumb that we have absolute clarity about. And it comes from that oracle Oprah. And I do know this is the University of Chicago Business School, so we have a diversity of quotes, right?

Anita Brick: Right. There you go.

Sam Horn: Oprah said anyone who gossips to you will gossip about you.

Anita Brick: Yeah. No kidding.

Sam Horn: So see, just have absolute clarity that we will never say anything negative about a previous employer or organization, even when it's deserved; even when we anticipate that the interviewer could agree with us, Because it only reflects poorly on us, and that interviewer will be thinking, if she's saying this about them, what would she be saying about me?

So we just don't go there. Now, how about if it comes up in a specific question, can we handle it graciously, diplomatically, and move forward? I love the saying “I learned a lot.” You know, I learned a lot from working for that organization. And one of the things that I learned was how important it is for me to work for an organization that's operating with integrity; that I feel is contributing, you know, on a larger scale, and that really honors the employees.

And that's one of the reasons why I'm so … see, you just segue about a lesson learned from that. And then you segue right into that’s why you're excited about working for this particular organization, because that's the reputation, or why you're looking forward to this opportunity to be considered for this company, because they're renowned throughout the profession for having those values.

Anita Brick: And then what about getting fired? I mean, the getting fired piece is very challenging, especially today. An interviewer could perceive that as increasing your risk as a candidate.

Sam Horn: Let's not pull a Pollyanna here. I think that there are times when we just fess up, when we did not handle things the way we wish we had, and that in retrospect, we could have done things differently. And I think the honesty and the integrity that comes from absolute fessing up from saying that I was let go from that position.

And when I look back and when I examine what happened, I would have handled things differently. And I know better now or what I took away from that experience was the importance of this. And, I only make a mistake once. I am determined to use that experience to make me a stronger employee, and to make me a better leader, and to make me a more effective and efficient team player.

Anita Brick: But a couple other nuances in terms of overcoming a perceived obstacle. One of the alums had gone off and started his own business venture. He did about six months of due diligence, decided not to do that, and is now doing a job search that looks at startups. There's not a lot of activity there, so looking at large publicly traded companies, what he's noticing is that the large companies are not resonating with his story because they see the last year now as one of being more in the startup entrepreneurial area.

Any recommendations about how to bridge that perceptual gap?

Sam Horn: And that's a good question. Once again, and I think almost any time we can bridge a gap of understanding is once again to voice their concerns, which means that we understand them and we are addressing them. So if they've got their mental arms crossed because you're thinking, you know, we're a very large corporation and all of your background is in, you know, your own startup or your entrepreneurial field, then we say, you know, you may have some concerns about how I would be able to adapt my entrepreneurial experience into the corporate arena.

Well, here are three ways that I think that I can bring an entrepreneurial spirit and remain loyal within the organization. You know, the first way is resourcefulness. Entrepreneurs only have themselves to get up in the morning and to make things happen. I think that also is important in the corporate arena, is that you want to make sure that the person in this position can walk in, and without a lot of supervision or guidance or prodding, can be counted on to have that type of initiative and resourcefulness.

Anita Brick: What about a time gap? There is an Evening student who left a job in August of ’07, and he was going to travel for a while and ended up having a bad fracture, which took another six months. And now we're approaching nine months, almost a year. And during the six months he did some trading, but in September, when the market imploded, he got back into the job search process and now is embarrassed about the gap and not really sure how to explain it.

Sam Horn: I'm glad that this is coming up, because any time we're embarrassed about something, that discomfort shows and it really does undermine the trust that someone has in us because they think there's something going on here, they’re not sure what it is, and it's hard for them to put faith in us to come into a position when they feel that there's some hidden agenda that's not being revealed.

Honesty is a good policy as long as it is crafted in a way so that it showcases us in a favorable way. So here's the power of a quote. If someone has taken that time off to travel, then I would use Colette's quote and Colette said, “I've had a wonderful life. I only wish I had realized it sooner.”

Anita Brick: OK, so I'm not sure I get it. How does that apply?

Sam Horn: Well, because see, we haven't segued yet, so I'm …

Anita Brick: Sorry, I jumped ahead. Sorry.

Sam Horn: No. That's OK, and thank you for showing that a quote on its own will not tie in unless we riff off a couple of the key words and then relate it to this particular interview or open position. So we say, you know what? 12 months ago, I realized that I was young and healthy and that I wanted to go out and travel and see the world while I could.

So I've taken a year off. I had an opportunity to go to Europe. I've had an opportunity, … and then once again, if you can, a single thing. So whether it was what it was like to see daybreak at the Taj Mahal, what it was like to go rafting down the Colorado, whatever it was—to get one story and then to come back and say, I will always be grateful that I took that time off to have a wonderful experience and to see the world.

And now I'm ready to go back to work. I am bringing renewed energy. I am bringing a renewed international perspective of how I can—so say it, and then once again, figure out how that is going to add value to your new employer.

Anita Brick: OK, do we have time for just a few more questions?

Sam Horn: You bet.

Anita Brick: We do. Oh, excellent. OK, so a student asked the question. I work in finance and have been in my company for about five years. I've rotated through three assignments, all in finance, in different areas, have performed well and been promoted. My current role is not a traditional finance role. How do I communicate to a hiring manager for the next role that this role, although not traditional, is actually highly valued?

Sam Horn: We can talk about Obama at this point. Obviously, the proud Chicago son here, is that he is talking about the value of having diversity on his team. He is deliberately not only getting “yes” people who agree with his points of view. He is not only getting people with specific experience to that position; he is deliberately bringing in people from different fields, from different industries, from different backgrounds, so that he has an eclectic team, because he knows that that's going to be the higher-performing team that doesn't have that polarity.

So I think that when we reference something that's in the headlines, when we reference something that's current and topical, the good news is that we can make the point that our diverse background is going to once again add to the mix, instead of just being one note.

Anita Brick: That's a very good point, because that different perspective could actually provide ideas and practical solutions that no one else would have thought of had they not had that nontraditional experience.

Sam Horn: That's right. In fact, we use two of the most powerful words from Tongue Fu. If the interviewer says, I'm looking over your background and I can see that this is not a traditional finance role, and I'm wondering how this is going to be to our advantage, to bring you in. You say these two words: “You're right.” Because do you see how we don't argue with them?

We agree with them. We acknowledge what they're saying. We bridge with the word and we don't say, “well, you're right, but”—because, of course, but is an argumentative word. If we say, Well, I hear what you're saying, but … you know, I get your point. But do you see how we're putting ourselves on opposite sides of the issue?

Anita Brick: Oh, absolutely. Yes. And Tongue Fu, by the way, is both a program and a book that Sam created.

Sam Horn: You bet. And what is Tongue Fu? It is how we can communicate with people so we prevent conflicts and produce cooperation. So it looks like we're on opposite sides of an issue here and we are adversaries on this point. No, we're not. When we say “You're right, I don't have the traditional background in this area, and I actually see that is working to our advantage because it's going to produce, you know, a diverse, eclectic collection of talents in this organization that are going to ….”

And off you go.

Anita Brick: There you go. That's great. So two final questions. There was an alum, actually, who participated in a workshop we did over the last month, and he said the same thing came up when he was sharing his story in the workshop. He has had a long career, 15, 20 years in a particular profession. He clearly wants to transition out, but he seems stuck in his own story and so other people get stuck with him.

So his question is, what can he do to leave people with the impression that he wants to make this transition, rather than they're saying, oh, you are, you know, a fill-in-the-blank guy no matter what he says. At least that is his perception that people come back and even his team members in his small group said the same thing to him.

So how do you tell a new story when others really see your past, and maybe you're stuck in the past too?

Sam Horn: This is kind of a collection of everything we've said so far, which is that if people are persisting in perceiving us a certain way, we don't argue with them, because all of a sudden now we're turning what could be allies into enemies. So we embrace their point of view instead of trying to dismiss it or denigrate it. We say, it's flattering to me, or it's an honor to me, or I appreciate that you see me as the go-to person in this area, or that you think of me as the project guy, or that you perceive me as the money guy.

And I put a lot of years into producing just that conclusion so that people could count on me to deliver that. And the good news is, in addition to those particular talents, I am now moving into this area where I'm able to use all of the skills and the talents and the experiences I had in that area to apply to this area.

So you see, we don't argue with them about it. We agree. We appreciate that they're giving us credit for that, and then we bring them with us as we transition into this new area where we get to apply all of that and add even more value in a new field.

Anita Brick: Great point. I know you've given us a whole wealth of knowledge and wisdom. Is there anything else? Any other advice you would give someone who is working to build a really good career transitional story in a time when the market is not receptive to nontraditional and different?

Sam Horn: Anita. That's a hit-it-out-of-the-ballpark question.

Anita Brick: OK, there you go. Go for it.

Sam Horn: See, I am so glad because I have two things. And one of them is exactly what you just said. Any good interviewer, which you certainly are, at the end of the interview, will throw it across the middle of the plate for us.

And if we're good, we will hit it out of the park, because almost any interviewer will say toward the end of the interview, is there anything you would like to ask? I have a friend who is the personnel director for the Prince Hotels in Hawaii, and she said, Sam, you would be shocked to know that nine out of 10 people kind of look around for a moment and they say, no, can't think of anything, which shows an alarming lack of initiative or interest or real caring about wanting to prove that we would be the right person for this job.

So in an interview, here's one thing I suggest you do when hopefully that interviewer gives you that pitch right across the middle of the plate: bring up something about your personal characteristics and attributes, because, once again, on paper we may have similar degrees—although of course, University of Chicago Booth, you know, is going to be number-one-rated school in the world, so that's going to give you a leg up.

However, job experience, education, those things can look similar on paper. So here's where you say, I am so glad you brought that up. And yes, there are some personal qualities and attributes that I would like to introduce as a reason that I would be the ideal candidate for the job, even though I know you're interviewing dozens.

Number one is that I'm a zero prima donna factor. You know, a friend told me that 65 percent of all personnel problems are around personality. You can count on me to get along with my fellow employees. You know you can count on me to keep my commitments. If I tell you that I'm going to do something, you can trust that you can count, that I'm going to be … and see, you talk about the personal characteristics, not just the left-brain, logical accumulation of credits on a resume.

Anita Brick: Good point, good point. Anything else?

Sam Horn: Oh, boy. Yep. We're going to follow Art Buchwald's advice.

Anita Brick: OK.

Sam Horn: Art Buchwald said, “I learned at an early age that when I made people laugh, they liked me,” he said. “This is a lesson I will never forget.” And Anita, you and I talked before our interview today about the angst that many people are displaying in their interviews. Because some people are desperate for a job. They do know that the economy's tough, they do know there's a lot of competition, and yet if we walk into an interview and we take ourselves way too seriously, that does not warm an employer to us.

I'm really reaching out to everyone on the call, and this is what we say, is to anticipate what you're sensitive about, because if you're sensitive about your age, you're going to hear about it. If you're sensitive about being the only woman in the room, you're going to hear about it. So you can be tongue-tied and tongue-twisted, or you can come up with a comeback.

And believe me, if you handle it with aplomb rather than panic, people are going to respect you. And I really have found it is—one of the keys to clout is to be able to keep a sense of humor, which helps you keep perspective, and it really does favorably impress other people.

Anita Brick: That's great, and thank you. Really appreciate it a lot.

Sam Horn: You're welcome. I've thoroughly enjoyed this, but can I tell one last story?

Anita Brick: Absolutely, go for it.

Sam Horn: Well, Yogi Berra is being interviewed by the New York paper, and he's carrying on about this rookie who really had a great year. And the reporter said, well, gee, that's kind of impressive. He said, would you say this rookie has exceeded your expectations? And Yogi looked at him and thought about it for a moment. He said, well, yeah, I'd say he's done more than that.

Anita Brick: OK, there you go.

Sam Horn: So I hope our interview has exceeded our listeners’ expectations. And most importantly, I hope that before they go into their next interview, they look at that story, you know, single scene, tell it and back and forth, dialogue, open up all the senses, make sure those revelations are relevant, and use questions. Use some appropriate humor. Anticipate and neutralize objections by saying you're right, voicing what they're thinking, and bridging it with a yes.

And I hope they get the job.

Anita Brick: Right and well, we'll keep you posted. There you go. There are a lot of things on Sam's site, and her site is www.SamHorn.com. Thank you so much.

Sam Horn: I thoroughly enjoyed it. Hope that your students and graduates have found this interesting and useful.

Anita Brick: I'm sure they will. And thank you all for listening. This is Anita Brick with CareerCast at Chicago Booth. Keep advancing.