Turning a Career Setback to Your Advantage With Michelle Tillis Lederman

Anita Brick: Hi, this is Anita Brick, and welcome to CareerCast at Chicago Booth to help you advance in your career. Today we're delighted to be speaking with Michelle Lederman. Michelle is the author of The 11 Laws of Likability. Great book, by the way, Michelle.

Michelle Lederman: Thank you.

Anita Brick: She founded Executive Essentials, that provides communications, leadership, team-building programs, and executive coaching. Her clients include JPMorgan Chase, Morgan Stanley, Citibank, Deutsche Bank, Columbia Business School, Jazz at Lincoln Center, and the Museum of Modern Art.

She is an adjunct professor at NYU Stern School of Business, and her experience prior to all the stuff she does now was pretty eclectic. As I was reading your bio, Michelle, you were in venture capital, hedge fund. You were even at Deloitte Consulting.

Michelle Lederman: I tried it all.

Anita Brick: You tried it all. That's good. So Michelle received her BS from Lehigh University and her MBA with honors from Columbia Business School. Thank you so much. I know you're very busy. I know with the book just coming out, you've got to be crazy busy. But thank you for making the time.

Michelle Lederman: I'm happy to do it.

Anita Brick: Great. We had a lot of questions if we could start off. And maybe if you could tell us what are 2 or 3 characteristics of people who recover and maybe even advance through a setback?

Michelle Lederman: When I think about this question, I think about the bottom of the emotional intelligence pyramid. You know, there's a lot of different versions of it, but the foundation of the pyramid is always self-awareness. And I think people who recover have a really good sense of self and their skills and how those skills may translate into other types of functions so that it's not always a straight line.

And if you climb a little bit higher up the pyramid, one other thing there is self-motivation. And that's the ability to stay motivated in the face of challenges or obstacles so that you keep moving forward. Everybody has those moments, and I say, give yourself the egg timer, have your pity party, get those emotions out, and then get back to self-motivation and keep going.

Anita Brick: That's a great answer. One of the Exec MBA students said, there's so many things I can't control in my search, and it's really frustrating. How can likability help me be more in control?

Michelle Lederman: I'm a control freak myself, so I really relate to that question. The only thing you really can control is yourself and the way you approach something. And the way you view something. And so think about how you frame your reactions to people, to problems. So what being likable helps you control is to be careful with this phrase, being likable.

It's really about being you, but understanding the drivers of likability. What are your drivers? And so it's accentuating things that are most likable about you and bringing those to the table. So controlling the environments in which you're interacting with people, managing the energy that you're bringing to a situation, and recognizing that if you can't bring a likable—putting likable in quotes—or I should say a productive energy, then maybe that's not the right time to be in that situation.

Anita Brick: There was a question that kind of went along with that. What if you're in an interview—someone was talking about authenticity in an interview—and being really confused? OK, so I'm in this interview. Interviews are very artificial and sometimes they can be a little contentious depending on the environment, what they're trying to test out.

Number one, it's hard to control that environment. But how do you know what to bring forward? Maybe who you are is not what the company wants. A weekend student said, How can I resolve the difference between being real and being hired?

Michelle Lederman: You know, I'm going to share a personal story. When I was graduating from business school, I was interviewing with McKinsey, and I can share the name of the company. I really wanted a job with McKinsey and I went through seven interviews with them, and I really do live the law of authenticity. I was absolutely myself. And at the end of seven interviews, I did not get the job.

And I asked why, you know, I got along famously with everybody, and I answered questions well, and everybody kept passing me along, and they said my style was too casual. That was the only feedback I had. My style was too casual. First, I was absolutely furious, and an hour later I thought, oh my God, thank God. Thank God that they recognize what is a good fit for their company, because I might have gotten in there and been unhappy because it wasn't the type of people that I connect with.

It isn't always about just getting the job, but I know in tough economic times that is critical. Well, we'll talk about that, but you guys have a lot going for you with your education and with your strengths and with your skills. And so you want to find that right fit because you will do your best work when you're in an environment around people that you connect with.

Anita Brick: That's a good point. I remember sitting down with a student also who had an interview with McKinsey, and they just loved him, and they didn't offer him a job because they suggested he go to another consulting firm that was more entrepreneurial because that was his style. And he, like you, he was upset. And then, wow, what a gift they gave me.

It's hard when it feels like the market is tight and there's not a lot of jobs because they're going to get to know who you really are at some point.

Michelle Lederman: And if we don't feel like we can bring our best selves to the table, then we can't do our best work. But I still want to address the question because, you know, we are in a tough economic time and people want to have that job and that security. The advice I do give somebody who is in an interview and feels like they're looking for something where they're not, first of all, test your assumptions.

You know, you can ask questions in the interview to get a better understanding of what they're looking for and help determine what that fit might be, and also look to flex. As you're in that interview, you're going to listen with your eyes and your ears. So you're going to watch body language and try to match a little bit the level that they're bringing to the table, so that there's a comfort there.

You know, if I'm in an interview with McKinsey, I might be a little bit loud and very talkative and very animated, energetic. And if I'm across from somebody who is quite a bit more reserved or soft spoken, I'm going to need to rein it in a little bit. Light flexing is OK in the interview, but not completely morphing into something else.

Anita Brick: Makes sense. Makes sense. There was a question from another Executive MBA student who said, I work in a rather negative environment and I'm working on my MBA as well. Once I started my MBA, the pressure started building at work. I'm not going to quit the MBA, and I can't afford to quit my job. How would you recommend that I manage that negativity?

Michelle Lederman: I almost wish I had this person on the phone with us because, you know, you really want to probe a little bit to understand what is the negativity. It's perception. And I know perception is reality. But sometimes, again, there's a concept called the Ladder of Inference. It's Chris Argyris, and it's the Harvard Business Review, if anybody wants to look that up. The Ladder of Inference has us make an assumption and then make assumptions and conclusions based on that in our heads without any external confirmation of that information. And so when we're in this negative environment, is it really a perception or are there specific things that we can point our finger to? For example, maybe there's a person that we feel a lot of negativity towards or from.

So let's test the assumption. I always say that if you act a little bit differently to somebody than they expect, you're more likely to get a different reaction than you expect. So if you're not liking the vibe that you're getting in the office, try changing it up, showing some appreciation for somebody who you might not be connecting as well with, or offering help to somebody who you might not have offered help to before. It's sometimes just that shock to the system can shift things drastically.

Anita Brick: It's a good point, but it has to last more than one time.

Michelle Lederman: So true. You know, when I say you might do something different and you might get the same reaction and you thought, well, that didn't work, maybe they don't trust it yet because they have all these assumptions in their head as well. And they're thinking, what are they up to? So you need to be consistent. I love that you brought that up.

I always say test, accept, or reject. And a test is a minimum of three, but usually 5 or 6 times. You need to show that consistency before somebody is beginning to see that change in you as well.

Anita Brick: Very good point. And I think when you said that, it reminded me of how many years it took for my parents to realize I wasn't 15, I'd come back from school and grad school and then when I was working, and we would sort of revert back. And I think that can happen in the workplace, too, or people expect us to be a certain way. They may even say things to us to get us to revert back to a certain way. So you're right that consistency over time is crucial.

Michelle Lederman: And I'm going to throw one more thing in there. We talked about level one and three of the emotional intelligence pyramid, which is self-awareness and self motivation. Well, level two is self-regulation. And that's that idea of not having our triggers set us off. I know that certain things might get under my skin. I hate when people are late or if somebody uses the word frantic, you know, I'll show them frantic.

If we have a bit of self-regulation and we're able to stop in our tracks and not just be reactive, but rather be responsive in the moment, then we're going to have a much better chance of having a shift in perception.

Anita Brick: Good point. Consistency sometimes takes patience. And there was a question from an alum. This person said, patience is one of your laws. I am not a patient person, and I've been in the middle of a career change for more than a year. How can I see progress when there isn't all that much?

Michelle Lederman: Patience is actually the last law of the book because it's one of the hardest ones to do, and it is not one of my virtues. I always say give it time, things happen and it is frustrating. So when you are in this search, there's a couple things that you need to focus on, because we always focus on the end game and the results: Do I have a job or not? In this environment, they're saying people are out of work, between jobs, about 10 months. The old average is around six months, so it isn't the long dated time frame. I tell people who are thinking to start because it's going to take you at least 6 to 10 months to even find that right fit.

Be aware of that time frame. If you're a year in, you're right around where that average is, so it's not that different from the norm. Second, look at the knowledge that you've gained during that process. As you've looked at different jobs in different companies and done informational interviews and researched descriptions, you've started to learn about what is a fit for you and what is not, what companies that you like, what other companies are out there, what other types of jobs are out there?

You have gained an immense amount of knowledge along the way that is going to help you in the search, as well as when you actually land somewhere, because those jobs may be related. You also want to focus on the actions that you've taken. I always say celebrate the small stuff. You know, you’ve gotten five interviews and gotten called back three times.

Look at the wins that you are having. Look at the actions that you are taking and just keep going. To some extent it is a numbers game, and the more that you're out there, the more that you're talking to people. But also be aware that you don't know where it's going to come from. So broaden how you think about your search.

Anita Brick: Very good points. A follow-on question from actually another alum. He said I've been looking for a job for a year with no luck. Recruiters keep asking me to explain the gap in my resume. Unfortunately, there's not a good reason for it. I just haven't found a job. How do I overcome that kind of setback?

Michelle Lederman: A lot of people have been in that situation, and I think that it's all about how you present the information. If you show with your body language and with your facial expression that there's a fear associated with explaining this gap, then that's what's going to read is OK, then nobody wants them. Versus I really believe that it is important to find that right fit for both the company and for myself. And so I've been doing a lot of research in this time, really understanding where I think my skills can best be put to use and the different types of jobs out there. And I've been searching for that right fit. And I don't want to accept any job. I want to accept the right job. Now that has a very different perception.

And so you need to be able to feel and believe that that is being part of your process, and that is a way that you can present the information. There is a good reason for it. You have been searching for that right job. Or perhaps you said, you know what, there was a layoff and I decided to take a little bit of that time to spend some time with my family and reenergize so that I could focus and come back to work at 110%.

Think about some of those things and find the truth within you, because you cannot convince somebody else of it if you're not believing it yourself.

Anita Brick: True. And if you say that you're all recharged, that needs to be reflected in your energy, right?

Michelle Lederman: So true. Again, you need to watch your own body language and your own energy, your own facial expressions, eye contact, as you're sharing this information. Because I could say it the way I said it to you, and you guys will believe me. But if I say, well, um, I was, um, … they’re just going to not buy anything that you're saying.

Anita Brick: No, no they're not. There was another question from another alum that said, I feel like I'm in the middle of an extended setback working in a corporate law firm. And he wants to move into something that's more quote unquote, business. Job requirements seem so specific, and he only has law experience. How do you bridge that kind of gap and extended setback?

He wants to know where to find some of the jobs. And one of the things that I would recommend, and then turn the question over to you, is that there are lots and lots of jobs. For us, it's called GTS. It is off the portal, and it stands for Global Talent Solutions, and you can look both at current and historical jobs.

It can search for what they're looking for like additional degrees. And you could, you know, pop that law degree in there too. But aside from that, in a market that's very unforgiving, if you don't have the experience, how do you, number one, build the bridge? And number two, explain that extended setback?

Michelle Lederman: I think they need to really elevate their skills, especially with a lawyer. I started my career as an accountant. Now look at me. It's foundational skills. Law is foundational skills. I want you to go back and read some of those job descriptions and think about what you've done. It might be similar. You have read contracts, you've probably done a lot in Goshen.

You've done client relationships. You might have even done selling. These are all business skills. And so you need to recognize what it is, an experience that you have and how they translate into this new job description. Start reading those job descriptions a little bit differently. There are aspects that you may not have experience with. Maybe it's digital marketing or something very specific.

So how do you get those skills when you start to understand where you want to go and what the requirements are? First see how the things that you've done translate. Understand what those skills really mean. And then I want you to look to kind of build those skills. What are you doing for fun or externally or volunteering? There's a lot of ways to develop additional skills.

Anita Brick: I agree with you. And I think often the missing piece is the language they use. So you see in one context people talk about customers. In other contexts, people talk about clients. And if you want to move into a client-based organization, if you use the word customer, it's not going to work. So part of it is talking to people in the field that you are targeting. So you learn the lay of the land and the right—hate to use this word, but the right jargon.

Michelle Lederman: It is very true. And I actually tell a story in the book about Sandy, and this is a woman I coached a long time ago, and it's a fake name. So I can use it because I will not talk about real clients. So she was somebody who had been out of work a very long time, and because of the layoff of her husband, had to go back to the workforce.

But yet this was a woman who raised a few kids. She was on the PTA. She was volunteering for the Red Cross. I mean, she was out there and doing stuff, but she didn't believe she had any skills because she was never paid for them. You know that you've got value to bring to the table, and sometimes it's just redefining the skills that they're looking for.

One other thing I would recommend for this person is, go do some informational interviews or do some shadows. Take some people out to lunch and just ask if you could sit next them for 30 to 45 minutes and observe. One, you're gonna pick up on that jargon that you mentioned. You're going to feel the culture, the environment, and you'll be able to ask better questions to understand a little bit more about what it looks like. When you start to gain confidence that you can do the job, other people will gain that confidence as well.

So remember, when you go into that interview, you are not explaining. You're not defending. You are showing them and convincing them of your own belief in your ability to do something.

Anita Brick: Got it. No, that makes sense. There was an evening student who said, I've been in sales for the past nine years. I've done some job hopping. Eight overall jobs since I got my bachelor's in 2001. On the plus side, I'm in my 10th month here, and my previous job lasted for nearly four years. Sales is not for me. I feel like it's a setback that I've bounced around a lot. How do I explain that if now I want to make a career change?

Michelle Lederman: You are actually getting some of that education to help with that change. Now there is a very big shift in—even when I graduated from school, in terms of jumping around a job into today, there are, I think, an average of eight careers per graduate now—not jobs, careers. I think I've already had 6 or 7 careers.

I've never lasted in a job more than three years until I started my own company. Now you have most recently been in a job for a good amount of time, and the previous job was, you know, a real good chunk of time. So in your recent past, you've shown some consistency in those jobs. And if I was in front of you, I'd ask you, well, why did you jump?

Maybe each one has a little bit of a story, but you might want to instead of explaining one by one by one, because there are so many of them, you can kind of give an overview that wraps all of that together and then puts it away. And then you can then focus on those that you've been in a little bit longer.

But here's another question I have that you need to think about. If you had eight or so different sales jobs, why were you going? What were you looking for? What was it that you did enjoy about it? Because when you are looking for that next job, you don't want them to think, OK, he doesn't know what he wants, or she doesn't know what she wants, and I don't want them to just hop in and out here. So really think about what you learned about your skills and how you can best contribute to an organization so that they can be convinced that you know where you want to be and that they're not worried about you leaving them as well.

Anita Brick: Got it. Yeah. Because they're going to be thinking, oh, he's thinking about the next job before he even gets here. That's a very good point. If you know why you want to be in that company, then it makes for a really solid, cohesive story. Good advice.

There was another evening student who's been in a job for about four years that he accepted, primarily because this employer would sponsor his work visa in the US. However, he feels like there's been very low growth, not much learning. How can he bounce back from that kind of setback?

Michelle Lederman: You do have a more of a technical challenge because of the visa issue. There are possibly less job opportunities because less companies are willing to sponsor the visa. So if you're staying in that job and you're just feeling very stagnant, what do you need to do? We said it before. You need to shake it up. So seek internal opportunities.

You need to actually network internally, understand all the different opportunities, and then volunteer. Offer your help. But recognize that doesn't mean you don't have to do all the other stuff. So when you are trying to make an internal switch, you have to expect to put in a little bit more time because you still have to get your regular job done, and you're doing this for your personal and professional development.

So it's going to be above and beyond and make them aware that you're willing to do that. And who's not going to accept an extra set of hands? Also in that idea of volunteering, volunteer external to the organization. If you want to continue to grow skills, think about what are the things that you can do externally to grow those skills?

Is it OK as long as you're not being paid? Most companies don't have a problem with you doing some type of work for a nonprofit or something within the community. If you can volunteer and learn from somebody by offering free help, people will take you up on that. It's a very fair trade. Of course, I'm going to mention training. That's my favorite thing in the world.

Anita Brick: Of course. I mean, those are really important things. And whether someone is a student or an alum, there are lots of opportunities, even within Booth, to volunteer to get some leadership experience, work with an entrepreneur, the New Venture Challenge can be very exciting if you have an idea or if you join a team.

Michelle Lederman: I love that, but I want to hit one more thing on this person because if you do want to leave that job, and if you want to leave that job, you feel that your resume isn't, as you said, bolstered enough because you've been stagnant in that role. So you can think about the different reasons that kept you there.

You can talk about the loyalty that you had to the company. You can talk about the fact that you really feel that you need to grow. You don't want to put down that last firm, and you don't want to sound like you were just sitting there doing nothing.

Anita Brick: It's a good point. He was concerned about his resume being dull, but a lot of it depends on what you emphasize. You don't have to say everything in your resume. Of course you have all the different jobs, but you don't have to have 40,000 million gazillion bullets. You just focus on the things that that new audience is really going to care about.

Michelle Lederman: Keywords. Think about accomplishments. If you can quantify things in your resume, on your most recent jobs or on your biggest jobs, those should have the most bullets and should get smaller as you go further back into your path. And when you get really far back, like my first job, I don't even put bullets. I just put it like a 1 or 2 sentence narrative giving an overview.

Anita Brick: Agree. I know that we recommend short, sweet, and impactful. There was someone with a lot more experience. He said he has five years in his current company, a total of 12 years of experience. He's more senior than most of the people at his level. He feels that he's under-positioned and underpaid, but somehow he's not getting traction. He says, I'm very confident that even at the higher level, with my aptitude, I can outperform. What recommendations would you have for me to break out and work at my full potential?

Michelle Lederman: I would actually give this person some of the same advice we gave the last. In terms of going internally, I would go to some of the gatekeepers, go to some of the receptionists for managers that might be working on clients or projects that you have a lot of interest in, find out what they're working on, where they're going to be, when you might be able to catch up with them and offer that help.

See if you can just ask them what they're working on and how you could get involved. You know, there might be a lot of people knocking on those doors. So by going to some of the, as I call them, gatekeepers or those people that have the know in the organization, they might be able to give you a little bit of the inside scoop of what specifically you might be able to offer to do, and maybe you even do a little bit of it before you get there.

It might be a waste of time. They might not need it. But by doing some of that work and saying, hey, you know, I heard from so-and-so that you were interested in this type of technology I researched. I found these couple of things I thought you might be interested in seeing, that you want me to talk you through it, or should I just leave it for you?

Just that initiative is going to have somebody remember you. And so that's the type of thing that you want to start doing because you really need to network internally. You need to be proactive, and you need to do it before they ask. So you need to find the opportunities. The other piece of it is when the underpaid part of it, it is hard to get paid what you're worth once you're in.

I hate to say this, but people usually find they get paid their value when they leave, and so it might be something that you want to be doing simultaneously. I actually am working with somebody right now who loves the company, loves the job, but is feeling like they need a lot of the things that you need in terms of some more opportunity and some more money.

And so I have them doing a dual pass, both seeking external to see what the other things out there are and internally so that they can start to figure out how they can start doing it internally and doing it without yet having permission to do it, if that makes sense.

Anita Brick: As long as you understand the situation in your environment, that's a great strategy because it tends to work really, really well. I've seen many people make career changes inside their company, which is usually unheard of, because they did exactly what you're suggesting.

Michelle Lederman: All of the same things that we talk about, anybody who doesn't have a job you can be doing from the place of having a job because you're already internal. You want to shadow somebody, shadow them, eat your lunch as you're walking around the office. So do it.

Anita Brick: A good point, a very good point. There was an Exec MBA student who sounds like he is in an environment where there's not a lot of latitude to have a misstep. What are your thoughts about the best way to bounce back from a setback inside your company if it's a little hostile?

Michelle Lederman: We’re going to come back to a couple of things that we said earlier. In terms of perception, we always want to test our assumptions and our perception. Their hostility can sometimes be tangible, and we're pretty sure that we're feeling that. And people might even be saying some things if you're the one who made the mistake.

The first thing I always tell people to do is own it. That's not throwing yourself on the sword. And that's not mea culpa, mea culpa. It's taking that responsibility to say, you know what, I see how this decision had this type of impact. That was my responsibility, I own that. And then you also want to take the step further and say, here's what I've learned from that. Thank people for bringing it to your attention. Thank people for the feedback that they've given you.

Feedback is a gift. Sometimes it doesn't feel that way, and you have to sometimes unwrap it when you feel like unwrapping it. But to appreciate that somebody took that effort to give you the information and to say, thanks for pointing that out. Here's what I learned. Here's how I'm thinking I would have done it differently this time. And here's how I'm planning to approach it next time. Your change in reaction—you shake things up, yield very different responses from other people.

Anita Brick: And you may learn in the process additional lessons that could be carried over into the next one. I think the tricky part with that is sometimes feedback that’s harsh, it's hard to authentically appreciate it. But you're absolutely right. It's crucial to get there.

Michelle Lederman: When you're receiving the feedback, you're going to look for something that you can acknowledge and agree with. You don't have to agree with it all, but if you can take some of that in, then somebody feels heard. They feel that you're open and listening to it. You can then expand that conversation and either question and get more detail on some of the things that you might not be clear on. The whole idea behind feedback in both directions is that people feel that they're being listened to.

Anita Brick: Sometimes it's real. It's real environments. Hostile people are at one another, and sometimes it's language. People just use different words to mean the same thing. And sometimes clearing that up, really listening to what they're saying and clearing up any misunderstanding there can help a great deal.

Do you have time for like 2 or 3 more questions?

Michelle Lederman: Sure.

Anita Brick: First of all, someone said for people who are genuinely likable, how do you leverage that asset of likability for their career?

Michelle Lederman: I love that you have that sense of self. If you're already interacting well with people, keep doing what you're doing, keep doing what's working, and keep building those relationships. Think about what it is that you are doing, because sometimes, you know, we don't know what it is that we're bringing to the table that's working for people, and keep getting feedback, keep going out there and having more interactions.

When you have that sense that people are easy to work with, then people are going to want to have you on their team. So you have to make sure that they know that you are available. If you're sought after—and I know I've been in this perfect situation where everybody wants this person on their team and we just assume they're booked and they're sitting there with no work to do.

sure people know what you have to offer, what you are interested in doing, who you want to work for, get out there and don't be shy.

Anita Brick: Very good point. There is a weekend student. I love that he or she is planning way ahead. What should you be doing when your career is going well that could help you in the event that you do suffer a setback?

Michelle Lederman: This is like a perfect closing question, because this is really the epitome of the book. The idea of relationship networking, which I just call another way of making friends, is that you should be doing it all the time. I don't want people to network and think about these drivers of likability in a time of need, or in a time of now.

I want you to be incorporating them into your everyday lives and be networking for life, because those long-term relationships that you build are the ones that will sustain you in that moment of setback. Be out there and be looking to apply a lot of these laws of likability, especially those of the law of giving. And of course, the law of patience.

Anita Brick: Totally true. Now, would you give any additional advice if someone is in the midst of a setback, a career setback, and they need some practical next step, maybe they have those relationships, maybe they don't. What are 2 or 3 things that you would suggest someone could practically do today that would actually encourage them?

Michelle Lederman: Well, you know, it really depends on where you are in that setback. Are you trying to figure out what you want to do next? I'll give a real quick activity if you're trying to figure out where you want to go next. Often what causes a setback is because we don't choose where we are based on passion or interest. We choose it based on lifestyle or paycheck. And I am no different. That's how I started my career, and that's why I was in finance for 10 years.

So instead you want to think about three columns. And column number one is what you're passionate about, what you are most interested in. If you had 10 million in the bank, what would you spend your time doing? What magazines do you read? What do you volunteer like? Think about all this stuff to get your juices flowing.

Column two is about your skills, and really don't sell yourself short. That should be your longest column. If you don't know what you bring to the table, ask around. And then column three are those lifestyle type things you want to work with, teams you want to look at, you want to travel, you want a short commute, whatever those things are … might be a certain paycheck. Now remember, typically we start from column three. We work our way backwards. I want to start from column one and work your way forwards. So circle some things on the first one and then think about what of those attributes can contribute, what type of job there might be there, and then you use column three as a filter.

So that's how you're going to start coming down on figuring out what might be a right next move. Now, if you’ve already figured that out and you're trying to get there and maybe there's a leap because we don't have all those skills, we've given you a lot of ideas on this call of how to get some of those skills, whether it's volunteering, getting training, internal networking, offering help, reading a book.

I actually read an HTML book once because I wanted to see if I could. I think, yeah, it was … I didn't get through it. But, you know, it is still a way of thinking about how do I bridge some of those gaps so that when you're in that interview, you can say, you know what, I haven't had the opportunity to apply this on a job, but here's what I have learned and at least have some of that to bring to the table.

Anita Brick: And what if you're feeling a little discouraged and stuck? Those are great, one and two. What would the third thing, if you're in, you know what you want to do. Starting to bridge those gaps that you are just feeling a little stuck. Any final piece of advice for us today?

Michelle Lederman: Well, I'm going to share something I just instituted with my four- and five-year-olds. Use the timer. If you are feeling upset or if you're feeling stuck, you set the timer and you give yourself that much time. Whether it's five minutes or five days, to just give yourself a break because sometimes you need that mental break. Step away from it.

If you're doing the the three-column exercise and you've revisited it and let it sit there, do it over the course of a few weeks, then you basically give yourself a deadline and cut yourself off—say, OK, I'll give myself that time to be stuck. And then here's the 3 or 4 or 5 actions I plan to take once I'm done with this being stuck piece.

Anita Brick: That's great. I mean, I never thought about that, like setting a timer, that I can be upset or whatever else is going on at that moment. I like that. That's great. And this has been wonderful. Thank you so much. There's actually a chapter of Michelle's book, The 11 Laws of Likability, on the website. You can certainly download it.

And in her bio are her Twitter and Facebook and all the other social media things. And her website is ExecutiveEssentials.org. Michelle, thank you again. I know you're super busy, much success with the book and continue doing this great work that you're doing.

Michelle Lederman: Thanks so much for having me.

Anita Brick: … and thank you all for listening. This is Anita Brick with CareerCast at Chicago Booth. Keep advancing.