The Road to CEO

Anita Brick: Hi, this is Anita Brick, and welcome to CareerCast at Chicago Booth. To help you advance in your career. Today, we're delighted to be speaking with Peter Browning. Peter is an alumni of Booth and has been CEO of two multi-billion dollar global companies. In addition to that, Peter has been dean of a business school and currently, although sorta kind of retired, you sit on several boards. Peter, thanks so much for making the time today.

Peter Browning: Happy to participate.

Anita Brick: Obviously, you've had an extraordinary career. I remember when we first met part of the presentation that you gave on leadership, we used a Harvard business case that was about you and the things that you've done. People come into my office and they say, my long term goal is to be CEO and I know that there are more people who aspire to that than who actually achieve that. What do you think are the most important things to consider before actually building a path to the C-suite?

Peter Browning: Well, you know, if you had five CEOs on a panel and we were talking to them today, each of their careers would have followed a different path. I call it speed bumps and roadblocks. Anyone and everybody's career follows a different path. Number one, maybe that's the obvious two. You have to do things in an incremental way, whether you do or do not ever reach your aspiration.

I tried to force myself with my impatience to look at my career in blocks of time, saying, you know, as long as I'm adding to the quality of my resume is the way I described it, that is. On gaining new experience. I'm growing in what I'm learning, and so that whatever happens in my current job, I've added to the quality of what I can offer.

Another organization that you continue to grow and develop. Another thing is that as you move ahead over time psychology, as you're able to kind of climb out of the clouds a bit and whatever the size of your organization, so you have a little higher profile, taking on jobs that not only enhance and help you grow, but the title is something that you'll never have to give up.

So I have these kinds of conversations with lots of people all the time. And should I take this job as president of this business? And I said, yeah, you'll never lose that on your resume or general manager or vice president or CFO. Should I get on this board? And I said, yes, that's an experience you'll never lose to a career path.

Follow the same. But you need to think in terms of your own context, how you're adding to your own experience that will become valuable not only within your own company, but to another company.

Anita Brick: Got it. So this question came up in a couple of different forms, and Alan asked, what are key skills and personal qualities that you see as being critical to getting into the C-suite that paves the way specifically for you?

Peter Browning: Leadership comes in a thousand different forms. I call leadership the capacity to elicit the willing collaboration of others toward a worthwhile goal over an extended period of time. People get at that in different ways. If I take Lowe's, Bob Tillman was a bigger than life personality, really drove the change into the retail store and one of the top ten performing stocks, the S&P 500.

But his successor, Robert Block, had actually come from the CFO and had come in in the tax department, two totally different personalities, but each dealing with dramatic change in their business, just doing it in a different way. The bottom line is, and as we sit and think about in boardrooms, who are the logical candidates, we're trying to understand first their history, how they actually delivered.

And they've done it through good times and bad. Number one, they have the capacity to step up to this next job where you're not reporting to anybody directly, this loose board of directors that shows up 5 or 6 times a year and delivers the results.

Anita Brick: I mean, that's so consistent, an executive MBA student said, how does one position oneself for a transition from a business division head to the C-suite?

Peter Browning: Well, I've been there. I mean, you know, I spent 25 years with the company Continental Kitchen, at the time the largest packaging company in the world. I came up through sales and marketing. And so how do you broaden that? Because they were trying to pigeonhole me. And again, no two careers follow the same. I took some risks and took on some tasks, and people said it was crazy, but I needed to break out of the mold I was in and their minds would have been a more traditional career continuing to move up in that path.

Number one, staying in a job long enough to demonstrate your ability to deliver results in both good and bad times. Too often they move people too quickly, and you really get a chance because you're never quite as good as your numbers and you're never quite as bad. I mean, I've seen it too often, you know, Joe or Sally boy, what a great job they're doing.

And then two years later, whatever happened to Joe and Sally? I thought they were capable of doing more. And they just happened to be going through the ups and downs of business. So that's one two networking. I remember when I was at Chicago, our favorite faculty was Ed Wrap and in his class strategy and operating decisions, and we had a number of case studies around this.

He couldn't emphasize enough the importance of networking, of expanding your network, your connections. Yes, you're in this specific business unit, but you've expanded your network of connections, so it's going out of your way. When people call and ask for help, participate in meetings or areas where you're able to expand your network, raise your profile. You can both within the company and without taking risks.

The one I did was leaving from a division. I was in Chicago with a corporate office in New York, where the CEO wanted to take some unique technology, create a business unit, and bring in a consultant from the outside to focus on it. Most people say, don't do it. It's a big risk. I did it because I wanted to raise my profile at the corporate office, and did it for four years.

Turns out the FDA wouldn't approve this particular technology. I had to go back out into the organization, took another job at, and had a group that many people said, don't do it. They gave me safer positions. But I thought it was an opportunity again, that I could put that responsibility on my resume no matter what happened. And things turned out favorably.

I got lucky. So it's being thoughtful yet again. No two circumstances are the same. So that's being thoughtful about where you're at, what you can do to raise your profile, take on extra responsibilities, give speeches. There are a number of different ways, but you need to be thoughtful and with premeditation.

Anita Brick: Let's go back to something that you said. You said that you took this role to be at headquarters. It didn't work out and you had to go back, right. Did you have to take a step back organizationally? Did you make a lateral move back into the field? How did that happen? Because some people would view that as a defeat.

Peter Browning: First of all, here I was, this assistant manager, marketing this division out in Chicago. When were the smaller divisions. So they brought this fellow effect. The guy had run GE plastics at the time, Bob Daley. They brought him in. He interviewed somebody else first. He was older than I was, and had had a little more experience. This guy was more hung up on.

Was I going to get it? I know I forgot country club membership or other things to go with this job, and that turned Bob off. He then turned to me and I just wanted that opportunity. So I didn't even talk about money or anything else. I just said, I'm interested. He said, you're the man. He was very helpful.

We got along quite well. I got all kinds of exposure. Even in the middle of all of that. Believe it or not, someone from the University of Chicago classmate came into Browning. I got a great opportunity. You need to look at this. I talked to the group at continental at the time. I love you guys, but this is a chance to make a little more money.

And I ended up that anyway. I did it in a very careful way. I got down there to look at this opportunity for about a week and so what a disaster. They took me back. They'd already started a search to replace me. In the meantime, Daley would say the benefit of taking this risk to the CEO.

He said that Browning's capable of running continental, believe it or not. But we just need to give him more responsibility, he said. Peter, what you need is responsibility for managing a large group of people. Nobody can ever take that away. So things don't work. I finally went to Bob and said, look, we've been at this for four years. We brought in like the CFO from another division, the head of research from another division, head of H.R, from another division. And I gotta get back to the real world because this isn't going to go anywhere. So there was a division that had lost money for four years. It's in the case that they couldn't even sell the darn thing, but there was an opportunity to go out as the general manager of sales, which gave me responsibility for managing a large group of people.

I was offered jobs as a general manager and larger divisions safer, but not nearly having the same breadth of responsibility despite that title of general manager. So in fact, I'll never forget this a couple of years later when an EVP came up to me. Well, two different occasions. We're at a convention for the soft drink world of bottlers and canners, and this EVP comes up because you're crazy.

You are out of your mind. Three years later, he came. You know, I'd moved back from Chicago, back to Connecticut, and came up to me in church, actually living in New Canaan, Connecticut. He said, I can't believe you did this. I don't know whether you're lucky or what, but you turned it around. You did a hell of a job.

We were in the right place at the right time. The next thing I know, I'm giving speeches two years later because everyone tends to focus on how this happened. You know, it had to be one person and it wasn't. It was a team of us working together. We're in the right place at the right time, but.

Anita Brick: Well, and it sounds like you had the guts to do that. The other thing you mentioned a little bit ago about your professor at Booth was about relationship building. There was an executive MBA student who asked the question, I have 24 years of work experience since graduating college, and I'm working on my executive MBA. How do I deal with the kind of relationships I need to bridge into senior management, and also for board directorships down the line?

Peter Browning: I'll go back to Ed Rapp and strategy and operating decisions factor. Remember the case study the Ohio company was about an insurance company in Ohio, but it was about the importance of building your network of connections, but not in a way you're using people, but doing it in a positive, constructive way. Reach out to individuals, connect with others.

Make it a positive and constructive approach. They used to have a sales training program in New York and they said, would you be willing to come in and, you know, make a presentation? And I said, sure, not a problem. They were recruiting down at the university. Remember this? A lot of this the other day when they were recruiting at the University of Illinois.

Would you be willing to do that? Not a problem. Had to give a speech to the business fraternity. We were trying to upsell this product into a particular industry. I developed a relationship there. They'd ask up a bi willing to emcee the convention. So there I talked. I was still at the MBA program at the time. Would you be willing to chair this is the Pet Food Institute.

Would you be willing to chair or emcee the event? And I said yes. So I made all kinds of connections there. So you just need to be thoughtful and do it in a premeditated way. You ask about boards of directors. I get a call at least once a week. I have lunch later today with someone who is interested in joining a board.

Just to kind of put this in context, I could show you ten resumes, ten resumes of people who you'd say would be extraordinary and you'd be lucky to get them. And I can tell you, each one of those individuals would be a disaster because of their style or personality, because what you've got on a board is a group of peers that need to find a way to work together in a constructive way.

And I'm not talking about sitting around holding hands, singing Kumbaya. Far from it. My ideal would be like Henry Fonda and 12 Angry Men. You know, they're 11. People thought they ought to go left. And he didn't agree. And over time he was slowly able to persuade them. So you need individuals with different perspectives and points of view. But chemistry is most important.

Anita Brick: There was an MBA student who said, When I'm ready to be on board for different companies, how should I approach them to serve on the board? And I know you don't approach them directly and clearly. You doubt, but how would you differentiate yourself to be the right person to be on a board? How would you even identify someone?

Peter Browning: You need to network because of what I was just explaining the way a board normally is a good process. Not everybody follows this as if you've got a spreadsheet on the top or the names of the boards of directors sending a letter as soon as you retire. So that's across the top. On the vertical you have a skill matrix and you decide, you know, we need a so-and-so is going to retire.

And believe me, all four boards I'm on, we're in the process of recruiting as we speak. The next thing you do, and this is what I was getting back to, is, does anybody know anybody who might fit this? Not because it's the good old boy network. You want to avoid the chemistry problem? Trust me, every board I've ever been on, everyone has had an experience where the wrong person gets on the board.

And because they've never had an unexpressed thought, often wrong, seldom in doubt. They're frustrated. They want to try to run the company, whatever. They just have. The inability, despite their background and experience, to be a constructive member of a group in a thoughtful way. So it's about networking. That's number one. Number two, recent article. This was in the New York Times because of baby boomers retiring earlier, the large number of baby boomers, there are more people than ever looking to get on boards, not for profit and boards number three boards.

A recent article in Businessweek I was just this week on that. The average age has moved up to at least well, in 60 to 70% of the S&P 500 to 72. Some cases, they're allowing individuals to stay longer. Two of my four boards of 72 in September, two of the boards I will get off, and next May 2nd, I will continue to serve on the bottom line.

And believe it or not, it's back to networking. So how do you net right? It's a trade association. There are hundreds of board governance education programs around there everywhere like the CD offers. So I'm sure there's a chapter on Chicago. I've been on numerous panels for the NAACP, virtually everybody in that room is looking to get on a board.

You need to think about whether that's worth the investment. It's not going to change your profile, believe me. If you've happened to put on that, you've been in a program that's on your resume. It's about reaching out in a number of different ways to expand your network and your connections so that you're in front of individuals who say, you know, I think your background and experience would be great for this board.

It's no different than looking for a job, frankly. How do you do that? You can send out all your resumes. You can go to all these meetings, but you need a network. You need to expand your connections so that individuals will think of you because they're overwhelmed with all the resumes out there.

Anita Brick: It was interesting because last week someone said, well, what's the right kind of resume for a board leadership position because someone had asked her to apply. And I think your point is well taken. Of course, the document she sends in is important, but she's sending it in to someone who is leaving the board, who's recommending her for this position to me. And you just confirmed that that's way more important than the actual document.

Peter Browning: There is no stronger recommendation than another board member saying, look, I've met so-and-so. I think we should include this person in what normally would happen. You'd take that resume or other resume. The board would then say, do we feel comfortable that any of these, from what we've known and been told, will fit what we're looking for? And you may say yay or nay, no, I appreciate the recommendation, but board members do speak up and say, I hear you, but I don't think that's what we're looking for.

I don't think that's what we need. The next step is to do a search. And so that's why there are multiple search firms out there. And for the larger companies, they charge $120,000 per search. Wow. That's another reason people are thoughtful about larger companies. Now the first choice is a sitting CEO. I mean, if you look at the statistics, the second is a retired CEO.

And I tell you, do you have the boards? Come on. Right now, that's what we're looking for. The third is we are actually looking to expand the number of women on the board. Someone who's not just had a financial background, but as a CEO on this particular board, I don't know. I just saw them getting ready for the board meeting for resumes of individuals.

And in this case, these have come through the search firm. So what we do and we sit around the board is does anybody know anybody or is aware of anyone that is familiar with this person or they seem to have sat on that board? Yes. I know somebody. So you triangulate trying to get a better sense of what this person's like, not just their resume. Quite frankly, it's not a lot different than what you do when you sit and try to find a senior person to bring into a company.

Anita Brick: You're right. So many things revolve back to relationship building. Just to switch gears for a second weekend, a student asked how much this industry matters. I understand that it's good to have different functional experience to move toward becoming a CEO. How much does industry experience matter?

Peter Browning: Well, I can tell you the first preference is from within. What we're talking about here is when a firm decides to go outside, you know, there are plenty of examples of how that continues. Activist shareholders, those that are critics of, you know, in the corporate world, always look at whether you had to go outside to hire somebody because it cost you more and you end up with a higher severance change of control.

Where did you fail? So for better or for worse, what's considered, quote, good governance is the fact that you're able to hire from within. So that's number one. Number two, I was on a board where this was a spin off from Goodrich and about a billion and a half dollar company, while the guy who was the initial CEO had been running those businesses, did a nice job for five years.

It was such a short period of time, we were really unable to develop the kind of individuals we'd like to see within that business. We had to go outside. We had ended up paying out a sizable market to get the right individuals. Steve is doing an incredible job. You know, we got some criticism because his pay was higher than you would normally pay someone for a billion and a half dollar company.

That's what it took to get the best CEO we could find. So it would be very hard to have been, and let's say in an industrial setting and go into retail, it's just two totally different worlds. Can you go from one industrial setting to another? Yeah, I went from continental, you know, packaging the National gypsum, different channels of distribution, different products.

And we were mining at that chemical process etc.. But on the other hand, there are lots of similarities. It comes to manufacturing, marketing comes to sales, and organizational structure. When it comes to looking at the financial statements, taking a look at the monthly operating statements, they're quite similar. I sat on the board of Prolia . When you start to look at those financial statements, it would be very hard to go from an industrial background.

Not that people haven't done it, but I mean, to become CEO of a large financial institution, very difficult. You need some common background and experience to aid and abet you as you move into a new culture in a new company.

Anita Brick: Got it. So you'd mentioned financial statements. Of course, as CEO, you're not the CFO, but you better really understand those financial statements. Another weekend student asked a question at what point is it in my best interest? You have P&L experience.

Peter Browning: If you could, the sooner the better. But it's not always possible when you have large companies with narrow business lines, but the sooner the better. I was one of the reasons I took that job at 39, so I had gone to New York at 34, not having managed a large group of people. By taking those risks. The next thing I know, I was out 39 as the general manager at this bond where division and the way we were decentralized, I had my own controller of CFO and I had a head of HR.

I had full general management, responsive billing. It is the best experience you can get. That was one of the themes of Ed Rapp again at Chicago. He'd written a number of papers around the importance of the general manager John Carter at Harvard, wrote his best book, I think, a while back in the late 70s around the general manager.

This got a lot of ideas from it, actually. The importance of what you learn as a general manager. It's not always possible, is the problem. And so not everybody is fortunate enough to get a shot at that, to get an opportunity at those particular jobs. They broaden, test, strengthen everybody. You really find out what you're like as a general manager.

Anita Brick: Not an executive MBA student asked. I've recently been promoted to CFO of a business unit within a multi billion dollar corporate entity. Ultimately, I'd like to move to CEO. However, CEOs traditionally do not come from the finance function. So while I'm here in this finance function, what do you think I should do? What kinds of experiences do you think would be beneficial so that I could be considered for a CEO role later in my career?

Peter Browning: Well, a couple of observations. First, I realize that's the exception, but there are still plenty of CFOs that move on to the CEO position. And it has to do with them as individuals and the perception by their boss, the board and others. You are given responsibility for strategic planning for acquisitions and divestitures. You may have other administrative duties given to you as head of H.R or risk management, whatever it might be.

So number one, it's how you're viewed as having the capacity to take on more responsibility. You're willing to take that on. It's a way of demonstrating your capacity to do more than just the narrow CFO role. It's the willingness to move out of that CFO role, which is a big job in a major division, and take on another task elsewhere in the corporation.

It's an opportunity to give senior management another look at you and your capacity to to be viewed in a different way than someone who has come up through the finance line, has the capacity to do more than remain as the CFO of a division and ultimately move up. You need to change the way people view you. Demonstrate that you're capable of doing more than just the CFO job.

Anita Brick: Well, that's what you did. You said that you had to step out of sales and marketing to be viewed more broadly, and that was a risk, too. But it sounds like that type of risk taking is necessary in most companies.

Peter Browning: That goes with the territory. Part of it is having some level of confidence that the worst is it doesn't work out. And I'll go find something else to do because I know I'm capable of taking this on. So there's a we'll call it hubris, but there's a certain confidence in oneself, as uncertain as you are about whether this is going to work out.

And can I get ahead and will I get promoted? And they know what I'm about. But a certain confidence in willingness to take some risks that if they just don't work out, that will work out and I'll survive? Well, certainly in my experience, I never run into anybody that hasn't been willing, that's been successful, been willing to make a try to move out of a comfort zone, to try something different. How businesses make money, they take risks.

Anita Brick: Oh, absolutely. How important is it to have a champion? Because I know one of the executive MBA students said, I recently read an article about having an internal champion is crucial to rising to senior management. What control do I have? If the mentor needs to choose me? So we've heard that a lot. You want to have a mentor, you may identify someone, but ultimately they need to choose you. How do you get them to choose you? I guess that is really the question.

Peter Browning: My first job, but I was actually in sales. This is 1963 and 64. I happened to have a very good district manager who was a great guy to learn from. He was not ambitious. He couldn't figure out why I was giving him such a hard time, because I wanted to move on and other companies were coming to me or, you know, early on it was in the related industry.

And, I mean, I almost leapt about 15 different times, but he kept me coming in and helped me develop, grow and learn there. So that was helpful. The only other person who was really well, we were two. One was this guy, Bob Dailey, who was brought in from the outside. It didn't even have a vested interest in his career at continental, but he's the guy that ran that special project at the corporate that I took on.

Then there was someone who was an assistant to the EDP. We were good friends and he was always a sponsor as I moved along. So that was then. I was on my own. I did go out of my way when people were looking for things we were willing to do. Would you be willing to do that? Yes.

I guess I had a reputation of being open, being someone who was open, who was cooperative, who was willing to consider other points of view, be supportive of other operations, different perspectives. And sometimes you're fortunate that someone above you sees you as someone with the capacity to grow and develop. But that's not always the case. And so what?

So then you need to think about other ways to expand your horizons, raise your profile further, develop yourself within that company. Expand again outside into its trade associations. So there are all kinds of groups. It's finding other ways. It's an imperfect world, an imperfect process. Sometimes you're never able to find that right person. It may be for a fleeting time. That's terrific. If you're so fortunate. If not, figure out other ways to get there.

Anita Brick: What I've seen lately is that there is a trend towards rather than a mentor or one sponsor or champion, but having an advisory board, having a cadre of people that you can go to for advice at different times, for different things depending on what their area of specialty is. That seems to be another route that people are taking. So all your proverbial eggs in one basket, you go to different people and get different pieces of advice.

Peter Browning: That's just another. I'll call that another example of improvisation. So whatever your circumstances, if that person isn't sitting there coming in and saying, look, I'd like to try to help you out, whether it's formal or informal, didn't you create your own network? And that could be within a company that can be with us. The company can be personal.

Friends, as I say, could be a peer, could be someone above you. It's about developing this network. I'll go back to Ed in about networking. There's no perfect way to do it. You just need to do it in a positive and constructive way. But you go out of your way. Sometimes it'll work, sometimes it won't. So you may have the cabinet if you're so fortunate.

We have one person, you know, we're always great at giving advice to everybody else but ourselves, so it's always nice to have someone to be able to talk to. It's one of the challenges, quite frankly, for a CEO, when you report to 9 or 10 people, who does the CEO have to talk to? In this day and age, it could be the lead director, but it's still a director.

I'm working with three CEOs right now who are above and beyond their board. We're just looking for someone to be able to talk to about various challenges they might have specific to their particular circumstance. You just need to do it with premeditation. And no two people are going to have the same set of circumstances where they're able to develop the kind of mentor or feedback relationship that they like, go out of your way to try to develop connections.

Anita Brick: Clearly, that is the message. It's true. When you're looking for a job, it's certainly true when you are looking to get to that CEO spot to get on that board. There's a question that came from an evening student, and actually, you and I have talked about this in the past. He said. In one of my classes, we discussed the idea of how a crucible moment, i.e. a very challenging personal or professional experience is what makes a leader great. Have you experienced this to be true with CEOs that you know?

Peter Browning: Oh yes, and I'll talk about my own experience of life. Throws curveballs every day and dusters sometimes get hit. And so having had experiences, whether they're personal or within business, that didn't go your way or that were a challenge, as I told you, I was 28 or 29 and we had two young children at home, and my first wife was very, very sick in and out of the hospital for several years.

I remember going into my boss at the time I just been in, I know weeks before saying, look, I'm looking for morning. I'll do whatever you want, but I can't do anything other than just keep my, you know, nose to the grindstone, take care of my family and do the best I can for you. All of them were very helpful and very supportive. But you think that kind of life's almost over when you're 28 or 29, and you're dealing with those kinds of circumstances, making difficult decisions, making difficult personal decisions. Those are Crucible moments. And so how.

Anita Brick: Does that make you a better leader, though? Peter, how did having that challenge at 29, which was a personal challenge, not a career challenge, how did that actually make you a great leader?

Peter Browning: Well, I don't know if it did or not. What I learned.

Anita Brick: Okay. Fair enough.

Peter Browning: I was getting all kinds of advice and counsel, speaking of networking and the rest, and I thought, there's too many voices here, man. This is such a personal decision about what I'm going to do next and how I'm going to go about it. I've got to figure this out for myself. I just need to take the time and be comfortable.

Whatever path I follow. You're having to shut down a division. You're having to let people go. You're having to close a plant. You're having to make difficult decisions. You want to get all the advice and counsel you can, but ultimately it's your decision and you have to be comfortable with that decision, as difficult as that is. But it is nevertheless making tough, difficult decisions.

And that's what business is about, actually. It's made in so many cases, whether it's an acquisition, it's a merger, divestiture, and call it what you want. People make decisions every day, the higher up you go, the more time you spend on people's decisions. Some are wonderful and uplifting and others are very, very difficult, very difficult. You need to think through it, do it the right way, but do it.

I always say in terms of people issues, there are no secrets in an organization. Everybody knows who is carrying their weight and who isn't there. Looking to see if you're willing to address that issue. Number one, and if you do it in a thoughtful way, if I learned a lot of things about life, but I certainly learned there about being thoughtful and deliberate, but that life was about crossroads and making difficult and tough decisions.

Anita Brick: You've given us a lot of really good advice, and I know that the students and alums listening to what you had to say will greatly benefit. Just to summarize, if you were building a path to the C-suite, what are three things that you would do?

Peter Browning: I mean, I remember I drove everybody crazy when I was starting because I'm a voracious reader back then at one time, but we got 35 to 40 different magazines here at home, quite broad in their view. But I got all kinds of things that were sent into the office. In fact, I remember the district manager at the time, the regional manager, why he had all these magazines.

So they had to do with the industry. I wanted to be very, very well informed. I would read things that were specific to customers. I was calling on, on our particular interest in packaging and in broad business. I tried to be as well informed as I possibly could, and went out of my way to generate additional data. Number one.

Number two. Interesting. In 1953, there were 3500 MBA degrees granted. So by the time you got to the early 60s was starting to grow, the question is, shall I get an MBA? Then later I realized I felt that I needed not only the imprimatur of the MBA, but I needed the educational experience. I realized that I needed to break out of this very narrow situation.

Everybody said, you are terrific. You're really doing good things. You can really get a great career here at this division. And, you know, you could be a district manager, a regional manager, or a sales manager. I got you, and I want more than that. Not the people were terrific and so supportive of me under the circumstances I mentioned. It really helped me grow and develop.

It was the realization I needed to break out of that more. They needed to take some risk, if you will. So those were three things that, well, for me I realized the importance of public speaking. So when I was finally downtown at Sunoco, I could stand up in front of 300 people. PowerPoint would be behind me. Never.

I mean, I stepped away from the podium and I walked through my remarks. The ability to address a group of five people, 15, 100, and 1500 to do it in a thoughtful, effective way is a very, very powerful capability. Not everybody is effective on their feet. Not everybody is an effective public speaker. It's not the cynical unknown to get into the C-suite.

I can tell you this. It is a very powerful and effective capability and attribute. It's an important part of leadership. So whether you're uncomfortable speaking to people, you better find another way and your ability to communicate. I drove my wife crazy practicing speeches. I used to stand in front of the mirror practicing speeches and then finally to the point, you know, they said, well, you're your best speaker.

We've got a company. Would you be willing to do this kind of thing? Would you be willing to give a speech here? Would you be willing to give a talk here? That was a lot of blood, sweat and tears developing that capability. It's being thoughtful and deliberate about those kinds of things.

Anita Brick: Great. One thing you didn't mention, but you did mention several times where did the relationship building in the networking fit into all of this?

Peter Browning: It's a good question because I have spoken about it. Yeah, I would add that to the list. I got along well with people. I was always open. I tried to be engaging, I was responsive, I was respectful, so I got good feedback about, you know, my ability to get along with people. You know, I was supportive of other points of view and perspectives turned out to be one of my strengths.

As you know, I've been concurrently lead director on two boards. I mean, non-executive chair, like chair of audit committee, compensation, governance, being thoughtful and considerate of others, being open to other points of view, making sure that everybody gets an opportunity to express their perspective and point of view. And so if you're not true to yourself, it falls flat.

Respecting individuals as individuals, I think that's very important. You realize ultimately I've seen this, you know, being involved in these global businesses that something we all know, all to people ultimately are the same. So if you're talking to a group in a plant and in a country in Brazil, or a plant outside the airport in, in Bangkok, in Thailand or in Germany or Finland or you name it, or in the States, their dreams, their ambitions, their hopes, or we're all alike.

It's respecting individuals as individuals in recognizing their humanity in a way that allows you to deal with individuals in an open, constructive way at all levels. That's a very real thing. And if you mean it, it comes across and allows you to, you know, to build mutual respect with individuals and to be able to communicate effectively and help build your network.

Anita Brick: Well, clearly, you've done that so well over the years, and we all benefited from your sharing this wisdom with us. So thank you so very much, Peter.

Peter Browning: Well, listen, it's my pleasure. I hope it is helpful.

Anita Brick: And thank you all for listening. This is Anita Brick with CareerCast at Chicago Booth. Keep advancing.