The Only Move that Matters

Anita Brick: Hi, this is Anita Brick. And welcome to CareerCast at Chicago Booth. To help you advance in your career. Today we're delighted to be speaking with Jennie Blake, who is an author, career and business strategist and international speaker who helps people organize their brain, which I love. Jennie. Move beyond Barnett and build sustainable, dynamic careers they love. She's the author of the ACM award winning book Pivot.

The only move that matters is your next one. After two years at a technology startup, followed by five years at Google in training and career development, Jennie moved to New York City, where she has been running her own consulting business. Her motto is if change is the only constant, let's get better at it. Today you can find her at Jennie Blake. Thank you so much for writing this book. This is an issue that is a pain point for so many students at alumni, because they get scared and they don't want to make a move. It seems too big. The whole idea of Pivot is really a wonderful one.

Jenny Blake: Thank you so much and thank you for having me on the show. It's an honor to be here. And exactly as you said, it was challenging for me every few years. I was already looking toward what's next and didn't have the clarity on what that should be. There was something wrong with me, and that maybe I was one of those entitled millennials that the media keeps talking about.

And as I started to do research for the book, I realized that it's not just one generation. It's actually people of every age, life, stage, career, stage, bank account balance. We are all experiencing this. What's the next question much more frequently than in years past? So it's even outmoded to use terms like midlife crisis or quarter life crisis. Because what I found is we're kind of going through these existential searching moments every few years, and we don't have to take it so personally.

Not all pivots have to be huge and dramatic either. So it's not about celebrating. Yeah, you should quit your job every two years, but rather pivot. Is this a way, a mindset, and a method for how we ask and answer that question?

Anita Brick: What's next to kick us off and an executive MBA student asks, a lot of people are very familiar with pivoting in a startup environment. What is the difference between a startup pivot and my making a career pivot?

Jenny Blake: Well, I'm born and raised in Silicon Valley. You know, the startup world is in my DNA in some ways. One of the original questions that I had when starting to write this book was, how can people be as agile as a startup? And at Google, we had a mantra of launch and iterate, be scrappy. So how could people have that same resilience?

And one thing that is the biggest difference is that when startups talk about pivoting, it's often plan B they have to pivot in order to save the business. Something went wrong and now they need to pivot. So YouTube used to be a video dating site. Twitter used to be a podcasting service, and these companies pivoted to stay in business.

But as I look at it on a career level, on a personal level, pivot is not necessarily a sign that anything went wrong. Pivot is the new plan for when it comes to our careers. And what that means is that often when we hit a pivot point is high net growth. That money is important, but it's not everything.

And that if you're a high net growth individual, you're very naturally going to be asking yourself, am I learning and growing? And then ultimately, am I making an impact? Those of us who are high net growth, we are going to hit pivot points every few years. And even if we're looking to, how can we develop within our role? It's a way of taking things to the next level, not necessarily a sign that anything has gone wrong. And that's the biggest difference between people pivoting and startups.

Anita Brick: To me, it's all really fascinating and it surprises me so much. I hear this from students. I hear from alumni that there's a discount. There's another executive MBA student who said, I can see what's working, but I tend to discount its value in my next move. What do you advise others who face a similar dilemma?

Jenny Blake: It's a great question because the natural thing for most go-getters to do is to say, okay, I'm at a pivot point, what's out there, and the first thing we do is start looking outside of ourselves for answers. What are on the job boards? Who can I talk to? What do they do? And we skip right over what's already working.

And I made this mistake. I spent much longer than necessary in my own pivot malaise because I was so focused on what I didn't want, what I didn't know, what I didn't have, that none of that propels the conversation forward. And that's when this analogy of a basketball player came to me that I was I thought about the word pivot.

And what does that really mean? When a basketball player stops dribbling, they have one foot firmly planted. That's their plant foot. It's their strength or foundation and then the pivot, but can scan for passing options. In my pivot, one of the biggest mistakes I made was not having a plant foot. I was not grounded in either my strengths and what was already working or a one year vision.

What does success look like? I was just so focused on trying to solve the problems that a lot of go getters are good problem solvers. We get right to the details before we're really anchored in any sort of foundation. The basketball analogy that goes with pivot is about having one foot firmly grounded and rooted in what's already working, and that's why it's a pivot and not a 180.

Anita Brick: How do you get people to say, yes, this is where you are, this is what's working, and it is valuable. Obviously, you have to connect the dots between where you are today and that pivot. But how do you encourage people to not discount what they're doing? Well.

Jenny Blake: I think it's expanding what that means. If what's working doesn't feel that important, like you said, or there's not so much energy around it, keep digging. Even if 25% of what you're currently doing, what do you look forward to in a given week? What are your biggest strengths that you use at work? What did you enjoy doing as a kid?

What brings you the most joy outside of work? These are all bits of information that inform the strengths somebody already has. It's very easy when pivoting to focus on any gaps or perceived lack, or how far away a next move seems. And the one thing to realize is, again, that almost nobody listening to a podcast like yours, Anita, is starting from scratch.

People have little side hustle, little projects most can be so informative about things that come naturally to us and that we enjoy. And the other piece of the plant foot is a one year vision. This is something a lot of people skip. Maybe it seems too abstract, and also it can be intimidating to say, well, what do I really want a year from now?

Because what if it doesn't happen? Or who do you think you are to say that out loud? But the vision is so important because a year from now, what do you want to be learning? What do you want to be learning? How do you want to make an impact? What does your ideal average day look like? How do you want to grow?

If you are getting an award or if someone sent you a glowing thank you know, what would it be for? And this is where you can start to pull in whatever known variables you have, even if you don't yet know exactly what job or what company or what next move will get you there, it starts to place the brackets of a pivot in a way that does make all of the scanning for opportunity more strategic.

Anita Brick: That makes sense. Along the lines, you talk about different zones. We can say, I'm in the zone of excellence at work. Why utilize my quant skills daily? I want to be in the zone of genius where I can add creative endeavors to my work. When you've advised other quants or tech types, where do they start?

Jenny Blake: This is referencing Gay. Hendricks wrote a book called The Big Leap, and he says, we have four zones: a zone of incompetence, a zone of competence. You can get the job done, but not very well or very quickly. A zone of excellence like, yeah, you're actually great at it. And this is where a lot of people get stuck because you're good at something but don't necessarily fall into the fourth, which is your zone of genius. Your zone of genius is where you are totally lit up on fire times why these strengths are unique to you just really.

Anita Brick: Feel.

Jenny Blake: Like you're in the zone. It is easy to get stuck in a zone of excellence where we're doing good work, but we still have this nagging feeling in our gut that says there's more out there for you or there's more you're capable of. So the question that I would offer to anyone, whether you're in quant or that kind of related field or not, is what could you add to what you're doing now?

That would be in your zone of genius based on what you're already doing? If you're in the senior zone of excellence, what is your zone of genius? And even if you don't know how to incorporate it yet. So a lot of this at Google, and I've seen it at other companies, many, many people would propose a 10% project. That was something you're really excited about.

You have your core role. Nothing's getting taken off your plate, but you have permission to work on something with a little bit of your time every week. Gmail actually started as one of these 10 or 20% projects, and over time they proved the value and it got so much momentum. And now it's one of Google's core products. Similarly, I worked on a 10% project to help make a drop in career coaching available to any Googler by training managers and directors in the company how to provide coaching services.

When I started that with a group of friends in the company, there was no career development team. But a year and a half later, when a career development team was created and a role opened up, I was well positioned to move on to it because I had started this side project. For anybody who was saying, okay, I'm in my zone of excellence, what would be a small project that you could tackle?

It would be in your zone of genius, and that would help you add value to the company or to your team or your work, and get you in the swing of doing what really lights you up. And then eventually, you know, you don't have to know how it can become your full time job overnight, but that's the way that it starts to happen. Rather than waiting for an entirely new job role to open up.

Anita Brick: Oh, I totally agree. That's how this podcast came about. I wanted to, I thought it was no idea. Yeah, at the time people were like, what's a podcast? I am like, well, you know, let me try a little one off here. And when I was there and then it started getting traction and people that I like, well, let's make this a regular thing and do it in a way that is fairly low risk.

Most people aren't going to say no as long as it doesn't detract from your main job. So there are many ways to do that. So I love the idea and I have personal experience to say that it can certainly be wonderful. There were a handful of people who were feeling challenged by even thinking about a pivot, and for a variety of reasons. So another weekend student said, I grew up in a family culture filled with many shoulds. How do you advise people like me on how to dismantle the shoulds so I can have and make them authentic.

Jenny Blake: Pivot that can be such a challenging one when you feel like you're ready to make a change, but you can anticipate or family and friends have actually said, no, don't do that, or that's not a good idea, or you should do XYZ instead. One thing that's really important, especially when thinking through, and I define a pivot as a methodical shift in a new related direction to whatever you're doing.

So often pivot to me within your current role. Or if you're in a graduate school program, it's really about mapping what's next. So it can be how you want to grow in the coming year, even if you're not making a drastic change. Maybe that takes some of the pressure off, even thinking through a pivot in the first place.

But if you think of it as how to grow in the coming year, not just how do I make a massive change, it can be less intimidating. And then to let yourself brainstorm and go through the process before you worry about communicating any decisions or ideas to family in particular, and before you even consider their opinions, what happens is a lot of times we can't even hear ourselves think because we have our own fears.

And then what I found is sometimes the people on the outside were saying things that reflected fears I already have. I got really confused about what I even wanted in the first place. So if you can separate decisions first, understand well, what do you want in your heart and your gut, then separate having to do anything about it, and then separate that from having to communicate it to anyone.

Jenny Blake: And I will say that when I was leaving Google my mom, she thought I was crazy. You know, I was leaving a great job with great benefits, great salary, bonuses, yoga, three meals a day. I already had an inner CFO. That was. You're an idiot. What are you thinking? You know, why on earth do you think you can provide for yourself better than Google?

And then my mom essentially said the same thing here I am. It was five years later and I was working on the book, and I wanted to include a line about how family will come around once they see that you're successful. So I called my mom and said, mom, I'm putting this in the book, just want to double check it with you, she said.

I still don't agree with this when and how you left. No, we agree to disagree. Still, to this day, it doesn't matter what I've done in the 5 or 6 years, we still don't agree on when and how I chose to leave. At a certain point, you may agree to disagree kindly and compassionately with your family, and you just let them know I've got this and I appreciate that.

Your concern for me. I know you just want to keep me safe and secure. That's what our families want for us. But what we value as high net growth and impact individuals as often, not just security. We want to feel freedom, growth, expansion, impact. And that often involves taking some smart risks. So ultimately, once you're clear for yourself, it becomes much easier to communicate that to friends and family without being swayed too much by their response.

Oh, it's so. Explain. Yes, this seminar evening, students said you talk about stagnating through panic with regard to risk. They don't deliberately set goals and pivots to throw me into a panic, and I often realize I've gone too big. What's your advice on how I could better predict the risk level before charging ahead?

This refers to a diagram I call the risk ometer, and that's that. For any given next step or overall pivot, we're often either in a stagnation zone, not doing anything and getting real antsy about it. A comfort zone brings time or stretch zone, which is the optimal range for change, where we feel stretchy but edgy and exciting. If you stretch too far, you're in your panic zone where we just feel paralyzed.

We have a lot of pressure when it comes to career planning, myself included. I used to think of it as these huge moves and our livelihood, our ability to feed ourselves is connected to it. I talk about small experiments and small next steps in the book. The goal is pick something that feels stretchy and edgy, but still you look forward to it and you're not betting the bank.

You're not risking so much that if it doesn't work out, you're screwed. I say a good pilot will help you answer. Three E's quite enjoy this area. Can I become an expert at it? And is there room to expand either within your school program, within the company you're working for, within the marketplace? So by determining in advance, am I setting up a pilot that has low potential downside with high potential upside?

Not everyone will want to write a book, but for me, trying to get a book deal, there's a low downside to me writing a book proposal. By the way, my agent rejected it the first time around, she said. I couldn't sell this book if I tried, but nonetheless, I wasn't risking anything other than my time and energy. But if I got a book deal, if I did get the chance to work with a great publishing house and come out with a book, it could really help my career and really help my business grow.

That was an example that I was very happy to invest in, versus things that sometimes get glamorized in the media, where somebody takes out a second mortgage on their home. If this business venture doesn't work, they're going to be homeless and destitute, but if it does, it might become the next thing that I've never been comfortable with.

And I know I'm giving extreme examples here. I have a feeling that the person asking the question is not doing anything so drastic, but it's really just checking in and saying, okay, if I tend to keep putting myself in the panic zone, how can I cut each next step in half so that I can assess a little bit more as I go?

And then another strategy I like to do is I run multiple pilots at once. Think of it like a test episode of a TV show. It's one episode to help a network see if they want to pick up the full series. So thinking about career mode, what are several different experiments that you can have, even if you have no clue what the results might be? And that's a way to diversify your career portfolio so that you let the pilot show you what next steps to take as they start to take on a momentum of their own.

Anita Brick: How do you do that and not lose focus? You hear the other side. If you don't have focus, you're never going to get anywhere. So how do you balance the diversification with the momentum that happens when someone is focused?

Jenny Blake: I have people say this to me a lot. I have multiple different ideas. I feel like I've got to pick one, and I think we are moving into a job market that is more dynamic now. I think focus can mean three really solid tracks, even if one takes 70% of our time and attention and then 20% and then that way of any one that's working or it gets stagnant, you still have to kind of keep going. When you get too spread out. Then I like to ask the question, what do all these things have in common? How do you roll them up to a focus area that does include them all?

Anita Brick: Totally agree. And I think that makes a huge difference. It's really not a good idea to have one thing. So I like the idea of diversity, but having that unified umbrella that brings it all together.

Jenny Blake: Sometimes that may be getting a finance job at a startup. So then that incorporates, yeah, the tech companies are looking for and the finance role asking a question of how can I incorporate both?

Anita Brick: I thought I was working with someone this week who had three different pieces, and I said, go and mash these three things up and see what you can do.

Jenny Blake: I love that.

Anita Brick: It may be something completely ridiculous and crazy, but then we'll at least have a place to start. I like the idea of diversity and unification at the same time. This was an interesting question from an alum and he said, I agree with the concept of generosity without expectations, but I do feel cheated when nothing comes back to me. What is your advice on how to choose people who are more generous?

Jenny Blake: Well, there's a great book by Adam Brandt, but maybe you even had him on the show. Probably give and take, which is about, yeah, three kinds of people: givers, takers and matchers. I love being a giver. I mean, I'm really a giver. I've always had that philosophy in my career and in business. But of course, as Adam Graham says, too much giving without discernment and you get totally burnt out.

I think the answer is baked into the question. It's like before giving, taking a moment to say, is this deserving of my time? You know, I love Marie Kondo's super sensation book, but after Uber Revival, I think it sold 7 million copies. Now, the Life-Changing Magic of Tidying Up. Her core question is, does this spark joy when it comes to networking, or giving, or even taking on a project at work or outside of work?

Does this spark joy? And if not, it's okay to say no. So maybe for this person, instead of just giving across the board, really stopping for a moment and saying, does this spark joy? And would I be willing to give or do this favor even if I never got anything back? Because it's possible. If this person has a mature mindset, it's more like, well, I'll give if you give back to me, and that's okay.

That's fine to have that. But in that case, for example, I don't like emailing people saying I hate the phrase can I pick your brain into some invasives? So I'll email here. A friend tours as I call them, and I set up 3030 calls and I'll say, hey, I would love it if you could help me brainstorm or help me talk this through for 30 minutes, and then I'm happy to help you brainstorm something for 30 minutes. And that's the way to set up an exchange right off the bat in a matter kind of way.

Anita Brick: I like that idea. I remember when I first sampled Adam's book long before I ever spoke to him. At the beginning, he's a little mischievous, and he says, you know, the givers are in the bottom quartile of success and happiness, and then you turn the page or a couple of pages later and it said, and they're also at the top quartile, but it depends whether you are discerning or not.

So thank you for referencing that. This is from another. I think this is a very tricky question, he said. You work hard to progress in your career and actually reach the executive leadership levels in your function. Then you realize that your skills are good, functional, but you're a dinosaur when it comes to technology trends. Now you're out of a job and find it difficult to get to the next break at the levels that you were before. How do you pivot from there?

Jenny Blake: I think this person is very adept at just describing the gap. So anytime we pivot, there's a gap. That's where you are now and where you want to be. And that gap can include people, ways to kind of expand your connection or your network and skill gap. So in some cases it may be making more of a practice.

I read several industry newsletters. I read because when I worked at Google, I worked at the epicenter of what's new and what's going to be coming out. And I was really worried actually, when I left, was I going to become out of touch? So I read a Fast company, I read Wired, I subscribe to a newsletter called The Hustle and it's the Hustle Echo, and it has tech news every day and what's going on in new apps.

Who's up, who's down? What are the scandals? You know, even that practice of following tech news kind of gives me a heads up on, well, what apps or skills are coming down the pike. This can't just be willy nilly. Like go go learn every single app and every trend by keeping a pulse of what's out there. Different things will cross your threshold where you realize, oh, that sounds really interesting.

I would love to learn more about that, or I would love to go take a workshop on that and so it's about connecting what's out there and what's emerging to your existing strengths and to where you want to end up, what type of role you would be most excited to be in my mom, her advice to her friends is just keep up with whatever your kids are doing. Just ask them. Check in every now and then with peers. A lot of companies now are doing what they call reverse mentoring, where the more senior person gives career advice and the more junior person is giving tech tutorials and tech advice, I think it's just knowing, well, what are your gaps like this person already described, and then be proactive about how you can fill them.

And I know it's easy to get discouraged and to feel like that gap is insurmountable, but if you connect it to your strengths and to what interests you, it will be more fun to fill it.

Anita Brick: I would agree, and I like the idea of attending events, and I believe that this person is out in Silicon Valley and when you attend them, certainly you get content, which is great, but you also have the opportunity to interact with maybe new and different people that you can learn from, but maybe build relationships, correct?

Jenny Blake: Yes, absolutely.

Anita Brick: Got time for a couple more questions?

Jenny Blake: Sure, yeah. This is great so far.

Anita Brick: Okay. Good and bad. I asked the question and I thought it was a really good question. And it's one that I actually hear in one form or another almost every week. I would say I like the idea of a side hustle. And yet my best skills are what my employer pays me to do. What are the ways you've seen people use their paid for strengths without creating a conflict of interest?

Jenny Blake: Well, it's great news that this person is being paid for what they're best that I've been. That's already a huge win. I've seen people with great success. The side project can be at work. So in the book I tell the story of Seth Marvin. He used to be a search quality engineer, reviewing the worst offensive websites on the internet and deciding which ones could stay and which ones had to be banned.

Imagine that job and what he had to see. And he was really passionate. He had this personal mission to make the world a better place. So he started a 10% project at work called Google Search to have all employees volunteer on the same day of the year, and it grew and grew over time. It started as a really a side thing, with one day for thousands of dollars and a group of 7000 Googlers, the next year, 14,000 a few years later.

And now Seth's full time job is managing Google's volunteer outreach, and that role would not have been an option. It didn't exist when Seth started at the company, so that's an example of why he doesn't want to leave. He didn't have an interest, at least not yet. And he's been there over ten years to say, okay, I love volunteer work.

I'm going to leave and start a nonprofit, or I'm going to start a side hustle or volunteer gig on the side. He did it within the company, and I was just able to grow it into a role that he loves. And I think that's amazing. Like, there's no reason not to do that or to feel like you have to have a side hustle outside of work.

Where a side hustle is helpful is if there's a part of you that is not being expressed on the job, but you don't want to have the pressure of making it a full time thing, and it's just nice to have a little extra income, whether it's selling jewelry or I used to do HTML and web development tutoring for small business owners, I enjoy testing things and earning a little extra income, and for some people, it just takes the pressure off of their day job having to provide all of their vocational fulfillment, even by one hour a week.

Sometimes that takes the pressure off of feeling restless, or like you're not growing as much as you want to at your day job.

Anita Brick: What if what if this alum wants to do a side hustle, like you said, maybe for a bit of extra income? Have you seen people do that where they're leveraging the same skills? Do they choose a different audience? What have you seen people do? So there isn't a conflict of interest.

Jenny Blake: It just depends on the nature of the work and the company. So some companies are really open, but for some companies it's in their employment contract that any IP you create while you work there, they own which would be a tricky situation. My friend Rachel, she's at Google. She just wrote a book called Pause on Taking Sabbatical.

She's still working at Google, but she wanted to write this on the side. And so she made her manager aware. It's not a secret. It's very open. Hey, I'm working on this thing so you could get their blessing and just bring this to your employer I'm really interested in, or I'm going to be taking on some work on weekends.

They won't have anything, any interference with my day job. But are you okay with this? You don't have to do that. But if they would catch wind of it or if it's in your contract somehow at that point you got to get into the specifics of your employment contract, the nature of the work. If there really is a conflict of interest, and then asking the question, how could I proceed in a way where I feel fully in integrity and there's no conflict of interest? So maybe you map out what are the gray areas and what are the green lights. Go. No problem.

Anita Brick: Areas. Got it. Very good advice. This has been great. Clearly you're very passionate about this and clearly you have a depth of knowledge and really practical ideas. Very very helpful. I'm sure that people will enjoy this a lot. If you think about someone who is about to embark on a pivot, what are the top three things that you would advise someone to do to make that pivot successful?

Jenny Blake: Well, thank you for the kind words and really for all these outstanding questions. This has been so fun. The top three things one. Don't take it personally because I did this. There's nothing wrong with you. It's not a problem. It doesn't have to be anything you did wrong or some kind of personal shortcoming. Figure out a pivot point.

Celebrate it. Celebrate it. But you've outgrown your previous career incarnation and you're ready for something new. And then the second, it's the plant stage. It's what's working. And where do I want to end up a year from now? That is so critical and it really helps bracket the pivot where you are now, what success looks like now. You know that any experiments you run can serve one of those two things.

And so the third piece of advice is really have fun with the experiment. Come up with several small next steps, really small that you could start testing some of your hypotheses about what success looks like. Have fun with the process, like take the pressure off to have the answer to your pivot up front and instead be looking at one small next step of one small experiment at a time.

Or like we talked about, several. But if you feel overwhelmed, just make it smaller and trust that the momentum will build as you keep taking those small steps.

Anita Brick: Agree. Thank you again. Thank you so much. Pivot is a really wonderful read and very, very practical. I know there are a lot of good resources at Pivotmethod.com. Thanks so much, Jenny.

Jenny Blake: Thank you so much, Anita, and big thanks to everybody for listening.

Anita Brick:Thank you all for listening. This is Anita Brick with CareerCast at Chicago Booth. Keep advancing.