Successful Transitions Out and In

Anita Brick: Hi, this is Anita Brick and welcome to CareerCast at Chicago Booth. To help you advance in your career. Today, we're delighted to be speaking with Alicia Bassuk, who is an executive coach and strategic advisor to leaders and their teams internationally. She provides clients guidance in maximizing individual effectiveness and optimizing team cohesion. Her clients include Barclays, McKinsey, Google, the United Nations, and MIT Media Lab. She is a contributor to the Harvard Business Review blog and an alumna of Chicago Blues. Thank you so much for making the time today. This topic of transitioning outside and in and having it be successful actually sparked a lot of interesting conversations by email to me and a little controversy.

Alicia Bassuk: Fascinating topic and everybody deals with it at some point. I'm happy to help you review that.

Anita Brick: Okay. Wonderful. The world has changed a lot, even in the last five years. Today, if you look at the landscape because you have that global perspective, what do you believe are three critical things to consider before even contemplating a transition?

Alicia Bassuk: First, you want to be really introspective and figure out if you're really ready for a transition, because a transition requires a lot of effort and it's a lot of risk. If you're happy where you are and you have a lot of opportunities coming down the path, then you should definitely pause and make sure that you're ready to embark on the transition.

The second piece is when you've decided that you're really ready. There's a sense of adventure about it, the discovery of what you want to do next, and actually getting the right opportunities lined up. It should be one of the greatest explorations of this stage of your career. It's fun. Its world is expanding. You're meeting a lot of new people.

You're learning about different industries or different parts of your industry. Getting in the right mindset to have that be a positive experience rather than a stressful one. That terrain view is super important. And then the third one is, you know, this is your big shot. So whatever that next thing is, there's opportunity cost. You're not doing something else, really being sure that what you decide on is going to be fulfilling, it's going to be meaningful, is going to reward you in the ways that you're looking for is crucial.

Anita Brick: Okay, good. That's a great starting point. One of the evening MBA students asked a question, and it sounds like he might move around a little bit. So he said, as someone who has worked in startups and in established businesses over the years, I find myself always looking ahead for what's next and really can't stay anywhere for too long. Any insights on when you know that it's time to make the next step?

Alicia Bassuk: There are a couple different ways to look at this. One is that if you're in the right job, in the right company, you'll just know it's going to feel really good. I like to use Suzanne Motion and Rachel Bellows terms. You're working in your genius and you just know it. You know that you're playing to all your strengths, and it's a place where you are achieving flow while you're doing your work.

If you're not feeling that there is something out there that will give that to you. One thing to consider is if I'm not working on my genius, can I figure out what that is and then go for it? Actually, Tess Vigeland, who was in the marketplace, she left there and she just published a book called leap. She talks about how, you know, she just kept saying to yourself, you know, I really should go.

I really should go. But this is such a sweet job. This is kind of a dream job. I can't go, but I really should go. I think that's actually a book worth reading at this stage. If you're in your job and it really is the dream job, you want to know that you've given it all you can in reaching your full potential in that job.

Once you've checked all the boxes on that checklist of making your greatest effort to make the most out of it, that's the point where you just say, okay, I gave it my best. It may look like the dream job on paper, but it's just not working for me. And I know there's something better out there and I'm going to go get it. Well, you know, it was interesting.

Anita Brick: There was a question. I started this new role, and I know right away that it's not the right one for me. What do you suggest when someone says, I thought this was the right move for me, it looked like it had everything going for it, for me, for where I contribute, and also where I thought that I could really, as you said, use my genius. It turns out not to be that way. So what do you do when you transition? And it's only been a month and you need to transition out.

Alicia Bassuk: This is a tough situation, and it's why it's so important that you interview your potential employer for all the things not only like what is this job, but who's the team I'll be working with and what's the strategy the company is using, and what are the values of this company, and what's the culture you want to really know what you're getting yourself into?

That said, even if you do all that, this can happen. So it will minimize the risk of it happening. If you're sure that there's really no way to turn it around, you know? And again, it depends on what your financial situation is. A best case scenario is to go back to your previous employer and find out if you can go back to that position, or just start another search immediately and get ready to launch into the next stage.

The important part there is your narrative. I often interview senior hires as part of a team with my clients, and I'll tell you the narrative of why you left one place to go to another, especially in these sensitive situations where you're only someplace for a very short time. How you tell that story in these interviews, I would hear people say it in a really negative way or sort of nebulous way.

You'll get dinged every time in an interview for that. You want to be honest and you want to be positive. So it's a story of realization and pursuing opportunities. Really. The last pieces that if you've only been at that place for a month and you find another job quickly, a great technique is if there's any time in between two gigs, if you could do a little bit of consulting, then maybe you won't even mention that you took a job for a month that didn't work out. You would just talk about your consulting clients that you fostered during that same time period.

Anita Brick: That's a good point. One question, though. I mean, I think it's great if you can find another job really quickly and have the consulting in between. There was another alum who asked, I've had this now, a history of consulting or contractual employment, and I want to move to full time employment in another organization. What would you suggest that I do to be taken seriously and convert what has been a contract job into a full time employee?

Alicia Bassuk: What I always say about nailing a job interview is that there's three things that need to happen. One is that you have to show that you have expertise in the area that they're looking for. The second thing is that you're pleasant to work with to be a positive experience, to work with you. The third is that you're the lowest risk proposition.

If you've been a consultant to a company, presuming that you did good work, they enjoyed working with you enough that they're going to interview you full time role, you almost automatically fall into the last category, which is the lowest risk proposition because you're a known entity and they've had a positive experience working with you. First of all, you have to approach them and let them know that you're interested.

Two areas of risk that they'll see in you. One is that maybe you're not the type that's going to enjoy a full time job. If you've been a consultant, are you sure that you're going to really integrate yourself well as a full time person at that company? And so in your narrative, you want to actually anticipate that. And talk about it right up front with them.

You expose that risk and address it right away. And the second thing is, are you going to be too expensive? Because usually consultants are paid more than a salaried employee. And so the same thing. Just go ahead, put it out there, blow the thing wide open. That will take care of that third category, and you'll have a nice chance of transitioning into a full time employee for your client, if actually that's what they're looking for.

Now, if the person wants to take that contractual experience in one company and leverage it into another, it would seem to me that they'd want you to go in a similar function and or industry to, again, lower that data, lower the risk. Are there any other things to consider in terms of mitigating risk for a potential employer?

I don't want to deter people from going into a role where they haven't been consulting exactly in that role, but they want to go for it because people are generally in one of two camps when they're hiring. There's one camp, and actually there's trends. Depending on how the economy and stuff this thing ebbs and flows of which camp is bigger.

But there's a camp of people who want to hire someone who's already shown expertise in that exact job. They are inflexible about that. And then there's another camp that says, you know what? I want to just hire someone that I know I can throw anything at them, and I'm going to trust that they're going to figure it out.

You won't know ahead of time. They're all going to say that they want experience, that there may be hints at the job description that say related experiences are also relevant and things like that. And you can look out for that, or just talk with people and learn more about what their culture is. I don't want to deter people from going for it in related fields.

Got it. Other ways to minimize risk. The best way is tell stories in enough detail that it sounds authentic because it is, and you're actually explaining what your internal experience of the event was so that the person interviewing you actually gets it exactly when your moment happened there, whether it was getting over a management challenge or being creative to find a solution for a client.

If you can answer that in a story of something that really happened for you and narrate from a more personal place about this professional experience that goes a really long way and in minimizing risk as well.

Anita Brick: You're absolutely right. Some people don't like that vulnerability, but I have seen over and over again that if you just listen, okay, I've done this and this and this, it's a whole catalog of things. There's no connection. And when there's no connection, there's not really an incentive either to continue the process or to hire you.

Alicia Bassuk: Right.

Anita Brick: So let's look at the flip of that. And this is actually I think a fairly unusual question for an alum. The alum said, well, looking for part time work in retail and hospitality, I have found that a basic obstacle is trying to figure out how to get past the online application process. Since my education is an MBA in finance and a BA in physics and experience mostly corporate planning roles, they don't seem to be relevant in these positions.

I suspect that employers might decide that they want to hang in there long enough and send my application to that electronic blackhole. Any suggestions on how to break through that? And at least get myself in front of HR or a hiring manager?

Alicia Bassuk: This is a challenge. I talked about the two camps of people who are hiring, the technology that is used to filter those resumes is designed for that first camp of people who want the exact experience. I suspect some time in the next couple of years, the technology will improve. And the second camp of employers who want to just try, people who are well-rounded and seem able to learn quickly.

I think the technology will catch up to give those people a chance to get through the filters now too. Anyway, for now, you want to use the best old school technique and you'll want to use it even when the technology gets better, because there's nothing that's ever going to surpass this. And that is mutually enriching conversations wherever you go, people that you meet, that you respect, that inspire you, that are doing interesting work, it doesn't matter if they're in the field or at the company that you're interested in.

They're just people who you appreciate in life. And what you want to do is have mutually enriching conversations. And what that means is conversations where you feel that you are learning from the conversation, and that they are learning from the conversation. You are enjoying the conversation. They're enjoying the conversation. You walk away feeling good. They walk away feeling good.

That's the kind of person that's going to think of you in a positive light. This is very important if you approach that in a needy or opportunistic way, it's going to go flat. You're done. Exactly what you want to do is do it for the sake of the mutually enriching conversation, for the curiosity of who this person is and how they have accomplished what they've accomplished, and what are they up to next?

If you do that without any media opportunistic motive, what you'll be doing is building relationships. You never know what's around the corner, though. You're not doing it for the sake of what's around the corner. It's just how life goes that people end up hearing about someone else who's hiring and they think, okay, who do I know that might be interested?

Maybe they'll think of you. And this happens in very direct ways. Indirectly, they may introduce you to someone else, and that person may interest you in that person. And then finally, the 15 production wants to interview you for the job of your dreams. You just don't know what's around the corner.

Oh, absolutely. To shift gears a little bit, but to kind of follow on with what you just said, there are a couple of questions around communication. And one was how do you bridge your personal network into a professional network? And the other part was, how do you cold call to get to opportunities? And maybe we can put those together because I don't know about you, but I'm not a big fan of cold calling because it's really too hard.

Cold calling is one of those words that I don't use. Another word I don't use is networking, because those words, they're so overused and they have become imbued with neediness and opportunism. Yes, instead of cold calling, I say approaching new people. So to answer the first part of your question, how do you transition a personal relationship into a professional? These things can't be forced.

You're going along the path. You're having mutually enriching conversations. A lot of times we have this thing that I call lazy brain, where we just kick back and use all our old patterns of communication, old stories that we tell when we have a lazy brain. We miss windows of opportunity that open for a short time in conversations where we can really show who we are, what our strengths are, what makes us feel passionate.

If you are in those conversations and your brain is fully engaged and you have everything firing at the same time, you'll find these windows when you're talking about personal stuff, to share stories about your education, your work teams that you've been on, they'll be something that will just naturally transition and build towards a more professional conversation. Maybe Bill mentioned someone or something or an event, and you'll find a way to connect the two and move the balance over to have more professional conversations with that person.

In terms of connecting with someone who you haven't talked with before, this has changed a lot. I built my career in part off of this because it was just on the cusp of when everything changed with technology, so much so that when I called someone and said, I'm a student at the University of Chicago, those sea level execs, they weren't getting those phone calls more than, you know, once or twice a month from people who they didn't know.

So this is a novel thing, and I had a good shot at getting their attention. You cannot do that anymore. It's done. And so what do you do? The only thing you can do, and you had to do this back then too, is do your research, know exactly what your interest is and talk to that person. What you can bring to that conversation.

It takes a lot of initiative and you want to be creative. You don't want to have an angle that every other person has. It has to be something that based on your experiences and your strengths, you bring to this conversation. And then it's a matter of how do you cross paths with someone in a position that you want to get in front of?

You have to go out into the world in a way that is engaging for you. Do the things that you enjoy, get deep into them. Broaden the sets of experience you're having within your interests area. It doesn't matter what that interest is. There are senior level folks that can hire at any event. Pretty much not every single one, but pretty much if you really are going to the events that interest you and then chat it up with people and have a great time and make those connections and believe you really believe that things might happen. But again, do it because you're just enjoying that moment, right? Well, it's true.

Anita Brick: Because if you don't, the other person isn't going to be interested in you. Like you said before, if you go in there in a very opportunistic way. Not that you should be focused, but if you go in in a very opportunistic way, the other person is going to catch that straight away and they'll view you as someone who is taking but not giving or reciprocating in any way.

And that usually derails the beginning of a relationship before it ever gets going. And having those conversations. It's amazing what will capture someone's imagination. And when they do, if they have those good feelings, then we'll map it back on to you, which is good for you.

Alicia Bassuk: Yeah. You know, I've done some training for companies based on a really nice read called The Trusted Advisor. There's an equation, the trust equation, that is really important for these conversations. For all the conversations that we've discussed today, for your interviews, for meeting new people, for moving from personal professional, no matter what you want to communicate that you're trustworthy.

And so how do you do that? The equation for trust is credibility plus reliability plus he calls it intimacy. I always change it to relatability because I think it's messy. It's kind of a funny word to use in a professional context. And it's all over self orientation. And so just to quickly break down those terms, credibility is I'm an expert at what I do.

Reliability is you can count on me to get it to the way you want it. And on time related ability you can communicate with me in a way that is pleasant for both of us, and then it's all over, like a divided sign, you know, self orientation. And so self orientation is am I in it for me or for you? The closer you can get your self orientation to zero meaning I'm thinking about your wind. I want to see how I can add value to you. I'm not here just for me or a lot. For me. It's the hardest to do. It's the one that requires the most self examination and leads to the most growth.

Anita Brick: It is so fundamental. The whole numerator, they get right most of the time, but the denominator is so big it basically squeezes out or eclipses all that good stuff that they do. So they're not taken seriously. And that transition in and out is really hard because there's so many barriers in the mind of the hiring manager or HR that preclude that. Switching gears for just a quick second here, someone asked, and I think this is actually someone who has been out of the workforce for a while who actually wants to jump back in. And she said, what's the best way to describe your thinking and planning process about job reentry?

Alicia Bassuk: But I always tell people that have been out of the workforce before you start interviewing. If you have the luxury of any time before you start interviewing, if there's any way that you can actually start doing some kind of work, even if you have the luxury where you can volunteer. But doing the kind of work that you want to do, or even if you're not paid at a market rate, whatever you can do to start getting yourself back to work, that can be stuff at an organization, but it can also be as a consultant.

It's mainstream now to define consultants in a lot of different ways. If you don't know where to start in terms of building a client base. So I'll just talk a little bit about how you can build a little tiny client base as a consultant to give yourself a little bit of runway before you get into the interview mode.

Think first about friends and family. They sometimes will have a need for what you have to offer, and they're the ones that will give you a shot. Maybe it's a low risk project for them. Maybe it's something that doesn't have a tight timeline. Maybe it's something they wouldn't have done otherwise. But since you're not going to be charging them market rate, they'll go ahead and do it.

Maybe they just want to help. It's just goodwill. They probably trust you already. It's family and friends. Those are the ones to go to. The ones that do. If you do go with this consulting model, I always say make sure you are compensated, because if you're going to talk about it in a professional context in an interview, it'll fit within you differently and they'll hear it differently.

So you want to be compensated. Something for your work, but the more the better. I always say, get some of those under your belt so that when you're in the interview, the focus isn't on the fact that you did something years ago, you worked, and it's not on what you didn't do or did do while you were not in the outside of the house workplace.

The focus is on interesting projects that you're currently working on, and you're building up your practice and you're getting exposed to what's happening here and now in your field. Don't not interview. If you don't have current work that you can talk about, go ahead with an interview. Make sure that you've read all the current blogs and the important journals in your field.

Go out and just have conversations with people who are working in your field and be able to talk about what's interesting about what you're hearing is going on in the field, what you're reading about in whatever ways you can immerse yourself before an interview, it will give you material to talk about in the interview, and you'll be able to show who you are. Professional and what strengths you bring through those stories and that content that you're creating for yourself.

Anita Brick: That's great. And whether it's volunteering or sometimes it's with a nonprofit, but sometimes there are lots of very robust incubators and accelerators around this. It was a related question from an MBA student, and he said, you know, I'm contemplating a transition into a new industry. What kind of pay cut should I expect? And then how do I negotiate once I have some experience? So I'm market competitive?

Alicia Bassuk: There's no way to just give some blanket answer to this question. Totally agree. The question I can answer that is relevant to this is how do you know what to expect? And that is, ask yourself what you can tolerate. So you have to make a very real life decision about what you can afford and for how long you can afford that, and what feels fair to you.

What will motivate you to get up every morning and go do that thing? Either it's motivating you for right now because of financial peace or the job itself, or the people or something like that, or it's a stepping stone to something and that motivates you, that next thing is motivating you. So for some people, it's really just the financial peace that motivates them.

And then, you know, you have to make sure that that's there for you. If you're going to get up every day and go to that job, there are no guarantees. I've heard a lot of stories of people who are told, oh, start with this. And as soon as this senior person steps away will move you into that role, or as soon as this happens, we're going to reorg and then you'll have this other role. There's no guarantee that those things will happen, that you're taking the job that you're being offered with the job description that you're being offered, and then all bets are off. I don't want that to dissuade anybody from going for it. Just go in with your eyes wide open.

Anita Brick: Well, absolutely. And I think the other part, which is a point that you made earlier, is some of how well you will be received and also how much coffee you're going to receive. You can impact that by both the words of your narrative and the delivery of your narrative.

Alicia Bassuk: Absolutely. You present yourself as sophisticated and curious and someone who takes initiative, the potential employer that is interested in hiring you. If you come across in all those ways and you meet all the boxes that they want to check, their biggest fear is that you're going to accept another offer before they put theirs on the table. Keep that in mind too.

Anita Brick: Yeah, I agree, there is an evening student who is currently in consulting and working for a fairly substantial consulting firm, and aspires to move into executive leadership in industry. And his question is what indicator should I keep in mind and what should I prepare myself for for that new role while still in consulting? So in other words, what do you advise me to do to make sure that I'm preparing myself? So when the time is right, I can make that transition smoothly?

Alicia Bassuk: Two things that are true for senior consulting are. One is that you don't even realize how little exposure you have to the entire world of industry. You focus so much on the industries that you have worked in through your consulting firm. First thing is, make sure you step outside of those and take a look at all the other industries that are out there, because they all need senior leadership and they all need people who have become senior partners at consulting firms.

Don't limit yourself to just the clients that you've had or just the industries that you have. They're all interested in you. The second thing is, if you are really good, your clients are going to make you job offers. While you're at the consulting firm, the client will pull you aside and tell you if you're ever ready to leave.

We would love to hire you. So if you're not getting those offers, either you're not senior enough yet or something's off and you might want to talk to someone who does professional development at your firm to try to pinpoint what that is. That's all because your peers are getting those offers in terms of how do you prepare yourself so that when you are ready to step into that executive role, pay attention to how the two executives at the client and at your firm and any other senior executives that you come across have the opportunity to get a close look at, really like scrutinize with a magnifying glass, how they're doing, what they do, what's success

for what's not successful. And then it's the same old cliche. Things start acting like you already have that job. Start acting like you are a senior at a firm, that you start to be your consultant. You don't want to be out of line for the job that you actually have. But there are opportunities within your consulting life where you can start practicing what it's like to be a senior in the way that you run your team, and the way that you prepare for and run meetings in the way that you relate to clients and, practice, practice, practice.

Anita Brick: Good point. So here are a couple of challenges that actually two different alumni are facing. One person said, I'm transitioning into a new job, which means a new environment. And I'm now at the mid-level leadership position, which is new for me. Challenge is that senior leadership is in flux and the juniors are looking for a clear direction. What would you recommend that I do to navigate these somewhat conflicting expectations?

Alicia Bassuk: This is a challenging situation and it's not uncommon. It depends on what kind of company culture you're in. In an ideal scenario, you have to have a culture with a lot of trust, currency and really strong communication. And so it would be totally appropriate to approach your senior manager or, you know, even skip level in some way that is appropriate and ask questions that you have about whatever it is that you're looking for guidance on.

More typical is that it is not very transparent and there is not very open communication. In this case, you want to just keep your eyes peeled, because there may be 1 or 2 people that are more transparent and more open, and they may be available for guidance. No matter what these things happen there, shake up. Just brace yourself. Things settle down. Eventually. Those that handle it gracefully are noticed for their grace, and those who are stressed out or gossip or change the way they're interacting with people that's noticed. To really.

Anita Brick: Excellent point. And today especially resilience is such a high priority quality in a person because the only thing we know not to sound like cliche, but the only thing we know for sure is that change is here and it's going to continue to be here. Along those same lines, there was another alum who said, I'm transitioning into a new role. I'm going to be leaving my previous role, but I'm still in the same company and no one's been hired for that. My previous role. I'm concerned that I'm going to try to do both roles or be pressured into doing both roles, and I will do neither.

Alicia Bassuk: Well, yeah, I need to.

Anita Brick: Tips for how to close the door on the old role and not get stuck doing both. And my biggest concern is I'm just not going to excel if I'm trying to do both.

Alicia Bassuk: Tricky situation. Also, Comments. There are a few things you can do. One thing you can use before you wrap up that role. Delegate as much as you can to people who are junior to you or to your peers, so that you're making that job smaller every single day so that whatever is left in that role is easier for you to handle.

The second thing that you can do is if they won't set aside a budget to hire someone for that role, ask for a consulting budget, because often you can fill that on some temporary basis and it comes out of a different budget line. So a lot of people might think, well, if they can't afford to hire someone, certainly they want her as a consultant.

It doesn't work like that necessarily. Also, there are some cultures that are not pro hiring consultants. There's a mandate from the top that we're going to do everything in-house. So it's worth asking in an appropriate way. The last thing is you want to be entrepreneurial. You might be the biggest corporate environment, but still, if you want to compete, if you want to have that edge, you're going to have to be entrepreneurial.

And part of being entrepreneurial is wearing a lot of hats. So if none of this makes work, or you're still left holding a pretty big bag with the other role, just be as entrepreneurial as you can. Wear those hats with pride and with gusto. And if you're senior management, if they're good, they're going to notice that you're doing both jobs and they will want to alleviate you either by taking some on themselves or by making one of those other scenarios happen for you.

Anita Brick: It's a really good point. And something else that I've seen, which actually can work really well for all parties. Sometimes there is someone within the organization who wants to almost do an internal internship. They want to have an opportunity to do a project in a different functional area within the company. I've seen MBA students do this, and even alumni actually, where they're able to do that, it gives them just like you said, with someone reentering, it gives them a solid experience in a new function or a new area within the same function, and they're able to leverage that in their narrative. So that might be another way to.

Alicia Bassuk: Do this too. Indeed. That's a great one. Good.

Anita Brick: Do you have time for one more question?

Alicia Bassuk: Sure.

Anita Brick: One of the things we started here, and I really like to wrap up these episodes with kind of a summary. So what are three things that you would advise someone who's either contemplating or in the midst of a transition? What action would you suggest that they do starting right now?

Alicia Bassuk: Well, assuming that they're doing the basic things like, you know, researching different companies and, you know, getting word out and working on their resume, I'm not going to review those things. I'm going to go with sort of a deeper level of what they can do beyond the basic pieces that have to be put into place. The first thing is to build interest in a person as you could possibly be in your professional life, even if you are currently out of the workforce.

So be as interesting as you possibly can be. Just means expect a slice and catalog it. Like you know what? This would make a really good story. I don't know one. I might use it tomorrow in my interview. I might use it in five years when something related happens. But this is something I want to make sure to remember, because there's an interesting lesson to be learned here, or I've an interesting insight about it, or I've observed something unique here.

So it could be something very basic in your daily life. But I encourage everyone to put on that kind of a lens and practice telling stories about those things. And that leads to my second point, which is practice having mutually enriching conversations. Use these things that you're noticing in your daily life as a way to practice mutually enriching conversations.

You're telling stories about what you've observed, what your insight is, what you became curious about, practices with friends, with colleagues, with someone in the elevator. If it's appropriate, with someone that you meet at a party, it's everybody who you're talking with is fair game to practice. Having a mutually enriching conversation, if appropriate. The third one takes time to reflect.

I am sort of naturally a Buddhist, and I just think the thing that we use most of our working hours for certainly are using most of their waking hours working and, you know, make it count. I wrote an article with Marshall Goldsmith called Meaning at Work. These are kinds of things that people in leadership find meaningful at work.

It's not just the financial reward. It's not just the actual work you're doing. It's these other things to figure out what is meaningful to you. And that will take deep reflection and dig deep and struggle with it and talk about it with people that you respect. Because life is short, everything is ephemeral. And if you're going to be using all those hours, find something that feels meaningful to you and there's no judgment about what that thing is. It's just whatever is meaningful to you and then go get it. If it's about going after something that is meaningful, you find a way and go get it. That will lead to the most fulfillment for you to really find happiness at work. And that's what I want for everybody.

Anita Brick: Oh that's great. What a great way to end your fantasy. By the way, this is a really fun call. And thank you for doing this. I love the fresh approach that you take and it's just so genuine and authentic. And that little boost at the end, you don't have it. Just go for it and I love that. Thank you so very much for doing this.

Alicia Bassuk: Well thank you. I really enjoyed this interview. Great.

Anita Brick: Thanks again and thank you all for listening. This is Anita Brick with CareerCast at Chicago Booth. Keep advancing.