Succeeding in a New Job During the First Three Months

Anita Brick: Hi, this is Anita Brick, and welcome to CareerCast at Chicago Booth to help you advance in your career. Today we're speaking with Marc Effron, who is vice president of talent management for Avon Products, where he is accountable to build quality and depth of Avon leaders.

In addition, Marc, in the past, actually started and led the Global Leadership Consulting Practice at Hewitt Associates, where he created an amazing study … I remember, Marc, that's when you and I first met about companies and how they really grow and develop their leaders, which became the book Leading the Way.

Marc has an undergraduate degree in political science from the University of Washington and an MBA with honors from Yale School of Management. Marc, thanks so much for making the time.

Marc Effron: My pleasure. Thank you.

Anita Brick: I know that a lot of people are losing their jobs, but there are also people who are starting jobs. And I think one of the things, in addition to students who may be graduating and going into a job, there are people with a lot more experience who are also landing positions right now. People talk about, you know, how critical those first three months are.I think it's even more critical today. And people talk about onboarding. What does it mean, actually?

Marc Effron: Sure. I think people do talk about onboarding in many different ways. How I would define it, and how we would define it here at Avon, is really the successful transition into a new role—success defined fairly broadly, meaning that you understand the business but also the culture, the political or the informal nature of the organization. And you've built the relationships which are really going to be the foundation for your success going forward.

And there is a process that we use to ensure that each of those touchpoints are hit. But at the end of the day, what we care most about is that you understand what the company's all about, who the key leaders are, and you've really built those relationships that will propel you to success.

Anita Brick: I think there's a little bit of confusion, at least from some of the people that I talk to. It’s like, OK, does the company—are they responsible for it? Is the employee responsible for it? Who has what role?

Marc Effron: I think this goes back to similar debates about things like who's responsible for development, the employee or the organization? If you look at an employee as—not to put it too crassly, but as an asset—I prefer to actually manage my assets. We do believe that the organization is responsible to manage the process that effectively brings an associate into a new role.

Obviously, the associate has to be an active and willing participant in that, but we're going to assume that we know more about onboarding than the average manager does. And so we believe that it should be the organization who says, here is a process that we know will help you be successful in this new role if it's followed. And we hope that managers will actively participate in that.

Anita Brick: What if I'm starting a new job? The offer’s been made to me. They say, well, show up on March 30 and we'll get going then. If you were in that position, what would you be doing differently than just waiting until March 30?

Marc Effron: Well, there are a few things that are worth trying, and it's going to depend on each company whether they work or not. I would try to walk in the front door on day one with as much information as possible, not only about the company and its business—which I'm sure that a Booth graduate will pick up extraordinarily fast—but to really accelerate your effectiveness, understanding the culture of the organization and how you really fit in that culture.

You might be brought in because you're someone who is an ideal fit with the culture. If they’re a fast-moving entrepreneurial person, you are too. If they're a more established firm, then maybe you're kind of more of a staid manager, or maybe you're being brought in to actually challenge that culture.

And so really understand: what am I stepping into? What is the informal organization? What are the unwritten rules? How does this place operate, and how do I or how will I fit most effectively into that? And where will there be a bit of a rub?

You know, none of us is going to fit perfectly into any company culture. And the extent you can understand what that culture is and be really self-aware about the types of places you like to work—your own style as a leader and how you appear to others—and really try to identify where do I think I'll fit in very well? Where will I really be challenged in this culture? The more full understanding you have of that, the more effective you're going to be day one.

That is where we tend to see most new leaders fail. You rarely read a Wall Street Journal article that says, Susie Smith has left after six months because she didn't know how to do finance. It’s, Susie Smith left after six months because of the fact that she didn't get along with people, didn't fit with a culture, didn't build the right relationships.

Anita Brick: As a potential employee, wouldn't you try to figure that out before you even accepted the job?

Marc Effron: Ideally, yes. Now I think that saying, Sounds good enough. I'll grab that—Yeah, you do the best that you can in that interview process, and you want to make sure there's a basic good fit between your interests and the company's interests. And I think that's great for saying, in general, can I succeed here? Kind of separating the wheat from the chaff.

What we need to get down to is an operational level of culture. Do people go to lunch together, be in your offices, show up on time for meetings, or can I show up three minutes late? The types of things that may sound minor, but if you know ahead of time, can really smooth entry into the place.

Anita Brick: What are some things that you've seen with leaders that you've worked with? You know, new employees, really at any level, mistakes that they made that they could have avoided either by doing more due diligence upfront or through some other means?

Marc Effron: Well, I'll tell you something that used to happen fairly frequently at Avon. I've only been here about four years with many other new leaders who have joined. I've heard similar stories. Avon is a 122-year-old company that has been built on relationships, and while every company says, hey, relationships are the most important thing to us, this is an organization that truly is the case.

Work gets done because you know people, almost in the absence sometimes of processes. I think the challenge is that at this organization, if you come from the outside, you often lead with your resume. You walk in the door and say, hi, I'm Mark Effron, I'm good at X, Y, and Z. Let's get to work. The challenge is that at Avon, the first thing people want to know is who you are.

They assume that you're good at what you do. They want to know you as a person. They want to know that you respect the organization, that you're here because you want to be part of something larger. It's very common, especially for a bright young MBA, to step into the organization and say, hey, let's hit the ground running.

They'll go along for 3 or 4 months and wonder why they aren't getting much traction. Someone will kind of pull them aside and say, here's what you need to do. You need to actually circle back, meet many more people than you have so far, build those relationships, and you'll find everything you've been trying to get done will happen much more easily.

And I think we've done a better job now at putting that information up front in our recruiting process. But it still is a fairly consistent theme with new leaders coming into Avon. So that's one example, but I would suggest that most companies have some sort of unique twist in their culture that is just like that. It could be the exact opposite—that the company you're joining really couldn't care less about your personal or family life, and they want you to get to work.

Therefore, you know, it's probably best not to share as much and focus more on what those first 30 day deliverables are.

Anita Brick: What kinds of things could you do from the time you accept the offer to the time you actually start—which could be a couple weeks, more likely it's a month or more—but what are the things that you would do pre walking in the door?

Marc Effron: Gathering information about the business is probably the easiest step, and you’ve probably done a lot of that in the interview process. But now that you’re an employee, the organization will be more likely to share more of that information with you. Fundamental things like organization charts, just so you understand, not only how the group is structured, but basic things like what do they call departments?

Maybe the comptroller is not called the comptroller. Just being able to walk in the front door comfortable with how your organization is structured. Where are the major locations now? Maybe this is a global organization. Do you know where the regional headquarters are, or do you know approximately what percentage of people they have in the various regions?

Do you understand the basic either means of production or primary products? You really try to walk in the door with as much that information as possible. And I think that really starts with your making a list and saying, you know, what would I like to know about this organization that I did not find out in the recruiting process, either with your hiring manager or with the recruiter to get as much of that information as possible.

I think that's why the easiest piece of information, I think the more challenging information, but the much more valuable really, is around the culture, the political aspects of the organization. And that really is held in people. So to the extent it's possible to almost extend the interview process after the offer and see if there are other people you can meet with at the organization before you join—either peers, direct reports, or just anyone else who can help inform you about, hey, what's it like to work here?

What allows people to be successful? When people trip over things, what do they tend to trip over in this organization? The extent to which you can dig into the cultural aspects through those types of meetings will be very helpful. Obviously, alumni are great if they are in that organization, and also people who have left the organization could give you some insights as to the challenges there.

If you're part of the company, you may not be quite as willing to reveal some of the warts, and those who have left might be willing to share some more insights around that.

Anita Brick: Oh, I agree, I think it's a really—it's good to get both points of view. In both cases, people who have left and people who are still there. How do you know who to ask? Because sometimes people have an axe to grind, or they're part of the PR bubble of the firm.

Marc Effron: Sure.

Anita Brick: How do you know that you're getting good information?

Marc Effron: I would say part of this is the law of large numbers. The more people you speak with, the tougher it will be for someone to actively manage the impression that they're trying to give you. If you talk to three people, then I'm sure that HR can find three people who will say all wonderful things about the organization. If you can talk to 15 people, you'll hopefully get a fairly balanced distribution of attitudes and opinions about the organization.

So I think first, large numbers are better than small numbers of individuals. And I think to the extent that you can get a sampling of the people you'll actually be working with—peers, either in your functional area or in your region; direct reports, you know, the people who you'll be interacting with every day—I think they have a more vested interest to share with you what it's actually like to work there.

Anita Brick: Good information. Two questions. In some ways they're sort of like opposite sides of the same coin. One Exec MBA student who has about 15 years of experience has already started a new job, didn't go through this pre onboarding process and is hitting a couple of snags along the way. What can he do to catch up?

Marc Effron: Never too late to do this. To me, this could be something that starts with an email to the 15 people who you want to get to know that says, you know what? One of the things I didn't do when I started here is—fill in the blank: learn more about the business, understand our culture, etc. I'd love to catch up on that.

You know, I would appreciate your help. Would you mind spending half an hour with me talking about fill in the blank? So I think that the exact same process that maybe should have been run in the first month or two, there's no bad time to start that. And hopefully people in your organization are willing to spare 20 minutes or a half an hour to help out with that.

I mean, everyone has been through that new job starting process. I think they can probably empathize with it. And no one's going to say, well, you should have learned that day two. OK. I'm sorry. You're right, I should have. Can you help me out now?

Anita Brick: Right. And depending on the culture, it might be a formal meeting or it might be lunch.

Marc Effron: Exactly. I think that's something that it's worth asking questions about. Hey, how do people get to know each other around here? Some places, you know, going out to lunch might be considered ridiculous. We're too busy to do that. Other places, there might be a level of formality that demands that there is, you know, that type of meeting.

Again, it's amazing what people will tell you if you simply ask. So my advice is always—you know, the more people you ask, the more accurate opinions you're going to get.

Anita Brick: I guess along with that, or the other side of that is a weekend student who's graduating and has received an offer for a position, and she's accepted it. But her start date isn't until early 2010. So now we have this 10-month gap from the time she was offered to the time she starts.

How can you onboard over such a long period of time without being either annoying or, I don't know, just being …

Marc Effron: Well, I think it's great to have that much time to prepare. And maybe it's a question of parceling out the types of activities that you can do versus the type that you'll need to interact with the organization to get accomplished. So learning more about the business—obviously, all the sites that everyone knows about to track how the business is doing are helpful.

And maybe it's something as light as a quarterly check-in with a hiring manager to make sure that you're current on the business development and anything new happening in that department. And then I would simply suggest that you kick that process into higher gear a month or two beforehand, and really just follow the same steps that we've been talking about so far in terms of trying to get to know the culture and the informal politics and, and start to build those relationships.

So kind of keep it warm up to the point where it's worth shifting that into higher gear. That way you look responsible and that you want to have a quarterly check-in, but no one feels like you're breathing down their neck for the better part of the year.

Anita Brick: That's a good point. All right, so let's talk about the relationship. One of the evening students said, first of all, when do you begin building your network in the new job? And then how do you do this? How do you set expectations and brand yourself? And then who should you be networking with? Because sometimes the locus of power isn't where you think it is.

Marc Effron: Great question. The first interview you have with that company is when you should start that by expressing openness to it. Hey, I want to know as much about this company as possible. What's the best way to do that? Who else can I speak with when I get there? The first day, I think the how is going to depend on whether they have a formal onboarding process that's going to guide you through this or whether you're on your own and really establish your own process.

How tends to be fairly straightforward. It is setting a meeting with individuals with a clear purpose: Hey, I'm new, I would like to learn more about X. I heard you're an expert on that particular topic. Are you willing to spare a half hour to meet with me again? I think it's important to think broadly about that. So you'll want to cover learning about the business, learning about the culture, learning about the politics or some of the informal aspects of the organization that are going to allow you to be successful.

And the brand question is an interesting one. The company will establish your brand for you based on those interactions. You'll be establishing a brand simply by reaching out to people. People will kind of label you as someone who wants to … or who is social, who wants to build relationships, who seems proactive.

From the quality of those interactions, your brand will emerge within that company. If they see you as a smart, funny, easy-to-get-along-with individual, then that's going to be your brand, and if they see you in another way, then that's going to be your brand. You do have the ability to put out the right messages. How those messages are interpreted in the company is going to be more up with the company than you.

Anita Brick: That's a good point. Some companies have formal mentoring processes. I mean they may actually have it structured in some way. If that doesn't exist, one of the evening MBA students asks, what can you do to either find an internal mentor or be attractive so that an internal mentor finds you?

Marc Effron: And we all know the value of mentors. And I think for a lot of us, they've been invaluable in helping to steer us effectively through an organization. What we found at Avon and in my past lives has been that the best mentoring relationships are the ones that naturally emerge. It's almost one of those things that the harder you look for it, the harder it's going to be to find.

I think the first step is the more people who know you and who you know in the organization broadens the number of people who might raise their hand and say, I'd like to mentor this person. Going back to the first things we were talking about, the more meetings you have, the more connections you make with people, the more people can raise their hand and say, I know Anita, yeah. She seems like somebody I'd like to help succeed.

Step one is, expand that network, meet with as many people as you possibly can. I think step two is in those meetings, let people know, “Hey, I'd love to get guidance from people around here. What I'm looking for guidance on is X, Y, and Z,” and allow them to volunteer: “I'd be happy to help you with that.”

Anita Brick: When you're building these relationships, should they be with peers, with your department, across departments, with more senior management, if the company is not actually structuring that?

Marc Effron: I think any or all of the above. First of all, I think feedback, as much feedback as you can get, is always good. I think that's one of the major challenges most people have is we don't ask for feedback. Oftentimes we don't want to hear what that feedback is.

Anita Brick: Great.

Marc Effron: The more people you connect with and say, help me understand what can make me effective here, you'll get great advice from peers, from direct reports, from superiors for a mentoring relationship, which I normally define is kind of a long-term relationship that is not specifically oriented toward a goal, but it's more to help you be successful in a longer-term career.

Obviously, you want to have the support of somebody who is well respected in the organization and who truly knows how to succeed in the organization. So most of the time we look up the hierarchy for that, and you find that in someone who is a level or two above you. I think that we should always be looking for input in a 360-degree way from everyone around us, but mentoring from the top down is probably the most effective.

Now you can have a mentor within the company or outside the company. It really depends on what your specific goals are. It sounds like the challenge here is within that company. What will help you be successful? And that's just … that does mean kind of looking up the ladder. And it never hurts just to go to the HR leader. Let her or him know that you have an interest in this. And ask if they have suggestions or if they'd be wanting to speak with someone about your interests.

Anita Brick: Very good point. One follow-on question. It's a little off topic, but what if your mentor leaves and you still want to have a mentor internally, and now you've been aligned with someone for a while? What do you do to find a new mentor?

Marc Effron: There's probably a couple of questions there. One is, and maybe that's the branding question. If you were being mentored by individual X, and that individual leaves, what was the impression of that individual? Did someone retire after 30 years and they were your mentor? Well, and then someone else will probably be more than happy to pick you up. Did they leave under less than ideal circumstances, and does that somehow, in some way color others’ impressions of you, just to be very real about this?

Anita Brick: Yeah. Good point.

Marc Effron: Then it could be more challenging, and there might need to be some kind of rehabilitation of your brand, even though you did nothing consciously to kind of sully the image of yourself. You know, there is a bit of coloring that takes place. You know, those who you hang around with are assumed to be affecting your behavior and how you think about the business.

So we have a long way around if your mentor leaves. I think it depends on the organization's view of them. If it was a good view, then you go through the exact same process that you did the first time, which is letting people know that you'd love to be mentored and the type of advice that you're looking for is X, Y, and Z.

Anita Brick: And if not, you might need to seek a mentor outside of the organization who might help you fix any damage from your previous affiliation.

Marc Effron: Right.

Anita Brick: I'm going to combine a couple of questions. One was from an alum and one was from an evening student. Number one, how do you prioritize where you spend your time so that you really establish yourself positively in the organization? And how do you decide how to balance the small day-to-day tasks with the more higher-level strategic goals and ambitions?

And do you just get some wins and get some low-hanging fruit, or how do you manage that whole process, especially in today's environment?

Marc Effron: This is going to be so dependent on the individual organization that you joined. When I was in consulting, and we did a lot of consulting around the onboarding process, we were … I was a big believer in the quick win theory. You know, the most important thing you can do is, in the first 30 days, show people how good you are.

I think that is certainly one way of going about things. But, to my earlier story about Avon, we followed that strategy at Avon. That's not a strategy geared toward success, a strategy for success. Here is the more people you know, and the more people have positive feelings about you, the more solid reputation you're going to have in that first month.

I think that's a very valuable learning. And if you look at the fact that every positive impression you make is going to spread through the organization, as we all know, people stand around the water cooler and talk about the new guy or the new gal.

And if you've made 15 good connections, each of those 15 connections is going to talk to their five friends. If you have to pick a place on where to start, I would start with that relationship building, because what you're doing is creating little ambassadors for you who want to go out and say positive things about you. You can focus on other things, like getting to understand the business and developing that quick win.

So you're almost inoculating yourself against anything bad happening to you by starting with building a positive impression around the organization.

Anita Brick: And it sounds like, depending on what the goals and objectives are of the company, it may be that they have some major strategic objectives and it's going to take a while, but they want to see results quickly. But a lot of that, it sounds like that's what you find out.

Marc Effron: Exactly. I think that's the key, is to realize that no two organizations are alike, and the only way to find out the answer to that question is to ask. And it's worth asking a number of people to make sure that you calibrate those responses. But in one organization, it might be in two weeks you’d better show that you know what you're doing.

And in another one it might be, you know, after the first six months, we'd like to see a meaningful deliverable. And the only way to find out is to ask.

Anita Brick: Everyone wants to mitigate—I know “everyone" is sort of a broad statement—but it seems like everyone wants to mitigate the risk as much as possible. Employers do. If someone is coming on as a career switcher, and whether that's a geographic switch, an industry functional switch … but they're a career changer in some way, what can that person do in the onboarding process to mitigate the risk that people may be looking at that person saying, see, I told you, it wasn't a perfect fit, and why did you hire this person? So what can someone do as a career changer to increase their chances of success?

Marc Effron: I was in a similar position coming out of business school, so I think I fully understand the fear that you have walking in day one to, say, a consulting job and really not knowing what you're supposed to be doing, and worrying that others will probably find out that you have no idea what you're doing.

I think the single best strategy here is to be very open with others: that you have not been in the industry before, and you're passionate about it and you really want to succeed, but you're not an expert. You know, what piece of advice would they have for you, and how could they help you succeed? It is amazing. I've found throughout my career and people that I've coached, all you need to do is ask for help.

Most people will be more than willing to help you. Don't make it a big burden on them. Ask for a suggestion and ask for a piece of advice. But start off by saying, this is new to me. I've studied at school. I think I have some good basic knowledge, but you're the expert. Help me understand either how I can be more successful in this firm, or what's key to success in this position.

People will find the response overwhelmingly positive. And it also helps invest those people in your success because you've gone to them and said, help make me more successful. And if they've given you a piece of advice, they've in that way really invested themselves in helping you be successful. And they'll probably go the extra mile to make sure that, you know, if there's a question where you need the benefit of the doubt, that it's given.

Anita Brick: Well, and I guess it's probably a good idea also, it's part of strengthening your network, to let them know that you took their advice.

Marc Effron: Great point.

Anita Brick: What about the geographic split? If it is kind of an industry and a geographic switch at the same time, would there be any additional advice that you would add? Or is it really just making sure that you have those relationships and that the communication is solid and there?

Marc Effron: I think part of it depends on the extent of the geography. I would revert back to asking a lot of questions. If it's, “Hi, I was from Manhattan, but now I'm working in Atlanta. What do you think will be different for me, if anything?” If it's a larger switch—if you used to be in New York and now you're in Shanghai—then I think it's probably something a bit more formal about truly understanding the culture that you're working in and effective work practices in that culture.

Even then, I’d still revert back to “Help me understand what allows someone to be successful,” especially if it's international. What will help a Westerner to be more effective in this culture? What mistakes have other people made that I should definitely avoid. Asking questions is a very powerful process.

Anita Brick: For example, in Asia you would probably do that one on one rather than in a group just because of how communication flows.

Marc Effron: Exactly. And so understanding things like that before you even enter that process is critical.

Anita Brick: Given the market conditions, is there any special advice … ? I mean, I think you've given us really good advice: understand the culture, really be a good detective and understand the political nature of an organization. And of course, just like in the way you found a job, which is largely through networking, you're going to build that same internal network.

Is there any additional advice that you would give someone starting a new job in today's climate, especially if they're mid-career? A question from an alum.

Marc Effron: I think entering an organization is always going to be a challenging process. I'm not sure it's more challenging now than it was six months ago. I think employers have always wanted to see results quickly, and you're going to have to demonstrate that today.

I think employers have always wanted people who fit with the culture and don't rock the boat too much, unless that's the reason you've been brought in. I think that's probably the same thing that you'll see today. So I'm not sure there's a major difference between the crisis that we're in and the good times of six months ago.

I would still revert back to … those core processes work. Whether we're in crisis or in a steady state, there are politics. There is a culture. There are fundamental aspects of the business that—to the extent you know as much as possible about each one of those, your onboarding is going to be much more effective.

And to the extent that structure is a real process and not a happenstance type of occurrence, you're going to actually get through all those meetings or get through all that learning that actually needs to happen.

Anita Brick: So if you were starting a new job today, and I know you've told us that, maybe you can sum up a little bit if you're starting a new job today, what are the three things that you would do immediately within the first 60 days?

Marc Effron: Day one I would start developing, if HR or someone else hasn't done it for me, what is my onboarding process going to be? And I would have three tracks on there. First track is how I learn as much as possible about the business and then detail each asset. You want to understand how do I learn as much as possible about the culture, and how will I build as many relationships as possible?

And that final one is where most people trip, because it can appear to be somewhat disingenuous to say, well, I'm going to have a relationship building plan, and shouldn’t that occur naturally? Well, ideally it occurs naturally, but to the extent that you can turbocharge that and build the relationships that you would have over two years in the first three months, you will have established an incredibly strong foundation for success going forward.

The more people who you know, the more people can help you. Building that relationship plan can be very straightforward. It is simply calling, writing, sending an email, stopping by somebody's office and simply saying, hey, I’m the new guy, or the new gal, would love to understand more about what you do. Can we grab a cup of coffee sometime?

But doing that in a way that—you have your list here, the 45 people like that I need to get to know. Who have I not spoken with yet?

Anita Brick: How does social networking fit in—things like Facebook, MySpace, LinkedIn, and all the others that have emerged?

Marc Effron: I think maybe a couple of ways. One is if you do have a friend or a buddy online that is in the company that you're joining, you know, no better time to reach out and say, hey, we're at the same place. Can you help me out? As well as friends of friends. I mean, one of the great parts of the power of social networking is those second-level and third-level connections that you can play into as well.

And I think that's probably especially helpful pre-onboarding if you're trying to gather information. Maybe your organization has said, yeah, just wait till you get here. If you can dig into your social network, your friends’ social networks to find either active employees or alumni of that firm, that's a great way to scrape together some knowledge before joining.

Anita Brick: One thing, because we've talked a lot about—actually, looking at it the other way. We've talked a lot about, you're going and asking people for help, and help me out, I'm the new person here, etc., etc.. How do you, in that process, show that you are someone who gives as well as receives?

Marc Effron: Well, I think there's one very easy way which is simply asking that question: saying, Anita, I really appreciate the time you spent with me. Now, what can I do to help you be successful? What can I do to make your job easier? Or however you want to phrase that. One, that instantly indicates that you want this to be a reciprocal relationship and that you appreciate the time you spent. I think that's probably the fastest, easiest way to accomplish that.

Anita Brick: OK. Any final thoughts? Any additional words of wisdom you want to share with listeners?

Marc Effron: This is obviously a critical process. It's one that has gotten a lot more publicity over the past few years than it has in the past. And I would certainly encourage your listeners to have a very planful approach to this. It's not going to happen on its own. And while the organization should take care of this for you, if they're not going to, make sure that you develop that plan to understand the business, understand the culture, and build those relationships. And if you do that, you're going to be as well positioned for success as you ever can be.

Anita Brick: Great. Marc, thank you so much. And if you want more information, Marc has a great website. It's MarcEffron.com. And thank you all for listening. This is Anita Brick with CareerCast at Chicago Booth. Keep advancing.