Succeed in Your Cross Regional Job Search

Anita Brick: Hi, this is Anita Brick. And welcome to CareerCast at Chicago Booth to help you advance in your career. Today we're delighted to be speaking with Stacie Berdan, who's a marketing and communications consultant and engaging speaker and an award-winning author. Her latest book is Going Global. We have a chapter up on the site that you can actually download and read. Stacie spent the majority of her career at Burson-Marsteller, one of the world's leading global communication firms, rising from entry level to senior management.

Her professional responsibility has spanned more than 50 countries in Asia–Pacific, Europe, and South America. Her work has been featured in The New York Times, The Wall Street Journal, USA Today, Forbes, Fortune, Time, and way more. I saw that great interview that you did on the Today Show a couple of years ago. So, Stacie, thanks so much for doing this today.

Stacie Berdan: I'm very happy to be here.

Anita Brick: All right. So what are the most important things to consider before contemplating a cross-regional career move?

Stacie Berdan: The two most important things are: one, are you prepared for it? Do you understand that working internationally, across borders, across cultures can be challenging? It can be exciting, fun, and career advancing, but it also can be quite challenging. It's important to kind of assess your ability. And actually in my book section, I do a little quiz and ask people to take it and offer questions such as, do you like to be alone? Do you like challenging situations? Do you not mind diversity? Do you not mind being the one person who's different? How do you handle failure?

So those kinds of things are really important because it can be quite challenging because when you work across border or cross-culturally, you have to be able to do your job really well, of course, but you also have to be able to do that job and take that intellectual capacity, those skills, and apply them, many times working through translators, through different government regulation, different currencies, different economic situations, different political situations. So it's very important that you appreciate and understand who you are and how you handle diverse, challenging situations.

I think the second most important thing to consider is making sure that you have a global mindset. All large companies, organizations are looking for top-quality people from entry level to senior managers who actually have a global mindset. And there's some interesting research being done out there. The leader right now is at Thunderbird University. They do a global mindset inventory, and they break down the global mindset into three different categories: intellectual capital, which is your ability to do your work, essentially—global business savvy, cognitive complexities, that kind of stuff. So intellectually, can you do the work?

The second is social capital: How do you do working cross-culturally? Do you have intercultural empathy? You know, what's your interpersonal skills? What are they like? Are you diplomatic? The third is psychological capital. Passion for diversity, your quest for adventure, curiosity. Interestingly, those first two, intellectual capital and social capital, show that they can actually move the needle. They can actually train people and work with leaders to actually become better at those two.

The third, psychological capital, they haven't yet quite figured out how to actually make people more like that. And it's interesting. There's a lot of different research out there right now, but it has to do with, again, that innate desire, that curiosity, that passion for it. And that is another one of the things to consider when you're actually going to work cross-border, because most people really just want to do it and they have that quest, they have that passion, and that many times is a signal for success.

Anita Brick: I see people here who are doing it both ways. So they're in the US, going to Singapore or to Frankfurt or wherever they happen to go. I’m seeing a gentleman from China this afternoon who wants to figure out a way to actually find a job in another part of the US, and how to leverage that same set of curiosity, the intellectual power, the emotional intelligence and all of that.

Is it different? Obviously, you've got tons of experience working globally and coaching people to do this. When you think about someone who maybe is coming to the US, which obviously is a tougher market, what are some things that someone can do to seek out which region even in the US, where skills, say, from China could be useful?

Stacie Berdan: Well it's interesting. The first part of that question that I heard is, is it different for people coming here than elsewhere? And no, the research that I did for my first book, Get Out by Going Abroad, we actually interviewed more than 200 people around the world who had worked—so someone from Chile who worked in Mexico, someone from China who worked in New York, a US person who worked in London, an Indian who had actually worked in Dubai.

So it's actually—these skills and this approach is the same. But when you're trying to figure out where can someone from China, as in your example, or anywhere, you have to apply different job seeking skills in the first place? One, because visas are the number one issue that actually kind of stop many people at the border, so to speak, here in the United States.

And that's true for others around the world as well. And we're seeing a lot of that in Europe. That's a very hard rule. But specifically, how do you find a job, to your example? The most important thing to do is start looking at companies, organizations that are looking to expand. It's not just a regional approach. There can be—most people say, well, how about New York? Of course, New York has tons of multinational companies, organizations, NGOs that have a real global mindset and need thinkers from around the world. DC, to some lesser extent, I'd say, has the same; San Francisco with the proximity to Asia.

But I think the number one thing to consider, whether you're from China or India or Russia or Brazil, any of these really hot growing markets, take a look at the companies, or the organizations if you're not just interested in the private sector. Take a look at who's growing there, who is expanding in your home country, and may be able to use the knowledge you have, the network you have, the language skills you have, the ability to work kind of like within the Chinese system, if you will. So you have a lot of knowledge and information about China that companies here may want and need.

That's the way to work it if you're trying to get a job. And this, again, this applies to anyone looking for a position anywhere around the world. You have to have something that differentiates you. What is it about you? Because the competition is stiff everywhere and at every level. So if you can show an organization that you have this, maybe it is a combination of language skills, some work experience within China, and that work that actually can be useful here in the US as they expand or as maybe Chinese companies are expanding here in the US, we're seeing a lot of growth in central and South America and in Africa. So taking a look at what you have that's different, where the companies of the organizations are growing, and how you can connect the dots between what you have and where that growth is.

Anita Brick: So how would you specifically suggest that someone get a handle on that from a research standpoint? Because it seems a little bit massive to me. There's so much out there, there's so many different companies, so, so many different places, etc., etc., and I totally agree with you: Differentiation is key. What are some things that you would recommend that someone does to do some of the research, to even be able to create that kind of list?

Stacie Berdan: There are a couple of things. The most important thing to do is to network, because this group of people—and I have been doing this, working in this space and networking with, you know, globally minded people and global executives, if you will, for almost 20 years. It's a very tough world or a group of people to kind of find and get in touch with.

Once you meet people like, oh, you have those kinds of skills. Of course we need that. They're not posted anywhere. Normally they're not posted within companies necessarily. So it's really tough to find. So networking is key. Finding people who actually work with some of these large companies who actually have the insider information, that's probably the number one thing a person can do.

Just taking a look at the research, I see this figure all the time. Most job seekers, no matter at what level, 90% are passive. So 10% are doing aggressive, thorough research making calls and networking and that kind of thing. And that's what this takes. So starting with research, you can take a look at your basic top 500 top 1000 companies. If you take a look at the largest growth companies right now in the Fortune 500 list, and you see the growth that's been going up, American companies have been falling off the top 25 in largest.

And Chinese companies are rising in the ranks. They're in petroleum, in the oil industry. So what else are they doing? Read business periodicals, papers in the US, but also outside the US, to find out where some of this growth is going on. You can tell with indicators sometimes within the annual reports where they're looking, and you can just look for growth trends.

Take a look at where the growth has been happening, which markets have been happening and why. An example is world events. So whenever there's something like the World Cup or an Olympics—there’s going to be two back-to-back in Brazil in the coming years, and there's tremendous growth going on there right now from infrastructure, all kinds of opportunities. And so looking for trends in major events, natural resources, where are they, where are companies and organizations trying to tap and where a lot of NGOs and not for profits are going, a real indicator of where companies want to go.

What we've seen recently is the western part of Africa and even the other side in Ethiopia, for years and years, foundations and not for profits have been there. Now we're seeing a lot of entrepreneurial activity. There's a lot of microfinance loans and there's a lot of private investment going on in those parts. So if you could kind of take a look at where some of that activity is going on.

Another thing to really consider is it's not just the big markets. Yes, the BRICS countries are great, they're fabulous. And I've mentioned them myself. If you really want to pursue a global international career, consider the threshold or the emerging emerging markets, Central America. There's a lot going on in Panama and Nicaragua and Argentina. There's a lot going on in various parts of Asia and Vietnam and Thailand, certainly, the UAE and parts of Northern Africa are hot spots.

It's really a constant analysis of what's going on, spotting trends, maybe. Where's one of the first movers going in tech? In industry perhaps? Energy is a hot industry not only for oil, natural gas, and other alternative fuels. So it's really tough to actually do it. But I think if you do network, if you take a look at stock, indicators around the world, annual reports, some of the large companies, some of those big list and where some of the trends are some of the big thinkers and some of the big think tanks as well are talking about where are the future markets, because that's where large-scale organizations need to go to grow.

Anita Brick: You're absolutely right. And you see it a lot. And I know that we have conferences all the time, and we have campuses, two in Chicago, then one in Singapore and one in London. And you could even go into the media site and actually watch some of the panels to get firsthand information about what's going on right now. So that's also a great, immediate thing that you can do after listening to this call.

Stacie Berdan: That's terrific. You need that, and the whole alumni network, I imagine, as well, kind of like feeding in information that only you can get is a real bonus.

Anita Brick: You're right. And there are literally dozens and dozens and dozens and dozens of alumni clubs all over the world. And people, well, I don't know anyone in this region. I don't know anyone in this country or in this city. That's an immediate thing that someone can do: Go to the alumni page, look at that, look at the community directory, and start there.

It seems that a lot of people have—and this isn't just true with cross-regional searches, but I think it's true across the board. People have a challenging time, not having that first conversation to meet someone new and maybe having a 10-, 15-minute conversation, whether it's in person, by phone, Skype, whatever it happens to be. But keeping up that relationship is difficult even if you're in the same building, let alone halfway around the world. What are some things that you advise people to do? This actually came from an Exec MBA student. What are some things you would advise someone to do to manage both personal and professional relationships when they're all over the place?

Stacie Berdan: Definitely a struggle and nobody expects—although social media has changed it dramatically, which is wonderful, on many, many fronts, but I don't think anyone expects constant communication. So I like to say, because I have a very wide and broad network around the world, if you touch base with people a few times a year or more, if there's something that they could do for you, that's great, but always make it substantive.

I read a tremendous amount, so when I read an article or I see a link or something, similar to the way people post stuff on Facebook or Twitter, which is a great way to think in connection with people. I highly recommend LinkedIn using that for business purposes, but I like to actually send people a note. Saw this article on the high growth that's going on in Papua New Guinea.

Remember that you were really interested in that or whatever. So actually when you scan things kind of touching base of people on a regular basis and then give them 1 or 2 lines about what you're doing, I strongly recommend people do not send resumes on a regular basis to say, can you help me get a job? I think your audience is much more sophisticated than that, but I still find people who actually write to me and say, can you help me get a job?

Anita Brick: You think that everybody would know, but you're—but thank you for pointing it out, because sometimes people are so anxious to find that next opportunity that they forget.

Stacie Berdan: Yes, yes, you send short, substantive pieces of communication that make people think, oh, this person's a thinker. She's a real thinker. Oh, I like that idea you sent, or what a neat piece. I never would have read that Atlantic article on Americans' perception of China if that person hadn’t sent it to me. So that actually is a really good thing and can create dialogue and conversation.

If you're working now and actually you travel a lot, wherever you're going into a city, build a list of networking people, in your space, in your spaces, whether it's your industry or perhaps you want to work in a particular region or a country in the future, or for a particular NGO or not for profit and try to write them ahead: Can we have a coffee? Can you meet? I mean, something like that. So when you're traveling—and it's very difficult to do. I just did this at a conference, a speaker a couple of weeks ago, and a fellow panelist actually said, that's a great idea. You know, I should do that more often, but we just get into the job. We want to get home as quickly as possible.

But networking really is an art. And the more you do it and the more you do it when you're not necessarily looking, the better, stronger ties that you can create.

Anita Brick: You're right, and one of the Exec MBA students asked, what about scheduling a trip? But if you are already there and he, I mean, he wanted to know, should I just be on the ground if I want to go into a new region? And of course you can do that. But if things are already planned, there could even be a time, if you can work it into your schedule and come early, leave late, that you could have networking conversations, but you might also be able to schedule actual interviews or pre-interviews. When people know that you're there for a fixed amount of time, it creates a sense of urgency to see you. If they do want to see you.

Stacie Berdan: You're absolutely right. And what I recommend, if it is for maybe a work-related trip or it's part of some kind of a case study that you do as part of the MBA Program in another country. And I know the schedules are tight, but ask anybody, you know, do they have contacts? And you can begin to build your list. I'm going to Ghana. Do you know anyone there? Or I'm going to spend three days in Shanghai. I just want to meet—I want to see what it's like living in Shanghai or, you know, just make a contact. And most people will be willing to introduce you to their friends if you're not going to bombard them with resumes and job requests.

Then you can begin to build your contact list, and then you can begin to connect with them on LinkedIn and follow up later. And they may help a year, 3 or 5 years down the road, everybody's doing it. That's what's most interesting right now. Maybe if some of the listeners are actually anxiously looking for a new position or a position right now, you're in a situation that other people have been in in the past. And so everybody wants to network. I find it very interesting. It's just you have to make sure that it's give and take.

Anita Brick: Absolutely. Because if it's not, the person will stop responding to you.

Stacie Berdan: You definitely get the cold shoulder and the silent email.

Anita Brick: And it's true. And I think that sometimes, especially students think, well, what do I have to offer someone who has a lot of experience? And it doesn't have to be work related. It could be, you know, I learned about this great new app for my iPad that makes it so I don't really have to actually take my laptop now because of this new app.

Or I know that you're coming to Chicago and you mentioned that you absolutely love fill-in-the-blank food and there's this wonderful new restaurant that you may want to check out. So I think there are lots of ways of having the give and take. It's not always going to be that both sides are going to help the other person advance in their career.

Stacie Berdan: Yes, you are absolutely right. Networking is about lots of things. It's not just about getting a job or winning a client. You're absolutely right and you have to think outside the box like that. I get tons of tips from students who are still undergrad, you know, even high school students who write to me and offer various, you know, points of view or things. They're all very valuable and interesting. And a lot of times you'll find people just want to help other people if there's that kind of exchange.

Anita Brick: We did a focus group last December with people who had gone through on-campus recruiting, and one of the things I found fascinating, which certainly applies elsewhere, but it applies here, too. Someone said that he had been on the student side, like seeking advice and seeking help, getting into companies and stuff like that. And when he finished, he was now on the receiving side.

So the next group of students were reaching out to him. And he said, one of the things he realized, and he wished he had realized it while he was actually recruiting, was that if you are interested, genuinely, authentically interested in the other person, it will advance the relationship tremendously. Many people go into it thinking, oh, you know, Stacie has all this great information and I need to get as much of it as I can because I may not get to talk to her again.

And I forget that you're on the other side of the line or the other side of the table. I thought that was just a simple but brilliant piece of advice, because if you're interested, it helps keep the dialogue going. And obviously if you're interested, it makes the other person feel good.

Stacie Berdan: Absolutely, absolutely. And that could be applied to one of the questions that you mentioned was, so if you're traveling, but if you're also networking and you want to get a job in another place and you're doing this kind of maybe like pre-trip building this great list of contacts from all the people you know, and trying to set up information, interviews and just contact and coffees and teas and that kind of stuff in a city to which you're traveling and maybe you're just going to pick up and move.

I think many times you can offer something from where you're coming from. Interesting news, especially if you're meeting with people who have lived outside their home country. Just say, for example, when I was in Hong Kong for many years, I loved it when people would come and talk about, whether it was music trends or the dot-com bubble that happened when I was in Hong Kong.

And it was interesting because, you know, a great perspective of things that were going on that you just cannot get the flavor of when you're living, you know, halfway around the world. So there's a lot of exchange that you can, you know, just kind of human interaction that occurs when you actually meet with people. And you can bring that to someone when they've been living in another market for another country for a few months or a few years. That's a nice exchange, too.

Anita Brick: You're absolutely right. Which actually goes to two questions about people who—one person in India, one person in China who had come to the US to work and go to school, and now after five, 6 or 7 years, want to return to their home country. The challenge, as both this alum and the student conveyed, is now they're competing with a whole bunch of people like themselves who have been outside of their home country wanting to go back to India or China, and they're competing with people inside their country.

How does one manage these two layers of competition? One from people who have gone away, gotten different experiences, have more of a global perspective. And then competing with that whole pool and also competing with the pool of people who stayed. Like you said, when you're in a location, you have a different perspective and you have a bit of an insider's perspective.

So what would you advise someone who is wanting to go back to their home country? The market is more competitive there. How do they manage those two different pieces of competition? Both people like themselves who want to reenter, and people who have stayed.

Stacie Berdan: Great question. We're seeing much more of that. With respect to the first part, the competition, like, you know, and even so much to this second, is you have to figure out, you know, what's your brand, what differentiates you? And I think all of this is about marketing and personal brand strategy. That's what I did for many years. And I don't think branding oneself is really any different than branding soap or a certain type of a bank or an electronic product.

It's all about what is the substance? Who are you? What do you have to offer? You are different. You have certain specific things to offer. So it's all in branding, who you are, what you have to offer, and how you can convey that actually to potential employees. Are employers searching through your current company or organization? It's always easier to transfer somewhere within the company you're in.

So let's take that as an example. And that's also a little bit difficult as well, going back home, because you're a different person. You mentioned 6 or 7 years. That's a long time. There's a lot of personal and professional growth that has gone on within a person who's actually lived and worked outside of the market, and that's really what I've found.

Because all of my research that organizations, companies want, they want that growth. They want the ability to tap your knowledge of working in a new market as well as your previous market. So working within the network that you have within the company or your organization that you have to differentiate yourself. I still believe, and I've heard this from a lot of the large management consulting firms in the big companies, that the competition, although maybe stiff in that first group of people, a lot of people like you that want to go back, it's not quite as tough as people expect it to be in the next 5 to 10 years.

So I think there's still a break. But I think differentiating yourself, what is it that you've done? What is it that you have, and how can you apply it back home? That's the most important thing I think to do, working within either your network or the current organization for which you work. With respect to competing with people back home, that's kind of tricky because there is that local knowledge base.

There is a strong, educated workforce in both India and China. So the competition is stiff and they do know a lot more about working on the ground than you do. That's just most likely a point of fact. It's no different from when people, someone like myself, went out and then went back to Washington, DC, and it could be a short example or small example of the first two questions that I was asked was, you know, what media can you call? Because that was our business. And who do you know on the Hill? Well, nobody, because Washington changes every two years.

So I didn't have any contacts. I was made to feel like, wow, you know, I don't have anything that's valuable to these people. But it was only that one particular person. I found a mentor, actually, who helped me reintegrate within the city in the US and able to tap my international skills, which is my point, which is you have something that the others who have been working on the ground don't have.

You have sophisticated, complex knowledge market offerings. And that carries a lot of weight with a lot of companies. But you need to find the right one. If you go back to a place like DC that runs on relationships and media reporters, that wasn't going to work for me. I would have failed had I tried to fill those types of shoes because I didn't have those skills.

Instead, I ended up finding out, working with a mentor and someone who advocated for me, well, why don't we take her knowledge and appreciation of Asia, as well as how these large multinational companies are expanding in various markets around the world, and apply that to our global clients who want someone who thinks beyond Washington? And so that's how it worked for me.

And those are the kinds of skills and things that you can showcase that you have, and that actually complement the workers back there in your home country and really make for a very strong company or an organization. When the two local and the global knowledge work hand in hand.

Anita Brick: So it sounds like whether you are heading out or whether you are in the process of reentry, you want to be thinking about this all along the way. But certainly at this point in time to continue to know yourself, be able to articulate your strengths and the values that you bring. Stay on top of the market so that you know how those strengths and skills and talents and all of those things can contribute to the market.

And what we talked about very early on to really maintain those relationships, if you’ve been a little out of touch with those relationships, go back and re energize those, reinvigorate those, because all of those things are going to help you as you look for something, but also as you are in the process of reentry.

Stacie Berdan: Absolutely great, great synopsis. And one thing I'd like to add, which happens to everyone who's worked and lived in other places, which is you will meet people who don't appreciate what you have and what you bring. Some people just do not get it—don't understand, despite how big and global our world has become and how technology has pulled this all together so much more closely.

Some people don't get it and don't want to get it. You'll end up dropping those people along the way, and it's important to realize it's not you, it's them. One person said this before I was leaving for my first assignment overseas, which was, you're going to go and you're going to come back and you are never going to be the same. Other people are going to stay, and they are the same. Just appreciating that.

Anita Brick: Well, and it can be intimidating for the people who haven't moved.

Stacie Berdan: Yes.

Anita Brick: A couple more questions if you have a little more time?

Stacie Berdan: Yes I do.

Anita Brick: OK, great. Someone said, I've been fortunate enough to find this. As an evening student. I am very fortunate to have found a job in another region. Now that I have this opportunity, what are some things I can do to ensure a successful experience?

Stacie Berdan: OK, lots of things I'll give you. Probably my top three. One is to really enjoy it and do as much as you can to learn and grow personally. And I'm putting this one first because many times we all just talk about our careers and we talk about how great it's going to be for our career, but there's a lot of personal growth that goes on.

There's also a lot of fun you can have, and there's also a lot of knowledge you can gain by actually becoming part of the new country and the new culture. So have fun, break out, meet people, meet friends from, you know, all over the world, colleagues, and don't just work. That's the most important thing, actually have a life—because if you have a life that actually complements your work, it’s much better.

Two, you're going to work really hard, most likely, all of us have. And as I pointed out earlier, you have to be great at what you do and you're doing it in this new region or country with a whole different set of rules. There's a really big learning curve, and appreciate that as you're going through this learning curve, you're going to go through highs and lows, part of a culture shock as well.

You're going to have these great experiences. You're going to love it. It's going to be great. And then you're going to fail and you're going to screw up because we all do, and you're going to make a mistake. And some people may not even tell you, you may be in a culture like I was where no one would actually tell me I made a mistake, which was horrific for a couple of months. And so you're going to learn these things and you're going to feel bad and you're going to be like, wow, you know, I've had a stellar school run. I've had a great career so far, and all of a sudden I'm ruining my career because I'm doing this or I've made a mistake.

Don't worry. Other people have always—admit it. Own up to it and move on and you'll be on the upswing again, because it is a series of highs and lows, and you have to really make sure that you kind of take care of yourself through that. And that's again part of the personal bit. The third is, stretch yourself as much as you can, you know, learn as much as you possibly can, which probably means working longer and harder. Some of what I'm saying, of course, sounds like a bit of a contradiction: I'm telling you to go out and have fun, but work really hard for hours.

And don't forget you're going to fail. You're going to have to redo things. So in all reality, I mean really stretch yourself, take on new assignments and don't be afraid, you know, take those calculated risks because that's where the real professional growth can come in, and you can just catapult yourself forward. And the research that I've done with so many professionals is that they've gone out on a limb, they've done certain things, and they've really just soared.

So those are my top three. I've got so many others, I'm sure, that I could mention.

Anita Brick: I know there are a ton on your website, by the way. Great stuff. On the website it is www.StacieBerdan.com. One final question: if you were embarking on a cross-regional search today, going from one side of the world to the other, what are three things that you would begin doing right now?

Stacie Berdan: I would have a strategy. I know a lot of people talk about, oh, well, I just fell into my career—which, by the way, I did and kind of moved along—but I still had a strategy. So I always have a strategy. Why do you want an international career, a cross-border work experience? What is it that you want? Why do you want it? Make sure you're clear about that. That's number one because everything after will flow from that. Maybe you have an engineering background, a business degree, and you speak Spanish. Well, maybe it's a really good idea to get in on some of the infrastructure growth that's going on in Central America. Maybe you could pick up or start taking Portuguese and start to get in on what's going on in Brazil.

So have a strategy and know why you want to do it and make sure that it makes sense. And that would be point number two, which is to do your research. I mean, if you want a job in Italy right now, jobs are hard to come by. Unemployment is high. So be realistic. So take a look. After you define what your strategy is, do your research. Do you have skills that might be able to be mapped against certain geographies, market companies, industries? That would be number two.

Then the third of course, is to begin to connect those dots for yourself. Where is it? You've got your strategy. You've done your research. Now, have you found some things to pursue? Then of course, the next point would be networking, which we've talked about a lot. Brand yourself in your materials, your resume, and your cover letter.

And do not underestimate, no matter where you are in your career, the value of a great elevator speech. I can't tell you—I have now heard hundreds of stories of people with that. Yeah, you know, I was on this personal trip trekking around, you know, Nepal. And I met somebody and I talked to them about my career. And all of a sudden I had this great job. And what I think—it happens to so many people. And it follows. If you have a strategy, you've done your research, you know what skills you have, you know what's going on in the world that you actually can say, you know, in a couple of sentences what it is that you want, just in case you meet someone.

Because like I said in the beginning, this group of people is kind of small. Around the world, you'll meet people who have international careers. They'll love to talk about it because there are so few people who really do. So when, as I mentioned, once you find people like that, they will want to talk about it. They want to talk about the rich experience.

They want to talk about the necessity of a global experience, a global mindset. and skills. So it's really important to have that elevator pitch ready. And then of course, make sure you have fun, whatever it is that you're going to do, because that's really important. Tough to balance and it's tough to handle all of these various things. But it's a lot of fun actually, to go and explore the world and work around the world, no matter what capacity you're in. Those are my kind of pointers. And what I would do to recommend the first step.

Anita Brick: Well, clearly you've done all three of those and had fun. Which is probably why this call is fun today. So thank you very much for making the time to do this.

Stacie Berdan: Oh, it's my pleasure. It's great, great fun. And I love to talk about it because I think it's critically important. The more people that think about pursuing international careers, global careers, the better, because there's no looking back. I mean, that's the future. So the more global experience you have, the better.

Anita Brick: Thank you so much, Stacie. Thank you. And once again, Stacie's website is again StacieBerdan.com. And thank you all for listening. This is Anita Brick with CareerCast at Chicago Booth. Keep advancing.