Strategies for Overcoming Unexpected Career Challenges

Anita Brick: Hi, this is Anita Brick and welcome to CareerCast at Chicago Booth to help you advance in your career. Today we're delighted to be speaking with Gary McClain. He is an educator, psychotherapist, and relationship coach with a practice in New York City. He also works with employees in corporate settings. The focus of his practice is adults in transition, work and career, romance and family relationships, health and caregiving, loss and grief. Effective interpersonal communication, difficult conversations, and closure are topics that he frequently explores with his clients. He's an adjunct faculty member and conducts seminars and workshops on mental health and communication. Gary, thank you so much. By the way, I love the book. It's on closure, which a lot of our questions are related to today. Thanks for making the time.

Gary McClain: Thank you. I'm thrilled to be here. Really, really an honor. Thanks so much.

Anita Brick: Thank you. It's interesting, these questions are a little bit longer than the ones we typically get, but they felt deeply personal too. I'm looking forward to this dialogue that we're going to have.

Gary McClain: Me too. Thank you. Yeah, me too.

Anita Brick: Okay. So the first one is from an MBA student. "I've noticed for a while that when I apply for a job, I rarely hear anything, not even a rejection. I get distracted and lose motivation to keep applying for other roles. This is not good for me on so many levels, especially in a market where the hiring is pretty slow. Any strategies on this to get re-motivated? Greatly appreciated. Thanks, Gary."

Gary McClain: That's a great question. I have this conversation so often. It just is rough in the job market. It's just rough. I think you end up feeling disrespected and just being ghosted is any situation is rough and I think when you're looking for a job and you're out there constantly putting your best self forward, trying to be optimistic, and all the things you do in the job interview and then things seem to go well and again, you get ghosted. I think the first thing I would have to say is try not to take it personal. People are busy and they're just not always very respectful and I think organizations also often aren't comfortable giving you the closure that you would like because they're not always comfortable explaining, "Well, you didn't get the job because of this or that."

This can feel hopeless after a while, and it's really important not to fall into the hopelessness that just often goes along with looking for a job. Human nature, we'd like closure. "What did I do wrong? What's going on here? Why didn't I hear back?" Sometimes we're going to get it and sometimes not, and I would just say try to let it go, to move on and not to fall into that trap of hopelessness and resentment. And I know this is easy for me to say from my armchair, but move on to the next opportunity. It's just you kind of have to shrug it off. "I'll never know. I'm going to move on to the next opportunity." And just keep yourself motivated. Frustrating that, when you ghosted. Keep your head up. Keep going.

Anita Brick: So let's get a little practical here. In your book you talk about acceptance. What are two actions someone can take to move from lack of closure in this situation, and in many situations we'll probably talk about today, but what are a couple things someone can do, very practical things, that someone can do to move toward acceptance?

Gary McClain: Well, I think one is to do some self-assessment. Go back to your foundation. Your foundation is rock solid. Shaky day, shaky job market, shaky situations, your foundation is rock solid. Go back to your foundation. I often ask my clients, "What is your foundation?" "What do you mean?" "Well, who's on your side? Who's got your back?" Your education, your experience, your skills, who you're the go-to person for? Go back and review that. Reconnect with your foundation. Again, that's rock solid. If you're aware of your personal brand, whatever you want to term it, I think it's really important here to go back to that, connect, and build yourself up again.

Watch your self-talk also. Cognitive behavior therapy, we talk a lot about self-talk, the ongoing dialogue you have with yourself. What is your self-talk like? Are you constantly saying, "This is hopeless, this is awful." Be careful about that. Be careful about your self-talk. Give yourself some encouragement as well and connect people who can give you some encouragement as well. The important thing is to keep your spirits up, review your foundation, get some support, and watch your self-talk.

Anita Brick: I think it's really important and I like the last thing that you said. We don't have to do this alone. There are people who care about us that we've probably encouraged and they would like the opportunity to be able to do that too, so I like that.

Gary McClain: Absolutely.

Anita Brick: Yeah.

Gary McClain: In undergraduate, my social psychology textbook was called The Social Animal. We need other people, we need our support network, our professional network. We need other people.

Anita Brick: I totally agree. Well, the next two questions are both from alumni and they're about being surprised that they're not at their company anymore. Here's the first one. "I was part of a large-scale layoff at my former employer in the tech space. I am a bit stuck. I didn't believe the job losses would affect me because I was promoted just a month earlier. While I am seeing a therapist, I'm stuck in wanting to go back and find out why they told me that my job was safe when it wasn't. Any ideas about actions to get past this are greatly appreciated."

Gary McClain: Really sorry this happened. It's rough out there and it's rough when you feel like things are going fine and all of a sudden you find out they're not. It just doesn't make any sense, like a lot of life. Well, first I want to say quickly, congratulations on working with a therapist. That's great. Getting some emotional support is so important. But again, it's really disappointing to be let go with no warning. You feel valued, you've been told you're valued, you've been encouraged, you've been told you're great, and all of a sudden this happens. Why me? Why?

I spent a lot of years myself in the business world as an employee in various, I was a trainer, I worked in advertising, I did market research, and one thing I have found is that when someone is let go, for lack of a better term and this term was given to me by a client who said to me, "I feel kind of radioactive." "What do you mean?" "I got laid off and I'm reaching out. I'm not hearing anything back. I've tried to ask why. I don't get answers back. I don't know if they're afraid to tell me or afraid to get involved or what."

But I think if you're looking for some closure here and it's only human nature that you would want closure, it's only human nature that you deserve it, "What happened here?" If you know the person that was involved here, whether it's a leader or HR, it might be worth it trying to have a conversation. Now, you may have done this already. You know who you're dealing with here. Is this someone who you feel could have a conversation with you and let you know, "Well, here's why it landed on you." Or maybe you know this person or you've already tried and you're kind of hitting a wall. Sometimes the only closure you're going to get is acceptance that there's no closure. I'm going to say it again. Sometimes the only closure you're going to get is to accept that there's no closure and to move on, "And this shouldn't have happened, but it did. I'm going to take this and I'm going to build, create a new opportunity for myself. I'm going to move on. I'm not going to let this wear me down."

Anita Brick: Yeah, I think it's easier said than done, but it goes back to having that foundation, knowing what you stand for, why you've chosen the work or the life or the purpose that you have, and letting others support you while you also support them. I think that those are very wise things, Gary.

Gary McClain: Yes.

Anita Brick: All right, so here's another situation. This is between a founding member of a company and a founder. "I was working for a company for more than a decade and then I wasn't. There was no discussion. I wasn't even told I was being asked to leave. The founder mentioned that someone new was coming in and I would be given the chance to take a lesser role or leave. I couldn't believe it. We had been through so much. I ended up getting seriously ill. I got better, but I am having a hard time feeling that the founder should apologize to me. I can't get past it and I don't want it to impact my new role."

Gary, what would you say to that? Because it sounds like this person is stuck in the past, and has a new role, which is great, but that the past could actually compromise that new role too.

Gary McClain: Such a really good question and a situation I've discussed so often with clients over the years. First your reaction is normal. Political situations can be so unfair and devastating. Again, I just want to normalize that we give so much to our work, we don't feel we're replaceable, then suddenly we're told we are, and feeling not valued in the process, very difficult. So first I'm hearing the need for closure. Of course, you want closure. Absolutely. Who wouldn't in this situation? Now you know the founder. I suspect you know this person. You know what they're like. So I would have to ask you first that think about how likely is it that they will apologize? I might even also ask, how likely is it they will even have this conversation with you. I should say, by requesting a conversation, an apology, are you going to get that or are you setting yourself up for more disappointment and more frustration?

My first recommendation always when someone wants to seek closure is know who you're seeking closure with. Are you going to get satisfaction here? Are you going to be more frustrated? Protect your emotions. That's what I'm saying here is protect your emotions. And again, sometimes again, acceptance is the best way and to move forward, to just stand up and head up and move forward. This is also a reminder to me. We often use the word love in relation to work. We love our leaders, we love our work, we love our coworkers, love, love, love. Being rewarded at work, being valued as humans, we want to love other people. It creates that. But I think in a situation like yours, and I don't mean to sound harsh here, but it's also a reminder that in many ways work is transactional.

You come to work, you do your thing, you do your job, you get paid. Maybe you get some recognition. We have some good times together. You go home, you come back the next day. There's a transactional aspect of work that I think sometimes in the process of being really involved in working together, we forget that at the end of the day this is a transaction.Which means that when the company decides, we don't need your skills right now, or we need somebody who's a little more of this or a little less of that, they're going to let go of you. So at the end of the day, it's still a transaction and I think that's such a harsh realization and I think in a situation like this where you feel like, "I really put in some sweat equity here. You're not even going to apologize?" I think it's a reminder that you know what, there's something transactional here, isn't there? Maybe that's the lesson. Embrace the lesson, move on, hold your head up and move on with your life, and focus on the next opportunity.

Anita Brick: That's really super helpful. There's an alum who's struggling with tension between it being transactional, and his loyalty. So he said, "I am with a startup and we haven't been able to get the next round of funding, yet I know I need cashflow and also want to be loyal to my company. How would you suggest framing a conversation about this with the founder so I can retain my position in the startup and have time and support to do a side gig for cashflow? By the way, the side gig would not be a conflict of interest."

Gary McClain: Being in New York, I work with a lot of startup people. It's a very interesting environment, exciting and risky as anybody working in this environment doesn't need me to tell them. I think you have a good strategy here, first, to try to make this work, but also to take care of yourself. If you're a startup kind of person and this is your approach to work, your mentality, I think this is great. Try to make this work and then again work on your side gig as well. I think it's a great idea.

What I would say is to manage up and if you were sitting on my sofa across from me, I would encourage you to manage up. Again, build the relationship, or build on the relationship with the founder, talk about what you've been working on and sit down and say, "I'd like to review where I am and what I've been working on. I'd like to talk about where we are and I have a couple of ideas that we might want to consider."

I worked for a small technology company many years ago. I did corporate communications and I was talking with the founder and I was bringing up a couple issues and he said, "Gary," he said, "When you come to talk to me," he said, "why don't you come with solutions? I know what the problems are. I want the solution." And I think founders, people in executive roles, they really appreciate when you show enthusiasm by having done some homework, identified a couple of issues and said, "We might want to think about this." Ask for your founder's perceptions, priorities. "What are your priorities? What are you thinking? What do you think about my solutions? How can we work together? Here's a couple of ideas."

The idea is communicate, to manage up, to come with solutions, to show you're dedicated enough to the company to actually be thinking about ways to improve, and then talk about some ways that you could work together. And then keep this going, keep the communication going, while you're still taking good care of yourself as well. Build communication. I think so often we don't communicate so we make assumptions, and then the assumptions start to grow in our minds. When we don't have information, our minds say, "Don't worry about it. I got a scenario for you." Often the scenarios our minds come up with are not necessarily accurate. Keep communicating, manage up, again, talk about what's going on, solutions, team up with your founder.

Anita Brick: I like that a lot and I think the solution part, especially in a startup environment-

Gary McClain: Yes.

Anita Brick: The founder has so many things going on, and it's true in a larger company too, that if you bring more problems you become the problem.

Gary McClain: Yes, exactly. That says it well 100%. That's right.

Anita Brick: Good. All right, so here you said people make up stories in their heads sometimes about what's really going on. And there are two of them, these are two people who are in their companies, but the challenge is are what they perceive as not everyone is being treated the same way. So I'll share the first one. They both happen to be MBA students. The first person said, "I will admit it, I am resentful. Some of my colleagues are given extras from promotions to professional development. I have not been promoted for the last few years even though I've been told I would, and no professional development either. Even if I choose to move to another job, I don't want to take the resentment with me. Help and thank you."

Gary McClain: That's a rough situation. I've been there myself and I think you have a good reason to feel resentment. Watching this go on, you're not seeing encouragement, you're not seeing attention to your own professional growth. You're resentful. Of course, that's human. So first I would just have to ask how the ways to advocate for yourself, the ways to present your case to management. Again, the idea of solutions is there's some professional development you'd like to get involved in. Something you could identify and say, "I'd like to do this and here's how it will benefit the company. Here's how it will benefit you as my leader. If I can do this, I will add this." Take a step back. If there's something your colleagues are doing that maybe you can learn from, whether it's attitude, whether it's making suggestions, asking for things, is there something they're doing that maybe you're not doing? Just have to ask. Just throwing that out there.

Identify some opportunities and say, "Here's what I'd like to do. Here's why. Here's some skills I'd like to add. Here's why. Here's how you'll benefit. Here's my next promotion. What do I need to do to get there?" There's some conversations that need to have. Now you may be rolling your eyes and saying, "I'm doing all this already." Well, I'm just throwing that out there, but resentment is a poison.

Anita Brick: It is.

Gary McClain: It just builds up and then it starts leaking out in our attitude and our demeanor, in our performance. So really be careful about that. Look at how can I advocate for myself? And then have realistic expectations about what you can expect, what you may not be able to expect given your organization, but try the route of being a stronger advocate for yourself. Bring solutions.

Anita Brick: Pay attention to the culture.

Gary McClain: Yes.

Anita Brick: What is it about the people who are getting these extras, the promotions, the professional development? Like you said, look at what you can learn from others both in terms of their attitude or if they socialize ideas to get the support before they make the ask or anything else that might be along those lines. But that's very good advice, so thank you for that.

Gary McClain: Thank you.

Anita Brick: That's tricky, but this one feels even trickier. "Hi Gary, and thank you. I'm in an organization where there is an individual who's committed to their contribution and largely supportive. Yet there are times, and they've been growing in number, when this individual is abusive in their communication with a variety of individuals. The person is not being asked to leave and we work directly with one another. What advice would you have to mitigate the impact on me? And I don't want to leave the organization, at least not at this time. Thanks."

Gary McClain: I would look at this from a couple of angles. I do a lot of work in employee assistance, I'll call it EAP for shorthand. One thing I talk about with people a lot, employees that come to me, is when they have a situation like this with, which I'll call a difficult person, there are other terms such as toxic, but I'll just say difficult. This may be a troubled person. I'm not saying that you need to be a psychologist here, but there's times when a troubled person is having a trouble at home, maybe illness, maybe a partner who's ill, something going on, depression, anxiety, and it's leaking out at work. This person may mean well, but they're doing what we call acting out at work and it's coming up at certain times and situations and they're behaving in an abusive manner nobody should have to deal with in a work situation. So I wonder about that.

And sometimes somebody who gets things done or is well-connected to management is kind of allowed to be kind of toxic. Their behavior is kind of overlooked. There are a lot of angles to look at this. This might be time for a conversation with that person. When you're having a conversation like this, I'm just throwing that out there, you know them and I don't, conversation may not be possible. I just think two adults in a work situation can find a way to talk. Can you have a conversation? I would not walk in and accuse that person, "You're toxic, you're difficult, you're abusive," because that causes defensiveness. I would use high terms. I would say, "We worked together great and you've had some great ideas. I loved it that time we worked together on this. There was another time when I needed some help. You had a great idea." Talk about which works, start out positive.

"However, I just want to mention a couple of things. Last week you sent me an email. I felt like I was being accused. Not you were accusatory. I felt accused. You said this and then you commented on that. I felt accused. So here's how I'm feeling. I want to work well with you. Going to give you some support here. Is there something we could do to heal our relationship?" I would try bring in evidence. "This happened, this happened. Here's an email you sent me. Wow, I underlined something you said that I was blown away." Evidence, evidence based. And then own your own feelings. "Here's how I feel. Here's how I felt. How can we work together? I want us to work together well." It might be worth an approach.

Now, if this continues to worsen to the point that you're having trouble getting your job done and you're just feeling awful all the time, you may want to make sure on certain communications you CC your leader or you CC other people. You may want to at some point engage someone in management or HR who could in turn suggest the EAP, the employee assistance program, to this employee. Get involved and say, "We've had numerous people talk about some abusive behavior on your part. We're going to give you a management referral to EAP. We're going to ask you to work on this."

Organizations have become much more sensitive to the role of toxic or abusive employees. I think they're really trying to do something about that, which is why leading edge organizations are bringing in employee assistance and mental health services to employees, making them available, and even doing management referrals when they need to. So this might be an opportunity. And this is somebody who's always going to be there and you don't see that changing, this might be some time from some radical acceptance also. Radical acceptance means, "This person's going to have bad days. This person's going to blow up at times or be a little rude or whatever. You know what? I'm not going to expect anything less. I'm not going to expect anything more. I'm just going to be okay with it." Radical acceptance is, "Maybe not going to change. I'm going to learn how to be okay with it." That's another angle to take. Be careful about taking this personal. Sometimes troubled people, it comes out everywhere. So I'm giving you different angles to handle this. I would encourage you to address it in some way, at least with yourself.

Anita Brick: Okay, so what if the damage is already done to the person who's been receiving, I'll just call it negative behavior toward them. But what would you suggest that they do to fortify themselves, to protect themselves, given that the working relationship is going to continue and it's become less predictable, shall we say?

Gary McClain: Yes. Got it. Got it. Yes. Well, at that point I think it may be time to reach out to someone in HR and have a conversation, bring the evidence with you, this, this, and this, and just say, "I want to work here. I want to get my job done. I want to grow with this company. This is what's happening this is how I'm feeling, and this is how it's impacting me." Maybe engage other people who are also being affected and going as a group and say, "We've got a problem here. This is a person who's creating a toxic work environment. Got to do something about this."

This is what HR is there for, to help address this. Not to start a movement or stab somebody in the back. I'm not suggesting that. But if you're coming across engaging with other employees who are also feeling this way, this might be a time to maybe as a group have a conversation with somebody at the upper level in the organization or your leader's leader, whatever, or your leader, depending on who's in charge and where the management structure is, and HR and say, "We have a toxic situation here. We need some help," and see if they can intervene as well.

Anita Brick: It's a good point. And it seems like more companies have, they call them different things, but they have wellness organizations.

Gary McClain: Absolutely.

Anita Brick: And that can be a safer way maybe to do it. I see that as a growing trend, which I think is a really good growing trend.

Gary McClain: Yeah, me too. Me too. Work and life. We bring our work home and we bring our home to work. Leading edge companies recognize we need to have mental health services available for our team members to support them from a mental health perspective and that the company benefits from that.

Anita Brick: Yeah, I agree. So here's a situation. I suspect that you've worked with someone who's worked at a company that was taken over by a private equity firm.

Gary McClain: Absolutely. Yeah. Frequently, frequently.

Anita Brick: Frequently, frequently. So here's an MBA student and she said, "My company was recently purchased by a private equity firm and they are making lots of changes. One is that my manager was asked to leave and someone from the PE firm is now my manager. She has expressed a desire to bring more qualified people into the team. I consider myself a very capable person, and I just finished my MBA. How would you suggest someone approach this situation? I know I cannot come out and ask if I'm in or out. Where would you suggest that someone start? By the way, I am a senior product manager with more than a decade of experience."

Gary McClain: This is a difficult situation. I sympathize and empathize with you. I was in a situation like that myself many years ago. I was a strategy and a marketing organization. I was kind of a strategic person. And my team, we came to work in jeans, we did lots of cool, touchy-feely kinds of qualitative research, and it was all very cool. We enjoyed our work. And then our boss got a new boss and this new boss came in and she was wearing a navy blue power suit. Basically told us, "I want a team of MBAs who know how to crunch numbers. Who's on board?" Kind of looked at each other and realized we're going to have to figure this out. I'm kind of envisioning this person in a navy blue power suit, maybe who has different priorities for how things are done.

In a corporations, big small organization, it's really important to manage up. So if you want to stay there and you want to continue to grow, you want to hang on, I would say get to know her. Ask her, "Can we have lunch together? Or can I pop onto your schedule?" And then ask questions. "Curious, what are your goals? What are your hopes for the team? What's important to you? Can we go over my accomplishments? Can we go over my strengths and how I've contributed. And I suspect you may be addressing this, this, and this. I actually have a couple of ideas about that." Solutions that you can bring to her, contributions. In other words, build a relationship. See if you can build a relationship. Find a way to connect with this person.

I think a really important, again, communication. What you don't want to do here is you don't want to fall into avoidance. You don't want to hide from her. Then, you start to build up what you think she's thinking. She starts to build up in her mind what she thinks you're thinking. Nobody's on the same page. Get on the same page with her. Have some conversations. "Here's some ideas I have. Here's some things I think we could be addressing. Here's how I think we can grow." How can you help her to be more successful? She's there to be successful. How can you support her in that as well? Be realistic. Get in touch with your network. Polish up your resume. Protect yourself. Take care of yourself. In human beings we're not wired for uncertainty. We don't like it. It just causes anxiety and it causes us to want to pull back. And this is the time to push forward and connect. Go ahead. Thank you.

Anita Brick: It takes a lot of courage to do that.

Gary McClain: Yes, yes.

Anita Brick: And my guess is that in a PE environment, the new person, the new manager, has a lot of pressure on her as well.

Gary McClain: Yes, absolutely.

Anita Brick: And if you have courage, and again, you have to read the situation and all this stuff, but if you believe that having that conversation is the right thing to do, it also demonstrates courage, which is probably what she's looking for in employees and team members too.

Gary McClain: Very good point. Absolutely. She's looking to see who's willing to step up and grow and adjust.

Anita Brick: Right, right.

Gary McClain: Who's willing to be on the new team and to embrace it and be optimistic. Who's willing? Who's ready to do that? And you can be that person.

Anita Brick: I would agree. I think again, it's reading the situation.

Gary McClain: Yes.

Anita Brick: To see maybe do it in a series of iterative steps rather than all at once.

Gary McClain: Absolutely. And build that relationship, and try to build it over time. Absolutely. Yeah.

Anita Brick: I love it. Do you have time for one more question?

Gary McClain: I certainly do. Sure, I love this. I'm enjoying this. Thank you.

Anita Brick: Good. Well, that's the objective. So we like to be practical and actionable.

Gary McClain: Yes.

Anita Brick: And encouraging too. If we can do all three in one, if that's really great. What are three things that a person could do today to stay motivated and create a successful outcome for overcoming unexpected career challenges?

Gary McClain: That's a really great question. I think a really important question given our discussion today. I'm a mental health person, so I just have to put number one is to get emotional support. Human beings we're emotional beings. When you've had a setback, get some emotional support. Sure get professional support, your network and all that. We'll talk about that in a minute. But I think first and foremost, to get emotional support. Have a place to vent. You can say to them, "I don't need advice. I don't need judgment please. What I do need is you to just hear me out. I just need to vent for a while. I've had a big setback. I'm scared. I'm angry. I'm frustrated. And I just need to talk about my feelings. I just want to talk." Now that can be through the EAP, employee assistance. It can be somebody you find on your own, a therapist. It might be a partner, a good friend. Get emotional support. We're emotional beings. Get support. That's one.

Two, if you've had a setback, go back to your foundation. Sit down with yourself. Review your resume. What are my skills? Who am I the go-to person for? My abilities. What are my personal qualities? My experience. Who's in my network? My education. This is going to help you get grounded. And when you've had a setback, you may just feel all over the place. You may feel worthless. You may feel hopeless. You may feel you're not sure what you bring to the table anymore. You may just be kind of lost in your thoughts. That's human, of course. However, again, emotional support and review your foundation, get grounded. This is your foundation. Nobody can take that away. It's also your launching pad to the next step in your career, wherever that's going to go. If you connect with your foundation, this is going to help you to evaluate your next steps. "Okay, this is my brand here. How can I start to leverage this? I can start to move over here. But you know what? I could kind of move over there too. Maybe? Who knows? Maybe I should think about this?" So that's going to help you to get grounded.

And three, again, we're social animals connect with your network. Start setting up meetings, even if you don't feel like it. And then so many times clients will say to me, "I just feel beaten down and awful. How am I supposed to put on a clean shirt and go to lunch with somebody? How can I do that?" And I say, "You make that decision." It's a rational decision. The feelings will catch up later. Start sending those emails, make the calls. "Hey, it's been a while. Can we have lunch? Hey, it's been a while. I've had a little setback, kind of out in the market again. I'm in the market again. Can we have a talk?" Start connecting with your network because I'm sure anybody listening in probably knows, yes, you can find a job through a resume to a company's website. I got that. But a lot of our jobs are also found through networking, reconnect with your network also. That's empowering. The idea here is to empower yourself. We need that.

Anita Brick: I totally agree. Because when you do those things, when you get the support, sometimes for a support is to just vent and have a place, a safe place.

Gary McClain: Yes.

Anita Brick: And then to leverage your foundation, what's important to you, like you said, where you are a go-to person, people value you, and they valued you in the past and they'll value you in the future, and maybe there are a few new options. And then let other people help. Let them know and take it at a pace that works for you. And I think that's really very valuable solid wisdom.

Gary McClain: Thank you. And I just want to add in response to what you just said, what I thought of also was that we learn where we add value as a professional is by what other people tell us, what other people ask us. Somebody comes to you and says, "You're so good at this. Can you help me with this?" Or, "You're the go-to person for that. Can you jump in here?" We learn a lot about where we add value by people telling us, "This is where you add value." And I think that's part of your foundation as well. And again, build on that, leverage it. Absolutely.

Anita Brick: I like that a lot. And it makes me think of an exercise that a friend shared with me and he said when he isn't sure of what his value is, he's had a set back here or there, he'll go out to five people he really trusts and ask them when is he at his best and what is he doing? And I think that's a very powerful two-part question. I mean, not to overstate, but sometimes we may question those foundational pieces when we've had an unexpected challenge, or even an challenge that wasn't unexpected, but have a challenge, and having it come from people that we trust, it can reinforce and maybe even surprise us with some things that we didn't even know.

Gary McClain: That's a great excellent point. Absolutely. That's a great idea. And I think the word that comes to mind here is resilience.

Anita Brick: Right.

Gary McClain: As well. Resilient people are able to rock and roll with the change. And then they do that by getting support. And they do that by building up their own self-talk. And they do that by taking action. That's the meaning of resilience, right?

Anita Brick: Absolutely. And it sounds like you gave us two three-part bursts, and that's great. So we had a double bonus here, so I appreciate that, Gary. Well, thank you so much. This has been terrific. It's been strategic and practical and kind because I think there's a kindness that comes from you that we can learn from to be kind to ourselves as well. And the power of closure was very enlightening to me. I know we spoke about elements of it today, and it's quite practical too. So thank you for writing it. Thank you for putting your heart in it. And thank you for all that you've given us today.

Gary McClain: Well, you're welcome, Anita. It was great to speak with you. I really enjoyed this conversation. You made my day, so thank you so much. Thank you very much. Thanks everybody.

Anita Brick: My gosh, thank you. And thank you all for listening. This is Anita Brick with CareerCast at Chicago Booth. Keep advancing.