Should You Stay or Go

Anita Brick: Hi, this is Anita Brick, and welcome to CareerCast at Chicago Booth. To help you advance in your career. Today we're delighted to be speaking with Pete Devenyi. He has spent his career working in software and technology development in networking, telecom and logistics. He held senior technical executive positions at large global companies, leading hundreds of technologists around the world. His overarching goal has always been to develop great products that leave a lasting impact on society. Pete, I would probably add “and develop people so that they become great human beings.” Just sayin’. He is an accomplished speaker and the author of a popular book, Decoding Your STEM Career. He earned bachelor's and master's degrees in electrical engineering from the University of Toronto, and continues to consult actively in the fields of warehouse automation, software development, and robotics.

Pete, thank you so much for making time for us today. Love the book. It was super interesting to me that your focus throughout it was all really about creating good human beings, and that you learn from the ones that were good models and not-so-good models. Glad that you're here.

Pete Devenyi: Well, thank you, Anita, and I really do appreciate the opportunity to be on your show and look forward to the discussion that we're going to have today so much.

Anita Brick: Wonderful. So let's just start with a leveling question. When you think about it at a very basic level, what are three key factors in a stay or go decision?

Pete Devenyi: It's a great question, as I think most people know, there are so many factors that ultimately lead to someone making a decision whether to stay or to go.

The first most important thing to do is to trust your gut. Think about that and we get that uneasy feeling. We at least know that something is wrong. It could be your boss, the environment, the atmosphere, pay, lack of learning, etc. But it is really important to understand that something is wrong and then you have to zero in and figure out what it is.

So number one, make sure you're leaving for the right reason. Understand what that reason is, and make sure that as you make the move, you are going to gain new experiences that offer you some value that you are not getting in your current job and will help you grow. Don't be afraid to explore within your current company, not just outside the current company. Too often people are unhappy with their job and they think that they have to leave. Yet they may be in an organization that can offer them an alternative role to the one that they have right now. That will be the best move for them at the time.

Anita Brick: Those are good, Pete. Here's a question, and this is a good one. And actually I explored this question myself several years ago. “I really like my organization, team and work, yet I am stuck and not advancing. A new job could expand my responsibilities, title, and compensation, and yet I could lose out on things I highly value. What would you advise someone to do to reduce the risk of making an external change?”

Pete Devenyi: These are such interesting questions. Why is it you really are exploring leaving at this point in time? If you like the company that you're at and you're getting value out of it, you're learning from it. You like the people you work with. You like your boss. Before you make any move, do some soul searching. Figure out what it is that's missing. It must be something. If you're considering leaving a current job. And it's usually not just one thing. There are so many reasons we leave a job or a company. It's almost always 2 or 3 or 4 or 5 things that no longer fit, that are forcing you to really consider something new.

What I would say is that if you have that feeling in your gut, but still tied to the company, you generally like the people, it is time to have a conversation and often with your boss, and hopefully it is a boss that is open enough to have this conversation. You don't have to tell them that you're likely going to leave, but you could share with them what are the concerns that you are feeling. Make sure you balance the conversation. Talk about the things that you really like, but also talk about the areas that you're concerned about. And if it's not your boss, find somebody else within the company that you can talk it through with to give you the advice that you may be looking for. Critical to make the right decision for the right reason, as opposed to just leaving because you think you can make a little bit more money somewhere else, or you think the grass might be greener on the other side of the street when it rarely is.

Know what you want. Know why you want it. Make sure the time is right for making this move. And then when you find something that fits all of those characteristics, don't hesitate. Jump in and jump in with both feet. Never look back. It almost always turns out to be a good direction. It might just take another move or two before the benefits come into full view.

Anita Brick: It's a really good point, and an alum asked, “How do you know if you're running away from something or if it is a good move?” And I think you laid that out. It should be progressive. It should be a growth opportunity, that you like the team. If you feel like you're escaping, that's probably not the right time to make a move. Or would you agree or disagree with that?

Pete Devenyi: I generally do agree with that. It really depends on what you're escaping from. Some situations can be so bad if it's a harassment situation or you're really not feeling valued, that the feelings are so strong. Under almost any circumstances, you need to find something new. You need to get out. But most of the time we don't leave for those reasons. Most of the time. We have smaller issues that build upon each other. We're not feeling fulfilled. We're not feeling we're learning enough. Maybe we think we should be earning more money. We think we should have been considered for a promotion that we didn't get. And our egos are hurt.

It is important that those times to take a step back. It's still okay to leave, but you also need to talk it through and think it through. Don't leave too quickly without making sure first that you're not making a move that you are likely to regret because it was somehow an instinctive reaction out of hurt or frustration. Those moves usually don't work out so well.

Anita Brick: Okay, so here's something, feels like it's a little bit of both. And alum said, she said, “Three months ago I was put on a performance improvement plan. It's going okay, but not as well as I hope I have three more months on this plan. I know this is a hard question for you to answer, but Pete, would you advise someone to do their best and stick it out, or find another job and resign once you have enough?”

Pete Devenyi: I'm going to be very direct in answering this question. Right or wrong, in 37 years in corporate jobs with neighborhood of 25 or 27 of those years in leadership and senior leadership positions, I can count certainly on one hand, when a performance improvement plan has worked out and people continue to have good, strong careers within that company. It happens from time to time. It's fairly rare. There is a reason that something didn't work out in order to get on a performance improvement plan. Now, it may be that there's another opportunity within the company to take on a new job, but to stay in that same role usually doesn't work out, even if you get through a performance improvement plan, and then you carry on working in the same capacity that you were working in before you were put on it.

My advice in these situations would be to have open conversations, really learn and be open with yourself in terms of what led to this situation. Try to improve. But it is a good reason usually to find a new environment and to take advantage of the time that you have to look for something different while you are still working in a company.

As the old saying goes, it's always easier to find a job when you have a job. In my estimation, the risks of staying it through, particularly if you're feeling that you're not that highly valued at the company, there's a very high risk that the performance improvement plan will not work out in the long run. And then you are faced with a situation where you have to find a job where you're out of work, which can be more difficult.

My advice would be it's a pretty good time to look for something else and really figure out what it is that you're looking for and go for it.

Anita Brick: I would agree, I think I've only known one person who got off of a performance improvement plan and stayed with the company for another five years, but that's one out of a lot of people.

And, you know, I would agree and disagree a little bit with what you said. It's always easier to find a job when you have a job. I think that that was true pre-pandemic and that was really, really true. I do think that in this situation, not having a job for the reason you don't have a job would make it a lot harder.

Here's another related [question]. This is from a student. And he said, “When I think of a decision to stay or go, some changes are my choice. One is not: we just merged with another company. With a variety of things out of my control, how would you advise someone to plan, decide, and act?”

Pete Devenyi: Give it a chance. I mean, that's happened to me more than once in my career. In fact, at the last job that I was in, it was very interesting in that I was at a company called Thematic, the largest warehouse automation company in the world, and we were acquired by the Keon Group, who is the second largest forklift truck manufacturer in the world. All of a sudden, these two companies merged. We moved from being a 3000-person company or so. At the time, I was part of a 35,000 person company. It took all of us a minute to get adjusted to the new reality. We were previously owned by private equity, but we were run independently and now we were part of a big, big company. Different cultural values. But it did open up a number of really interesting new opportunities. They were a good owner for us, continued to be a good owner for the company, but it was very different.

The first bit of advice I would say is give it a little bit of time, see how it works out. It may be that it has the ability to offer a set of opportunities that were unavailable to you prior to the merger or to the acquisition.

So I've always found these to be exciting times. If months go by and it turns out that this is not what you are looking for, then probably a good time to explore other opportunities. But only once you know that this isn't going to work out. Frequently these mergers and acquisitions work out much better than the situation was before it happened. So keep an open mind.

Anita Brick: And of course be part of the solution to build those bridges.

Pete Devenyi: Absolutely.

Anita Brick: Here's a question that I hear a lot. This is from another MBA student. And he said, I am currently in a more technical role, and I'm getting my MBA to move to the business side. My current organization isn't interested in having me make that pivot.

I like my company. How have you seen technology people make this type of internal shift, or do you think an external shift would be required?

Pete Devenyi: I think in a situation like this, the first question to ask yourself honestly is why is my current organization not interested in helping me move into more of a business or a management role. And to have that conversation openly and honestly.

Most organizations, whether formally or informally, you can remain very technical and do well in a purely technical career or take that fork in the road to be in management. And again, most companies will help you and advise you to go in one direction or another. And I think it's important in this case to understand, you know, where you are on that path and why the company thinks perhaps what they think.

I would say that technical knowledge and continued learning is critical in any technical company, even if you move on to the management career path. And that's something that I always focused on myself. Even when I was working at senior executive levels, I always spent a lot of time to continue to better myself technically and stay abreast of emerging technologies, etc.

On top of that, I would say really focus at this point in your career at building up those other non-technical skills. And I would have to imagine that's one of the reasons why the company is less eager to have you move into a management role at this point.

Anita Brick: Not to interrupt, but to interrupt. Gently interrupt. That's why he is getting his MBA. Maybe there's something else going on because the MBA is on the business side, from accounting to finance to marketing. He's already doing that. Do you think that it's just that companies will sometimes label someone as a technical person and never see them on the other side, no matter what they do? Or do you think maybe there is something else that he needs to do internally to pave the way?

Pete Devenyi: Good companies shouldn't do that. Do some? Sure. You know, do some poor leaders label you and and don't see you know, the other possibilities for you. It may happen. Getting an MBA is obviously a great path to go down and will help you and in many ways. Also focusing on true leadership skills and communication skills and mentoring skills – those day-to-day capabilities, attributes that companies are looking for – need to be learned, and they can be learned in team leadership positions. They can be learned by just taking ad hoc roles within a company and showing what you can do, even if it isn't part of your day to day role.

You know, in many ways, that's what I focus on so heavily in the book, and it's really been my motivation as I talk to people over and over again. What are all these skills that you need in order to open up these opportunities? And you need to practice and nurture all of these other skills in your day to day technical role in order to open up these other opportunities.

And if a company is blind to it and there's another opportunity out there that's better, go for it. Just be convinced that it's them and not you that's causing that to happen. Maybe you're not ready yet and have the open conversation. Yeah, sometimes, and I've done it myself in my career, I got frustrated with the opportunities that were not being opened up for me, and I left. I just always tried to do it for the right reasons with my eyes wide open.

Anita Brick: So speaking of that, there are few questions related to that. One is, how long should you stay at a company before switching to maximize career growth? I assume big companies will underpay and under-level you relative to the market rate if you stay too long.

Pete Devenyi: It happens. I think maybe it happens a little bit less these days than it used to. One of the things I was happy to see has become more standardized now are these progression increases, where it used to be, there were limited salary increases annually. Merit increases were often tied to inflation. And unless you got promoted, the merit increases somehow didn't properly reflect your gained experience and you could find better paying jobs elsewhere. I've been heartened to see that there are often these progression increases that make sure that you are paid truly, fairly based on your experience. Not at every company, but at many companies. And we all know what our value is on the outside. Or at least it's worth poking around from time to time to find out.

If you're undervalued, and it happens from time to time, and your company isn't willing to make it right, that is often one of the important motivations behind leaving. We do have to be careful not to build a resume that sees us leaving, you know, every year we have a new job or even every two years. In the US, the Bureau of Labor Statistics shows that the average amount of time that anyone spends in a particular job or company is for somewhere in the neighborhood of four years. I always felt that an average of about five years is good from a resume perspective. Sometimes that may be two or three years and sometimes 10. But if you show up with a resume that shows that you've had 12 jobs in 15 years, often eyebrows raise questioning how committed this person is likely to be if we hire them.

So I think we have to be cautious of that. There's variation there, and I looked at myself. I had 37 years. I had six major companies that I worked at, so I averaged six years or so. And I always thought that was a pretty good average somewhere around there. That's what I would tend to look for, to make sure that people were committed in the companies that they were at, and they didn't have a history of moving too frequently.

Anita Brick: I think you made a good point. If you have multiple roles within a company, that’s actually different than multiple companies. I'm sure you didn't have one job in each of those companies.

Pete Devenyi: Absolutely not. Highly valued by prospective employers to see your movement within a company certainly are impressed if they've seen your progression within a company. Yes, I worked at six different companies, but probably averaged four or five different jobs within each one of those companies over a period of time.

So yeah, couldn't have said that better myself. I absolutely agree with you. And that's critical.

Anita Brick: Okay. Another question, which I think is an interesting one because people want to grow. Another MBA student said, “I am seeking more responsibility, people management, and greater compensation. If I receive an external offer, and of course before accepting it, what leverage do you see people have in the company making a counter-offer? Are there times when you've seen that done successfully and what did the person do?”

Pete Devenyi: And that happens all the time. If this is something that you've done as a manager on the side of a person potentially exiting the company. I always appreciate itt when a valued employee came to me before they signed on the dotted line and accepted another offer to give me the opportunity to see if there was something that I can do.

I remember the very first job that I ever had when I left, the small computer company called GACK, and I ended up getting an offer from IBM. I didn't accept it yet. I did go back to let them know my inclination was to accept the offer, and they did turn around to counteroffer for me. And a good one. It didn't turn out to be enough to stop me from moving, but it certainly would have been enough to keep me there in the first place had I not started out looking. So it's always important as a manager to keep your eyes open, because it's hard to turn around somebody who has an inclination to leave with a counteroffer.

But sometimes it works. I think what's very important is to come back, say that you wanted to talk about it because your inclination was to accept this offer. Obviously, you wouldn't have gone to look for another job if you weren't leaning in that direction. But talk about all the things you like about the company, why this is a difficult decision for you, and have a very constructive conversation.

Most managers respond very positively and favorably to something like that within the boundaries of what they're capable of doing. As a leader, I was always disheartened if somebody left without even giving me the opportunity to perhaps counter, particularly if they were on the fence.

Anita Brick: Okay. Do you have time for a couple more questions?

Pete Devenyi: I sure do.

Anita Brick: Excellent. This is kind of a follow on, in a way, to the question we just discussed. Another Boothie said, “How would you advise someone to leave positively and graciously and not burn any bridges?”

Pete Devenyi: And great question there too. And so important. And you know, I've seen such a wide range of emotions and conversations take place when someone leaves. And the key element to leaving on a positive note is to be constructive and positive yet honest. And sometimes we really are disgruntled with somebody. And there is a very strong reason why we are leaving a company. Even in those situations, it's critical to find balance between being open and honest and direct with why you're leaving, but also talk about all the positive things that have happened.

It is important. That's the reason there are these exit interviews. Do it in this constructive tone. Don't send a letter to say how terrible this person was to you and what a rotten experience you had over the last several months at this company. You can weave that into a conversation in terms of you have concerns in this area and that area, and these are some examples. But overall, you've really enjoyed working at the company. You learned a tremendous amount. You wish nothing but the best for the future of the company. It's important to find that balance and to leave those doors open. It's always a small world and you don't want your negative emotions to take control and end up slamming doors behind you.

Anita Brick: Absolutely. One follow on to that is where does the transition brand fit in. As you're exiting, what are you leaving behind to make the transition as smooth and seamless as possible? Tell us a little bit about what you think is included in a good transition plan. Do you always need it? To me it seems like a good idea, but I'd really like to get your perspective.

Pete Devenyi: I think it's very important. When you do leave a job, and it may even be that you're not leaving a company, you may be moving into a different job within the same company, is if you have the opportunity to work closely with the person that is going to be taking over for you, help them be successful. Put a real effort into documenting all the things that they need to know, writing a transition plan for them. That helps so much in leaving a positive impression in the minds of others, and how much effort you put into making sure that that transition would be a smooth one.

You know, on the other way around, focus on your own transition. Focus on something that is going to be able to accomplish your business goals, your career goals better because you've taken on this new opportunity. I always talked about moving from a large company to a small one, or a small one to a large one, or to a midsize one. Do things that you haven't done before, because each one of these opportunities offers a vast array of new experiences that you wouldn't be able to achieve if you stayed. So, variability is good because it broadens you in ways that perhaps are not not obvious.

Anita Brick: Well, you've given us a lot to think about. And I do think this is a very difficult decision for most people. It is made spontaneously and sometimes with regret or that it just never happens. People think about it, think about it and think about it, but it doesn't happen.

Pete Devenyi: You know, the last thing I would say is that some people have remarkable careers never leaving a company, and I always admired them. They spend 40 years at a company, and many of them even rose to the top of the company. And others moved around many times and that tends to be a more typical path, where you move 6 or 7 times and gain new experiences. But there is no one right answer. Everyone's different. Every opportunity is different. Look inside yourself, trust your gut, and make the right decisions for the right reasons for you. And if you think about it, hard enough, the reasons should become clear.

Anita Brick: It's a good point. So let's get really practical and actionable. When you think about it, what are three things that a person could do to make a successful stay or go decision that will accelerate their career success and satisfaction, not just with an eye toward today, but with an eye toward the future as well.

Pete Devenyi: Number one, I would say, assuming you've thought through all the things that we've talked about, number one, make the move that is new and unique and will help you grow in some way. That is critical. Try not to move to a job that feels the same in so many ways. New skills will open up new opportunities down the road.

Number two, at a certain point in time, titles matter. If you do make a move and you're a manager and you have an opportunity to move to a director level, let's say that does matter from time to time. I remember when I got my first vice president job at a midsize or even a smaller technology company. All of a sudden I started to get recruited for other vice president jobs, and I never would have been in that position had I not landed that title. So I'm not saying move for titles, but I think it is important to know that sometimes titles matter.

And the third thing I would say is look for something that excites you, that you feel energy that is palpable through the interview, that you feel like you're going to make a difference in the world. You feel like this matters. You feel like this is a company that you will be proud to work for.

When you put all those three things together, you end up leaving without any doubt. It's good for your career. It's exciting. You're learning new skills. It almost can't go wrong. And as I said, even if it doesn't work out the way you think it would or thought it would, it will lead somewhere very good as part of your next move.

Anita Brick: And clearly you are a testament to that. Thank you very much to unpack this go, no go decision process because it can be a scary one and it can be filled with doubt. Thank you for taking some of the mystery away from that and giving us some clear guidance. So very, very appreciate your making time for us today and wish you all the best. You continue to improve people's lives with your book and with our conversation today, so Pete, thank you very much.

Pete Devenyi: Thank you so much for having me, Anita. I really enjoyed it.

Anita Brick: And I am glad that we were able to make this work. And thank you all for listening. This is Anita Brick with CareerCast at Chicago Booth. Keep advancing.