Reputation, Personal Brand, and Success

Anita Brick: Hi, this is Anita Brick and welcome to CareerCast at Chicago Booth. To help you advance in your career. Today, very delighted to be speaking with Lida Citroën. She is the author of Control the Narrative: The Executive Guide to Building, Pivoting, and Repairing Your Reputation. She is an award-winning branding and reputation management expert who designs and enhances the identities of executives, entrepreneurs, and thought leaders globally.

Maybe you could start us off by briefly sharing the difference between a personal brand and a reputation.

Lida Citroën: Well, first of all, thank you for having me, Anita. I'm really excited to have this conversation. Reputation and brand are often intertwined. I catch myself doing the same thing. One of the ways I like to explain it is your brand, your personal brand is what you do. Your reputation is what you earn. So if you think about it, is you know what you're proactively managing and driving and measuring. That's your brand. What you earn in return, hopefully, is a positive reputation. But if you're not driving and managing your brand, you could potentially earn a negative reputation.

Anita Brick:  Well, it was interesting. There were a lot of questions, and it seemed like a lot of questions were around pivoting your brand. Let's start off with one that came from an MBA student, and she said: “How do I get a realistic view of my personal brand? What's your advice on how to ask people for areas of development when most people don't like to give negative feedback?”

Lida Citroën: Well, and it’s a great question. One of the things that's really critical is confidentiality. So make sure there's a foundation of trust because you're asking someone not to say is Anita a nice person? But what are some words you would use to describe Anita? You're looking for data. And if you have a foundation of trust, then that person is going to feel okay giving feedback that may not be pleasant to hear. We don't want people slinging arrows just for the sake of being hurtful. You really want insight and feedback is data. So building a foundation of trust. And then the really important thing when you ask people for feedback, whether it's in person, email, however, is to just say thank you.

Our temptation is to want to defend or excuse or help the person understand that what they just offered, if it is negative, isn't true. They're wrong. And let me show you why I'm right. But really, if you think of feedback as a gift because it's going to give you insight, then you just say thank you. Which candidly really builds that foundation of trust because we want to hear all of the feedback. We don't just want to hear the wonderful, cheery stuff, even though it's great to hear because we want to know where we need to improve or where we need to, you know, modulate how we come across.

Anita Brick: Do you say thank you at the beginning? So that you set it up so that the person feels comfortable, because it sounds like a student is asking for feedback, but not getting it?

Lida Citroën: When you're going to ask for feedback, tell people, this is what I'm trying to do. I want to make sure that the way I'm coming across actually maps to how I want to be perceived. So I would love to get some insight from you and some of the feedback isn't positive/negative. It's what are the keywords that you would assign to me? What kind of opportunities would you consider me perfect for? So they're not positives/negatives and I think that really helps too.

So it has to do with trust. It also has to do with the questions. You get to ask the right questions to get the right feedback. So I think again you have to be clear on what it is you want feedback for. If you're looking for data, then you need to know what kind of data you're looking for. Because if you get the wrong data, it doesn't mean anything. There's a lot that goes into it. I feel for that person because it's great to get positive, but we want the realistic feedback as well.

Anita Brick: Because we want to get better.

So there were a couple of questions that were related to making a pivot. This is another MBA student and he said: “I'm in the midst of a rebranding. I spent a number of years in management positions in large corporations, and now I launched a venture that will need funding. What advice would you have about creating a brand of a strong founder that has the ability to operate without the elaborate infrastructure of a global company?”

So this is a standard question, people. It's all the time. And from technical to strategic. I've been in an operating role. I want to move to executive leadership. What are the things that you advise someone if they're actually making a shift where their own brand doesn't work anymore?

Lida Citroën: First is to understand what isn't working. And in the book, I draw the parallel between making a pivot to sort of waking up in the morning and perhaps finding a new mission for life. A pivot is very different than building your brand. It's also very different from repairing your reputation, which people get those mixed up. People change career focus. You know, this individual's going from being part of the infrastructure to now being the face of the infrastructure, and make sure your story is really clear. So when you think about positioning yourself to investors or positioning yourself to strategic business partners or allies, what is the story you're going to tell of why this shift made sense for you? Honestly, people will tend to trust what you first tell them until they see evidence otherwise. So if you tell people my years of working in global companies really showed me there was this inadequacy or this weakness, and I felt it was my passion to now develop it on my own. You're creating the narrative of what was before to what is going forward.

What I read into the question also is the passion of the individual. There's this model I love to say, and that is the Shark Tank model. Watch Shark Tank, and they're positioning themselves in front of these investors and these entrepreneurs and inventors and innovators. 90% of the time the valuation falls apart or something about the business model isn't there. And the investors always say, tell me about you. What's your story? Because people are attached to that story. So when you're doing a pivot, it isn't enough to say, I'm going to leave everything behind, because this individual's probably not leaving everything behind. It's understanding what assets to bring forward. Who are the contacts, what are the accomplishments, and the sort of the checkmarks on that reputation checklist that make this next venture make sense. And then carefully looking at the ones that it's okay to move away from. If your target audience is changing, you don't need to be as focused to the audiences that you served before. Now you have new audiences. There's a lot of nuance to a pivot. It's all about that narrative, all about how you tell the story. So other people say, well, yeah, that makes perfect sense. Now I'm ready to have a conversation with you about what the new thing is.

Anita Brick: Really good points, because I think people struggle with it and sometimes they think, well, it's too big of a gap.

One of the things I took away from the book is that consistency is really key. And as you said, people will believe what we say at the beginning, so we have to be at least cognizant of that until we say something that is in conflict.

Lida Citroën: Or do something.

Anita Brick: Or do something. Of course. Of course, thinking they won't know. But yet saying or doing something. An alum was a little curious about this: “You talk about consistency in brand. How do you create that consistency when you're making a fairly significant career change? The evidence, experience, markers that you could point to really aren't there. What advice would you give someone to create actions to support a new brand?”

Lida Citroën: Another fabulous question. Your audience is obviously very attuned to some of these concepts. You know, brands are anchored in clarity, confidence, and consistency. So clarity means I know where I'm heading. I know what I want my life to mean. I know who I am and what I stand for and the values that I represent. Confidence means I can hold my head high and move forward through this branding and earn the reputation.

But as you mentioned, consistency is the king. None of us are going to be perfect. So branding is never about perfection, but consistency is where we learn to trust. So I'll take it at face value. But over time when I see consistent action and communication around that value set, that's when I'll learn to trust it. And what she's talking about is when you're making a significant shift. How do you stay consistent?

I'll use myself as an example. I went from 20 years in corporate America helping to stand up some of the biggest brands and organizations. Throughout that 20 years, I was a certain way. I had built a certain reputation. When I pivoted to starting my own business in 2008, when the entire world's economy was falling apart, I became an entrepreneur. Yeah, who does that? But my value proposition worked, so it was actually ideal timing. I just didn't know it at the time. I had to look back and say, what were the assets that I really had over those 20 years? Because I'm doing something totally different. Very similar to the last question, I was leaving the infrastructure of big company name recognition and starting this little company out of Denver, Colorado.

But what were the assets? I've always been strategic. I've always been a very passionate, empathetic person. I'm very committed to the work that I do annd the people I work with. Those were assets I wanted to bring forward. The place I did it changed, but I didn't change.

And it's also important to remember that brand isn't your job, and that's often really confusing. But your brand is who you are. It isn't what you do necessarily. I work a lot with military veterans that are, you know, leaving the military, and that is the identity that they've been attached to. Kind of separating those and getting that clarity as an individual is really important. Whether you're making a pivot, building a brand, or repairing your reputation.

Anita Brick: That's a very good point, because sometimes people think, oh, I have to let everything go. When you think about it the way you described it, there are values and attributes and characteristics and talents that are fairly universal, but we have to own those first.

Lida Citroën: Oh, absolutely. I mean, when I started my business, I didn't close every social media account. No, it's still me. A lot of the relationships that I had over 20 years became some of my early clients. But a lot of them I did shed because they were relationships based on the work I was doing for the companies I was doing, and they weren't serving me in this new focus.

But it's being mindful of that and not just letting it happen, you know, because attrition happens. It was being really strategic and saying, what are the assets I'm going to need to bring forward? How do I manage and nurture them to grow this new brand or this new positioning? And what are the ones I don't have to focus on as much? So we have to be paying attention to what our audience needs. As much as we pay attention to what we need.

Anita Brick: Absolutely. And I think, and you epitomize this by the way, that courage comes into play. Because I remember in the book you talked about how in the beginning again in a time where financial debacle, bad economy, you had a big project. For your old brand, for your old world. I thought it took a great deal of courage to say no. That's an important part, too, to know even if it feels comfortable, sometimes we have to say no. And as I said, your example in the book was very encouraging and it showed a great deal of focus and courage.

Lida Citroën: Thank you. In the moment, it felt terrifying because turning down a lucrative project that just really didn't align with where I was headed. It's the same as somebody getting a great job offer or being asked to join the executive ranks when they really don't want that visibility, or it's not what their career focus and their legacy is really designed to do.

Being able to say thank you, no, is really tough. And that's why making an agreement with yourself is really important, that you're worth it, that this brand that you've curated and developed and focused on is the right thing to focus on. Because temptation is everywhere, and I have been suckered into those bright and shiny objects. And as I said in the book, I've chosen the wrong client a couple times. But it's just about getting back on course. And sometimes those failures are what we learn the most from. But the example you're drawing from, yeah, that was a pretty pivotal moment. And really solidified that if I do this right, there could be something here.

Anita Brick: And it goes back to, like you said before, it's building this consistency with actions and so on. And an alum asked the question: “You mentioned that you want to take as many opportunities and actions that align with your values to create credibility. Certainly, it's not possible to say yes to everything. As you were developing credibility in your new area, how did you decide what to say yes to and what to say no to that made you not spread yourself too thin, yet you successfully leveraged opportunities?”

Lida Citroën: Having that GPS, and I'm not trying to make light of it, because this gets really hard and there are a lot of things I want to say yes to. But when I started my business, it brought up a lot for me because I was putting my name on the door. I wasn't hiding or positioning myself behind a company. My vision was to do something with my life that had this, this deep sense of purpose, and my name was going to be attached to that. So I had to be super clear about what I was going to say yes to.

And interestingly, I knew there would be a place–I didn't know what it would look like–where I would give back. Like there would be some element of philanthropy, because I had always done that in corporate. I'd always been on boards and been part of nonprofits and charities as part of my work, but I didn't know what that was going to look like. But I created a space for it. And that's why when I learned about the challenge of active duty service members coming into the civilian world and not knowing these concepts of personal brand, I decided to help because I had created space for that.

So it was easy to say yes for that. Now the challenge became that one yes turned into a million yeses. And that's still a challenge I struggle with today, because a lot of my work is towards communities I'm passionate about, and there isn't necessarily financial reward. So I think when you build a brand or you build a company, it's always having those rules and those filters to say this one aligns, this one doesn't. This would be a really nice one to say yes to, but I don't have bandwidth. I have to be very clear as a business owner, what I have capacity for. I want to give 100% to everything I say yes to. Well, there's only so many things you can say yes to. It's an ongoing challenge, but it was definitely something I had to be very conscious of at the beginning.

Anita Brick: So have those questions or those rules or those guidelines–that agreement with yourself so that, you know, if you're stepping out of that, you're doing it consciously.

Lida Citroën: You're doing it by choice. And the agreement with yourself also gives you a way of explaining that feeling in your stomach or your head or your heart that says, I don't think this is good for you, and we all get them. There's a potential client, there's a job offer, there's an opportunity, and we can't put our finger on why yo us, it doesn't sound good, but everyone around us is cheering. That's what that agreement, that brand agreement gives you. And I've leaned on mine many, many times.

You know, the other part that was interesting about this question is she talks about developing credibility. When I take people through the personal branding process, the first thing we do is establish what do you want your brand to be credible for? Because it's not just about visibility. It's not just about being on podiums and platforms. It's about people trusting and giving you credit and seeing you as credible for the attributes and assets that you want to be known for.

And the first step in credibility is understanding your values. Boy, you talk about a big conversation. Most people are not very clear on what their values are. They know what their parents values are, or their community, or their social media influencers, or their spouse’s values are, and they sort of adopt those because that feels very comfortable and it makes sense. But when I ask them to strip all that away and focus on their values, I watch people squirm. It is very hard to do that. But that is the only way to build credibility because you're going to be asked to show action to that. So the things I was saying, yes to were aligned with my values, and I made that connection so that there wasn't any question about why I would say yes to this and not to that.

Anita Brick: Totally makes sense. So to shift gears just a little bit, two questions related to struggle. The first one: “I understand that self-talk is the story you tell yourself. That said, the story I tell myself is not super positive and so I tend not to be motivated to take action. What would you suggest that someone like myself might do to shift the story and increase my motivation to create a consistent brand?”

Lida Citroën: Powerful question, because what we tell ourselves is how narrative starts. The book is called Control the Narrative. Obviously, I focus a lot on storytelling and narrative, but we always think storytelling is what we do. It really starts with us. And self-talk, particularly negative self-talk, it is hard to be excited and enthusiastic and passionate. But it starts with you, because what you tell yourself actually leaks out into what you tell other people, or how you communicate your value to other people. And the challenge there is that what you communicate to other people becomes what they use to communicate about you to other people. If you're telling yourself, I'm confident, I'm capable, I am excited, and you communicate, you know your story through that lens to someone else. When they go to talk about you and you're not in the room, they're going to use that energy and enthusiasm as they describe you. Conversely, the challenge is if you're telling yourself, I can't do this, this is too hard. I'm not worth it. I can't take action. And then you try to communicate your value to someone else. They can see that. None of us are good enough actors, that we can hide that. So it comes through.

Anita Brick: It makes perfect sense. And that's why taking actions like we were talking about that help you understand your values and taking small steps so that you can experiment a little bit. Maybe this is true. Maybe I do have these talents. Maybe I am capable here, but I think sometimes people want to go from 0 to 100 all at once. They get to 98 and it's like that was a failure.

Lida Citroën: I mean, if you're swinging for the fences, that might be a little ambitious. So to your point, take inventory, do some feedback, ask the right questions, and see what the feedback show is.

One of the most revealing questions is what are three words you would use to describe me? And if people come back with words that you never expected or you're delighted by, which often happens, that could give you some renewed confidence. And then you decide that, yeah, I like those words. That actually sums up what I'm passionate about that can become part of your new narrative. And now you have something to sort of start the wheels going with and test it out and see what works.

Anita Brick: I would agree. All right. So here's a question. And we haven't talked at all about reputation repair. One of the MBA students and I suspect that he's experiencing this: “What about the narcissists that are on the rise. And they target someone else's reputation with a smear campaign? Where do you even begin to go with that?”

Lida Citroën: There's a few things at play here. First, what I have found is most of the clients who have found themselves victims of online targeting or as this person says, smear campaigns, haven't built a lot of content and context online or in person to refute that brand. Right? So if somebody were to try and do a smear campaign on me that said she really doesn't care about the military, yeah, it's not going to go very far because there's a lot of validation online and with people that know me that I really do care about those who've served our country. So it's not going to fly. So if you don't have content and context online or in person with the people that matter, that would be the first thing to focus on.

The second thing is oftentimes our first reaction is to take down all of our social media and that could be a good solution. But it can also work against my first point, which is if that's where all your context is, that's where all this value that you've established and this credibility and these brand assets, if that's where they exist and you take it all down. Now, all we hear or believe is one side of the story, which is the other person's side of the story. There are always going to be hurt  people who try to hurt people. Sometimes people poke just to see if they can get a reaction. That's unfortunate. I think we live in a world where that's happening all the time, and it's happening to people who've done nothing wrong. Reputation repair is not just when you've messed up. It can be for people who just didn't think about branding and all of a sudden find themselves in the hot seat.

But if you're dealing with this situation, I would again say make sure there's a lot of context. Make sure that you don't just start pulling everything down. You can stop comments. You can turn off comments on all these different social platforms. You can have candid conversations with people who might be getting these toxic messages from this person who's trying to smear you. Make sure you have a strategy and a game plan. You can be on the offense; it doesn't mean everything has to be defensive. The clients I work with who are in this exact situation, and I've got a client in London right now who's literally dealing with this, all she wants to do is play whack a mole. I'm going to turn that one down. I'm going to, you know, shut that one down. I'm going–it's consuming her. It's taking all of her effort to keep these narcissists, these people who are trying to get her riled up. And I said, just stop. You know, just stop because we, first of all, don't even know they're human beings. We know that there are algorithms that can do this, but are they really where you should be spending your time? If it's online, we have no idea who the person at the other end of the keyboard is. If it's in person, you probably do want to have some candid conversations with people who matter. With people who don't, for your strategy, show them that you're not the person that this other person is trying to paint you out to be. Show them rather than tell them.

Anita Brick: One of my questions is, does this approach change if it's all happening within your current employer?

Lida Citroën: You know, within the current employer, we have some different levers, and your ability to establish and reestablish your credibility in your workplace is critical, because that's where you get your job done and where you people are supposed to trust you. If it's the kind of thing that warrants involvement with human resources, that's always a good step, at least to let them know that this is happening. If it's an individual, if it's a group of people that are targeting you, certainly let them know, because there could be some protection and there could be processes that are in place. You also don't want to have to go to them after the fact.

I'm a big fan of doing that, but then it's really about how you respond and react. So again, if you're on the defensive, if you're looking scared every time you contribute in a meeting, if you're avoiding eye contact with them. I mean it brings us right back to high school, right? We don't want to sit at the table with the mean kids. A lot of it has to do with how you handle yourself. People who target will only target if they get a target, right? And if you don't make yourself that target, if you show confidence and you show focus and you carry yourself with dignity and to use your word, courage, oftentimes it's not satisfying for them and they move on. If you've done something, on the other hand that warrants this, then you have to repair that. If it was comments you made or the way that you handled yourself that is causing this, then that has to be addressed differently.

Anita Brick: Do you have time for one more question?

Lida Citroën: Absolutely.

Anita Brick: Okay. Wonderful. So there's a lot to take in. Like there's a lot to do, there's a lot to think about. Some people can feel overwhelmed by the whole process, so they just do nothing. What advice would you give? What are three things that you would be doing that are fairly accessible to most people? You know, especially our audience is mostly MBAs or business professionals. What are three things that you would advise someone to do to help them have a solid brand that creates credibility and positive advancement?

Lida Citroën: It does feel like a lot. And I always say to people, you know, anytime you're starting a new workout routine or you want to lose 20 pounds, the first few steps are very hard, but it becomes so second nature. So the first thing I would do is think about the formula for credibility, which is values plus action. Think about what you stand for. What are the values that are yours as an individual that you feel so strongly about, that if they were separated from you, you wouldn't be you. Some people think about it as like your moral operating system. Every decision you make is either yes, no, right, wrong, good, bad because of your values. And really get clear what are the, you know, 3 or 4 words that anchor you in who you are.

So values would be the first step. The second thing I would think about is the end. What is the ideal end state or desired brand. And some people call that legacy. If you can think about what is it at the end of your life that you want people to remember about you? And not the tactical stuff–so companies you built how many books you published, but the feelings they had because brands are feeling brands are emotional connections. What do you want people to have felt at the end in an ideal state about you? The reason that's important is because that's what gives you the strategy. So your strategy becomes, how do I make that happen?

But the other piece is your target audience. Who are the people, the audiences, the groups, the individuals that you want to build connection with? If you're employed in a company, who are the people that hold the opportunities that you want, maybe it's people who could promote you, people who could support you, your target audience, or the people who matter. Not everybody. It's not everybody on social media that has to find you interesting and relevant and compelling and attractive. But when you have your values and you have a sense of where you're headed and you're clear on who it is you're targeting, who you want to build, those relationships with, now you can start moving forward. And all of that has to happen before you think about things like social media or your presence, your executive presence, your in-person networking, and how you talk about yourself. Because you will put all of that through the lens of this brand. And it does sound like a lot, but it's actually I always say it's a very simple process. It's just not easy because you have to be an expert on you. And most people don't spend the time thinking about these things. They focus on other people and that's where you get the power back. It is worth going through the hard work to get there.

Anita Brick:  And the way you describe this is incredibly powerful because most people, as you said, in a different way, bolt on to their lives other people's values and what is valuable and what you own, who you are, which is not an easy thing to do you become unique. And you actually become a unique brand, as opposed to being an amalgamation of a lot of different things tthat is really nothing. It's so good.

I am so glad you wrote the book–strategic, but it's also practical and actionable. What's the big picture and how do we go into action? So thank you for looking at both sides and doing this work. This is not easy work. You are your values and your actions match them up, which makes you a very powerful brand yourself. And thank you for making time for us.

Lida Citroën: Oh, it has been such a thrill and you've got some awesome students and alums because these were excellent questions. Really thoughtful questions. And hopefully the advice gives them some things to get started with. And it's been such a pleasure speaking with you as well.

Anita Brick: Thank you very much. It's been fun and I look forward to connecting again. Thank you again for making the time.

Lida Citroën: Thank you Anita. My pleasure.

Anita Brick: And thank you all for listening. This is Anita Brick with CareerCast at Chicago Booth. Keep advancing.