Reinventing Your Career

Anita Brick: Hi. This is Anita Brick. And welcome to CareerCast at Chicago Booth to help you advance in your career. Today we're delighted to be speaking to Pamela Mitchell. And Pamela is an executive in the entertainment area turned coach. She's founder and CEO of the Reinvention Institute and the author of a wonderful book called The Ten Laws of Career Reinvention.

Early in her career, Pamela spent nearly 15 years in senior-level positions, leading international business development and relationship management for high-profile media and entertainment companies. Pamela—and I didn't even mention you were featured in the February 7 Fortune magazine. Wonderful article. I mean, you are the Queen of Reinvention.

Pamela Mitchell: And I was like, oh my gosh, yes. And when I saw that, I was like, well, well, there we are. But that was my mission when I started out eight years ago: to help people reinvent themselves. It's nice to be crowned officially the Queen of Reinvention.

Anita Brick: Absolutely. And you know, I’d love to jump in and start with a question that came from an Exec MBA student, and this person said, well, what's the difference between career change, which many people do, and career reinvention?

Pamela Mitchell: I thought that was just a great question. It's kind of like, which comes first, the chicken or the egg? To define simply career reinvention, it's basically using the skills, talents, and experience that you have to move between job functions, departments, industries, or even to strike out on your own. So if I had to say the difference between career reinvention and career change, it's that career change does not always mean career reinvention, because sometimes career change can mean just moving up the ladder in your current career, just getting to the next level, getting the next level jobs on and on.

Whereas career reinvention really involves reapplying your skills in new ways and sort of unexpected ways. Sometimes it's just, as I said, a minor tweak, moving within your current company just to a different department or a different role. Sometimes it's a major complete shift, but career reinvention always involves some kind of change. But career change does not always mean a reinvention.

Anita Brick: What's interesting, I think that the way we define career change at Booth with MBA students and alums is very much the way you define career reinvention. So it's good. So I think we probably all know what that means. But where do you start? So if you were going to say, well, here are some key things to take into consideration. If you're developing a career reinvention strategy and even a tactical plan, what would you do?

Pamela Mitchell: Well, the first thing that I'd start to do is really think about what you want out of your life. In my book, The Ten Laws of Career Reinvention, one says that it starts with a vision for your life, which seems to be kind of counterintuitive when you're talking about career switching. Most people come in thinking I need to figure out exactly what I want to do.

But where we start is, where do you want to live? And how? And I don't mean that literally, but what is your vision for the next five to seven years? And that's something that happens on a broader basis than just the job you work. And what we found with most of our clientele that comes in is that a lot of their unhappiness is the conflict between the career that they have and the lifestyle that they want.

So redefining “lifestyle” and then looking at what career can deliver that lifestyle that you seek, and then what skills and talents can you bring to bear to actually make that career happen?

Anita Brick: Another—actually, an alum this time, said, I know it's important to know what you're good at and which of those paths, you know, that you just mentioned, that they will most likely succeed. How do you figure out what you're good at? I mean, I know that we can do the inventories of skills, but you have a lot of creative ways. If someone isn't really clear for whatever reason, either they had a misstep in the last job and they're just maybe lacking confidence a little bit, how do you find out what you're really good at?

Pamela Mitchell: I think that some of the more natural ways are what are the things that people come to you for? And that's one that people don't really think about, because to them, it seems completely obvious. And how does everybody not know whatever it is that others are coming to them for? But whatever that is, whether it be within your current role or your friends and family, take a look at that, because that's a big signal that hey, you have natural talent here.

And that's the stuff that you're kind of swimming in the water thinking, gosh, everybody knows how to do this. Well, in fact, not. So that's a great way to find out not only what are you good at but what is there demand for? Because those two things are going to be the crux of how you use your reinvention. You may be good at something, but if there's really no demand for it, it's going to be hard to make a transition. So you want both.

Anita Brick: Any specific tactics that you would suggest to develop one or both of those sides?

Pamela Mitchell: Well, specific tactics in terms of sort of identifying what you might be good at, first, as I said, kind of pay attention or if you want, actually poll your friends and families. I’ve actually given that request, not assignment, but request to some of our coaching clients. Yes. They're not in school. When you get out, you're free. So they are requests; they are not homework. But I say poll your friends and family. Ask them what they think you're good at. Not what should you do, which is an opinion, but what do they think you're good at? Many times others are able to see us in ways that we're not able to see ourselves.

Another thing that I always recommend that people do is to create a list of what they really enjoyed about their job. Now, sometimes people come to reinvention sort of hating what they do, and they think that there's nothing that's enjoyable about what they do. In fact, when they sit down and really start to analyze it, they'll see that there's certain things that they really do enjoy, but it's just sort of overshadowed by the things that are not so pleasant to them.

So looking at that, analyzing what they're enjoying about that, and then also looking at things that put them into flow. What are the things that you're doing where time seems to stand still, and maybe you're at it for 15 minutes, but then you look up and you think, oh my gosh, two hours has passed. Whatever that is, look at those things as well. And some of those tactics, those will uncover things that you're really good at, what your natural talents are.

Anita Brick: What about on the market side? Is it feasible kind of thing?

Pamela Mitchell: Well, is it feasible? Yes, that's the question. Is there demand? But first I want to say before you even go to the market side, just pull out the stuff that you're good at and then start to see, are people coming to you for it? Do you see people in the world doing it already? And that's something that you want to look at.

But if you don't, that doesn't mean that it shouldn't be done. Sometimes there are things that you kind of look at the world and you think, why isn't anybody doing this? And that's your opportunity. In fact, that's what happened to me around reinvention, because back in 2003 when I was contemplating this—or 2002, actually, I was looking around thinking, why is nobody having this conversation about career reinvention?

This is a skill that the work world is going to need, and nobody's talking about this. And finally I woke up and said, well, I guess that's for me to have that conversation.

Anita Brick: And we’re glad you did.

Pamela Mitchell: Yeah. So that's something that you want to look at. Just because it's not in the world doesn't mean that there won't be demand for it. But then you've got the job to actually create that demand.

Anita Brick: One of our weekend students asked a question that is sort of a follow-on to that. And he said, I have about seven years of work experience in technology and am in the middle of getting my MBA on a part-time basis. My goal is strategy consulting at a top firm, but I'm a bit weak on the interpersonal and communication side. How do I work with my technical strengths and shore up my weaknesses so I can reinvent my career?

Pamela Mitchell: I love that question because the person who's asking is doing exactly the right thing, which is looking at a long-term strategy. They're saying to themselves, here's something that I want to achieve down the road. So what do I do now? Which is really the way that you want to look at your reinvention. It's not something that happens quickly, in three to six months. You want to take a years viewpoint, sometimes longer, depending upon, in this particular case, when people are going back to get their MBA. Yeah, it can take two or three years to lay out your plan at that point.

What the questioner wants to do is to start to think about what kinds of skills do people in the roles that I'm targeting have? If it's presentation skills, then they want to take a class right off the bat to try and work on those presentation skills. If it’s the ability to entertain clients, then they want to work on their social skills. The key is to look at what, when they say communication skills, specifically what communication skills are needed. And if you're wondering, then go to what I call a native, which is somebody who's in the field that you're looking to target and actually has a lot of success and loves it, and ask them what skills they believe you need and what path do they think you should take to develop those skills? A lot of times you'll get a lot of very interesting and valuable advice that you may not think of on your own.

Anita Brick: It's interesting because I think sometimes when you don't do that, you get caught off guard. And there was an alum who asked the question—he or she said, how do you convince a potential employer that you can excel in a job when you don't have the experience for that job on your resume? Specifically, it seems that 99.9 percent of job opportunities insist a candidate must already have demonstrated success in that type of role.

It seems like the employers hold all the cards when it comes to career change and not the job seeker. How do you stack the deck in your favor or shift it a little bit at least?

Pamela Mitchell: Yeah, you could definitely change the odds to your favor. In this particular case, I will use the term homework. OK? Homework is good. Homework is good. In this case, you want to be doing your homework. Because here's the thing that you have to understand about reinvention is that it's like moving to a foreign country in that field that you're looking to move into. There are different languages. There are different requirements to succeed in the culture; different paths to success.

And so it's incumbent upon you as the job seeker to do your homework. But I don't mean just by reading the job listing and saying, oh, I have that skill, and then sending off your resume. I mean going and talking to those people who are the natives in the industry and asking them what is required to be successful, what kind of track record do I need, and what skills and talents are necessary to achieve those successes?

So you do your homework in advance to see what is necessary in that industry, and then you look at your skills, your talents, your successes that demonstrate that you have the same skills and talents that are necessary in that particular industry. Then you translate those successes into the language of that particular industry that you're targeting.

So as you can see, there are a lot of steps that are involved in it. It's a lot of work. It's much more effort than just sending out a resume blind to a job listing. There are payoffs for that work. That's what tilts the odds into your favor, as opposed to having the employer hold all the cards.

Anita Brick: Well, and it may be that there's some kind of bridging experience. It could be that there is an internship kind of thing. It may not be an internship per se, but a project. I know some people have gone in and worked in a nonprofit and built some skills not exactly the same as the industry, but close enough that it helped them bridge. So I guess there are lots of different ways to do that.

Pamela Mitchell: That's actually a great point. I'm a big fan, and one of the things that I always recommend is somehow getting project or volunteer work. Nonprofits are a great way. Basically, what you have to prove to the employer is your legitimacy. Why should they give you a shot? You want to know that going in, and not just because you have a particular thing on your resume or whatever, but really sort of practical tactical experience that shows them, here's why you should be giving me a shot.

So volunteering for nonprofits, volunteering for entrepreneurial companies, working on a three-month project there, or doing consulting on the side, all of those things can build your toolbox basically. Your practical toolbox that you can then go show to those target employers.

Anita Brick: So I think it's a really good point for a whole lot of levels, because number one, you're actually bridging some skills. And number two, it shows a level of commitment beyond what someone who's just sending off the resume is going to do.

Pamela Mitchell: So one of the things that I get quite a bit; that I get asked at talks when I'm out speaking on this topic, somebody will inevitably stand up and say, you know, I've been sending out hundreds of resumes, sometimes thousands of resumes, and I've got no response. So what I say to them is, look, you know, sending out a resume in response to a job posting is probably the lowest-return way that you can actually find something. You really want to go in and show your initiative.

And that means targeting, not just kind of sending out stuff willy-nilly. That piece—targeting a particular thing that you're interested in, then looking to build your legitimacy; building your case, so to speak—is how you can make an effective reinvention.

Anita Brick: Makes sense. There were a couple questions around people’s reentry. And one of them said, I have been out of the workforce for the last five years. Where do I start my career reinvention? I was in marketing and want to return to it. The pushback I'm getting is that so many things have changed in marketing in the last five years that I'm no longer qualified. So if someone has been out for a while and they want to go back to what they did before, where they've been unemployed for a while, how do they mitigate some of that risk to employers?

Pamela Mitchell: Two things that they can do. One is just the strategy that we were talking about. What specifically, when they get that pushback, what skills are those employers looking for that they are not adequately demonstrating that they possess? If they truly don't possess them, then it's incumbent upon them to go out and get those skills. That's it.

Sometimes that's the bar to entry and you've got to go fulfill that bar. But it's just a matter of refreshing those skills. You can work on projects on the side or you can even offer to do a small project for that particular employer to demonstrate that, hey, you know, I can bring value to the table. Now, how about you give me a trial run? If it doesn't work, no hard feelings. But the first piece is to make sure that you've answered those objections in some way, shape or form if they have some kind of valid thing to say. You've been out for five years now. The world has moved on, and now they're doing all this social media advertising, blah, blah, blah.

Then don't expect them to give you an opportunity if you don't have a Twitter account, and your LinkedIn profile only has three connections. You’ve got to demonstrate that you are in the mix. Here's the thing about when you reinvent your career, you're not going to be learning on their dime. Yeah, so you've got to learn on your own dime so that you can present that case to them.

Anita Brick: That makes sense. That one seems straightforward, the other one not so straightforward. This is what another alumni said. What do you think is the best shot for someone? I graduated in ’02, worked in investment banking since then, took the last two and a half years off to become a mother. And now I want to go back, but cannot fit into the banking hours anymore.

I like the work, but I can't do the hours. So how do you approach when the lifestyle no longer fits the job, but the skills and experience and the knowledge is good, but they want to transfer it to something else?

Pamela Mitchell: That's a great thing because again, as I said, that's one of those typical reinventions—to backtrack for a moment, it's a myth that you'll find the one thing that you love, and then it's settled for the rest of your life. Reinvention is a skill that takes you through the ages and stages of your life. And so this particular questioner really illustrates that, because what worked for her at one particular point in her life, which was the investment banking type of lifestyle, no longer works now that she has a child.

The key then is to know the skills and talents that you enjoy and what your priorities are, lifestyle wise, and then look for new ways to apply those skills and talents. So yeah, trying to go back into an investment banking atmosphere is not going to work. That will create a conflict. So instead, what she wants to look at is, what was I doing?

What did I enjoy about that? How do I want to contribute, and what other industries will value those skills and talents and contributions? And then start to look at a short list of those industries that can use those skills and talents, start to look to see which ones might be more lifestyle friendly apart from the one that she's leaving.

Anita Brick: That’s a good point. And with something like that, banking or marketing or finance, where there's a lot of transferable skills from one industry to another, she's actually in a pretty enviable position because maybe she does internal M&A or corp dev or business development in the M&A kind of sense of the word. But you're right. Look at the lifestyle in that industry, but probably also in the specific firm.

Pamela Mitchell: Yes, even more than just the firm. Maybe then looking at a particular department or role within it. So maybe you take yourself off partner track and you put yourself in a role where now you're responsible for in-house training or something along those lines, and that's just the trade-off that you make. So it's not necessarily that you leave the industry, but maybe that particular job no longer fits.

But there's another job within the same industry that allows you to stay current in using the skills, but doesn't have the lifestyle demands that actually being on the front lines would have.

Anita Brick: That's a really, really good point, because a lot of the bulge bracket firms have been creating programs for women who want to reenter the workforce to come in in a different way. You know, all the big ones have those kinds of programs. That's a really, really good point that you made.

Pamela Mitchell: Look at project-based work, which is another great way to manage your hours and not have to deal with all of the demands of being in the front line in the mix, so to speak. So when you're trying to go back, you know, I would say go back to your old firm where they know you and love you, if it's about that, and say, are there any projects that I could work on and see?

Because a lot of times they are willing to be accommodating, especially if you brought a lot to the table and you're perceived as being one of their talented stars.

Anita Brick: That's a very good point. And the job postings at the Booth site actually are broken down into four different categories. One is full-time summer internships, but then there's two other ones. One is part time and the other is project work. And I would be looking at those fairly often because things will pop up there all the time.

You talked about enjoyment, that it's really important to really look at the things you enjoy, and to be able to then translate and leverage them somewhere else. There was an interesting question from an alum, I think it was. He said, I'm working with an executive coach now on career transition, and I've been invigorated by the process. My question is, I have flights of fancy about becoming very happy with a new career after years of making good money but not enjoying my work.

How realistic is my goal of finding refreshing work that I can look forward to nearly every morning upon awakening?

Pamela Mitchell: You know, I read that question and it just hit my heart just because the reason I started this company is to let people know that yes, it is possible. So how realistic? It's absolutely realistic. There's no question that you can find work that you are excited to wake up to every single day. It takes a lot of effort.

I'm not going to say that the reinvention process is easy, because it isn't, and it takes time. But is it possible? Absolutely. Is it doable? Without question. And is it within your reach? Without doubt. The answer to that question is yes, you can, but you have to go through the process to make sure that when you get to the end of it, that it is something that you love.

Anita Brick: So the front-end work where there's no instant gratification is really important, because without it, you're going to end up in a reinvented career, a new career. And you may also not like it.

Pamela Mitchell: There are big concerns around career reinvention. I'm going to do all this work, and then I'm not going to like it when I get there. What happens? And that's happened to people, but it's usually because they haven't done the front-end work. They haven't really thought about that vision that they have for their life. What do they enjoy? Many people start a reinvention because they go at it from just what are my skills and talents and what does the marketplace look like it's doing? And that particular recipe is one that the odds are very, very low that you're going to be satisfied. It's one that doesn't at all take into account what you want and all of that. So it's really more of a matching process.

Anita Brick: I think you're right on point, because if you don't do that, there will be a mismatch. And I think sometimes people try to chase whatever the next big thing is. Yes, because it's the next big thing. You're right on point. If you do that front-end work, like you said, you have a much greater chance of liking what you do every day or nearly every day, and you'll be able to see the opportunities as they come to you. And evaluate them and say, well, that looks kind of interesting, but would I want to do it every day? But if you haven't done that front work, it's hard to know. And you may choose the wrong thing.

Pamela Mitchell: That's right. Put a lot of time, effort, and money and get there and find out, oh gosh, it isn't. But to your point, with things changing so quickly industry wise, there are no more safe industries, right? That idea of let me find something that's secure and that I can hang out in, that's just gone. So you really want to look at, what do you enjoy?

Because the other thing to understand is that right now, with unemployment at the percentage rate that it is, there's a lot of competition for jobs. And I don't say that to scare people. But employers have the choice to pick somebody that feels passionate about what they're doing. There's no reason for an employer to choose somebody that's lukewarm.

So that's why you … you want to love it.

Anita Brick: If you do, you will go into that flow state that you talked about, and you're going to put more in.

Pamela Mitchell: Right. And that's more appealing. It’s that energy. Law 10 in my book is that the world responds to an aura of success. But it's more than just success. It's that energy. This lights me up on a day-by-day basis. The employer can read that. And if we're faced with three people that are all applying for that job, it's the person who's going to be really lit up by it that they're going to want to have.

Anita Brick: Now, not to take a turn toward maybe less positive energy, but there are a couple of questions about setbacks, like how do you get past obstacles? One was from an alum, one was from a student, but the one from an alum said, it looks like my career path no longer fits after I completed the MBA.

I have 25 years in technology, 15 of which was in IT consulting, the last five in IT leadership. Since graduating with my MBA, it's been very difficult to find full-time work. I get temp IT consulting gigs, but I'm considered overqualified for my past roles. On the business side, I'm considered too old for the associate roles and don't have current consulting or business experience for the experienced roles.

What do you suggest I do to get into a role where I can use my IT/business blended skills? That's a tricky one.

Pamela Mitchell: Yeah, it is a tricky question, and this is where you get into the reality around reinvention. Reinvention is a skill that is about creating job security and the ability to move. And this is where you actually have to look at what's truly happening in the marketplace and kind of shape your targeting towards that. I'm not a big fan of, you know, “do what you love and the money follows” kind of thing.

It's really very much of a practical approach. And so sure, this particular alum, what I'd say is that he—I'm assuming it's a he—has to fish in a different pond.

Anita Brick: What does that mean?

Pamela Mitchell: I'm guessing from this question that he's looking at the big consulting firms.

Anita Brick: OK.

Pamela Mitchell: The big consulting firms have very specific things that they're looking for, and it's kind of like trying to become a doctor but not having your MD. You know, they just don't want to talk to you if you don't fit the profile. And that's very much of a reality. So there are people who come to me and say, you know, I want to do something. But everybody in that industry is 30, and I think I'm maybe too old. And I'm not one that says, oh no, no, you're not too old.

Sometimes you might actually be too old, and there's no reason to bang your head against that particular wall. Change where you're trying to target. So in this particular case, for this questioner, I'd recommend that he look at more entrepreneurial firms, smaller firms—get out of that big five top prestige kind of mode to see who can really use his skills.

What is an exciting, growing company—not the name brand players, but one that really is doing innovative things in his area and say, because they're a step or two down, they're not getting the top grabs that all of the schools are recruiting for, but they want somebody who's good and they want somebody that's got experience because they don't have time to have the training program.

And if that person comes in with 25 years of experience and this MBA with the business experience and can hit the ground running, that's what they want. So I'm always about fishing in the pond that truly values what you have to offer. And if you find that a pond doesn't value what you have to offer, then go fish someplace else.

Anita Brick: Good point, good point. The other one, someone had reached a sticking point. This is an evening student who said, I've been working on a career change—or, as you would call it, career reinvention—into more senior management roles. I have initial success when I reach out to others to network, but that's where the convo stops. How do I stop being viewed as a tourist in my search?

And I think “tourists” is a word from your book—you talk about tourists and about natives, and natives are people who really are knowledgeable. So it sounds like he may be using the wrong language perhaps. What else would you recommend?

Pamela Mitchell: The flag for me is his initial success when I reach out to others to network, but then the convo stops. The thing about networking is that networking has been co-opted into a tool, basically, that people just use to kind of get something. And people who are natives smell that a mile off. They're not interested in being used. So I think that this particular questioner needs to really stop thinking about networking and start thinking about building relationships—long-term relationships.

And in that case, if it's about building a relationship, then you're not looking to get anything. You're not looking at— Matter of fact, you're looking to see what you can offer and how you can build commonality. And you're looking at it for the long haul. Now, I know that when people are job hunting and things, they think, you know, I don't have time for that, blah, blah, blah.

But the truth of the matter is that if this is an industry that you're targeting, you're going to need these relationships long term. So you want to invest in them upfront. So I'd say that this questioner needs to take the networking definition out of it and start thinking, how do I make friends with these people and what can I do for them, you know, and how do I add value for them and become friends? And then naturally, he or she will no longer be a tourist because they will be a part of the mix.

Anita Brick: Good point. In addition to relationship building—which I think you and I both agree, it's foundational for everything—there was another question from an Exec MBA student: how can I enhance my visibility to facilitate my career reinvention? Of course, build relationships. Are there any other things that you would advise to enhance visibility and reputation?

Pamela Mitchell: Absolutely. You want to know who the players are in the industry that you're targeting and what's on their radar screen. What are they reading? What conferences are they going to, what industry organizations do they belong to? And then you want to start showing up and making yourself known in those spaces. So if there's a particular industry organization that everybody belongs to, not only join that industry organization, volunteer for a role that puts you front and center.

So become the secretary; volunteer to put on an event for that organization. Be strategic. Don't just think, oh, well, you know, I want to send out a letter or, you know, try to have coffee or have them meet me. No. You should be somebody that they are running into or that they happen to pick up a trade publication if their blogs or whatever— Be a guest blogger, write an article for a trade publication, they're going to say, oh my gosh, you know, did I run into them? That's how you increase your visibility. They start seeing your name everywhere, and then they figure, hey, this is a player that I need to know.

Anita Brick: How do you identify? Because there's so many organizations out there. Which associations are the ones where the cool people hang out?

Pamela Mitchell: Oh my gosh, this is where when you have your reinvention board and you have your native that sits on it, the person who is the player in the industry, they give you the guidance about where to go and where not to go. And that includes both online and offline, because different industries have different places that they hang out online.

So don't always assume that LinkedIn is the place for you to be hanging out. Sometimes, depending upon the industry, it could be Facebook.

Anita Brick: It's very true.

Pamela Mitchell: Or some particular blog that's not on anybody else's radar screen. So go to your industry—you know, your natives—and ask them where all the cool people hanging out, and where do I need to be?

Anita Brick: So it sounds like one of the things you need to do first is find someone who really is in that industry, who is willing to give you some time, and then you figure out some ways to share yourself with that person, too.

Pamela Mitchell: Absolutely. And that's where the network that you're building at Booth is wonderful. That's where you can automatically, if you don't already know somebody, you can reach out to somebody. And because of that connection, they'll talk to you. When I was looking to move from Wall Street into the entertainment field, I didn't know anybody. You know, a small-town girl from Wisconsin.

And here I was in New York City. I didn't know a soul in the entertainment business, but from my graduate school, I picked up the phone. I got the name of an alum who worked at the Motion Picture Association, and I called, just cold-called him and said, hey, you know, I'm looking to make this move, and can I ask you a couple questions?

And to this day, we are still friends because I didn't make it just about networking. In that moment, I asked some really thoughtful questions. I continued to foster the relationship. And you know, here we are, you know, nearly 20 years later, still friends. That's what you want to do. Use that alumni network that's at your disposal.

Anita Brick: But I think that your point about it not being a transaction, but being the beginning of a relationship—a working relationship, a friendship—is so key because if you had made it a transaction, I bet you wouldn't have gotten very far with him. And obviously you wouldn't have him as a friend today.

Pamela Mitchell: That's right. Because people called him all the time, as you might imagine. So when I called it was about being friends, it was about helping, and I asked really key questions. I mean, he said, and this is long before I ever became a reinvention coach, I asked questions that he said nobody ever asked when they were networking. And that's what you want because that's how you stand out.

And then another tip that I can give your listeners, Anita, is in the spirit of relationship. When you're doing that, when you're done with the conversation, do more than just send an email saying, thank you. I mean, you want to do that, but go the extra mile. One tip that somebody did actually for me, and I love this, and I've used it to great effect. If somebody sent me a Starbucks card, $5, the note said, thank you so much for taking the time. Sorry we couldn't do it in person, but have your next cup of coffee on me right now.

Anita Brick: That's good, that's good.

Pamela Mitchell: Yeah, yeah. So, you know, thinking about it from a relationship standpoint, you'd have coffee with the person. So just play on things like that, continue to keep the relationship going. And you know you'll always be able to call on that native when you need help.

Anita Brick: Do you have time for two more questions?

Pamela Mitchell: Of course.

Anita Brick: So one question that came in from an alum. He said, my family, friends, and colleagues tell me that I'm too old for career reinvention. I have 30 years of work experience, 20 years in management. I really want to work in innovation but have no real direct experience. Is there a point that it's too late for a career reinvention?

Pamela Mitchell: I saw this question, and the answer to that question is no. There is no point that it's too late for career reinvention. But what I think is more important about this particular question is that family and colleagues are the ones who are telling this particular person that it's too late for him, and that's something that is often a challenge in our reinvention, is that we don't get a lot of support for it in our world. When we want to break out of the box, people have their own viewpoints.

They put us in a particular category, and when we say we're going to step out of it, it basically makes them nervous. They just don't believe in it. So what I would say to this particular questioner is that you want to surround yourself with people who are also trying to do things that are different from the norm. And back to the question where you want to fish in the pond that values what you have to offer.

You know, this particular questioner not only needs to surround himself with people who believe in the philosophy of reinvention, and that it's never too late to do that, but also start to look at ponds that would value what he has to offer. And, you know, give him a shot. And this is something where, again, he may want to look at new organizations that might have some use for innovation, but might not have the funds to completely go out and hire somebody where he can start to build his skills.

This is kind of what we do with people that come into our groups and classes and work with us on a coaching basis. We kind of mix and match, you know, what is that strategy for that particular person to reach the reinvention that they're looking to reach? But is it too late for him? Absolutely not.

Anita Brick: And I think your point is very well taken that it scares people who know us if we do something new because it shakes everything up. And I mean, it's good to have that and, you know, remind us of what the risks are. But as you said, really have people that are going to support you.

Pamela Mitchell: That's something that when I was having my own reinvention that I didn't have. It's very, very tough to go through a reinvention because as I said earlier during our conversation, this is not a quick process, right? So could be working on your reinvention. You will be working on it for at least a year, sometimes longer. So that's a long time to work on something by yourself. It's very true. You get this part. And it's very easy to lose momentum. Having that reinvention team around you is a critical strategy to have a successful reinvention.

Anita Brick: I think that you clearly have hit, well, a nerve sounds negative, but you really hit something that resonates with people because many people have been in jobs that they don't like for a long time, because it's very easy to adjust your lifestyle to the income that you have, and then it's very hard to change. So thank you for doing this work. It's really so very important, and we really appreciate it.

I have one final question. I know you've given us tons of really great pieces of advice, but if you are going to look at your top three, what are the top three things that a person could do, beginning today, to either start or take the next step on their career reinvention? What would those top three things be?

Pamela Mitchell: OK. Top three things. Number one, think about what you want for the next five to seven years. Stop asking the question what I want to do with my life. Pull it down to a five- to seven-year time window. That's the first big. Think about your lifestyle. What is it that I want to have happening and these things?

The next piece is to come up with some ideas about what you might want, you know, using some of the tactics that we talked about earlier in this conversation. And then go surround yourself with a reinvention team, friends, families, get a coach, hold yourself accountable because it's very hard to be motivated on your reinvention. And because life happens.

We're busy, you know, school going on, you're working all of these things. So don't expect the drive for reinvention to come 100 percent from within. You try to set up an accountability system around yourself to help you so that you can take advantage of that momentum and just kind of show up. And at the end of the year and, you know, you've made some progress.

Anita Brick: Very good points. Really, really appreciate it and love your book. I read the entire book a couple of weeks ago. It's very clear. I love the fact that there's a workbook at the end and there's a chapter up on the web, but the whole book is great. Even if you have the book, I certainly encourage you to visit Pamela's site—it is reinvention-institute.com—because there are additional exercises on there that go beyond what's in the book. Thank you for doing this. Thank you for writing it and giving people both the courage and the hope to create a career reinvention, regardless of how many years they've been working.

Pamela Mitchell: Thank you so much, Anita, for having me today. I really appreciate it.

Anita Brick: And thank you all for listening. This is Anita Brick with CareerCast at Chicago Booth. Keep advancing.