Reframe the Obstacles

Anita Brick: Hi, this is Anita Brick, and welcome to CareerCast at Chicago Booth. To help you advance in your career. Today I am super delighted that we are going to be able to speak to Ganel-Lyn Condie, who is a popular motivational speaker known for inspiring others with her unique honesty, authenticity, and spirit. After the heartbreaking suicide of her 40-year-old sister, Ganel-Lyn is constantly working for prevention.

She lives with an open heart and feels passionate about sharing principles that will empower others to live life with more joy. She is a regular television and radio guest and hosts the popular shows Real Talk, CFM, and The Middle. Her talks and books have now encouraged people all over the world. She loves growing older with her husband Rod and aims to keep learning and loving forever.

Which clearly, reading your book, is so evident because you put your whole heart into it and you do it with authenticity, but with also a great deal of practicality. So thank you for making time for our audience. I'm so glad that we can do this.

Ganel-Lyn Condie: Anita, I feel like just in prepping for this conversation that I found a long-lost friend, and I'm excited to connect with alumni and current students that listen to the CareerCast and have an authentic conversation about stewardship and life in general.

Anita Brick: Well, that's great and I am really thrilled. So that's a great place to start because I hear this a lot. I've heard this in my own life. People are like, we'll take full ownership for what's going on. And you would beg to differ. You would say that ownership is very limiting and frustrating and disappointing. So tell us, what is the difference?

This actually came from an MBA student. What is the difference between ownership and stewardship?

Ganel-Lyn Condie: I love getting this question because I know that the buzzword out there right now definitely is taking ownership. And I think that implies that we want people to be intentional in their lives, in their careers, in their relationships, in their health. You want some accountability, whether it's from a partner, a business colleague, a boss, right?

We all want that sense of safety that comes with people around us that are accountable and intentional and take responsibility. And so I get why the phrase, “take ownership,” is popular. But as you just referenced to me and what I really lay out in the book, it is very limiting. It's not expansive. And whether we're talking about business or mental health or physical health or relationships, I really try to lay out the idea that a more expansive approach to everything allows for those pivots that we all take, whether it's because of a pandemic or a change in the economy.

A stewardship approach is really seeing everything in your life, and I mean everything from the computer that you may be working on to your degree, to your unemployment, to your promotion or a demotion as a stewardship. And when we start to see everything from our relationships to our bank account a stewardship, it doesn't take away that intentionality that I referenced or that accountability that we sometimes place under the category of owning or ownership.

Definitely for me, as someone that's been practicing this principle for the last decade, it has actually encouraged me to be more intentional, to be more expansive and more investing in the things that matter most. So it doesn't let anyone off the hook. It allows you to have a different relationship.

And I hope the listeners are starting to compile just while we're talking already some of their lists of their stewardship are. Like, if they look around in their office or their home or wherever they're listening to this, maybe they're on a run and they see the world around them. That, too, is a stewardship. And whether it's taking care of your own yard or picking up trash on the trail when you're running, you're being a steward over that.

Ownership, though, is very limiting. I just want to pause there, because that's an important place to just let that sink in, when people hear this principle for the first time. The subtitle of the book is “Reframing Your Life.” It really does reframe how you see everything. And I'm used to having readers and listeners message me or push back or question: what do you mean everything is a stewardship? As they sit with it, and maybe it feels a little uncomfortable, there's this kind of leaning in that you can do when you realize that, that it's an easier way. It is not meant to be overwhelming, it's meant to be an easier way. But it also allows for more inspiration and expansion, especially within business.

I think we're always looking for tools or approaches that allow for expansion and inspiration and pivoting. When I'm in an ownership place, I am very stopped. I am very much triggered or trapped by the outcome or the comparison.

Anita Brick: Not to jump in, but let's get practical and let's talk.

Ganel-Lyn Condie: Okay, let's do it.

Anita Brick: Let's get some scenarios. So here's one.

The questions it came in were largely about stewardship or reframing obstacles. When you think about it, these are all about situations at first glance may not be so positive. Let's start with an MBA student. He said, I was hired into a senior role and I was really happy and excited to join. Once I joined, I realized that the role was tactical and things I did 10 years ago, and I'm not happy.

I’m beginning to think I made a mistake, and yet the options are slim. At this particular point, how do I create value in this situation and not resent my manager?

Ganel-Lyn Condie: Well, first and foremost, shout out to the person that submitted this question because I loved it and I wanted to sit down and have lunch and find out a little bit more.

And to be very specific for this scenario, I would say go back to what you value. What were your goals in taking this job? Sometimes when we go into ownership, the limiting belief is that now the definition of that role, we're locked. That's it. There's no movement, there's no possibility for change. No matter what we're experiencing. It is a learning opportunity.

Oftentimes when I find myself in an ownership situation, in this specific situation where all of a sudden I feel deflated, I feel disappointed, I feel maybe comparisons because I'm looking around at coworkers, and I'm seeing that they're doing some of the things I value doing, or I see in my wheelhouse, or my sense of strength isn't being utilized.

There's always an opportunity to have a conversation. Those crucial conversations, whether it's with management or a supervisor, about where your skill set is. Maybe that didn't get covered in the initial interviewing process as you thought it would, or maybe they're not even aware. I think sometimes the stories in our head get bigger when we have less information, and the more information we have the stories get smaller.

So I would challenge this student. What is the story you're telling yourself? Is it that you're going to be stuck forever in this role, that you will never be utilized, fulfilled in your career dreams, that your goals aren't being met? Is it that you don't feel like your supervisor or the administration you're working with are supportive of your goals? Sometimes we really tell ourselves these bigger stories because we fill in the gaps. We don't have that information. So first and foremost, I would get really clear on what your goals are and a subsequent list where your wheelhouse strengths are.

Then try to have a clarifying conversation. Have that clarifying conversation so that whoever you're working with or reporting to is really aware, and they have all the information and points of intersection clear in their minds as a manager.

And then I would just say reframing this just from a bigger-view, wide-lens perspective on this from a stewardship/ownership perspective, this is a learning experience. Potentially you want to be in a leadership role someday. I believe that some of the best leaders have had exactly these disappointing experiences and what creates in them leadership skills, and you have to have the real life experience of empathy, of understanding, of those that are working in the facility management roles.I always say I look for in leaders those people that notice the janitor that is making sure at the end of the day, the office is being cleaned. Well, is it possible that this student who asked this question is fostering within them that awareness of others that may also be having an experience similar? Maybe right now it doesn't feel so positive, but it in a future date, can you pull from this experience?

Because that's the difference between empathy and sympathy. Sympathy is like looking over the fence saying, I feel bad for you. Empathy is I join you in that experience, even if it's not the same one I'm having or have had, I can relate.

I'm going to suggest that this student is on track to be a great leader, because they are having a real life experience where they're not being utilized. And if they go forward, have a crucial conversation where they clarify facts and information with someone that maybe is in power to make a shift or a change in their job description.

If that changes their trajectory, they now have that experience as learning. I really see the life that we are all living wherever we're placed, whether we're the janitor, the front desk receptionist, or the CEO, as learning experiences. Every day is a learning opportunity. I hope that that gives some actionable steps that feel expansive. That's an example of how looking at that situation as a steward doesn't stop you.

Versus ownership would be this is where I am, this is who I am, and I'm stuck. It's an expansive approach, so that they don't feel so deflated and at a dead end.

Anita Brick: Absolutely. And I like that, really good reframe. Okay, here's one that I think is maybe even more challenging. An alum said, I was a co-founder for a tech startup, and I was the person who used my MBA and previous background and experience to create a solid foundation and a really good team of executives, strategic partners, and investors.

Yet, I was ousted from the startup when a key partner wanted to bring in his own people. I'm having a really hard time reframing this, no matter how hard I try. Help.

Ganel-Lyn Condie: I loved this question because it felt very authentic and personal and vulnerable. Brené Brown has really beaten down the door in corporate settings of the value of creativity that comes when we create safe environments for vulnerability.

And so I would say, first and foremost, this alum is willing to be vulnerable. And that's a good sign that they have options coming in their life, that this isn't the end of their story. Full disclosure, you know, since this person was vulnerable and transparent with our audience, I’ll be transparent. Our family has navigated some under-employment and unemployment, and I would just surmise that under-employment can at times be even more challenging, because some money may be coming in and everyone around you, maybe your support group, your network, your tribe know that you have a job, but you're not cutting it.

And as I've watched my husband and my own journey professionally navigate some of these seasons of unemployment and under-employment, it is discouraging. It is frustrating. I remember thinking, this is going on way longer than I am comfortable. And this person that asked the question, I think there's a twofold owie in their heart.

Anita Brick: Right, right.

Ganel-Lyn Condie: There's their creative outlet, the professional offering that they made and the good that they did and then the outcome. Now not only are they ousted, but all of that creative offering is left in this environment.

I could tell you personal stories, and I think there's some very well-known business leaders that will tell you their same, almost exact same, scenario as this. That every great leader, every great comeback story had this chapter in it. You know, and as an author, I really love seeing life as a book. And then that means certain chapters are ouchy. They're rough, they're prickly, they're disappointing, they're jarring. You're disenchanted because all of a sudden you feel maybe violated.

And so I would say, first and foremost, this isn't the end of your story. You have choices to still make, and this experience will not be wasted. I've watched my husband go through some situations as CFO where he did put 100%, and it ended in job loss, and then the pandemic hit. I could see so clearly, and this is just a really close example for me, so I'm sharing it. He knows I share his business on platforms like this, that he was very well prepared, and others within his industry, in the healthcare industry, knew exactly that his company was going to navigate the pandemic. Because of these previous losses, these previous rejections, quote unquote, these previous unemployment, he had a body of work that uniquely prepared him to pivot and lead this company through the pandemic and onto solid ground.

There is nothing lost. It may feel that way. It may feel like they took your intellectual property. They took your sweat equity. They took, you know, your efforts, your offering, your creative juices. They took maybe even the best of you. Well, that tells me a lot of you. It tells me a lot about your characteristic and your character is someone that gives a 100%. Process the feelings of regret or mourning or loss. But don't get stuck in that. Allow yourself to feel those feelings and move forward and take everything you learned about yourself and what to look for and ask for as boundaries in your next business venture.

And realize that this is the chapter of your book. This is the part of the scene in the movie that we all get excited about, right, where we are, the audience and the reader, and we know exactly that this is the problem building and the comeback is coming. That doesn't make it easier. And I would say, don't skip over it and act like you don't care. You're a human being and this is hard and this is the human experience, but this is the prime place where your creativity is getting re-engaged, where your boundaries are going to be reassessed next time you go into a business venture. And I would say it's creating a better leader in you.

Anita Brick: I like this, and I think that the bottom line of both answers in everything you said so far is about we need to find positive value.

So here's another situation with an alum who worked very, very, very, very hard to pivot from what he had done into strategy consulting. Here's what he said. My first review was less than stellar. I now have three months to correct it and I'm not sure I can make that change in enough time. On top of this, I'm feeling a bit resentful that the whole situation wasn't brought to my attention sooner. How can I positively reframe this situation?

Ganel-Lyn Condie: Wow. Just from a mental health standpoint, this is real, right? This is real talk happening right now. We all have a set of strengths and weaknesses. And what I would push back and ask this alum, has the job changed from what you thought it would be? Is the concerns that have been raised, are they a problem with ability or motivation? And I would ask yourself that, get really honest with yourself. And then if you have some clarity around that, say for example, it's an ability issue, well then what can you do to reframe that in a way that as a steward over that limitation, you get, quote unquote, like my both my kids are in college right now, a tutor where you get more information or training in that specific area.

If it's a motivation issue, I would get really clear why. And what I mean by motivation, not that you're lazy whoever asked this question, but motivation as in maybe the dynamics don't feel safe for you. Maybe you don't feel like you have been clearly trained in an area, and because of that, you're discouraged. And so your motivation or your approach to the situation, you've kind of checked out a little bit in these areas because there were some steps missed when you were first brought on.

Once again, there's a little bit of a Venn diagram there where there's a little bit of an overlap. That could be problem solved easily. If you still value having this position, what do you need to do to create a more positive work environment for yourself? You feel more engaged, you feel some more creative control? Or is that something that you can talk to a supervisor about. As a supervisor, to have someone that you're working with on your team and say, guess what? I've taken your feedback and I'm intentionally having some awareness and where I see some gaps, I need some additional training. I've found some training [at] a weekend conference, online resources, a tutor of some sort. Can I have some support in getting that? What that signals to your supervisor is that you are intentionally trying to problem-solve.

This is my last piece of advice, Anita, and only because I tend to do this myself. Don't get to future thinking. Three months feels like a short time. If you feel really overwhelmed, allow yourself to realize that you're not the same person you were last week. Every day we're getting new information and hopefully evolving and progressing in our lives. Don't get too future into the thinking. Sometimes I shut myself down in my ability and my motivation because I've already told myself a story of what's going to happen three months from now.

And literally the question was within a three month period of time. But I always say to myself, I don't know what life’s going to be like in three months. You may have a different supervisor, you may have a different skill set, you may have learned some things. Maybe new people have showed up on the team. And you together with them create a different environment, work situation that motivates and inspires you.

So I would say that as transparent as you can be, just like we've already discussed, the more information people have, the better we can move forward. Sometimes we want our partners to guess, our bosses to guess. We want everyone to guess. I'm a big fan of having the conversations, even when it feels uncomfortable, because it tends to put out a fire before it starts to really take over.

Anita Brick: It's so easy to have an upset that turns into resentment, which locks everything down. And there's a student, she said, I work for a well-established technology company, and I'm new to the organization. My manager doesn't include me in meetings and other cross-functional activities. Well, she does include my peers. I'm resenting this behavior and I'm feeling stuck. Any advice appreciated.

Ganel-Lyn Condie: Wow. I've been there and it hurts. So first and foremost, I want to validate that it doesn't create a safe work environment when you feel this way. It just doesn't. It doesn't bring out the best in any of us when we feel left out, when we don't have a sense of belonging, when we don't feel that connection, when there's not a good flow of communication happening within departments, within roles.

This is not a small thing. This is, to me, the biggest issue as leaders and as professionals that we face every day. It's what we face in our homes and it's what we face in our workplaces. It's that flow of information and that connection that allows us to do the work we came to do. And so I would say, first and foremost, I want you to feel validated.

And I love that this person said, I feel stuck. Of course you feel stuck because you're guessing and you're guessing and trying to address it. If you haven't had a conversation with your manager, it's time. If you've already had multiple conversations, then I'm going to suggest two things that help me from a mental health standpoint so that I don't have that resentment monster grow louder and louder every day, because that shuts me down, and it shuts all of us down when we have resentment.

So first and foremost, if you haven't had a crucial conversation with your manager, it's time. And I would say be willing to come in, not with a big spreadsheet or a PowerPoint of all the whys and whys and hows that this has happened. I would approach it with this phrase: can we have a conversation? Because I would like some feedback. I would like to be on the same page with you and be an asset to this department. What I'm sensing is there's a block between us. It could just be on my end, but I would love to have a conversation where you and I can get more on the same page, so I can be a support and an asset to you.

What that does is it takes the defensiveness out of the conversation. It lets the manager know you are working for their good and their fulfillment and their progress as well as you're aware that you're not always showing up in your best. So and then, this is my best advice, then say nothing. Write out your statement. Two sentences, practice it or whatever, and then stop and let there be that uncomfortable silence. There always is, and allow the manager to sit with it.

They may be unaware. This goes back to again the stories we tell ourselves. They may be unaware of what they've done. Maybe they have misinformation, or maybe there's been hurt that's been done or offense taken. This is the opportunity to clear the air. If that hasn't happened, that's my first advice.

Now, if this person has already tried that, they've already tried to address things, it's not resolved. It continues to happen. Once again, you may not get validation from other people. You're going to get it from Anita and I. We validate you. This is a real issue. It makes it cumbersome, clunky. That's my favorite word. Everything feels clunky when you're not flowing and you're not communicating well with your coworkers.

And so then I would say from a mental health standpoint, if you have already had the conversation, maybe you've addressed it multiple times. I would go back to giving yourself a boundary, because part of where you're feeling stuck and resentment is that you feel like you're trapped. And when I feel that way, I have to give myself an invisible boundary or deadline. Say, for example, you're going to try maybe one more conversation, or you're going to give it time to see if maybe you can make actions with someone else that's more lateral, get some information that way. Maybe you approach it in a different way. Once again, expansion. Circle a date on the calendar that you're going to give it another six weeks. And if at that point that's an arbitrary number, I don't know your financial situation, I don't know your work situation, I don't know your calendar of your life. But I would circle a date on the calendar.

I'm going to try these two things because action steps call us out of that stuck feeling. So when we have one, an actionable step forward, we're expanding, and two, a boundary, then we not only unstick ourselves, but we decrease the resentment. Because all of a sudden we don't feel victimized and trapped. I would say that a lot of what we do to each other says more about who we are, and not who the other person is.

So I would say the same thing for your manager. I have no idea what's happening in your manager's life and whatever they're going through or how they're approaching leadership says a lot of who they are. And the previous people that have asked questions about really hard situations, I would say this is a perfect example of what leader you won't be. You understand how this feels on the other side.

So circling that date allows that person to go forward in a way that you get to tell yourself, I just came out of something that was very difficult, and it was most of this year. It just started resolving with some leadership change that I didn't have any control over, but was greatly affecting me and had really wrecked some projects that I had poured my heart and soul into for three years. And the changes came kind of out of the blue. But I had given myself a boundary in the summer that I was going to hit to September. I wasn’t going to make any decisions during the summer. I was going to do my best to do my part, because I value showing up with 100% in my work because it reflects who I am. It has nothing to do with management. Then in September, I was going to take a look at things. I was going to decide was I willing to extend my boundary? Was I willing to keep working with the situation? Had it improved? In the meantime, I was not going to get trapped in the what if. And September rolled around, Anita, some major blocks were removed. We're sitting in a whole different situation as we approach December.

I'm glad I didn't make a knee-jerk reaction, and I'm glad I didn't bail because I'm hopeful for this next year and the expansion that's going to happen. So once again, it's leadership, learning, and it's your professional development. We'd love it to only come on a syllabus with a reading assignment and an essay we have to write. But the truth is the learning. I think, Anita, you'll agree with me on this. This is boots on the ground. This is real life in the trenches. And this allows for better leaders, better workers, better professionals in the future. But it's yucky when you're going through it. It really is.

Anita Brick: Oh my gosh. Yeah.

I'm curious because there was a related question by an alum. And it's not about being left out of meetings, but it feels like it is being left out of promotions. When it's not performance and other people are getting promoted and hearing all these reasons and excuses, which is making this person unhappy and disappointed. It sounds like the refrain that you gave about the meetings would apply here too.

Ganel-Lyn Condie: Yeah. And I would just add, because I really loved that question as well, goes specifically to the point of an ownership mindset. Ownership mindset is an easy place to be trapped by comparisons. Comparisons are a natural human experience. Any time I'm triggered by a comparison, I try to take a signal of comparison and go back to where I'm at.

This question about feeling like they're being left out and not being spoken to in a way that is positive, that is painful. Who calls out people in a meeting and puts them down? Someone that has probably had that done to them and has not processed that in an effective way, and has decided that's going to be their leadership style, right?

And I don't know anyone that feels safe in that kind of environment. And so I would say, what do you have power over? One of the most important things in stewardship is that it allows you to feel empowered. Ownership feels once again like your power is in everyone else's hands. In this situation, you have no control over how other people see you or treat you. You only have power over how you show up.

So I'm going to give this person that asked this question a 30-day assignment. The 30-day assignment is to become the person in the office, virtually or in-person, that compliments and acknowledges and celebrates everyone else.

Anita Brick: Love it.

Ganel-Lyn Condie: I, a few years ago, had this situation where all I seemed to hear about was the negative. No one seemed to celebrate the positive. I am a thank you note writer like old school with stamps. My grandma taught me. My husband as an executive, I've always encouraged him to keep the old-school note cards in his desk and write it out. That's a lost art and it's tactile and it can be kept and reread.

Be the person that sends that thank you text, email, or even an old-school handwritten note for 30 days. Be the person for 30 days to change the environment and see what happens. When I start to feel invisible, unappreciated, taken for granted, I can't change the people in my home or in my work environment, but I can change me.

And that's when I up my gratitude game. And when I do that, what not only happens is it's catchy, it is infectious, and it starts to ripple out. Maybe not everyone in your department all of a sudden becomes positive, respectful and acknowledging of one another. But I bet you, statistically speaking, if you experiment on this in 30 days, there will be at least one, if not more, that start to approach things differently.

We all want to be appreciated. We all want to be acknowledged for our offerings. You be the person that switches the switch of gratitude in the workplace. You take control of the environment you're creating for yourself. And in the meantime, realize you have no power over the story someone's telling you about themselves or you. You only have power over how you choose to show up.

Anita Brick: Totally true, totally get that. And I love that 30-day assignment.

Ganel-Lyn Condie: Thanks.

Anita Brick: We like to make things practical and actionable. And you gave us one thing, but I'm wondering if someone wants to move from ownership to stewardship, what are three actionable things that they can do to move in that direction, to reframe obstacles, and be happier and more productive?

Ganel-Lyn Condie: I love this question because I'm a listmaker. That's why I wrote the book with that in mind. I end each chapter with a check-the-voice-in-your-head list. It's not an overwhelming list. That would be my first actionable step. Check the voice in your head. What are you telling yourself? Because how we feel starts with what we're saying.

And if you're in an ownership voice, you will hear it in the next step that I'm going to suggest: your comparisons. The reality is your life experience, your intelligence, your strength list, your weak areas are going to be different than any other person on the planet. Even if you have identical twins, they still have a different set of circumstances, life experiences, and learning approaches to what they do.

When we go into comparisons, we are literally taking an elephant and judging it against an apple. Yes, they're both things that grow, but that's where the similarities change. Right? Or stop. And so check the voice in your head first and foremost. Just be aware. Are you talking to yourself in the way that feels expansive and hopeful? Are you talking about yourself to yourself in a way that you would never speak to a best friend or a coworker because they would never speak to you again if you talk to them that way?

Number two, check the comparisons, because that's a losing game. It is only reflective of what you value. And so if something is showing up in a trigger or your comparisons or jealousy, allow that to be a trigger back to your own goals, your own eye on your plate. Right, your own lane on the freeway, your own lane in the swimming pool. Those are three analogies.

And then finally, check your offering focus versus outcome focused. What I mean by that, and I know that may be controversial in a business setting because we use outcomes, we use reports, we have measurables and barometers, and I get that. But in the day in, day out of life, because I've lived long enough that whatever is happening today is never the end. And when I get myopic, and that's one of my favorite words, when I get myopic in my thinking and viewing of life, where I become so outcome focused and that's all I can see, it literally paralyzes me. When I pull back, take a wider lens and make my efforts that day, whether it's in business, whether it's with your health, whether it's with relationship, whether it's with your mental health as an offering, that propels me forward to show up and do it again the next day.

But if we think at any given point on the map that that's where we're stuck forever with superglue and we are never going to progress, I don't think anyone feels good about that. Just know that we're all works in progress. So check the voice in your head, check your comparisons, and be more offering focused, whether it's at work or your health or anything or all of the above. Instead of becoming myopic in your focus, it will be more expansive.

When you have an offering focus, you contribute. You show up. You stay hopeful. You express gratitude for your coworkers. You try to create connection. You notice one another. You plan for things in the future because you're in offering mindset versus that myopic outcome. It starts to feel like, well, this is how it's always going to be. We were a huge failure last quarter. There's no hope, there's no expansion to that. And I think the world for sure has shown us that from a business standpoint, the best business leaders navigate with a more pivoting approach, a more offering approach to life. If you keep approaching life of, every mistake is a learning opportunity, it is all for our learning.

I would just invite everyone to do those three things. I'm going to just preface this. I end the book with this. I wrote a book about a principle, which means if you don't arrive, you practice a principle. A 100 times a day, Anita, I switch into ownership, I catch myself and I switch out. I just did it yesterday. That is one of the things I have learned to be more patient. The more patient we are with ourselves, the more patient we're going to be with our coworkers, our administration, our managers, and everyone around us in the world. For me, that is the secret sauce of being a good steward. It's the patience of practicing the principle.

Anita Brick: We think of it as a practice rather than a one and done. It makes life better. And then we're just looking at getting better, not being perfect.

Ganel-Lyn Condie: Exactly.

Anita Brick: And this was amazing, by the way. And you are amazing.

Ganel-Lyn Condie: Oh, thank you. So are you Anita.

Anita Brick: Thank you. And I read the book earlier before we agreed to have this conversation today. And I reread it over the weekend. The stewardship principle, as you said, it's a principle and a practice, and it really is about reframing those obstacles, but more broadly, our life. Thank you for writing it. I mean, you are incredibly open. I mean, you are very open today. In the book, you share all kinds of things and the challenges, and you keep creating value wherever you go. And that is an amazing model for all of us.

Ganel-Lyn Condie: Thank you, Anita. That means so much. And I feel really honored to be with my new Chicago Booth friends. And I hope anyone that hears this that wants to reach out, I'm pretty easy to find cause I have the most unique name on the planet, and so Google will know exactly where you're trying to go if you just start typing G-A-N-E-L. And you should be able to find me, because I would love to hear from any of the friends of the CareerCast.

Anita Brick: Well, that would be great. Thank you very, very much. And thank you all for listening. This is Anita Brick with CareerCast at Chicago Booth. Keep advancing.