Navigate Difficult Conversations at Work Todd Davis

Anita Brick: Hi, this is Anita Brick, and welcome to CareerCast, at Chicago Booth to help you advance in your career. Today, we're delighted to be speaking with Todd Davis. He has over 35 years of experience in human resources, talent management, executive recruiting, sales and marketing. He has been with FranklinCovey for over 28 years serving as the Chief People Officer and Executive Vice President for over 18 of these years. And I know that you also had a very important role in the Innovation Group. I just can't wait to hear what you have to say. And by the way, this topic is really on people's minds I think today more than ever, so thank you for making the time to join us.

Todd Davis: Well, thank you for such a kind introduction. I think the first lesson that people should take away is have someone like yourself read a bunch of nice things about you and then have everybody listen. It's just a great way to start the day. So yes, you're right, this topic of difficult conversations is at the forefront of everybody's mind. I think it always has been, no more so than ever, certainly in the workplace, certainly a hot topic.

Anita Brick: Okay, good. Well, let's jump in because I know they want to hear from you. And we'll just have a conversation here and I look forward to all that we learn from you. So the first one is from an MBA student at Booth. And she said, "I know I need to mentally prepare for any challenging conversations, including interviews for a new role. What are a few things I could do that you have seen others do successfully? I am open to experimenting, by the way."

Todd Davis: Yeah. That's great. In the chief people officer role, a huge part of my role was of course talent development and the recruiting teams reported to me, and so I had a lot of experience in that area, and I appreciate the question. And I will tell you what is most impressive and stands out to companies and organizations and hiring managers are the research that you have done on the role itself and on the company. That would be my first piece of advice is to take the time to really understand the ins and outs of that organization or that role, and then be focused on what you can do for that role. It may sound second nature to you and me, Anita, but a lot of talented people will come in and they'll talk mostly about what they need. Well, there's a time for that. Obviously, hiring managers are looking for: What can you do for us? How can you help build our culture and build our organization?

And so focus on how your strengths and your talent and your experience and background align with what they're looking for and how you can help them continue to achieve their most important goals. The other thing I recommend to a lot of candidates who are interviewing for that is to know how to talk about yourself. Most people, some don't, but most people have a hard time talking about themselves.

Anita Brick: I would agree. In fact, we have programming around story every quarter. We offer two programs on story every quarter. So here's something that's a little bit different. This is from another Boothie, and he said, "Hi, Todd. I have been told that I need to be curious during difficult conversations. I agree in principle, but take myself off track when I feel that the other person isn't open to seeing things differently. I know I need to focus on changing myself, but I get frustrated when the other person won't even consider approaching things a different way. Where would you advise a leader to start?"

Todd Davis: You didn't tell me you were going to throw these tough ones at me.

Anita Brick: This is Booth. Come on.

Todd Davis: This is very helpful, thank you. So at FranklinCovey, we use what's called the see, do, get model. We talk a lot about paradigms, as this person has mentioned, because we know the way we see things influences everything that we do.

Anita Brick: These two people are peers. One person is open to driving through curiosity, and they find that the other person takes a stand and that's it.

Todd Davis: I've had a lot of discussions like this in my career, particularly in the chief people officer role. So if it were me and I were in, this is a peer situation, I, in a very respectful way, I call things out as they are. So if it were me, I would say, let's say it's you and me, Anita, but I have a hard time thinking that you would be not open to new paradigms. But anyway, if you were, I would say, "Anita, I wanted to talk about something. And I first of all want you to know how much I value you and I value our relationship. I really do." And you've got to be sincere in that.

And there's something that I'm observing, and again, it's my opinion, when we bring up new ideas and new ways to look at things, it seems to me, and again, it's my opinion, Anita, but it seems to me your mind is already made up. I will tell you, I have found great value in having this open-minded approach and considering whether my paradigm of something is accurate or complete. And let me give you an example, Anita. There was such and such on our team, and I was pretty sure that she was one ... Anyway, and then I would give an example of the paradigm shift I've experienced. And I did reiterate and say, "Anita, and again, please know our relationship means a lot to me. I have felt like we would make more progress if, and I'm just being really direct here, but if you might be more open to considering different ways to approach each project or different ways to discuss a topic."

Anita Brick: But it's always worked the way I've done it, so why should I shift? I get things done on time. The quality is there. But you're kind of making me a little defensive, so I'm not sure why?

Todd Davis: It's a really good point. And I guess what I'm sharing with you, and I'm going to be pretty vulnerable here, there are some ideas that I've had that I want to bring to the table and get out on the table. I know it's unintentional, but kind of shuts down those ideas, and I hope I'm sharing this in a high trust way with you because I care a lot about our relationship, and so I'm just being open and honest with you. And I'm more than welcome to hear things that you see I could be doing differently too, but I guess what I'm really going for here, Anita, is that we can be fully collaborative.

And I'm sharing with you one way that I see we could do that better, and I'm really open for you to sharing with me things that I might be doing that might be shutting down that collaboration. So I'm just telling you in all honesty and with deep caring for our relationship that, that style is having me hold back some of the things that I'd like to share because I don't feel like you would even be open to hearing them. I hope that's okay to share, but I just wanted to let you know that's what I'm hoping we can work towards in our relationship.

Anita Brick: Okay. I think that at the beginning, and I really like the way you turned that around, Todd, the beginning, I think it could set up for a defensiveness. Even the end could've set that up. You took responsibility, but it's really hard to take responsibility for difficult conversations, especially if it feels like it's the other person. But what you did is you changed the energy. You changed the dynamic in that moment. That showed a great deal of courage and I like exactly what you did. I think that was a good shift.

Todd Davis: I appreciate that. In our actual work sessions that we teach and that I use to coach people on for a long time, you just hit on the key foundation. And that is this balance of courage and consideration that each situation depends on what you lead with. But if you maybe lead with courage, then to your point, the person starting to feel defensive, you and I both know we don't hear much of anything if we're feeling defensive.

Anita Brick: For sure, yeah.

Todd Davis: And so always try to begin the conversation with, "I want you to know what I'm going to share with you is only because I care deeply," and try and make them feel less defensive. And then like I did, is share times when I've had feedback, or I'm open to feedback as well because we're all trying to get better together.

Anita Brick: I like that. Here's another variation of the mindset going into these conversations. This Boothie said, "I prepare for just about everything I do. However, no matter how much I prepare for challenging conversations, it doesn't seem to help. I will admit most of the prep is worrying, which leads to feelings of conflict and anxiety. Any advice on how to positively shift this is more than welcome."

Todd Davis: Whoever this person is, boy, do I hear you. It's the thing that we and that I try and focus on most is our fear of these emotions, what's going to happen in the conversation, sometimes the worry will get so much that we avoid the conversation altogether. We put it off longer than we should. And that's natural, from personal experience, the worst thing that we can do, but it's very understandable. What I would advise and what we teach in our work sessions too, when you're preparing, you actually write out, we call it a purpose statement and a positive intent statement.

And back to this notion of this balance of courage and consideration, well, on the courage part, you'd write out, "I want you to know the reason I'm bringing this to the forefront and to our attention is because there is a situation going on that I want to make sure we're both aware of. I think it's important enough that we address it." And then the positive intent statement, which we talked about in the past example, is, and I want you to know, I care deeply about your success, if I'm their leader, or I care deeply about our relationship or the success of this project. I want to make sure that we're doing this in a way that is a win for you and a win for me.

Writing out of a purpose statement and a positive intent statement is critical. The emotions are there because something's at stake. And something's at stake for both people. We can spell that out in our purpose statement and in the positive intent statement. That's the best way I have found to get prepared for this conversation. Once we're in the conversation, to remember these three key tools, when the conversation is started, how to handle these emotions, pause, don't panic, observe, don't judge, and ask, don't assume. We've clarified why we're having the conversation. We've clarified our sincere intent is not attacking that person, it's only to make the project, or relationship, or whatever the situation is, better, and then to start hearing them out, and listen and give them space to talk with the pausing. Don't have preconceived notions, but just observe. And then ask for clarifying questions. Each situation will be different, and I'm not sure how you're going to solve the situation, but those tools, they're immensely helpful in difficult conversations.

Anita Brick: I agree. How do you stay centered to not get taken off or swayed by someone else's mood or emotional content? I think that takes a lot of practice.

Todd Davis: That's a good point, Anita. And I will, and again, I've done this for years so it's real easy to sit here and say, "Do this, and this and this." I will get myself very comfortable with saying, "That's interesting. I'd like to take a couple minutes and think about that." It's okay to take a break in conversation too, depending on the situation. Or if some new information comes up that you were unaware of, and it kind of throws you, to say, "That's really helpful. I'd like to think about this a little bit and maybe we can resume the conversation." I know that sounds a little bit odd, but I have used that many times because I don't want to be forced into, I've got to think really quickly on my feet now when I've had this new information into the conversation. And so I think it's okay, I know it's okay to ask for that space.

Anita Brick: All right. Here's a tricky one. I think this is a masterclass, [inaudible 00:10:24] kind of question. This is peer to peer, but they're not on the same team. This Boothie said, "I need to share some unproductive behavior with someone I don't really respect. I know he will sense how I feel and will stop listening. I would. How can you have others see you as someone who wants to solve a problem and not just create a dead end?"

Todd Davis: Yeah. And these are peers, you said.

Anita Brick: But not on the same team, they're on different teams.

Todd Davis: Okay. This is masterclass, but there's a way to have the conversation. You already brought up in the very first example the most important thing I think we can remember, and that is, anything we can do to make the person feel less defensive, there's going to be some level of defensiveness regardless, but anything you can do. And so think about that ahead of time. So I've got this peer, he or she's on another team. So let's say it's you, because I do my best thinking when I'm role playing, my conversation would begin with something like, hey, Anita, first of all ... And I'm going to repeat a little bit of what I did in the previous example, but I want you to know how much I appreciate our relationship. Relationships are important to me. There's something that I have observed, that I'm observing, that I believe, and it's my opinion, I believe is holding you back. And I guess what I first of all want to say is if-

Anita Brick: Oh, wait a minute. Wow. I don't even know you that well. Now all of a sudden, you're attacking me.

Todd Davis: And so I guess I want some clarification off script for a minute.

Anita Brick: Okay. They're on two different teams, but they sometimes have cross-functional team projects.

Todd Davis: Mm-hmm.

Anita Brick: When someone says, "You don't know me that well," it could be because they really don't, or it could be the person is just angry that they would bring it up. And maybe that's part of the behavior to begin with. I know you and I can only speculate, but if you have someone who is exhibiting not such great behavior, maybe this is the essence of it that my fake, mock reaction was indicative of the kind of behavior that you want to try to help me with.

Todd Davis: They're just defensive all the time. That's a really good point, so that is helpful clarification. So it might be some like, hey, Anita, and maybe we'd meet over coffee or something, and say, "I want to share something with you. Would you be open to that?" And then, boy, the person's on guard. What is he going to say next?

Anita Brick: Okay. Well, what's this about?

Todd Davis: Last year, on the X, Y, Z project I was working on, Bill, who is my colleague, he gave me some feedback on something that I really wasn't even aware that I was doing. But nevertheless, he called me out on it. And at first, I was pretty defensive, but then later on, I realized that Bill only had my best interest at heart. And he shared that with me, and of course, you're thinking the whole time, "Why are you sharing this with me?" I've been thinking about this. I have observed something. I think you are a really talented person from what I know. And just as a friend, or maybe a want to be friend, if we don't know each other, I was thinking about that situation when Bill talked to me about something. In the long run, it really helped me, even though I felt defensive at first. And observed this thing I want to bring up with you, but I've given it a lot of thought. I've wondered. Should I bring it up or not?

And guess at the end of the day, Anita, I hope that if the situation were reversed and you saw a behavior that I had that you felt was hindering me, that you'd feel comfortable enough bringing it to me, even though we don't know each other that well. In the spirit of just wanting to help, I wanted to share blah, blah, blah with you. I'm not saying that would be perfect for you, but I don't think there is a perfect way to approach this with two peers that are not even on the same team. But that's how I would approach it. I would share, first of all, a time when I've been given feedback, so that they know I'm not trying to be condescending to them or just being a know-it-all. And then I would just let them know my sincere intent.

Anita Brick: I actually do think that the way you approached it showed empathy. You didn't drive into it like you did initially when I pretended to be defensive. You approached it in a way that I felt that you cared. I felt that you weren't doing it to show me how great you are, but that you actually cared about me and that if I was open to it, fine, but you at least felt that you respected me enough to want to help me, and I think that worked.

Todd Davis: Thank you for that. And what you and I are doing right now, I strong recommend. And I do that with people. In my previous role, I did that all the time, is we would role play. And as people were coming to me and saying, "How would you prepare this conversation?" So this person that asked the question, I would strongly encourage her or him to get with someone they trust that's not involved in the situation and say, "Hey, I'm going to have this conversation. Would you mind role playing with me?"

And I like what you did, Anita, is just pushing back, kind of being a little bit or lot difficult, so the person can be prepared for those kinds of responses. And what are you going to say if they say this, and what are you going to do if they say that? And at the end of the day, I think in this particular situation, all you can do is share your heart, share your intent and say, "Gosh, please know my intent wasn't to try and be condescending or make you feel defensive. I just saw something and I remembered a time when it really helped me that somebody pointed that out to me. I was just trying to do that, so I hope you'll take it in that way."

Anita Brick: Yeah. I think that was good. So here's the other side of it, so here's an alum who is a manager and has a team. And he said, "When I first started in my leadership role about a year ago, I think a set a very certain, very specific and wrong tone for our weekly check ins. I had my agenda and I did a lot more talking than listening. What would be a step that you've seen others take to create more trust and real dialogue? I think I just overstepped, but it's my first leadership role."

Todd Davis: I hesitate to say this one's easy, but honestly, I have experienced this one and it's easier than you think. I had it modeled for me by an earlier leader and I have had to use it myself, not in this exact same situation. But what I would recommend to a leader who came to me and asked about this is I would say, "You know what, if you are sincere in wanting to have a reset, that's exactly what you share with your team."

So in your next team meeting, have your business and go through whatever and say, "I'd like to take a moment and share something with you and be pretty vulnerable here. I have high respect for this team and I'm excited to be in the leadership role. I'm new at this and I'm learning right alongside with you. And I'm reflecting back on how we got started, how I got started in this leadership role, and I realized, while it was unintentional, I started to slip into what felt even to me as a micromanager. I felt like I was checking up and not showing the levels of trust that I want to show. We have a lot of talent on this team and I'm really excited to be the leader of this to work with you in a way that we can bring our best work forward. But I want you to know I'm asking your permission for a little bit of a reset because here's how I'm hoping we can operate, and I'm hoping we can have a high culture of feedback both for me and for you, that we can feel comfortable sharing with one another areas that we're doing great in and areas that we can improve.

"And I just would like you to know, as your leader, I am as open to that feedback because I hope the rest of you will be. And I would ask you for your permission to have a reset on this, and we kind of start fresh as far as the trust goes and the way that we're reporting on our tasks and things like that." I would call it out just like that. And I will tell you, Anita, it was amazing when I watched, her name was Pam, my former leader 28 years ago, do that. And I have done it a couple of times. People, nothing but respect for you, if you're sincere.

Anita Brick: Absolutely. If it's fake, yeah, forget it. Actually, that's comforting. I'm sure it will be comforting to people listening because people say this all the time. Well, first impressions stick, and it sounds like yes, and you can do a reset. I appreciate your sharing that with us, I'm sure you will make more than a few people feel much better.

Todd Davis: Well, I hope so, but thank you. I've certainly gotten caught up in the notion. Well, the leader, gosh, I get up there and admit that mistake, are they going to think I'm weak and that I don't know what I'm doing? No, they're going to have huge respect for you. The leader, when she or he can show vulnerability, now not apologizing every other day for the mistakes they're making, then they're probably not in the right role. If they can be truthful about the example we just shared, it will go a long ways in the overall respect the team has for their leader.

Anita Brick: Great. Do you have time for a couple more questions?

Todd Davis: Absolutely.

Anita Brick: Okay, terrific. So this is an alum who is not the executive leader, so that's the context for this. Here's an alum, he said, "Our organization is going through a difficult time and the tension is palpable. Can someone who is not in an executive leadership position help create actions to support the next steps and encourage the team to complete them? There's a lot of pressure and not a lot of positive feedback. I know it's possible, but I'm a bit stuck and would really value your advice. Thank you."

Todd Davis: Thanks for that great question. I'm sorry, but we're out of time. No. I'm kidding.

Anita Brick: No, no, no, no.

Todd Davis: I'm going to assume from this person it sounds like it's not an option, probably not very vital for them to go to somebody who's on the executive team.

Anita Brick: I don't think so, yeah. I don't think so.

Todd Davis: Very easy for you and I to talk and say, "Oh, well, just do this and this, and you'll be fine." I understand, says easy, does hard. This situation, without knowing more details, I would focus on a concept we call our circle of influence versus our circle of concern. I would talk with the team or the team member that I feel comfortable with just saying, "Okay, in light of these circumstances, or in light of what the leadership is doing, what could I do to influence things in the right way?" Maybe I can't fix everything, but too often, I have found that we get caught in, well, I'm not in that leadership role, so I just have to live with the decision they make. Well, okay, I understand that approach. But is there anything I can do to influence this decision, or this project, or whatever it is, is there anything I can do to influence? Can I work within my circle of influence versus just everything that I'm concerned about?

And so without knowing the specific things they're trying to change, I would encourage people to say, "Okay, what if it were ... " In fact, I love this phrase, our old, our former CEO used to say, "What if it were illegal not to solve this problem?" And I love that question because I would say to this person, "Okay, what if it were illegal for you not to come up with one action item, this team member, one action item that you could do to have a positive impact on the team this week?" The leader's who the leader is, the executive leadership team is who they are. But what if it were illegal for you not to think of one thing to do? And then we'd start to brainstorm. Okay, well, I could do this or I could, I don't know the details enough to add to it, but I have found you can always come up with some initial steps that aren't going to solve the problem, but they're going to get people remembering that they do have a choice. They have some control.

And so I can choose my response to any situation. I can choose my response to the executive leadership team that's in place that maybe I don't agree with. And I can figure out: How can I positively influence this, or should I leave, or whatever? But I think reminding people that they have a choice in every situation allows them that creative mind that we all have to say, "Okay. What would be something where I could positively influence this?" I know that's not going to solve all the world's problems here, but that's where I would start with this situation.

Anita Brick: Agree. I think that if we take on things that are way out of our control, most people get frustrated. I think your point though, find something that is within your area of influence, so if you focus only on the concern, it's going to get bigger and bigger. The same thing I believe is true with influence. If you start looking at: Where can you influence? Where do you have control over? And you take steps, I think the answer you gave was good. Like you said, people want to know that they're making a positive difference. In one action, we can move things. And that could inspire someone else to say, "Well, if Todd and Anita took an action, wait, I can do that too." Maybe not in the same way, but I have influence over here, and so you start creating maybe not coordinated, organized, and planned, but when someone takes action and other people have more hope, and then they have more strength to move ahead. So I think that's a great answer, so thank you.

Todd Davis: Well, thank you for saying that so beautifully. In fact, if you'd just travel around with me, I'll say things that won't sound very clear, and then if you would restate them in your beautiful, articulate way, I think it will be more helpful for people.

Anita Brick: I think that's a good idea. Let's do it. Just kidding. It's kind of fun to be able to ... I think sometimes, I think you do just fine. I don't think you needed me to restate. I just wanted to acknowledge you because it can be so frustrating to be somewhere where, let's just say there's a lot of revenue pressure, or reduction in cost pressure, or something, and it feels way too big, so a lot of people just throw up their hands and say, "Forget it."

Todd Davis: The question I remind people to ask in this. Okay, what's the reactive approach? Because we're human beings, we're reactive. What is the proactive approach? I get it that we've got to cut costs, or we've got to increase revenue. Okay, and then that goes against everything that we're trying to do here. But what's the proactive approach? So just what you said.

Anita Brick: Fine. Okay. Difficult conversations have nuances, they are each a little bit different in their own ways. But we also know that they're ... And you've articulated some of them, there are some macro things that we can think about. So our audience loves practical, actionable things to do. What are three things that you would advise someone to do who wants to navigate difficult conversations, build confidence, and even expand the relationships that emerge from those difficult conversations?

Todd Davis: Yeah. Three things, I'm trying to limit it down.

Anita Brick: If you need more than three, I won't cut you off, promise.

Todd Davis: It's fine. So the first thing is whenever I'm anticipating or feeling the need to have the conversation that I know is going to be difficult, I ask myself, "Todd, why do you feel the need to have this? Because every once in a while, hopefully not as I mature, but every once in a while, it's, "Well, I just want to feel better about telling this person off." Is there a worthy purpose, a healthy purpose for having this conversation? So the first thing would be to make sure that you're really clear on what the purpose is for the conversation, what you hope the outcome of it to be. So that would be the first question, first thing I would ask people to remember.

The second thing would be one word, and that is empathy. Empathy is not agreeing or disagreeing, but having empathy, beginning the conversation with empathy, which a huge part of empathy is curiosity, so even though you're initiating the conversation, you're really seeking to understand. As Dr. Covey used to say in The Seven Habits, habit five, listen with the intent to understand, not with the intent to reply. So empathy, why am I having this conversation? Be really clear about whether it's important and it's worthy and healthy to have the conversation, the second is enter the conversation with empathy. I'm really trying to understand. Empathy covers so many important things, the positive intent that you and I talked about, not making the person defensive, not making the person feel embarrassed. Empathy will bring out you sharing when you've been given feedback. Empathy will bring out when you're saying, "I want you to know my only intent is to have us be even more successful together than we already are." Empathy will bring out a whole mountain of good things, so be clear on the reason you're having the conversation, empathy.

And then I would say the last thing is just real clarity. We haven't talked about this, but this is really important. When I've had a difficult conversation with someone, whether I'm their supervisor, whether I'm the chief people officer, whether I'm the employee who has initiated it with my leader, I will always, always send a followup email, letter, something in writing thanking them for the conversation, and then bulleting out, I want to make sure that I understood, or that we understood, or that we're on the same page. If I'm the employee to my leader, I still want to say, "I want to make sure that I'm clear on everything we talked about. Here is what I understood." It's so interesting to me that I'm sure you've experienced this. We can say things and we can even talk very clearly, but then I see those same things in writing and I go, "Oh, wait a minute. I didn't mean that, or this isn't what I was saying." Well, no, that's what you said.

I get very habitual at following up in writing in a very nice way. Thank you so much for your time. If it was a discussion and a leader, and I had to talk to somebody about their negative performance, I would say, "Really appreciated your time and your openness to the conversation." Depending on how it went, I might say, "It was difficult, but I appreciated that you would have the conversation. I wanted to make sure I didn't miss anything. Here is what we discussed, the current situation is, and here's what needs to be changed. Please let me know if I've missed anything." That's what I would say as a leader.

If it's a peer to peer, I would follow up in writing. Just wanted you to know how much I appreciated our time today. Thank you for allowing me to bring up the things I wanted to discuss. Here's what I took away from it. Is there anything that I missed? I have found that to be more than valuable in difficult conversations.

Anita Brick: I think it's very important that the three things that you mentioned apply to any conversation.

Todd Davis: That's right.

Anita Brick: Whether it is purpose, or empathy, and clarity, you could have five people in a conversation and everybody walks away with different takeaways. Either we come from a different point of view, and/or we weren't listening completely, and/or ... So I love to follow on what I take away from this is that you probably are aware of the model of confidence and warmth. When you think about confidence and warmth, people admire people who are like that. And what you framed up for us was how to show the confidence piece, that is there, but also, the warmth. So thank you for that, thank you for making the time. I know you have a lot of things going on. And the fact that you shared these insights with us and made time for us, I really, really appreciate it.

Todd Davis: Well, and I appreciate you. And these were great questions. Some of your diplomatic pushback was really helpful. I've learned some things in this last hour, and I'm always learning, so I appreciate you. Thank you so much.

Anita Brick: Well, thank you. Thanks so much. And thank you all for listening. This is Anita Brick with CareerCast at Chicago Booth. Keep advancing.