Getting Unstuck: Bouncing Back From a Career Detour

Anita Brick: Hi, this is Anita Brick, and welcome to CareerCast at the Chicago GSB to help you advance in your career. Today we're delighted to be speaking to Dr. Timothy Butler, who is the cofounder and principal of CareerLeader. He is also director of MBA Career Development Programs at Harvard Business School, where he's worked since 1984.

He, together with Dr. James Waldroop, have developed—many of you are familiar with this—an internet-based interactive career assessment program called CareerLeader, which is used in organizations worldwide. Tim has lectured at business schools, corporations, and other organizations throughout North America, Asia, and Europe; appears frequently as a keynote speaker; and is also frequently interviewed in various popular media. Today, we're going to talk about your latest book, Getting Unstuck.

So many people feel stuck for a whole variety of reasons. The response to questions was just really phenomenal.

Timothy Butler: Thank you for that generous introduction. It's my pleasure to be here.

Anita Brick: In your book, you talk about how an impasse or a detour is actually a necessary thing. Why is it needed, and how is that beneficial?

Timothy Butler: OK, well, I would make, probably, a distinction between impasse and detour. An impasse is a situation in our lives where our usual ways of problem-solving and thinking about what needs to come next are not working. In other words, we typically proceed with an either conscious or unconscious plan for what's going to happen next, how we're going to accomplish more immediate goals, how we're going to meet various challenges.

But an impasse is a situation where we will face an environment or a challenge, where our typical way of thinking doesn't work. And the reason why it's necessary is that it is only at these times, really, that we’re forced to challenge ourselves and the mental models we have about the way the world works and how we solve problems.

So what often looks like a setback or a problem, or perhaps a detour, to use your language, really is an invitation for us to say, what is it that I'm really after? What is my vision? Am I moving towards it or not? And maybe the typical ways I have of thinking about it or learning are not working and I have to find others.

So that's how I would talk about an impasse.

Anita Brick: So when you think about it, when you think of all the students and alumni and all the people that you've worked with over the years, what are some key qualities that people have that they're actually able to do this, as opposed to get mired in the obstacle?

Timothy Butler: Well, I would not make a distinction in terms of people who are good at impasse or bad at impasse, because initially, impasse feels bad to everybody. OK, the question is, once you realize you're in an impasse, then how resilient are you? I think that initially, an impasse comes as a surprise that we try to muscle our way through using whatever has worked for us in the past, and until the point where it's clear that it's not working— and it's at that point where what is demanded is that we are willing to drop our mental model, drop our way of understanding the situation, and be open for new types of information, new types of problem-solving.

And there are some people who are more resilient in that regard. OK? Some of us insist on trying to force the issue—use old, more familiar ways of problem-solving beyond the point when they're obviously not working.

Anita Brick: Yeah, right. I know, and I get that. I was looking at the model in your book, and they never get to the point where they're able to go beyond what they've learned in terms of strategic problem-solving and really move to real imagination. What are some things that help people make that move across that bridge?

Timothy Butler: I think that for many people, unfortunately, it comes down to the severity of the challenge. It comes down to a situation that develops to a point where they have no option other than to sit down with somebody to really entertain different ways of working. One big question then would be, at what point do you get some help? At what point do you turn to a confidante, a friend?

At what point do you turn to a coach and say, my ways of understanding this, my ways of thinking aren't working, and I need help? And I think that increasingly, people are more willing to recognize that at times of major impasse, they do need some type of assistance or help.

Anita Brick: Great. Well, there are a lot of questions, and one of the things I like to do is pose some scenarios, and maybe we can brainstorm a little bit on how people might bridge that gap.

Timothy Butler: Sure.

Anita Brick: So one person wanted to—this is a current Evening student who wanted to move to a different office so that actually he could pursue his MBA. And in doing so, he took a voluntary demotion because there weren't any positions at his level. But he was willing to do this. And now he's having a hard time bridging that gap, because now people see him in the demoted role rather than in the role that he had been in and what he aspires to do. And he's kind of stuck. He's not really sure how to explain it.

Timothy Butler: Now, let me ask you a couple questions about these specific situations. How long has he been in this new role?

Anita Brick: He's been in the new role for about 18 months.

Timothy Butler: So for quite some time. First of all, that is a flag when most people are reviewing resumes or in an interview situation, if it becomes clear that a move is either lateral or in fact a demotion, he's right in saying that this is going to raise a flag in an interview, a resume situation. What he needs to do is to be able, without becoming defensive, to simply state the logic of this decision.

He's got a good story to tell. He's choosing an MBA program. That's the one that he wants to be in. It's important for him. He's making the commitment of a move to devote himself to furthering his education, and he should make that very clear. He might even decide to make that part of a cover letter statement. In any case, whether it's an interview or a cover letter, he should make it very directly and with confidence and not sound defensive about what is actually a developmental step for him.

Anita Brick: So what if someone is in a more dire situation and they took what they consider to be menial jobs so that they could pay their bills and have medical insurance? OK, how do you then explain that? I mean, what are some things that you would recommend that someone does to explain that?

Timothy Butler: So you’re talking about a situation where someone who was in an MBA-like role took a very much non-MBA type work because it was a financial emergency. Well, the first question I would ask is for how long did this individual do that? If it was a stopgap measure for a couple of months, that's something that need not show up on a resume and probably shouldn't.

If it's a situation where someone has done this for an extended period of time, you know, that's something else. I wish I could talk to the individual in question, of course. So the overall frame here is, is whatever decision you make moving towards some type of goal in terms of knowledge or experience, in a situation where you clearly have to make some money or you clearly have to get health care benefits, to the extent that there are options, you should look at them and ask the question, what can I learn?

Even if the actual work that I'm doing could be interpreted as menial or interpreted as you know, beneath my previous position or not MBA-type work? Even if that's the case, there are some circumstances in which you're being exposed to environments or have access to people that could add your knowledge and experience towards a more ultimate goal or more ultimate vision.

And you should always choose the work that will do that, and be able to articulate what you are after in making that choice.

Anita Brick: Yeah, that's a very good point. And I think what you're saying is that regardless of the situation, to think about what skills, even what character attributes you're developing. Sometimes we develop, say, like you said before, more resilience or more determination or maybe even maybe it's humility, and all those things could be crafted into a story.

Timothy Butler: Yes, indeed, there are other aspects that could be highlighted as well. For example, proximity or closeness to the customer. I mean, let's say that this individual was in an MBA-type role, and they ended up taking …. retail sales and working in a store type of job. In the world of retail, that's valued experience. I mean, even if they're being paid significantly less than they were in their MBA position, that is experience that's going to be valued.

Always looking at the immediate choice, as urgent as it might be, against an ultimate learning goal is probably what will allow you to make the best decision, even if it seems like a decision that's a compromise or a detour.

Anita Brick: That's a very good point. On the other hand, what about someone who has an employment gap and not because he or she did not want to work, but because that person made the decision to care for a family member during an illness?

Timothy Butler: Yes.

Anita Brick: How does someone explain that kind of employment gap, especially in today's market?

Timothy Butler: Well, first of all, I would again ask that same question for what period of time was this? If it was a couple of months, it need not show up.

Anita Brick: Over a year.

Timothy Butler: Over a year is a different story, in which case they should be very forthright. OK, very human situation. It's something that we could all face and it should be just dealt with directly, forthrightly, and most importantly, not defensively. When I work with people who are coming to me and we talk about their strategy or the way they present themselves in interviews, I'm often struck by when that individual is faced with a situation that they feel is maybe their disadvantage, that they become very defensive.

The biggest way in which answers become defensive is when they are long. OK? You are asked a question to explain what was going on during this period of time, and your question goes on and on and on about different alternatives, different possibilities, and why you did, this rather than being very direct: I was the only person available for an urgent healthcare emergency within my family, and I needed to respond to it.

That's a great answer to a question like that. Brief, to the point, but most importantly not defensive.

Anita Brick: Absolutely. Because it doesn't add to your candidacy but it can detract from it. What if you were the person who had a career detour because of personal health issues? One of our alums had quit his or her job because of a chronic health issue. Travel and long hours were really making it very, very difficult to actually function.

How would this person explain and really get back into the workforce? It seems like this is a shorter timeline. It's more like 4 or 5 months rather than a year. How would someone do that? Especially if the limitations that took them out of the workplace are still present.

Timothy Butler: OK, these are really good questions. These are difficult situations …. And this is the way I'd look at this situation. And that is, rather than focusing on what you're leaving, focus on what you're going to, even if it's an unemployment situation. So you're highly stressed. There's a health situation. You've got to leave a position that just demands too much of you physically.

So what are you going to do during the time when you are recovering? That's the issue. Are you going to be actively building on knowledge and experience? So during those 4 or 5 months, can you be taking a course? Can you be reading or researching, you know, in an area in great depth? Can you be networking with people, staying in touch with the developments in a particular market area?

Can you be doing things that you could talk about in your next interview? I'm thinking of someone who recently was in a transition situation and has chosen to use this time between whatever is going to come next to really research a particular area of alternative energy and investment opportunities that might be available there. This person is going to become an expert during this period of transition.

So that is what I would counsel to someone in this situation. Don't think of this recovery period as a blank. Think of it as an opportunity—on your own time, in a framework that's going to allow you to get healthy—to really add to your knowledge and experience.

Anita Brick: It's a good point. I remember a couple of years ago, there was a woman who was very interested in a particular sector in consulting, however, had zero experience in the sector and zero experience in consulting and did exactly what you suggested. And as she started reading and writing and she interviewed people and wrote articles that were published on the web, she started getting calls to be a keynote speaker in this area, because she was such a knowledge expert that she was able to make that transition.

And I think it took her about two years.

Timothy Butler: Right. And you make a good point, Anita, with how one can stay active on the internet. Even when one is healing or recovering, one can join blogs that are focused on a specific topic. One can start one's own website or blog around a particular area of interest and reach an audience, even while you are determining your daily schedule.

Anita Brick: Good point. So there was another group of questions that had to do with being self-employed, either by choice or by necessity. And then how do you then position yourself? Because some people would say, well, OK, now why do you want to leave your own gig and do something in a large organization? What would you recommend that someone do to work around that detour?

Timothy Butler: Well, again, my answer would vary depending upon the specific circumstances of the individual. So let me make some presumptions here. Let me make sure I'm still answering the question. So let's presume the more difficult situation where in fact you were self-employed because you had to leave an employment situation and that was not your choice.

And let's say that your self-employment is a situation that you don't want, and that it really is a placeholder where you're doing an active job search.

Anita Brick: OK.

Timothy Butler: Yeah, that's really the most difficult situation in this case. Two things. One is to be authentic and straightforward about your situation. And the second is to cast your decision, and your decision to seek employment again, in terms of learning and growth.

So you can talk about the fact that you've been, you know, working self-employed as a consultant in this particular area, that you're, you know, developing your expertise, but you're seeking positive things that you've discovered are highly important for you, that you want to be around on a daily basis. People who are equally as excited, engaged about this particular aspect of the market or this particular subject matter. This is something that I often observe in people who have been self-employed, who have decided to be consultants, even under better circumstances.

Their needs for affiliation are higher than initially estimated. And this is a legitimate thing. I think this is something that an interviewer can understand: that you've got a lot out of this situation. It's enabled you to really develop your expertise, but you're now looking for the affiliative value of professionals with similar interests.

Anita Brick: Very, very good point. There was another related question. How do you get beyond that gatekeeper, whether it's an electronic gatekeeper or a real gatekeeper, who's only looking at marquee names and job titles and get them to at least talk to you because you have the competencies.

Timothy Butler: This is a topic that applies across all job and job search categories. It ties to current MBAs, you know, who are finishing up an MBA program, as well as to someone who is in some type of transition later on in their professional life. It's always about getting to a decision-maker. It's always about networking. OK, the basic point is this: who do you know that knows somebody who can put in a word for you?

You need to find your way to someone who is a decision-maker, and who will not be merely considering whatever resumes made it through the screens they've been put in place in that particular situation.

Anita Brick: So how do you do that? The hiring managers are really sort of hidden in many ways. I think you can probably use things like LinkedIn to tease some of that information out, but what else would you advise someone to do? Let's say it's someone with about 5 to 7 years post MBA. And really would like to get into consulting, but was in the market during the last big dip and didn't make it and consequently is still seeking that. And has the underlying competencies but is having a hard time getting in the door.

Timothy Butler: OK. The direct approach is to figure out who the hiring manager is and figure out a way of networking to him or her. There's also an indirect route, and that is just to get connected with anybody within that organization. The more senior, the better. So use your network to get to somebody, even if they're in a different office of the same organization.

But find your way into a point where you can have an informational interview or some type of contact with somebody at as senior a level as possible, because what you want to accomplish then is for that to be a highly positive experience with some recommendation from that person to talk to someone else in the organization, and even that person may not be the hiring manager for the job that you want most, but what you're doing actually is just building a mini network within that organization and moving your way closer to someone who is in a position to actually talk to you about an opening.

What you might find is that if you really want to break into an organization, it may not be in the role that you initially targeted. It may not be in the same, you know, practice group. It may not be in the same office, the city where you want to be, and a more basic question is, are you willing to be that flexible?

In this case, how much do you want to be a consultant with that organization? Do you want it enough to start off in a different office? Do you want it enough to start off in a different practice area? Flexibility is very important if you have very poor network access to go directly.

Anita Brick: OK. One of the GSB alums was very, very concerned. He didn't go into the specifics, but made a bad decision early on in his career. He's concerned that it will be very difficult for his current manager to forget, but he kind of likes his job and likes his manager, and he's trying to think of, is there any way to get past that kind of impasse?

Timothy Butler: Let me be clear. So he made a poor decision on the job?

Anita Brick: Yeah, on the job.

Timothy Butler: And this was a highly visible decision, which his boss is well aware of. Is that the situation? And so the concern here is that his opportunities for growth, advancement have been limited because of this decision. The perception that he made poor judgment—is that the situation?

Anita Brick: Yes. And the job requires really good judgment. So it sort of exacerbates the problem. How do you regain the trust of your manager when you made a mistake?

Timothy Butler: Well, there's really only one way you do that, and that is you develop a new track record of consistently good judgments—that you acknowledge a mistake and that you express that in the appropriate setting to your boss. This was an anomaly. This is not the way I usually operate. And I'm setting the goal to demonstrate that to you. Then consistently develop a track record.

Now, the question that's always present is how bad was the mistake, and to what extent will the manager's viewpoint on this not be amenable to change? That's a good question to ask. That doesn't change your immediate tactic of building a new track record, but it may be a situation where you have to think about transferring and working in an environment where that doesn't follow you quite so closely.

Anita Brick: Even if you love your boss, you may need to reestablish yourself.

Timothy Butler: Yes, the important issue here is diagnostic. What is your real assessment of your manager and his or her flexibility and willingness to be open, and to place this one mistake in context? If you see your manager as a flexible, open-minded person, then you take one course of action, and if you don't, you'd probably take another.

Anita Brick: We know that there has been lots of turmoil in the financial markets, and there were a couple of questions around that. One was from an Executive MBA student who was part of an integration of two financial services organizations, and the integration stopped because the deal stopped. Now, there's going to be a whole new cast of characters, right? This person's question was, is it time to just pull the plug and move on and look for something else?

Or will it be viewed as disloyal? And how will that look? I mean, in the sea of suffering, you know, do you jump ship or do you continue on?

Timothy Butler: And this is very timely and obviously very difficult because the situation in financial services, the situation in the banking world in particular is so fluid. There's such a high level of uncertainty in that environment right now. I was down in New York just about 10 days ago talking to MBAs in the banking sector who were facing actually very similar situations.

You know: What do I do now? There's been an acquisition, there's been a merger. It's not at all clear how much overlap there's between the two entities, how secure my position would be or not, if I was working with these individuals down there on Wall Street. One thing that kept coming up in the conversation: as you look at alternatives, are you being realistic about alternatives? When things get very difficult, when uncertainty goes up, one’s first instinct is to move, but move where?

If the … MBA who you're talking about has significant financial services banking experience and they're pretty much— they've been labeled as a banker and that's who they are, and that's who they want to be, you know, the banking world right now is in turmoil. Just moving or finding a situation, looking for a situation that might be safer, that might be very hard to assess. If there may be opportunities in, you know, certain banks that seem to be a lot more stable, that might be worthwhile exploring.

I would caution against moving too quickly in this situation. You know, a lot of these mergers, acquisitions have been announced just in the past month, and it'll take another 2 or 3 months for these organizations to really figure out what the new structure is going to be, which positions will be available, and who will be asked to stay.

So there'll be a period of uncertainty. And just jumping during this period could be hazardous.

Anita Brick: And I think that for this particular person, there are certainly those considerations and he's on the IT side. So I think he has a little bit more flexibility than someone in M&A. But I think it's a personal decision. I think he's trying to decide, is he being a bad person?

Timothy Butler: I'm sorry. No, I didn't hear that part.

Anita Brick: Oh no, that's OK. But I think the point that you made is a good one because there were other questions around Wall Street, but it's a personal decision. Is he disloyal …, or what should he do?

Timothy Butler: No, it's not a question of loyalty. In a situation like this, everyone recognizes what's going on. The banking environment right now is an emergency situation. How long has he been with his current employer?

Anita Brick: For quite a few years.

Timothy Butler: Oh, then it's not an issue at all. Even if there weren't this situation, someone in IT who had been several years with an organization looking for the next opportunity, the next challenge, that would be perfectly acceptable.

Anita Brick: On the other side. And I thought this was a very interesting question. Someone said that they've had a career on Wall Street. They don't necessarily want to continue that career, even if the environment supported that. But now, when this person submits a resume or has conversations with people, people are just kind of disgusted and don't really appreciate that previous experience, because in a sense, they're … maybe on a mini level, blaming him for some of the problems.

Timothy Butler: Just because he was … working for an investment bank?

Anita Brick: For an investment bank.

Timothy Butler: And what type of environments is he applying to?

Anita Brick: Well, he's looking at taking that same experience and taking it inside a corporation to do some of the same type of work … finance … it could be a variety of things, but people are just—they're not really blaming him, but he feels like they are.

Timothy Butler: Well, and this is a situation where there is very little he can do about that. I mean, there is this attitude that's out there in the general public now. There's a lot of anger at Wall Street—Wall Street is this, you know, monolithic, faceless entity that has caused great suffering and pain. I would hope that if this individual persists, you know, he will find interviewers who are able to look beyond that.

I mean, it's discouraging to feel like one's being stereotyped. It always is.But the only advice I would offer is there's nothing he can do about whatever stereotype is being attached to people who work on Wall Street. What he can do is simply persist and to emphasize the talents and skills he brings.

You know he's facing a situation, if he's changing industries, where the issue is transferability of skills. So he has to demonstrate that the skills he's bringing to this new organization, although he may not have worked in that particular industry, that the skills he brings are highly valuable. So he has to give examples of his ability to be a strong project manager, examples of his ability to be a solid business analyst and make that case very strongly.

Anita Brick: Obviously not to get defensive.

Timothy Butler: Always, always, always. Do not get to … do not try to defend Wall Street.

Anita Brick: But he can't do that. It would be impossible.

Timothy Butler: It's not his job to defend Wall Street.

Anita Brick: No, you're right, you're right.

Timothy Butler: He shouldn't cast himself in that role.

Anita Brick: Good point. So there was someone else who went to a smaller company, was brought in to be the next generation of leadership. It looked like that was going to happen in a relatively short period of time, a few years. And now it looks like the senior management is pretty entrenched and looks like it could be another 5 to 7 years, right?

He loves the job, and the compensation is great. And so when he goes out to explore new opportunities—because he really does want to make a move—people really question why would he leave a job that he loves where he's well compensated? And how does he explain that people are just kind of holding things up? Because obviously that wouldn't sit well.

Timothy Butler: The framework, both for his own thinking and for articulating his situation … other people should be his vision for learning. In other words, where does he want to be? What does he want his life to be like in three years? What does that mean in terms of the types of roles he wants? What does it mean in terms of the type of organizational cultures that are optimal for him?

What does it mean in terms of the broader context of life and work? He should be thinking deeply about that and imagining as deeply as possible what he wants. But then he should also be thinking about the knowledge and experience that he needs to acquire in order to move more closely to that vision. In other words, what does he need to learn and to experience in order to be hired into his vision?

That's what he should have before him. And if he holds that before him, then it'll be easier to make decisions. Like even though I'm not in the roles I want to be in this job, am I still learning towards that vision?

Anita Brick: Good point.

Timothy Butler: If the answer is not, then it's very legitimate for him to be looking. And when the question comes up, well, why are you doing this? He can present his learning framework as a way of articulating the decisions that he's making. He very much enjoys his role, he enjoys the people, he enjoys the company. He's looking for challenges, and he's looking for opportunities to learn and be challenged. That may not be available in his current environment.

Anita Brick: That's a really good point and that takes away anything about them, right? Not providing what they said they were going to provide right about him and his goals for the future.

Timothy Butler: You never … I should never say never, but operationally, never do you get into negative comments about a current employer.

Anita Brick: Oh yeah.

Timothy Butler: You don't want to externalize a problem situation and point the finger. That's a no-win posture to take.

Anita Brick: I’ll transition from this a little bit. So he's very happy in his job. And then there is a current evening student who's been in a career for about 15 years. And the career has been shrinking and shrinking and shrinking the whole industry. The whole function he's in is shrinking. When someone—and he's been doing it for 15 years, since he was in his late 20s. He's wondering, is it even possible to bounce back from this, or will he be sort of pegged in this dead industry, and how does he move ahead?

Timothy Butler: What I would counsel him to do is not think of the problem in terms of industry, but to think of it in terms of function. This is a mistake I see a number of people make. They say, gee, I'm labeled as this. For whatever reason, doing this is no longer viable or less desirable. And now I'm stuck because I'm in this industry.

Well, what your student—and excuse me, your alum needs to do ....

Anita Brick: Actually, this is a student.

Timothy Butler: This is a student?

Anita Brick: Yep.

Timothy Butler: He has to think about functionally. So what have I done for the past 15 years? Break it down into skill set, skill areas, areas of knowledge, things that you've been doing, and ask the question: This skill set, these areas of knowledge. How do they transfer outside of this industry and increasingly talk to other people and talk to oneself about my functional experience knowledge rather than my industry label?

That's the type of analysis he should be doing for himself and for others. What this requires is really understanding functional roles in industries that are close to, but not the same as, his current industry. So if he places his current industry at the center of a target, what is the first concentric circle around the center of that target in terms of industry areas that require similar functional skills and abilities?

And he should be looking within that realm and being able to articulate how he brings skills and experience and knowledge from his current industry role.

Anita Brick: Interesting. Another student has been in a field for a long time, and the field that he's in actually is growing, but he doesn't really like it. He’s not happy with it. He's been in accounting and finance for seven years. He's comfortable and doing the job, but he's never really felt comfortable in the role. He doesn't particularly like it.

I mean, what he really loves is being the center and the key expert in an area. And trying to decide: is that an ego thing or something he should make a decision about his entire career on?

Timothy Butler: This is a situation, Anita, that has broad application. This is the analysis-of-unhappiness question, and this comes up with great frequency. If someone's unhappy and they think they know why, but do they really know why? Why are you dissatisfied? Is there a competency issue? Are your skills OK? But not great so that you are never really standing out, never really getting that great feedback from the environment because you have exceptional skills?

That can be one reason. Another reason could be cultural. Your skills are very good, but there's just a mismatch between the type of people around you and your personality style, between just the values and the general atmosphere of the organization and the values and atmosphere in which you thrive the most. So there could be a cultural issue here.

There could be an issue that has to do with learning and with growth. Yes, your skills are good. Yes, the culture is OK, but the challenges are no longer there. You don't feel like you're acquiring new skills and knowledge. You want to be stretched and you don't see how that's going to happen. Another area simply might be factors outside of the work setting altogether that are really feeding your unhappiness, and you're misinterpreting it or attributing it to the work environment.

So there's a situation or relationship, or there's just a difficulty that could be a situation, a health situation involving depression, involving an anxiety disorder in which you're just not feeling good and you're not feeling good when you're at work and when you're not at work, but you look to work as the thing that you'd like to change.

I've just listed four different reasons for which one might be unhappy with the situation. And the first step is accurate diagnosis. Why am I really dissatisfied? Because what you do about it would be different in each of those four cases.

Anita Brick: I think it takes a lot of courage to do that, because you might uncover something that might, in the short term, make you even more unhappy.

Timothy Butler: Well, it takes some courage. Yeah. So it takes being honest with oneself. To be honest with you, Anita, it's often difficult to do because when we're unhappy, we often experience that as a global experience. Think about a time that we all have when you've been down, you know, for a period of days and you're not feeling great, and someone says, so why aren’t you feeling very well?

I've noticed you've really been down, you've been negative, you've been unhappy. Why? That's often a tough question to ask because it just feels like it's global and permeates everything. But that's the work that has to be done. And often this is a situation where a coach can really be helpful in systematically going at it: OK, let's really get down to this.

Let's break this down. When was the last time you were feeling connected and engaged and excited? Let's go back to then. OK. What was going on then? What were you doing? What atmospheres were you in? What was going on in your life outside of work? Now let's start to step it forward. When did it start to shift from that?

When could you first perceive a shift? What was that about? I mean, there are ways to systematically go at this diagnosis issue, but often it requires some outside help.

Anita Brick: And I think that, you know, you can also sometimes look at the— like you said, you can look at these— We talk about this a lot in programming, this slow experience where your skills and the challenges at hand are somewhat evenly matched, where there's some stretch, but not to the point where you're suffering, but you can identify the skills you like using and the passions, and also the context.

But if there is— obviously if there's something that is more emotional to talk to a counselor, right?

Timothy Butler: Yes.

Anita Brick: Someone else—as he put it, he said: Tim, I've taken a very long detour. And he said that he is 52 and has been involved in typical MBA stuff like real estate, finance, consulting, and although it was never a great fit, the challenges were interesting and the money was good. And now he's looking for a big change and wants to know: Is that even possible? Will his age even allow that? And what would be some things he could do?

Timothy Butler: Two responses: Yes, it's possible, but there's some work to be done. The biggest piece of work is how well do you know what it is that you want, what it is that you need, what it is that will represent for you a stretch or a challenge or a growth experience? For most people, that's what's stopping them. In situations like this, they've been in a position for a long period of time.

They feel like they're not growing. But when you really ask some very specific questions, they have a hard time saying, well, just what is it that you want? So the first step is getting clear on that. What is your vision? Can you give me examples of people who are doing the type of work that would represent what you want to move toward?

That's the essential first piece of work, because if you can do that, then you can begin to boil that down to a mission statement. You can begin to boil that down to an elevator pitch, something that you could tell in 20 seconds to someone in an elevator. Well, I understand you are on the job search. What are you looking for?

That answer should be given to somebody in 20 seconds. That communicates great clarity and great focus. So I don't know the particulars of this individual you're talking about, but my hunch would be that he or she is stuck at that place, because once you do that work, then the next steps tend to fall into place. Not that they're necessarily easy; not that there aren't obstacles, particularly in a difficult economy; but when you have that focus, when you have that clarity, then you know where to look. You know who to ask for, what type of help.

Anita Brick: It's a good point. And if you are maybe considering a lot of things, doing that work will help you filter and prioritize which paths you may want to pursue.

Timothy Butler: Well, you know, if you're thinking that you might be doing a lot of things, that's a problem. Because if you keep bouncing back and forth in fits and starts saying, I'll look into this, look into this, I'll look into that, maybe this maybe that—that can eat up time and energy rather quickly. Clarity is about getting a sense of hierarchy.

Yes, there may be 3 or 4 things that might be interesting. Which is the one that is at the top of the list? And what’s second? And where are you going to spend your time and your energy in developing opportunities?

Anita Brick: Those are very insightful points. Couple of final questions, if we have a few more minutes.

Timothy Butler: Sure.

Anita Brick: In transition, one of the things that is very challenging, especially if you're doing a good job in your current role—people don't like people to leave that are actually really performing well. And so as part of an exit strategy, say the first question is as you exit, how do you do it graciously so that you really not just retain a superficial relationship, you can continue to have it grow?

Timothy Butler: The first thing you do is you take the perspective of your boss—the situation your exit puts him or her in, the situation that your exit puts the organization in—and you really try to be thoughtful and think about that. What every organization wants is as much lead time as possible. So you need to think about how much lead time can I maximally give, you know, without compromising my own situation, and then maximize that.

So tell the organization, tell your boss, what your plans are as early as you reasonably can, and then be very open about why you're leaving. And the situation described, Anita, is one in which there are good feelings about the organization; good feelings about one's relationships there—so make that crystal clear. Talk about how difficult a choice this was and how much you have enjoyed your work and enjoyed working for this person, enjoyed the affiliation with your colleagues.

Make that abundantly clear and also be very explicit about your wish to stay in touch and to keep the connections that you value there at the organization and actually do it.

Anita Brick: Actually do stay in touch.

Timothy Butler: Absolutely, yes.

Anita Brick: And then what if someone said that their social capital was diminishing because people were retiring?

Timothy Butler: People were … other people.

Anita Brick: Other people were retiring. And so he or she wanted to know, what could you do to refresh that?

Timothy Butler: That's something that you should have started on, you know, a number of years before …. If your whole network is people that are your age or older, that's an issue.

Anita Brick: That's true.

Timothy Butler: So the first question would be, how did that situation get to where it is now? But let's say it is where it is now. Then what you need to do is simply push forward.

I mean, you’ve got to start joining organizations, becoming part of networks, making opportunities to meet people who are just moving into the ranks of decision-makers in the organization or in other organizations in your industry. You've just got to go out and start doing those things that you should have been doing five years ago and start now, and you've got some catchup, that's for sure. But you don't have any alternative.

Anita Brick: You’ve got a point there. Good point. So just as a final wrap-up question, what advice would you give to an MBA student or alum who maybe is in the midst of that career impasse, where it feels permanent, but we know it's not? What are some small practical steps that people could take?

Timothy Butler: OK, my answer is going to have to be general because it's kind of a general question.

Anita Brick: That's fine. So let's say that the big thing is that they're stuck. And coupled with that, they're discouraged. And so how do they get encouraged again so that they can move ahead?

Timothy Butler: What they need to do is to get back in touch with what matters, OK? They need to get back in touch with that wellspring of motivation that's always been there for them. What did work mean for them two years ago? What did work mean for them five years ago? What was their vision of the future two years ago? What was their vision of the future five years ago?

There may be change in these things. And so another question to ask is, OK, is my vision changing now? I'm x years old, not x minus 10 years old. How are things different? How does this affect where I want to be 3 to 5 years in the future? Where do I really want to be 3 to 5 years in the future?

What type of challenges do I want to be facing? You know, what type of environments do I want to be in? What type of roles will I find interesting and within the scope of my ability? These are the first questions to ask when you feel like “I'm stuck. I thought I was going to move forward here. I can't move forward. I am discouraged, I just feel like there's a roadblock in front of me.”

That's the time to say, “There's a roadblock in front of me. Where was this road going in the first place? And because there's a roadblock here, let me think about what the destination is. Maybe that is a roadblock, and I need to find an alternative route around it. Or maybe where I'm going on this trip is altered, and that's not a roadblock at all.”

So the courage that's required there is the ability to say, “OK, there is clearly a roadblock. I'm going to give myself permission not to frenetically try to grab something or correct the situation or make things feel better. I'm going to just allow the situation to develop. I'm going to sink deeper into this attitude of uncertainty and not knowing, so I can ask the deeper question, what is it that I want to be right now?:

Anita Brick: That's a scary thing to do.

Timothy Butler: It is a scary thing to do. That's the necessary first step is to sink down deeper into that place of unknowing and uncertainty. So you can ask that question, OK, now I'm no longer 32. I'm 42, I'm 52, I'm 62. Where are things going? What needs to happen next? Because this is a question that needs to be answered, not just cognitively, not just with using that MBA analytical mind, but using all types of data of the self.

It has to be answered with the feeling center. With the intuitive center. It has to be answered, yes, cognitively as well. It has to take stock of the important people around you. It has to take stock of your physical condition, your health. And an answer has to well up from a place that takes all of this type of data before you decide that, yes, this is what I want now, and this is what it would mean to move forward.

Anita Brick: Wow, it's a great place to start and really appreciate your taking the time. Yeah, very, very good insights and lots of things for us to think about. So thank you so much.

Timothy Butler: It's been my pleasure.

Anita Brick: And thank you all for listening. This is Anita Brick with CareerCast at the Chicago GSB. Keep advancing.