Excelling in Your Job Search

Anita Brick: Hi, this is Anita Brick, and welcome to CareerCast at Chicago Booth to help you advance in your career. Today we're delighted to be speaking to Laura Dodd. And when she graduated from college, she wasn't sure what she wanted to be when she grew up and found out that a lot of her peers felt the same way. So she started some research that landed her in the offices of industry leaders like economist Jeffrey Sachs, Georgia Congressman John Lewis, and CEO of Mountain Hardwear Topher Gaylord. Their lessons learned from those victories and the bruises they collected along the way became her book, Dig This Gig.

Laura Dodd: Yes.

Anita Brick: You saw there were a lot of questions. This is a little bit of a mystery to people, maybe, who are close to graduation. People who graduated a long time ago. You could tell from some of the questions. So if we could start from all the research that you did. What do you believe in today's market are key initial steps in a successful job search?

Laura Dodd: No matter where you are, if you're finishing up your MBA or you graduated a long time ago and you're in a job that you're trying to pivot out of, don't wait. Never underestimate how long it takes to find a new job. By that, I mean you constantly cultivate these relationships, stay in touch with people when you don't necessarily need something.

So I think that is a key takeaway. Just check in with colleagues or former classmates and keep abreast of what people are doing. That's one thing. And another takeaway I learned while reporting on this career pursuit in any field is, find a mentor. Find two mentors. Find three mentors. Find as many as you can and be on the lookout for those who have graduated, maybe a long time ago.

There's something that—I was just reading an article about this recently, what they're calling reverse mentoring, which is kind of a neat idea. It's a great idea. You can learn something from someone half your age; you can learn something from someone twice your age. There's opportunities to network, and I use that word carefully. It can be kind of a squirmy word, but cultivate these mentors who can even be much younger than you. What do you think about reverse mentoring?

Anita Brick: Oh, I think it's a great idea, and I see it a lot. You're seeing it in very high levels in an organization where a CEO might be reverse mentored by a brand new MBA, by a brand new undergrad. I think it keeps things fresh, and it brings a new perspective, and everybody gains. I think it's a great idea. I'm glad you brought it up.

Laura Dodd: Yeah, and you learn so much in terms of this whole social networking push that every industry and every company is really trying to get their head around. Everyone brings something to the table.

Anita Brick: And that's a really interesting point, because I think sometimes when people are in a job search, it's very easy to get caught up in what they don't have rather than what they do. And I think your point is really well taken, because there's somebody out there who needs what you have, whether it is knowledge or experience or perspective.

Laura Dodd: Absolutely. If you are a pro at social networking, what do you bring to the table? Put that first and foremost. And it's really easy to, in all aspects of life, focus on what we don't have. But like you said, take a minute and give yourself a pat on the back because you actually know more than you think you do.

Anita Brick: This point being, one of the weekend students said, I'm in the midst of a job search and feel like there's so many things out there that are out of my control. The market's not great. There's just so many things. What would you recommend that I can do to get some control over my search? And then there was a …

Laura Dodd: HELP! All caps. Exclamation, exclamation. Well, first of all, to that student I want to say I hear you. It is rocky out there. When things feel out of control, a sense of helplessness, and you're disorganized. And this whole sense that gloom is a cloud over this job search. I would encourage that student to look at it another way, which is that your job search does not control you.

You are in control of your job search. You have to be militant about it. I interview all these people, write stuff down. I cannot emphasize enough: Jot down notes. And not just up and down the napkins. Break open that Excel grid and plot this like you would anything else. You have to figure out where you want to land, and then you militantly plot the steps.

You have to get there in a way that will help chip away at this sense of helplessness and out of control, because all of a sudden, it's not this blank page phobia that so many of us have. Something is written down and then it becomes a plan. And soon a plan gets fleshed out and all of a sudden you're seeing all of these contacts you do have and their phone numbers and all of this web starts to grow. And so what felt like a helpless, out of control job search all of a sudden became hopefully would be a very manageable process.

Anita Brick: It's a good point. If anyone listening would like us to send—there's a job search checklist that we have. We also have, because you mentioned Excel, we have an Excel spreadsheet that allows people to aggregate their research, aggregate their contacts and all of that into one place. And we're happy to—send an email to BoothWorks@ChicagoBooth.edu and we'll send it on right away.

I think you're absolutely right. Getting organized is very important. Writing it down, it's something that people just think, yeah, I'll get to it. I'll remember it in my head. And I think that creates more of that out of control feeling.

Laura Dodd: Oh my gosh, you will remember it. It's not like, yeah, you're right. I say to all and you'll lose that piece of paper. You're going to lose everything you plotted out, and you have columns for who you want to speak to, so you know who can hook you up with them, their phone number, the contact, the status report just in one column saying, OK, I reached out to someone.

So on January 2nd, you can see this register of contacts because soon you're going to have two balls in the air and then you're going to have six, and then you're going to have 12. And you're going to need to update all of them. I think it's a key maneuver when you feel this sense of out of control.

Anita Brick: Very good points because having control also gives you more confidence.

Laura Dodd: Oh gosh. Huge. And confidence is the secret ingredient to so much in life. And feeling in control helps boost that.

Anita Brick: There was another question from another weekend student: How do you know you're even pursuing the right job? And he said, this may be a little outside of the topic, but if you have any insights, I would appreciate your thoughts.

Laura Dodd: This was one of my actually favorite questions that the students and alumni pitched, because it really hits into the soul of why we go through all this stuff, which is we do these Excel grids, we do this networking, and we spend 40 and 50, 60 hours at the office because it's a part of who we are. So how do you know you're going after the right job is really a very personal, poignant question.

I was thinking about it, and I took some notes. One first impression: take notes while you're going through this application process and you're interviewing, observe how the interviewer and the culture of the company, how they treat you, are they getting back in a reasonable amount of time? So how do you feel going into that place if it's a startup, if it's at a Fortune 500 or whatever, can you see yourself there every day?

Can you meet those potential coworkers and picture yourself there? Because like we've talked about so many times, you're spending a huge amount of time at this company and with these people. In my own experience, I can kind of relate to this, because if you're interviewing at two or three or four spots, how they work with you during the application process, I think it's a safe bet—and I wonder what you think—it’s a spotlight into how they're going to behave and work with you during the real job. You know, you don't want to be strung along. Are they getting back to you?

I’m a big believer that the job search is a two-way street. The power equilibrium, you know, it's kind of tilted sometimes for the employer because you're in the interview and you're in the hot seat. I really believe that going into this is a two-way street, and you have to consider if it feels right and if you can see yourself there.

Anita Brick: I agree because they're going to treat you better once they decide they want you to join their firm than they will at any other time. You have the most leverage at that point. And I think that probably in addition to culture, what is this job going to do for you? How is it going to position you, both now and into the future? But I think your point is very well taken, because if they're sloppy going in, if they don't treat you with respect going in, it's really unlikely that they're going to get better.

Laura Dodd: Absolutely. You're getting a first impression of them just as they are of you. There's not going to be some miraculous change once you get inside. These are all cues that you take along this, you know, however long you're interviewing, it could be a couple of weeks. It could be months.

And I think your point is equally well taken and that there are different careers along the way. You might have two or three or four of them. And how does this particular job play into that grand plan? And, you know, thinking long term, it might help this student and the other students decide if this is the right job for them. And one note is that, you know, no job has to last forever. No job will last forever. So if this is something you can see as part of a stepping stone to springboard, then that's part of your calculation.

Anita Brick: Good point. An evening student wanted to talk about … I think this is a little bit of a slippery slope, but I understand where it's coming from because I want to do the job search right. What are some things to avoid when embarking on a job search?

Laura Dodd: I give this student an A because they've got the right mentality about it going in. You know, it's obvious that this person knows—and of course, no mistakes in your resumé. Wear the right suit to your interview. Don't lie. All of these things. But they're also some more nuanced mistakes when you're embarking on a job search.

I think some people don't give themselves enough credit in kind of talking about what we open with, which is, you know more than you think you do, and you bring more to the table than you think you do. So don't assume anything is out of reach. Do you want to work at Google? Do you want to work at Apple?

Make this wish list. It might not have been this particular next job, and it could. Casting a wide net when you're starting this job search is the number one and then chipping away. But how to get there? In my research and reporting on this, posting to job boards hoping someone comes across it when they're scrolling hundreds of submissions, it just doesn't work. Honestly. Now it's such a tailored process. It's identifying companies or places you want to work, then plotting how you could contribute to that company, and then convincing them that you are the hire they need. You have to be—again, I like the word militant about it because you can't just send out your resume to outer space and hope someone's going to catch it.

So, you know, on this job search, I think that's another thing to avoid if you can and you should be able to, is that kind of plastering of your resume. I prefer and practice and speak to other folks who do this, much more crosshairs. What's your crosshairs on a target and chip away until you are within reach? Does that make sense?

Anita Brick: That does make sense. I think you're saying two different things, but that they're very complementary. One is, be open-minded as to what you embark on when you choose it, to have a broad enough perspective that you choose things that give you more than one target. At the same time, it's really crucial to be able to know what your top priorities are, to know what your dream companies are so that you can put in time and effort.

Because if you spend a lot of time in general, but a little bit of time on a whole bunch of different things, you probably won't be effective. So know what the priorities are. Allocate time accordingly, but have a broad enough perspective so that you don't miss anything. There was another evening student who said, I'm planning on a career move when I finish my MBA in 15 months. What are some things you've learned in your research that can be helpful as I start planning now?

Laura Dodd: Huge kudos to this student; 15 months is a great lead time. It gives this student enough time to identify where he wants to land after graduating. It gives him time to plot our his strategy about how to approach these potential companies. For instance, he could do a schedule. First month: identify and research, four weeks or six weeks, and then for the next six weeks, reach out, kind of circle in and figure out people that he knows that work at these companies and start the networking process.

And that takes weeks. And before you know it, you're going to be 6 or 7 months in with a huge networking opportunity. And when you're talking to these folks who you're asking for career advice and how to maybe get a foot in the door at this company, you're going to have ways to demonstrate that you've listened to their advice.

Your school, Booth, has this incredible entrepreneur focus and encouragement. And I was reading, actually, a story of an alumni named Matt Maloney, among other names. He started Grubhub. If someone wanted to work at Grubhub or start in the startup world, it would be fantastic 15 months out to identify these folks and reach out to that network. You know, the Grubhub example of where he sees himself in 15 months, how this applicant could help service Grubhub if they're expanding to 12 more cities, 15 more cities, you really need to tailor and position yourself as someone who they need.

And it takes an incredible amount of time. And by the time the student graduates, he will have done so much research and have such a Rolodex of people within these target companies. One of the lessons I learned from this whole experience here in New York is, I wish I had started much sooner. Again, never underestimate how long the stuff takes. When you're asking someone for coffee, it takes two weeks to find a 15- to 20-minute window. Just starting sooner is a huge, huge step up. So the student is ahead of the game, I think. What are your thoughts?

Anita Brick: Oh, I think you're absolutely right. I think one thing that you said that I think has changed in the last several years is that when you use Grubhub as an example, you weren't saying, all right, I want to work at this company and you should find a place for me. You are saying something very different. You were developing a compelling story of the value that you could add going in.

In a sense, it's almost … A lot of people talk about this— whether you're an entrepreneur or you work for a multinational company, when you're thinking about how can you solve problems, how can you bring a solution to something that's going to add value? I think that was a very important distinction that you made, because that whole approach is way more successful than looking for a job, hoping that it's going to add to you, rather than you're having the perspective of what you're going to add to the organization.

Laura Dodd: One story that I think you'll appreciate, and this addresses a lot of the questions that the students and alumni have. I wrote a freelance story for the Wall Street Journal for their career website, and I spoke and interviewed this young woman who was in Vancouver. She was on the job hunt and it wasn't going well. It was one or two months in, no leads, extremely discouraging.

And she said, OK, enough, I have to take a step back. And she kind of employed all of these things that we're talking about. So where do I want to be? What can I do? I don't know—where do I want to apply those skills and who does that? She had been working in professional presentations—a lot of these companies have these kind of ’90s, very informative, fun presentations about what the company does. OK, so there she is. And she identified three locations that she would like to be in, San Francisco being one of them. So she did her research. She found companies. This one company in San Francisco called SlideRocket had a software presentation company. So she set her crosshairs on that.

Paper and print resumes, it’s not cutting it. I mean, because they literally stack up there. So 2011, if you will. And so she thought about and she took a cue from the actual company, why not make a presentation, a slideshow, use that as my resume, and I won't give too much of a spoiler view of each answer where she got the job, but she took two weeks and brainstormed and designed this presentation, and she tweeted this to the CEO.

So the CEO is in New York boarding a plane. He gets this direct message from this candidate, and she said, I want to work for SlideRocket. Here's my presentation resume. He opens it. He is so wowed he can't write back fast enough. But they're closing the doors. So six hours later, he lands in San Francisco, direct messages, says we got to talk, what’s your number? They connect; a week later, she’s flown in for an interview and now she is living in San Francisco working for this company. And it's a great example about taking a step back, recalibrating and saying, where do I want to be? What do I know how to do? And how do I marry those two things?

I think it really impressed, obviously, the CEO of this company and now, in fact, the company has started a whole template for presentations called the Presume. So when people want to go off script, so to speak, and augment and supplement their paper resume, which, you know, it's not yet, you know, it is still an important key to this whole career hunt, but it's not enough.

If you really want to wow someone, you have to show and demonstrate that you know the product and you know the company and you know how to bring something to the table. So that's just a fun example that I came across recently for a way to really set yourself apart.

Anita Brick: Well, I love that. And it kind of dovetails with one of the other questions about social media. Obviously a PowerPoint presentation isn't social media, but tweeting it, tweeting the message to the CEO is a pretty bold thing to do, but I think it says a lot about where things are today, that there's so much access to so many people at different levels. The access isn't the advantage anymore, it's part of the advantage. But creating this Presume, I love that; that's wonderful. And actually doing it in a way that makes sense. It totally works. There was an alum. She was a student at the time who wanted to make a fairly substantial career change, and she kept getting shot down, and she was losing motivation, and she was beside herself because nothing was happening.

But she did get an interview, and at the end of the interview, she actually came—it was a few blocks from here—she came to my office and she started to cry. She felt like she had completely blown it. She just felt that the people around her were just so much more qualified. But she did make it past the first round and they said, go put together a presentation for it.

This was a consumer goods firm. Go put together a presentation if you're selling this personal care product to adolescent boys between 13 and 19. Rather than just doing it theoretically, she went to a college campus and she interviewed people. She recorded it on video. She went way beyond what most people would do. And she thought everybody was doing this.

But she was the one who really created this compelling presence because she did her research, not just the research, the secondary research, but she did primary research. She talked to people, she interviewed them and created this magnificent package which landed her the job. And so they were so surprised because she beat out people who had considerably more experience. Even though she was experienced, it wasn't in the field she was targeting.

Laura Dodd: It was a great idea. You know, I love that … it's not that experience can work against you, you know? Of course it's great to have experience. But I like her perspective that she came in with this fresh energy and she said, OK, let's do this a little differently. And she was a foot soldier, and she went to the campus and she talked to the people she was trying to sell this consumer product to.

Anita Brick: Between her example and your example, are there any other forms of social media—we talked about Twitter a little bit. Are there any that you think are really prominent right now that people are leveraging in a good way or in an effective way for their job search?

Laura Dodd: In terms of social media, of course, Twitter and Facebook, I think they're incredible tools that you can use in a very creative way.

Anita Brick: What about LinkedIn? A lot of our students and alumni use Facebook for things more personal. They use LinkedIn for things more professional. How does that fall into what you're seeing today?

Laura Dodd: I agree, I think LinkedIn is, of course, a more professional platform, and you have to keep it professional just because you're three connections away from the CEO of Amazon. If you are three or four, that does not mean you can say, hey, I'm available for work. I think it's an incredible tool to see who is where and watching these other CEOs and other executives how their career trajectory is evolving. So you know who left GE and you know who's joined Apple. And it's an incredible tool to both showcase your own resume, but also keep close tabs on those executives that are in your resume.

Anita Brick: There you go. To switch gears a little bit. There was an Exec MBA student, and this is a slightly different issue again. So thinking ahead, planning ahead, she said I'm considering taking a year to break to have a second child, but I'm concerned about the impact this break is going to have on my job search when I'm ready to return.

Do you have any advice on what steps to take to make the job search after that kind of a break go a little smoother? So it sounds like the things that she should do now, and maybe things that she should do while she's taking the break and things that she should do afterwards, what would you advise her?

Laura Dodd: Exactly. So it's a three-stage thing. She is thinking about having a child now, it's to take a couple of years off and then she's going to reenter the workplace eventually. And one thing I wouldn't say is don't disappear. Don't drop off the grid if and when this woman decides to take a break. Right now, I think it's—depending on where she wants to do, if she wants to come back in the same industry or if she's going to do kind of a career pivot.

I think right now it's important to do the best—of course, leave on the best note ever. If she's planning to leave in six months, really wow them. Take these six months and leave the greatest lasting impression you can. And then when this break does come for 1 or 2 years, like I said, don't drop off the grid.

Keep those skills. Keep informed. If you're in the engineering field, consider adding a magazine subscription so that you're staying informed and you can articulate and you can converse about who's what and what's where. And because when you do come back two years and you're getting back into that pool, not like you have to catch up for two years.

Don't put yourself in a position where you have to catch up in terms of skills, because you will be able to network as much. But I think, and I'm curious as to your advice as well, but don't disappear, and don't go slack on your skills, and come back just as lean, mean and strong into the workplace as being just as much of an asset if you do it wisely.

Anita Brick: I agree with you. I think that having those first two stages where you are, I think it's brilliant. You know what you said, do a great job. If you're already doing a great job, just crank it up a little bit more. And then secondly, as you said, stay on the grid, make time. I know it's difficult to do that, but make the time to read, maybe to take some classes.

Not that you have tons of time as you're taking that kind of break, but stay in touch, stay relevant, and have conversations with people who are in your field or the field that you're pivoting into, as you said. And then part three, when you go back in, if the relationships are still fresh, your experience, your skills and knowledge are still fresh and all of that, it should be smoother if you do those first two steps. I think you're absolutely on target.

Laura Dodd: I think the third step will be—There won't be a third step, like getting back into the workforce will be so painful if you don't take these first two.

Anita Brick: Oh no question. Oh, and I would also say staffing like on your home computer system, make sure that you have the most I mean it may seem trivial, have the most current software right now. It's not another barrier, not even if you land the job, you're not going to be catching up. You're just going to be going in. If you have time for a couple more questions?

Laura Dodd: Yeah, this is fun. Please.

Anita Brick: Good, good. Well, an alum said I've been at the job search for quite some time and I'm losing motivation. What suggestions do you have for someone like me who needs a jumpstart?

Laura Dodd: I like this question too, because it really gets at how personal the job search is. I think maybe my first piece of advice, and I don't know if you disagree with this, but take a break. No one can job search for 12 hours a day. Ten, 12, 14 hours a day. I couldn't write 12 hours a day when I was writing the book.

You have to break up your day. Devote 9 to 12 for the job hunt, then take lunch, get some exercise, come back for three hours. There's no sense of like. The first mental question from the beginning is there's a sense of out of control. And that's when you are just sitting at your laptop on these job boards. It's just the sense of who's controlling who here.

Right? So in order for a jump start, I really would say take a day off. I mean, heck, take two days off, go crazy. Like the examples we were talking about before. I mean, this young woman in Vancouver, it wasn't working for six weeks, two months, three months. It was. Can we say the word? I mean, it's just depressing and it gets discouraging.

And sure, it seeps into the rest of your behavior. I mean, you probably said, you know, it can spiral. But the point is, recalibrate. So take two days off. Think, really think about and try to incorporate what we've been talking about. Like where do you want to be again. You know more than you think you know.

And you have incredible things to contribute. Now it's just a matter of highlighting, putting a spotlight on those and what you enjoy doing and planning this, that you're in charge of this, you know, you're not some innocent bystander. This is your life. And plot it like you would if you were training for a marathon. You know, one mile at 12 minutes a time, you train. It really is training. What do you … what are your thoughts?

Anita Brick: I think you're right. I think taking a break is actually a great idea. And then I think it's also really helpful to not be doing it alone. One of the things that we did here, when the market imploded in ’09 because of circumstances, we actually set up a place where alumni and students who were local could go and have a place to go.

There was a conference room there and people would talk to one another. We see that even here we have a good center. There's a library and people will come and people who are in a job search, they might come, they might see the same people, you know, for a while, and they'll get to know each other and they'll support one another.

And I think it's certainly true when people are going to school full time and they're working together as they're recruiting, but it applies to students who had been working full time or are alumni. So the support piece seems to be a really crucial component. And I think the other part is don't apologize. Part of what gets depressing is when people say, what are you doing?

And if your work is very important to you, like it is for many people, and you can say, well, I'm in transition, a lot of people will just walk away and they won't engage with you. Part of it is some people are like, well, you know, you're not working. Can't be helpful to me. Other people just don't want to be around someone who's negative.

But I work with people who are in a job search. They've established those anchors that help them have some structure around their day. They tend to look for the things that are working and they seem to accelerate their progress. There is someone that did a career test two years ago. It was in January 2010. He gave an example of a study that was done at the University of Texas at UT Austin, and they took a group of very senior people who are very similar or a similar amount of work experience, etc., etc. background.

And they broke down into three groups. Group number one just did all the things that you typically do. You know, they got resume advice and interview advice, you know, etc., etc. and then the second group did all that, plus they did some time management like you were talking about earlier, and the third group did all of those things and they journaled, they debriefed every day.

So they spent 30 minutes a day writing about what worked, what didn't work, if they were upset. Like the person who asked, he said that he's getting very discouraged. They just wrote it all out. Now. The study lasted, I think, about four months. At the end of four months, group one and two, 18% of the people in those groups had job offers.

By the way, they all had the same number of interviews. The group that journaled or debriefed every day for 30 minutes, 58% of their group had jobs. They all had the same number of interviews. So I think you're right. I mean, take a break, get structured, do those things, find support. If someone is really discouraged, I throw that other piece in because it seems to have a really powerful impact.

Laura Dodd: I love that example, and I can relate on two instances, just to give another example, which is different to everything. But when writing this book, which is a huge kind of thing that's incredibly intimidating and scary, instead of writing it alone, which I did sometimes in a classroom or in my apartment, which is incredibly isolating, I would go to the Columbia library, and it's just a matter of having other bodies around you, right?

They were working, you know, and I would go and fill my water bottle and I would go over, you know, to see what they're working on. They have this incredibly complicated math set and all it was … it's inspiring. Find a place that inspires you and go there, pack up your laptop and go do the hunt and just be around other people. To your other point, which I think is also interesting, what's the most asked question amongst friends and colleagues?

It's “what do you do?” So when you are in this position that you are in transition or you're looking for work, it's interesting how we derive so much worth from being able to answer that question, right. I work at Morgan Stanley or I work, I'm a teacher. Whatever it is, if you don't have an answer, it's like you don't belong in the conversation.

Which of course we all know is silly, but there is something psychological about not having an answer to that question. So you finished your school commitments, you finished your job commitments. You are a free agent. You are in charge of this. And it goes back to some of these other questions we're talking about. It's like you're in control.

That's how free agency, the landscape, the job landscape, where do I want to be next. And then how do I get there. Not who's got anything available. I'll do whatever. It's very calculated and it's very meticulous. And it's just another way to think about it, being a free agent.

Anita Brick: I think your point really takes us full circle. What you're saying is find those things that give you structure and give you control, which is kind of where we started the conversation. Just to kind of summarize, leave us with some pearls of wisdom. What are three things that an alum, a student listening today could be, and maybe should be, doing beginning right now to help them really excel in their job search? Maybe give me 2 or 3 things.

Laura Dodd: OK. Sure. And I'm going to tell you some of the things that I do myself. So this is not some waxing wisdom that doesn't belong anywhere. It's to write five things down: five goals, five destinations of where you want to land. And even if you are in a job, that's fine and you enjoy it or whatever, but you are eyeing this next move.

Write it down and then, you know, make a list. And who do you know who works at the company? What kind of research background checks can you do? Really circle in and that— and try to maintain your in control attitude. And the second thing part of that is kind of—it's all related, isn’t it?—it’s mentors. Maybe reach out to three people and give yourself a deadline.

By Valentine's Day, OK, which is, I don't know, five or six days away, send three emails to three people. Maybe, you know, a professor that you've been wanting to get in touch with. Maybe an old boss, maybe someone younger, you know, at the company, or a reverse mentor. Try to get that energy flowing, send those emails and try to make connections and meet three people for coffee in the next six weeks. I think that's very doable.

And then from those two things stems confidence. And from confidence stems bold opportunities and from opportunities, well, heck—everything derives from going after opportunities. And then I think the third one was really trying to go off script. The paper resumé is the bare minimum these days. Take a hint from some of the examples we've talked about today and play with some. Brainstorm some ideas about how you could go off script. I think those three are a jumpstart to 2012.

Anita Brick: That's great. Thank you. We really appreciate your writing the book. I enjoyed reading it, actually a lot, and it took a lot of courage to go and talk to the people that you did. Thank you for doing it, and thank you for laying out a path for others to do the same.

Laura Dodd: Thank you and thanks for inviting me. This is great fun, great.

Anita Brick: And Laura, you have a wonderful blog and website at DigThisGig.com. This is Anita Brick with CareerCast at Chicago Booth. Keep advancing.