Unlocking the Best Strategies for a Global Job Search

Anita Brick: Hi, this is Anita Brick. And welcome to CareerCast at Chicago Booth. To help you advance in your career. Today, we're delighted to be speaking with Karl Alleman, who is a Booth alum and managing partner of the Chicago office of the global executive search firm Aegon Center International. Prior to joining Aegon Center, Mr. Alleman was president and CEO of Brown Machine, a leading manufacturer of capital equipment for the plastics industry. Earlier in his career, he was a senior engagement manager at McKinsey and company. Karl, thank you so much. I know you are super busy, so thank you so much for making the time.

Karl Alleman: I need to thank you for letting me be here and joining today. It's a real honor.

Anita Brick: Oh we're excited. So just to get us started, we know that international experience, global assignments are super important. What are the most important things to consider before embarking on a cross-regional search or assignment?

Karl Alleman: Well, it's obviously an important question. And I think, Anita, before I get into the answer to that specific question, let me give you just a backdrop to that. First of all, on Aegon Zehnder, we are one of the largest executive search firms in the world. Our firm was founded 50 years ago in Switzerland. From the very beginning, realized that international presence was going to be critical for our firm.

So we've been in really all the major markets in the world since the 1970s, and the firm was really built on a connectedness throughout the firm. And so a real important focus for us is working on international assignments, truly global assignments. And so I have a lot of experience with that today. You are right to be thinking about how you can gain international experience.

It's just critical and important. Detail related to that is, yeah, international experience. It counts if you are, say, working in your home country and have international responsible parties, but it's so much better to have on the ground experience, if you will. So I actually live in another country, ideally in another region of the world for, I would say at least two years, if not 3 or 4 years, to really get a feel for the culture, immerse yourself in the local business world and develop relationships over there.

It's just a whole nother level of experience. I would say more and more when we do these searches, if somebody is looking for international experience, they're really talking about on the ground, just a little bit of background on why this is such an important topic as somebody begins thinking about, I've only worked in one country, my home country, to this point.

I need some experience in another region. What should I be thinking about? The first thing is to think about the long term. Think about what you want to do with your career? What sort of experiences are going to help get you there? What region of the world, for example, is going to be most important to what you want to do with your career?

What sort of a functional role? What sort of a leadership challenge? To be a bit more holistic and think about what's going to help get you to achieving your goals. Don't just jump at the first international opportunity that comes your way. It needs to be the right fit. The next point, though, isn't just about building your resume or checking that box.

It says, yes, this person has done something international. When you make one of these moves, don't forget you do need to be successful. It's a real challenge going to a different country, working in a different culture where they potentially speak a different language. That's a whole nother challenge. So you really want to be careful, do your due diligence on what is that specific opportunity?

Is it a role where I can be successful? And when we look at placing a candidate in a particular role, you don't want to have too many variables where this person doesn't have relevant experience. If you're making that move, I would suggest make sure that it's within the same industry or an industry that, you know, ideally, it would be even in a function that, you know, so that when you make that move, you're learning can be learning a new country, culture, language, not necessarily learning a new company and a new industry and a new function.

So you really want to set yourself up for success. And then the third thing I would say, sometimes it can be difficult to come home as you're thinking about leaving and taking one of these international assignments, start planting the seeds for how you're going to find your way back. Now, maybe you don't want to find your way back for five years or more. That's fine. But what you don't want to do is go to the other side of the world and lose your ties back to the mothership, if you will, and not be able to find your way back into an attractive opportunity again. Think a bit longer term and already be thinking about your route back.

Anita Brick: So from that, there were a lot of questions that came in, but a few that flow very nicely from that. An evening student said, I am fortunate enough to have found a job in another region, yet I'm very nervous about the move. What are some key things I can do to ensure a successful experience? So you touched on that. Hopefully this person is moving in a similar or the same industry and function. But beyond that, what are some things that you've seen help someone be successful once they get on the ground?

Karl Alleman: That's of course, a very important question. Immerse yourself in the local world, the local culture there. You're going there to be on the ground and to get that experience. Soak it up. Just immerse yourself in that world. Make friends who are locals. I understand, especially for those who are making this move in their 30s or 40s. It's hard to learn a language as we get older, but I've seen some of my candidates and clients who've done it.

You know, one thing that's really been interesting, some of those who have been most successful, they've actually started the language training before they made the move. So they kind of give themselves six months at least to get basic before they go over there. And then, of course, as we know, you know, if you have the basic skills and you're living in that environment and you force yourself to speak the language while you're there, you know you can really move toward becoming fluent.

So immerse yourself and then develop relationships there with your colleagues, with your customers, with your suppliers, with your neighbor, those sort of things. So what they have to learn is what I was just describing. It's about the people who say that what's going to make or break somebody often is whether they invest enough in that area.

Anita Brick: I agree, there was an exotic MBA student who had a question that kind of follows on from that one, and this person said, how do I keep my global network alive as I move from region to region, which I think is maybe, I mean, not maybe. I think it's much more difficult today to keep that whole network going because the people aren't down the street from you. They could be halfway around the world. So what would you advise someone who has those relationships wants to keep them solid? What would you advise that person to do?

Karl Alleman: I'm glad you brought it up because it is so critical. And this goes back to the third point on my first answer about what should you do when you embark on one of these things? Make sure that you have a way back home, back to the headquarters. I would say the most important aspect of that is maintaining and continuing to develop your network back at headquarters, as well as other parts of the world where you have relationships.

I would argue most of the truly successful executives consider building and developing their network to be a critical part of their job. It's not something that's sort of nice to have. You need to always be thinking about how I can develop new relationships. But in this case, the question here is how can I maintain and continue to grow my existing relationships elsewhere?

So I had exposure to people who, when they come back to headquarters, they will already have it planned out, have meetings already set with their old friends, if you will, who they will be able to take to lunch, go to dinner or whatever. So again, it's all just planning ahead to make sure that you can keep those connections warm and actually continue to develop them. I think that's the most important thing.

Anita Brick: Follow on question to that came from an alum. And this person is outside of his home country, and has about a year before returning to corporate headquarters. Are there any other things in addition to reactivating or certainly rejuvenating those relationships? Are there any other specifics in terms of mapping out a strategy for reentry that you would add to that mix?

Karl Alleman: In this case, it's just a little bit of planning ahead. Most people will have some mentors, some key contacts. Also, don't forget that HR is really important in this sort of thing because the key here is you want to find the next position coming back home that also advances your career, that has new responsibilities, learning experience, something that you would enjoy.

You don't want to just take a job. You want that right sort of position number one, people understand your plans, and so don't call HR or call one of your mentors or a former boss, you know, a month or a couple months before you plan to come back. Make sure that they know a year ahead of time or maybe even a little bit more than that, what your timing is and as importantly, what are your interests?

What do you want to do next with your career? What type of role is going to be most attractive, most beneficial to you and to the company so that people can start thinking about it? Because hopefully, as they're managing their own succession plans, they're thinking about these sorts of things a year or two ahead of time. So they have to have you into that puzzle that they're trying to solve on an ongoing basis.

So make sure people know your plans. Make sure you have the contact that is fresh with the decision makers, those who would be, quote, the hiring manager, somebody who could bring you in to work for them as well as human resources, and then just make sure they again know that they know your plans.

Anita Brick: Got it. So let's switch gears a little bit. And there were a few questions around what's really valued and what's really important to companies these days, as we're looking for people to move from one region to another. One question was language and cultural agility seem very important today. I certainly understand that with deep functional and strong relevant experience, what are some things that multinational employers are looking for?

Karl Alleman: It's an important question. Even if somebody's looking for an assignment in their home countries, let's say the company we're talking about is a multinational. Let's say it is for an international assignment. But just remember, again, most of what I'm going to say here would apply to, say, a new growth assignment for you in your home country, but for an international assignment, first of all, sometimes, yes, they are looking for prior international experience.

If you are looking to change companies and you want to move into an international assignment, that will be very difficult if you don't have that experience already. Prior international experience is important. Language skills. Sometimes you have to have it, sometimes you don't. It just depends on the situation, you know? Obviously for a particular role, often the clients are looking for specific industry experience, specific business situation, experience.

That's not a surprise to anybody. The key point I want to make, though, is typically when a company is going to invest in you, to move you to another part of the world, they view you as a high potential because if they're smart, they're reserving those roles for people they're trying to develop who are going to be the future senior most leaders of their company.

So the key thing that they should be assessing you on is potential, potential to grow in responsibility over time, and also for this current assignment, potential to be successful in a region of the world that you likely haven't worked in before. I tell you just a little bit on how we think about potential. It's a pretty interesting and accurate model we have found over the years as we've used this.

So it's really five different things that we look for as we assess potential. I think more and more companies are thinking this way. The first thing is motivation. How much drive does this person have to continually excel, continually move themselves and their business forward? A second point is what we call curiosity. How active is this person's mind in always thinking about what's next?

What's around the corner for themselves, as well as for their business? What are the competitors going to do next, what might be happening on the government side, etc.? Next one is insight, which is, yeah, somewhat. What sort of intellectual horsepower does this person bring? But more importantly, how good are they at taking a lot of information, a lot of complexity, and synthesizing it into some, you know, very straightforward insights and into a plan?

And then the last two pieces, one of them we call engagement, which is how well does this person develop relationships. So it's very much what we've been talking about through this conversation. How well do they engage with people of all types in all types of roles? And then the final piece is determination. When this person gets knocked down, are they able to dust themselves off and get up again and keep climbing that mountain?

It's an interesting model. I think more and more companies are thinking this way. I will mention that one of our colleagues just recently published a book called It's Not the How or the what, but The Who, and it's written by Claudio Fernandez. And Claudio is just a fantastic guy. It's a great book. People might want to look at that if they're interested more in how we and companies are thinking more about potential.

Anita Brick: Well, that's great. Now, it was a few years ago. Claudio did a career cast just like this.

Karl Alleman: Oh that's right, I'd forgotten about that. And see, this is sort of the next step. Back then, much of what we talked about were competencies and experience. That's all interesting and it is important. But what really differentiates the great candidates from the good candidates is potential.

Anita Brick: Got it. And I like this definition. It's very, very clear. There are a couple questions around what if you are in a situation where you are attractive to one market and you actually want to be in another? There was an MBA student who said, what are some key things? Someone with a technical background and an MBA seeking international assignments outside of Asia? It seems that Asia is where I have most of my opportunities, but I also want to experience Europe, Africa and or the Americas.

Karl Alleman: It can be a little bit tricky, let's say a different company, a company where you're not employed. Today, they're looking for somebody. Let's say I recently did a search for an American company looking for a person to run their business in Asia. They would only consider candidates who had lived in either China or India. So if we have a candidate here like this individual who has experience in Asia but wants to get experience, let's say in Europe, if they haven't worked in Europe already, it is highly unlikely that other companies would consider them.

They want somebody who's already been on the ground in a particular region of the world. What I would recommend is your best bet is either with the company or with today. Hopefully they have opportunities in that part of the world where you're seeking experience, work internally to get yourself positioned for them to invest in you and move you to that part of the world.

Or if your current company doesn't have those sorts of opportunities and you're really focused on this, then you're probably going to have to make a move, likely a two step move. So first, go to another company in your current region with the intention and with them understanding that you want them to invest in you. And then eventually move, you say from Asia to.

Anita Brick: Europe, that makes sense. And you already have equity and hopefully a good network inside your company to facilitate move number one, if you can actually do that within your company. Otherwise, like you said, it could be a two step process change where you are in that region and then change later. Yeah, something we haven't said explicitly, but is absolutely true, is that employers want to have as close to a zero risk as possible.

Karl Alleman: In most cases. Well, particularly, you know, still talking about, let's say, global multinationals, it is absolutely a global market for talent. So it just means there are a lot of options out there for individuals who can bring a particular skill set and experience base. One of our clients typically is going to expect that because, as you said, they don't want to take that risk. Can this person learn a new industry or learn a new function or learn a new region? Absolutely.

Anita Brick: So along with that global nature of talent and alum, ask, what is the value that an employer will seek when recruiting a foreign senior manager in a local company? It feels like, and maybe I'm wrong, but it feels like there is a movement away from that. It seems like there's more finding senior leadership in the local market as much as they possibly can, but on the times when they do find value in recruiting a foreign senior manager, why do they do it?

Karl Alleman: Your point? Your insight is exactly right. And it's a great question. The reason that I see that clients still do it, though, on occasion. Two reasons that come to mind. One is for that specific role. There is a set of experiences that they need that they just cannot find in that local market. And they have somebody internally who knows how to, let's say, build a plant or a, let's say, a supply capability from scratch in that market.

This is an American. They've already done it in Mexico. They've already done it in China. They now want them to do it in India. It's sort of a project based situation. It's a 2 or 3 year project. Then they've done it already. We know they can learn a different culture. Let's send them in. They can learn the culture in India and let's have them do it.

A second reason is these expats or somebody who, let's say, has already been working in a different part of the world from headquarters. They've been successful. They've demonstrated the ability to work well across borders. They know how to stay connected to headquarters and also become connected to the local market. I will say one more thing. There's actually a third reason that came to mind, which is sort of a different topic, but it's about developing truly global executives.

This is a whole probably a whole nother conversation we could have. But I think a challenge that these multinationals are facing now is that 50% of those senior jobs were expats. Now it's 10%. That's significantly fewer opportunities for this multinational to develop truly global executives. There are just fewer roles for them to move 30 something around the world to get on the ground experience in Asia, in Europe.

And that's a problem because let's face it, when that executive reaches their 40s or 50s and they're considering them to be potentially, say, CEO of the company, if they only have lived in their home country today, that's a problem. Can you imagine 10 or 15 years from now when the world is even more truly global? It's a real handicap. They're really highly valued for talent development purposes, and so sometimes they'll move that expat there just to develop them and help them become global.

Anita Brick: Interesting. It sounds like that's most likely going to happen if you're internal rather than coming from the outside.

Karl Alleman: Exactly.

Anita Brick: So there are a couple of questions about getting noticed. One was from a weekend student. The second was from alumni. Let's start with the weekend students. When looking for opportunities outside of my home country, how do you get yourself noticed by company recruiters and also executive recruiters like yourself?

Karl Alleman: One piece of advice and this is for any anybody who has interest in international or not developer relationships with people like myself, I don't know, it's probably every week or every month I will talk to some senior executive in their 50s, is looking to make the first job change, and they're just kick themselves out because they said over all these years, I just never returned those calls.

How many hundreds and hundreds of calls that I get from recruiters? But I was happy in my company. I was on a great path and I just never developed that aspect of an external network. It's understandable, certainly understandable why some people would do that, but it is shortsighted and it's not wise. Return those calls, make sure they know you're not interested in opportunities. If you're not, try to meet them if they're in town and that sort of thing, because those sort of relationships are going to help you. Sometimes you know, many of the people will have relationships already. Look, let's say they're in China today and they have a relationship with some recruiters in China, but they're interested in opportunities in other parts of the world.

I think it's important to know that some of the recruiters, you know, are only going to be focused on that part of the world. They will have no network elsewhere, so that is not necessarily going to be helpful. Other relationships you will have with consultants, with truly global firms realize that some of those consultants are not going to be connected very well at all with their colleagues in other parts of the world, so don't necessarily assume that they will recommend you, let's say, for an opportunity that comes up in Europe.

If they're in Asia today, number one, you might have to push them. So tell them you're interested in other parts of the world. So hopefully they alert colleagues in Europe that here's a great person. Keep them in mind for opportunities in Europe. And hopefully this person already has experience in Europe, but also maybe ask them for an introduction.

So let's say you're on a business trip and you're going from China and you're going to, going to Sweden to meet some colleagues over there, ask this recruiter if they can introduce you to one of their colleagues in Sweden so that you can develop that relationship. That doesn't happen very often, but it does happen. And I think those candidates that I see do that, that's really smart on their part, that's planting seeds for the long term. You know, those are some of the ways to help you get noticed by recruiters and what is truly a global business community.

Anita Brick: To follow on with that. What if you're not getting those calls? It could be that you're just quiet. It could be that you are accomplished, but just quiet. My experience, and I know variants of say, if I can, MBA students who might be at that level or alumni who are at that level, try to reach out on their own and really don't get a response, which makes sense. But are there any things that you would recommend either to increase the chances of getting called and or increase the chances of actually getting a response?

Karl Alleman: It's tough. We know, obviously any of us in the role, I mean, we get so many of these resumes and any of these recruiters are so busy that, you know, you tend to be responding to those that can help you on the searches you're working for. You're serving your clients today. So I fully understand that frustration.

One of the things that you can do is try to get referred to these recruiters. So I can tell you that if I have a candidate or a client who has a personal relationship, and they suggest to me that I talk to this other person, this high potential executive, whatever, I will always do it. Very different response, I think, from most recruiters, when a friend or a relationship suggests you talk to somebody as opposed to a random email coming into my inbox, that's probably the most important thing you can do. You know, you want to make sure that you're in the databases of the search firms, okay?

Anita Brick: And you get into the database by actually going online and uploading a resume. The other thing that comes to mind is if you and I think you did say this, but I just emphasize that if someone contacts you for a position you're not interested in and you feel comfortable doing this, be a resource for them. Yeah, that's an excellent point. Yeah. That increases the probability that you will get remembered.

Karl Alleman: That's a great point. Think about it. I mean what you're trying to do again I'll use the word again relationship. You're trying to develop a relationship in this case with a recruiter. And of course in any aspect of life, one great way to help develop a relationship is to help somebody. We are looking for that sort of help all the time. A big part of my role is to know great talent. And if you know some great talent and you can help me with that, that's a great way to make a friend, that's for sure.

Anita Brick: Right? You know, the second question, I think you answered it. It sounds like this album actually is on the radar in certain parts of the world, but actually language and experience could be attractive in other geographies and wanted to understand how to get on the recruiters global candidate pool rather than reaching out individually. I think there are two things.

Number one, helping and and like you said, if you're going to another part of the world and you have a relationship and one part, ask for that referral, which they may or may not do, but that the world in most search firms like Aegon Zehnder is that the offices, although are connected, do operate pretty independently, and so you may actually need to reach out individually to those other offices. There's not a giant database that everyone actively shares.

Karl Alleman: I think probably all the global firms do have. I assume we do anyway, have a global database. I can look in the database and see anybody, anywhere in the world who we know, but it's still not automatic. If this individual in China hasn't told anybody in our firm that they're interested in coming to the US, I'm not going to know that by looking in the database.

And even if they've talked to my colleague in China, if that colleague in China hasn't informed me of it, it's really hit or miss. All I can say is I'll reemphasize and make sure that you make your intentions known to the local recruiter who you know that you are interested in. Let's say the U.S. asks for those introductions and follow up on those introductions, even if it's just, you know, a brief phone call with me talking to somebody in China and these things, I mean, this happens all the time. I will have these conversations. It helps, and it absolutely can result in those opportunities.

Anita Brick: Right. Do you have time for a couple more questions?

Karl Alleman: Absolutely. Sure.

Anita Brick: Okay. Wonderful. So this one, it's a little bit off topic, but I was intrigued by it. So I thought I would ask you. I always love people who are embarking on expanding their entrepreneurial ventures. And Elon asked the question as CEO of a small boutique recruiting and selection firm, which deals mainly with technical recruiting up to directorship, but not at the executive level. What would you advise me to do to position myself to potentially partner with a firm like Aegon Center?

Karl Alleman: Well, that's an interesting one. Well, here's what I'll tell you about how it seems to generally happen in our firm. And I'll talk specifically about the Chicago office. So our firm, we work at the board level and say typically down to vice president level, there are certainly, you know, numerous cases where our clients will say, hey, great work you've done for us at these senior levels.

Can you help us with this director search or this manager level search? Unless it's a very unusual case where we have a specific experience, we'll say, no, we can't, but here are a couple firms that we really respect that do focus on those levels, and we will send those leads to those firms. Vice versa. They will send more senior things and international assignments where they don't have coverage in that market.

They will send it to us. It's not a formal relationship. It's not a joint venture. It's not an alliance. It's just a connection. So I think the recommendation here is make that connection and have something that you offer to them. Hopefully you can give that search firm some examples where there have been scenarios where you could have helped them, you could have given them a lead, or you could have sent them some interesting candidates that perhaps they didn't know and then ask for their help.

For those mid and lower level manager searches to come their way. I am assuming that other firms work in a similarly similar way, but that's certainly a productive relationship that one could have with Aegon's under.

Anita Brick: Great. Thank you. And thank you for answering that. Finally, you've given us a ton of wonderful insight. And I love, love, love the potential model that you talked about toward the beginning. We like to crystallize things into some tangible takeaways. If you were advising someone who is embarking on a cross-border job change, what are three things that you would advise that person to do?

Karl Alleman: The first thing is take the big picture thinking about yourself. So be a little bit selfish at this point. Force yourself to think about what you want to do over the next 10 or 15 years, and then come up with a couple different ideas or directions that could make sense for that next step? So make sure that this next step fits into your grand plans.

So that's number one. Number two, set yourself up for success. So remember you're not just checking the international box here. You have to be successful. I've seen examples where individuals have made this sort of a move and they have failed okay. They've checked the international box. They've also checked the failure box. And that's not something you want to do. So make sure you do your due diligence on that opportunity that you're looking at. And you start to develop those relationships right away and really and I guess this goes to the final piece, maintain those connections back to the headquarters and continue even when you're in another, another part of the world, continue to develop your relationships throughout the company and throughout your industry, you know, so that you have when this three year assignment is up, that you have several very attractive options for your next move.

Anita Brick: Great. Thank you Carl. This was really enlightening. And thank you so much again. I know you're super busy, so your time is very precious. And clearly you gave us some very valuable information today.

Karl Alleman: Oh I need to thank you very much. Thanks again. This was, it was a lot of fun, and I'm glad to hear that it was helpful.

Anita Brick: Great, and thanks again and thank you all for listening. This is Anita Brick with CareerCast at Chicago Booth. Keep advancing.