Transforming a Career Setback

Anita Brick: Hi, this is Anita Brick, and welcome to CareerCast at Chicago Booth. To help you advance in your career. Today, we're delighted to be speaking with Richie Norton. Richie is the bestselling author. I love this title, by the way, The Power of Starting Something Stupid and also for Resumes Are Dead and What to Do About It.

He is an international speaker and consultant for corporate growth and personal development, a social entrepreneur and CEO and founder of Global Consulting Circle. Richie received his MBA from Thunderbird School of Global Management, and he is happily married and with four boys. Richie, thank you so much for making the time. Great book, by the way.

Richie Norton: Thanks so much. It's my honor. I'm really excited to be doing this with you, I appreciate it.

Anita Brick: How would you define a setback?

Richie Norton: I really think a setback is when you tell yourself I can't move forward because this thing happened to me. I can blame reality and say I can't move forward because this is what's happening in my environment, when in reality, there are people all around us. They're still moving forward with their lives. We may not be experiencing some things that we're experiencing, but a setback is a mindset because a lot of times that can actually move you in a direction that could be better for you than where you would have been going in the first place.

Anita Brick: An executive MBA student said. I really like the way Ritchie frames it. Talk turns a current challenge into something clearly beneficial. I'm a strong believer that next to each adversity there is an opportunity, but you have to be able to focus on it. I am currently in such a challenge and want to start something stupid as an interim step and continue it even after I get a job.

I would love to hear any comments from Ritchie or stories along these lines. Think about something that was clearly a negative that you or someone that you know or have worked with turned into something beneficial.

Richie Norton: For one particular point, it was having a really hard time getting a job. We actually had worked really high up in this company. And then there was a fallout. Everything just seemed to change because now he was jobless, but he was capable and excited about working. It was hard and we sat down and we kind of mapped out what it was that he wanted to do?

I realized that what he was doing is what so many other people do, which is spend a lot of time looking for a job or looking to move up the ladder. Why can't we go fishing for throwing out, resonate, or throwing out ideas and hoping that someone will bite that hook? We're hoping that some will come along. Yes, I picked you.

I want you to do this great thing with me, when in reality that doesn't happen very often. There's a difference between fishing and hunting, so when you're hunting for a job, you actually get really specific about where you want to be and how you're going to get there. Instead of sending out a resume or hoping that someone will pick you kind of pick yourself and you say, I want to be in that position, or if I want to get that job and I need to meet a person, a person b c and I'm going to meet with them, not in some weird, random way I'm going to organically we talked about that, and we found

a way for him to meet the people that he needed to meet, create the relationships that he needed to create, and take time. It's not something that can happen overnight, but through that process, he was able to get an amazing offer above and beyond what he thought he was going to get, because he wasn't just saying, hey, somebody, somebody over here picked me. It was more very strategic, not just some random tactics that are thrown out there to try to catch up. He went to where he wanted to go to meet people, and was able to get the offer that he wanted to get.

Anita Brick: What seems to me though, he was coming from, as we like to say, throwing spaghetti on the wall and hoping something sticks. Approach to the approach that you suggested. How did you move him from, I would guess, a sense of fear and maybe, maybe even a squidge of desperation to coming from confidence, because how you're coming across will certainly influence the people with whom you are networking, interviewing and so on.

Richie Norton: Do you have to use the right word? A lot of it does have to do with confidence. Everyone thinks they're not as valuable as they really are at some point in time. That has to change. Definitely, when you're going to go get a job, you have to literally sell yourself. There's an employer mindset and there's an employee mindset.

The employer is sitting there with money and is looking to give this money to someone who he or she thinks is going to make more money for the company. The employee or the potential employee has a mindset of, I'm going to go and get a job and the employer is going to give me money to do that job.

They don't always necessarily think of the things that the employer is thinking, which is that this employee is going to produce more profit. This person is I help them reframe his thinking instead of just going out to get a job and get a paycheck, you are going to add value to this employer, and you're going to prove the value add to the employer before you get the job. You've got to change your mindset and kind of go hunting, sell yourself as if you're selling a product, and be confident because people can see through it.

Anita Brick: You're not well, absolutely. One of the questions that came from a full time student, which I found kind of interesting, he said, I've made peace with choosing the wrong job after undergrad. That said, how do I explain this in an interview? How do I demonstrate something beneficial from the setback? Obviously we don't have all the information, but it sounds like it was either the wrong decision because the person didn't like it or got fired, but clearly he framed it up as a setback. People are going to see your resume. How do you explain that you made a mistake and not apologize for it?

Richie Norton: That's really good. That person right here, I would say, why do you think that this is going to be a problem? And that person would probably say, oh, just a fear of mine. I don't really know if it's going to be a problem. I don't know, it might come up or they'd say, it's come up before it's been a problem.

So first of all, I would say either real fear or not. Whether it's real or not, we do have to overcome it. Moving on, I would tell that person, look, if that question comes up looming, that it does know if around the issue be straight, talk straight and say, look, I took this job right out of college or where the situation was because I thought it was going to help me do x, y, z. However, over the course of time, I realized that it was taking me in a different direction and my x, y, z. I realize this here with your company and so the Z didn't change. It was just the job that you basically got to express confidence that what you're doing now is where you need to be.

Anita Brick: Clearly, it has to be in your delivery and all of that. So if the person made a wrong decision post undergrad, how can that person convince an employer that they're not trying something else? That also could be a wrong decision?

Richie Norton: That's really good. That's really good. I've been hired to hire people before, so I sat on the other side of the table and interviewed people. In addition to that, I have interviewed people who I hire and I've listened in on conversations. When people come up, they hire the person they're trying to save face for themselves as well.

They didn't want to make the wrong decision themselves. They make their own decisions, a huge burden on the company, and they look bad as well. And so a person who's trying to get the job needs six of them. They really are looking to be in this job long term, that they're not just jumping from one industry or one company to the next.

And this is a long term play. And they need to do what I call mission matching, where you go in and you match your personal mission to the mission of the company, they can feel like they can trust you. They can feel that you really do care about the company, that you've done your homework, that you're there for a specific reason and not haphazardly. That is going to increase your odds of actually getting that job.

Anita Brick: That's good. Along the lines of that, someone said this was an hour long. He said, I've been looking for a job for 15 months and have no offers. Hiring managers tell me to explain the gap and telling them that I haven't been able to find a job for 15 months isn't very convincing. How do I bridge that kind of gap?

That sort of a setback? It sounds like maybe this person could use some other help in terms of his delivery and all of that, but getting very granular. What's the best way to not have a gap be viewed as an obstacle?

Richie Norton: If they're just sitting on their couch doing nothing? It's going to be hard to explain. But assuming they weren't doing that very straight, this is what I did during that time, so that I could eventually be in a position to be sitting here in front of you. For example, if I'm having a hard time, I would be spending my time doing projects that are in line with that job.

What I tell them to do is start projects in the field with experienced people. For free, so that when you go and apply for a certain job, you can say, during my time when I wasn't working, I was doing these service projects or projects pro-bono. So, you know, I wasn't getting paid for that, but I was adding value to the world.

Anita Brick: Got it, an existing MBA student said. And this is a little tricky. He said, I have more than 15 years of work experience, and I am in the middle of my MBA working full time. There is a new senior leadership team and they don't really know me all that well. I believe they're going to bring in their former colleagues. What's the upside?

Richie Norton: Here? Sounds like before this person had all these wonderful relationships within the business, and now those relationships are gone and that's what you're seeing. Start looking to help him or her move up the chain. I was in that position, which actually I have been. So I understand what this person's name is, the people that succeeded in that situation. I watch it very closely.

They looked for ways to help the leadership accomplish their goals, as opposed to barking at every new change. The people that weren't able to get on the train and see where they were going worked on the people that were on there and were able to add value, stating new people are coming here. Hey, you get to be the host.

You're the one that's been there forever. You get to introduce them to the great things about the company, shed light on the weaknesses of the company. You get to be the one that connects everyone. So become the host. Become the connector. Don't think of yourself as someone on the outside and will. I can't do anything about it. Put yourself front and center.

Anita Brick: I love that. That's great. Makes absolute sense. But the way you put it, it shows welcoming, it shows connection, it shows graciousness and that you're not afraid.

Richie Norton: Yes. Yeah. That's great. You know more than anybody else. You know more than the new president or whoever it is, you know more than anyone, and you need to share that with them. I mean, not in a cocky, weird way. That would be bad, but in a way that's value.

Anita Brick: Absolutely. Another question is that I want to switch gears a little bit. A weekend student said, I've had what others consider a spotty work history. I've had seven jobs in ten years. I was never fired for cause, but was in situations where there was more than a 25% staff reduction. How do I show that I'm a risk worth taking?

Richie Norton: You can't hide. You know what? If you're afraid to say they're giving their resume and they're very concerned they're going to read that is going to be a red flag. You're not going to want to hire them because of that. Be the first one to bring it up. Prefer you may or may not see this? I'm going to show it to you right now.

I have worked in seven different jobs in the last ten years, and I'm assuming I could be wrong, but I'm assuming you're going to look at that as a weakness. But I won't explain to you why it's not a weakness. Here's what I've learned from off the job. It's incredible. I've been able to take my experience in these different situations.

Okay, I didn't get fired. I didn't even get fired. There were layoffs. The economy was crazy. Able to take what I learned from each of these different companies. And even though some of them maybe have even looked unrelated, are able to take the best practices and principles and bring them together, bringing this wealth of knowledge here to work with you. I'm looking to work with you for a long time. There's fear. Is there anything else? I'm only here for a year and a half. I'm gonna get you to. Just to get my head on it. That's not what's happening.

Anita Brick: You're right. It is scarier to do it that way. But ultimately, it does show courage that can help a great deal.

Richie Norton: They'll respect you for it because it shows that you know it and shows that you can overcome it.

Anita Brick: You're right. Two questions that are a little bit not job focused, but more starting something stupid. Yeah, well I got to get to starting something stupid. Right. So and maybe in answering these questions you can explain a little bit what that means.

Richie Norton: Okay.

Anita Brick: Alum said, I've been in a position for several years without much growth. I want to start something in my company, but others in power aren't convinced we should do it. How can I show them the power of starting something stupid?

Richie Norton: Kid one well, there's a word for it and it's called entrepreneurship. You're being entrepreneurial within the framework of your business. Yeah, I'm looking for years like that. They like that you're being proactive and trying to change things and make it better. But if you're not open to it, it's because they're afraid that it's not going to work or that it's going to take away from what you're currently doing.

Whatever those concerns are certainly results. So whoever does have to give permission for you to be able to do this, if that's the case, you could talk to that person and say, okay, let's get really clear here. This is something I really want to do, and then show all the benefits of why you have to. Hopefully you can have this conversation and that person who has the power to say yes or no to hopefully say, well, we're afraid that if you do that, you're really taking time away from work.

You really need to be doing or work right is not going to work. We're afraid to take time and resources away. Whatever it is you say. Okay, I totally understand that. What if I did it for free after hours? Mean if it's something you're serious about doing, well, that wouldn't be a problem. Yeah. Can I come into the office early and do it about a day or an hour later?

Would that be interesting? Let's say the person doesn't want to do that. You don't want to do it that bad. So you say, okay, what if we did a small piece of the project, one piece of it, and let's see if it works or not? Because if it works, you got to paint the picture. If it works, then take it to the next level and do this. If I would do that, find out what the real concerns are, resolve them, and then offer third alternatives that work within whatever you're trying to do.

Anita Brick: That makes sense.

Richie Norton: You gotta start small. You start with one, get one small win. So the power for something stupid is that a lot of the ideas that we have, we tell ourselves that it's a stupid idea, or someone else tells us that it's stupid, when in reality some of the world's greatest innovations have come from stupid ideas. Everything from the telephone to the model T to Twitter.

I call it the three keys of stupidity. There's an example, but this person has quite a quote unquote stupid idea. Not that he thinks it's stupid, not inherently stupid, but for some reason his company is saying don't do it. It's not a good time for stupid times if you have to figure out why is that happening, and then overcome that challenge.

Anita Brick: Got it? Here's the flip side. This person didn't explicitly say that they think their idea is stupid, but an evening student said, I really want to start a company. I have ideas, energy, and deep knowledge. Yet I continue to procrastinate. How do I get past the inertia?

Richie Norton: Oh well, they said two things. They're procrastinating because when they're said they're scared, right? That's the first step. That's amazing. They're not procrastinating because they're lazy or they have. They're fiddling with too many things that don't give them time to do it. They procrastinate because they're scared. Here's a non-Newtonian example, but I have a friend, a big wave surfer in Hawaii, and she's got this huge 20ft wave.

Long story short, the wave took her to the top, landing down his board, came flying down him and broke his femur. He almost died, but he's lucky someone came and saved him. What's interesting is he had to have a metal pole fitness late because of this. After a few weeks, after he killed a little bit, he was back in the water surfing big waves to catch.

That was like, are you crazy? You have no fear. You know, like, what are you doing there? He said something really interesting. He said, you know, everybody, all researchers are scared out there, right? Do it because I love it. It was more scary for him not to be surfing big waves and miss out on an opportunity. And it was to potentially get hurt.

So it's the first thing to have a bigger life than fear. Whatever you're trying to start, we want you to want so bad that they're more scared of not doing it in the order of doing it. The other thing I learned is that the reason we're able to get back out in the water, you you don't start off surfing a 20ft wave.

You know, you start up learning how to swim, and then you catch one foot wave at two foot waves, and then five and ten and 20. And along the way you're falling down all over time if you can bear falling on a five foot wave and then a ten foot wave, you incrementally build up the courage to go for bigger and bigger waves and gain a tolerance for that bigger failure.

Because the higher you go, the bigger potential is the fall. So this person just needs to start really small, pick one thing and start there. Whatever it is. And then once you get that one thing out of the way, you can move up to the next two foot wave, three foot way, four foot way. Finally, you move your way up the chain and you incrementally overcome that fear.

Anita Brick: It makes perfect sense. I remember I went to this class, it was a management class post MBA. It was through the bank I went to, and by the end of the second day they had us and no one, including myself, was a great singer. But they had us singing in front of a group of 300 people. If they had told us that that was the goal, everybody would have left.

Or at least I would have laughed. I'm like, oh, that's not for me. There were little things that we did. We started. The first thing we did was we walked across the stage and said her name, no big deal. But they did exactly what you said. So by the time we got to it, it wasn't a little scary.

But by the time we were performing, albeit at various levels of skill in front of this group of 300 people, it was just one more tiny step that makes perfect sense. If you don't mind, can you share with us a challenge that you had that you created something truly beneficial? From?

Richie Norton: When I was in my undergrad, I was actually serving as president. This is at BYU Hawaii, a small international school. They're sending students from all over the world. And part of the mission of the school is for a lot of these students from different countries to come and then get a great education and then go back to whatever country they came from to be leaders and entrepreneurs and whatever else.

The problem was that a lot of them wanted to go home, but weren't going home because they didn't see any opportunities. And so I thought, man, there's got to be opportunity through entrepreneurship. So I wrote a business plan to the School of Business. So the competition about making this happen, creating a fund to help students go back to their home countries and start businesses.

And it totally failed. I mean, they told me their idea was marginal, and I wanted to do it so badly because I just really wanted to help people. That was in me. I wanted to help them. That hit it anyway. I raised money and the first thing that I did, of all things, with a cashmere company in Mongolia, just wild.

And then I did an inflatable bouncer, something in Samoa, I mean, others I could go on and on. What was interesting is it all started with a failed business plan. If it would have succeeded, then I probably wouldn't have had the guts or the drive to tweak it and change my ways and make it become what it could eventually become.

And then, long story short, more and more people got involved with this idea, and they created what's now called the center for International Entrepreneurship at BYU Hawaii. That little idea has now turned into an institution that helps thousands of people every day. And it all came from a small failure.

Anita Brick: I understand that, you know, on the surface, that makes total sense. And congratulations. What a great victory you had. I don't think most people are like you. I think a lot of people would just say, oh, well, it didn't happen. And I mean, even people were incredibly capable. It's very easy to get swayed by people you respect who then don't like your idea. How did you not give?

Richie Norton: Up going back to that great, or why? Helping that person overcome fear. Here's something that's really, really important to you. You do it. If it's not that important to you, you're not going to do it. Well. If you're Jeff Bezos as an example, the founder of Amazon, he was ahead of Wall Street and he had a great job. He just had this crazy idea to sell books online.

You'd research everything. He's either going to the internet, or a smart guy. You know, he would be amazing. He told his boss about his boss to come on a two hour walk around Central Park, trying to talk him out of it, and said, you know what? This is a great idea, but not for someone who has a good job. Thank you.

Ask yourself this question will I regret it when I came in because he said he would regret not trying out this wild idea when he stated he quit his job in week of end of the year to get annual bonus, he packed up in his car, his wife, and drove from New York to Washington and started this bookstore online.

And now look at what happened. Will I regret it? Once you can change everything. If it's something you really want to do, start incrementally. Never thought you'd be doing this huge thing and buying other companies who want to sell books online. That's what you got to do. You start really small and that can help you overcome any fear, right?

Anita Brick: Okay, good. Do you have time for one more question?

Richie Norton: Sure.

Anita Brick: We've talked about a bunch of things. We talked about how important it is to have purpose, to move things along incrementally, and also to have support around us to really find out what the questions are. The objections are that people have all of those things are terrific and it's really great advice. But if we were going to boil it down to three things, what advice would you give an MBA student or an alum currently in the midst of a career challenge and in need of practical next steps and maybe even a little bit of encouragement? So what are 3 or 4 things that you would recommend that someone could start right now?

Richie Norton: Number one would be get really clear on what it is that you want, the lifestyle that you want, so that you can get the job that helps create that kind of lifestyle. Forget the very clear if you don't know what you want, so you're going to get something random. But if you know if you want, you might see skill.

You're trying to get it. But at least you know you're moving your way up to try and get there. So get very clear on what you want. Number two, once you know what you want, starts. Now. Too many people say, I'm going to wait till I graduate. I'm going to wait till the mortgage is paid off. I go, wait, do I have more time?

I'm going to wait till I have more money. Then wait, wait, wait. Only to find out that when we finally get there to start, wherever they are thinking of starting or getting a job they want to do. Have they waited too long? States change the market, change circumstances, a change you guys start right now. Wherever you're at right now, start something that's in line with the career and lifestyle that you want right now.

If you want to get into financing, well, you should start a project. You're gonna find you want to start a project that is in line with what you want it to you, so that when you're trying to get that job, you can say, look what I did during this time period. It's in line with what your company is trying to achieve.

In fact, I met your back, president of Veterans Back, while I was doing this project. Whatever it is, start something that's in line with where you want to be. Third thing I would say is, hey, just have courage. Like life. Scary things are going to change. It's okay to fail. Everybody does. Using the big name Steve Jobs and Oprah, J.K. Rowling.

These people have failure after failure and they keep going. I love what Reid Hoffman, the founder of Lead Dance, says about living permanent data. In other words, you're permanently changing. You're permanently improving yourself. You are always looking for ways to improve the world, improve yourself by thinking about doing those three things, your chances of achieving the lifestyle or getting the career that you want will grow exponentially.

Anita Brick: Got it. So I have one more question. If you don't mind, it builds on that. The last part, number three, was about courage. Courage is a hard thing to gather. How do you gather courage when you're scared?

Richie Norton: Really good. You know, courage. The Latin root of that word, heart. Courage comes from your heart. That's the root word of courage. To make it practical. I'm scared every day when you're pushing yourself to do something new and people are watching and you can feel it's always going to be scary, you know, I'll get in front of groups of 2000 people to speak, and I'm scared out of my mind.

People I see, I know they're always scary. And so what I try to do is take three deep breaths. I try to realize that, you know what? If it works out, it works out. If it doesn't, it doesn't. I'm going to be okay with some, my, my fourth son, he caught something called pertussis or whooping cough, and he ended up having little and little.

And when someone close to you passes away, just realize that life is short. And that's not just some cliche. This cliche doesn't mean anything. To make it less true, I started something that I call, and I remind myself I've always kind of called it Gavin. His name was Gavin, which he has lived to start, to start to live these many lives, really start to feel called stupid ideas that come to your mind.

You really will start living a life with purpose and passion. I try to encourage myself by remembering that life is short. It's going to be okay and sometimes it's worth the risk putting yourself out there because I'd rather not live a life of regret.

Anita Brick: That's a wonderful way to end. Thank you so much. This was wonderful. You are practical and inspiring and continue writing and continue speaking because we clearly are all benefiting from your following your purpose. So thanks so much for sharing your insights and your wisdom with us.

Richie Norton: Oh you're welcome. I deeply appreciate it. Thank you so much.

Anita Brick: Thanks again and thank you all for listening. This is Anita Brick with CareerCast at Chicago Booth. Keep advancing.