Overcoming a Career Challenge

Anita Brick: Hi, this is Anita Brick. And welcome to CareerCast at Chicago Booth. To help you advance in your career. Today, we're delighted to be speaking with Susan Ershler. She and her husband Phil, became the first couple in history to climb the Seven Summits. She is a sought after international speaker who has served in leadership positions for fortune 500 companies for more than 20 years.

Her client list includes Aflac, Boeing, Cisco, Eli Lilly, Microsoft, Nike and Wells Fargo, just to name a few. She is the coauthor. Susan. Wonderful book Conquering the Seven Summits of Sales from Everett's to Every Business. Susan, thank you so much for making the time this morning. Well, thank you, Anita. I must say, it was a little nerve wracking reading the beginning of the book when you talk about that last leg of going up Everest, when you didn't make it the first time, and when one of the people in your party, his corneas started freezing over and I'm like, oh my gosh, what an amazing challenge.

I love the way you apply that to the broader context of business and leadership and sales. So we had a ton of questions. I don't know that we'll get to all of them, but we'll kind of do our best. People have very many different definitions of what a career setback might look like. How would you define it?

Susan Ershler: I kind of look at it as climbing a mountain and not getting to the summit, because in my career, believe me, I had career setbacks. And we can talk about those if you like, but also it was very similar to climbing high mountains. So the bigger the mountains, the bigger the careers we're going to face bigger setbacks. That's what happens.

And when it does happen, then we just need to address it and hopefully it'll motivate us. While I was advancing my career, I was also climbing the Seven Summits, the highest mountain on each continent. In the end, we were climbing Everest for 63 days and had to turn around because my husband's eyes froze over. We weren't able to continue to go up because it was the last day of the season, and so we had to come back home. I felt like a failure when I came home in my personal life.

Anita Brick: Clearly, that hole really is an analogy for you. It wasn't just a mirror analogy, it was the reality. It was climbing to the top of Everest. One of the executive MBA students said, I heard that you didn't make it to the top of Mount Everest the first time. That must have been an enormous letdown from a business perspective. I spent the last year zeroing in on a move to executive leadership. I had it all in my sights, and when it didn't happen, I felt like a failure. And I'm not really sure how to regroup. I think that what you had to do to regroup for the climb, there's a strong parallel with going after that executive leadership position, having everything aligned so it could happen. It didn't happen. How would you advise him to regroup?

Susan Ershler: In my career, I climbed the corporate ladder from a very initial position up until a vice president of sales for a fortune 500 company, and there were setbacks. And in the beginning, I guess I just want to share this with you. Anita is when I was 31. I was always in the operations side of the business, and I was in telecommunications. So we were in the high tech business actually with data communications networks. I loved it. My boss asked me if I'd like to go into sales and I said, boy, I didn't have the background. I did not have the training, but I took on the position. I didn't drive results and I didn't really realize that I loved meeting with customers, but I wasn't driving results.

And so actually, I got demoted. That's what ended up happening. Then I went home and I decided I'm going to quit. But I didn't because I thought about it all night and it's like, you can do it. It's just that you need more time. At the time, I was just depressed. But then I thought about it and I went back and I had a mentor and he told me, focus, become an expert in one area.

And I did that. And I worked harder in the beginning to make up for my inexperience and was able to drive results by continuing to be this lifelong learner. A year later, it took me a year to have 190% of the objective, and from there the leadership was promoting me and promoting me and promoting me.

Anita Brick: You seem to rebound pretty quickly. It sounds like this person is feeling bad. Things did not happen and needs to actually get going again. How does someone get going again when they're stuck?

Susan Ershler: What I've had to do with both climbing and my career is when someone or something tells us, no, whatever it is that we're going to go for, we have to have that vision. In the beginning, whether it's I'm going to be this top performer, I'm going to be a vice president, I'm going to be whatever it is, then that's our vision.

And we've got to just focus on it all the time, because that is what motivates us to do the right things. So once we have the vision, then we put the plan together and then we keep going back to a career setback. That is just someone or something telling us no. If it's the right thing for us though, we just have to turn that into a not yet.

I've got to do something different. I've got to change what I'm doing. I've got to put a better plan together. But I'm not going to stop going after my dreams. So I'm going to keep pushing. It isn't going to happen overnight, but it is kind of amazing how setbacks can end up being quite big motivators. It's like, okay, I didn't make it right then, but I'm going to do something different. I'm going to take on this advice that mentors give me or that, you know, other people give me because I am going to reach my dream.

Anita Brick: I agree with you. Yet at times someone can feel so stuck and in such a stagnant place they don't know where to get started. There was another executive MBA student who said when caught in a state of inertia and deep stagnation with seemingly an inability to find the right way out, how does one break a deadlock? So I think it's a little bit different.

The first person is, okay, this didn't happen. So all right, I need to recommit my vision. Am I going to go ahead? It sounds like the second person is just stuck. I mean, I can understand that people have a series of setbacks. I got an email from an alum this morning who had had a whole list of things. Some were work, some were personal, and they just kept piling up, piling up, piling up. And she had been stuck. So someone is super stuck like this student. What's that pinhole to like, get into the sunshine again. How do you take that first step?

Susan Ershler: And I think you hit the nail on the head taking the first step. Because every time we go after something big, whether it's a really impressive career or a big mountain, bigger it is. We're not going to be able to achieve it in a day, and we may not even be able to achieve it in a year. It's really important to look at ourselves as winners.

The very first thing again is to set that vision and it may change, you know, but to set that vision, it's like, okay, I am going to be this top performer or whatever it is that I'm looking at to make sure that we have that and we have it written out, and then we look at it every day, you know, so we start that way because then we're going to drill it into our minds that we are that winner.

We are a top performer, whatever it is that we're going after. And then again, there's so many things we can do. Put a plan together, building our network so critical because people will help us if they know us and they like us. Starting today, go out and find those people that can help us and help them. They'll come back again. That's not going to happen over a day. So find that person that will either be a mentor or will at least give us some advice.

Anita Brick: You're right. Earlier today, I spoke with one of the new executive MBA students. I looked at his LinkedIn profile and like, wow, super impressive. Not that I wasn't thrilled to be talking to him, but I was wondering why. I mean, what did he need? When we chatted and in the course of a conversation, I learned that through a year of procedure that he had to get rid of pain.

He was left quadriplegic, but only for four months, which is very unusual. And he did exactly what you're saying. He had a vision, a really clear vision of where he wanted to be physically and in other ways. And he kept taking initially small actions so that eventually he was able to walk and do all of those things.

What if you can't find division or you have too many options for your vision? There was a full time student who said, I have multiple areas of interest and a variety of things that I do well. My biggest challenge at the moment is creating a solid vision so I can build the necessary steps and the skills while I'm in school to excel. What is your advice on choosing the best path? I'm afraid I will analyze things forever and not move ahead.

Susan Ershler: When I was 31 and I had this career started, I had no idea I'd ever be climbing. I'd never hiked or climbed a thing. And now I've climbed the Seven Summits, and I had no idea I'd ever be a vice president in a corporation. Some people do have a vision that they're going to hit from the time that they're in their 20s or early 30s, but I don't think that it always starts out that way. I think we do need to try to get to the next step. I want to be a top performer in whatever the position I'm in right now.

Anita Brick: So you're saying this person doesn't need to say I want to be in private equity, or I want to be in marketing, or I want to be in consulting, because it sounds like that's really his question. I have these varied interests. I could be good at multiple things. I don't know where to start. I don't know what to say. Yes, too. I don't know what to say no to. And as funny as that may sound, that can actually be a big obstacle because you have too many choices. How do you filter when you have too many choices?

Susan Ershler: I believe what we've got to do is focus on something. The early feedback that I received was to become an expert in one area, become an expert there. Focus on that area because again, if we can achieve top performance there and whatever that happens to be, we may not know where we're going in about five years from now, but when we achieve that, top performance will keep moving up.

Like I say, I had no idea I would be a vice president now. That became my goal over the course of years, but not in the beginning. All it was in the beginning was, I want to make sure that I'm there being acknowledged for at least hitting 100% or whatever. My objective is to be right there with the top performers and be the best at that one area that you can be. Be an expert there and then you can change out of that area. But if you're an expert there, then other people will help raise you up. It's like, wow, they're an expert that well, they can also be very good over here.

Anita Brick: Got it. This is from an alum. I've been looking for a job for 15 months with no offers. Hiring managers tell me to explain the gap and tell them that I took time off to help a family member who is ill and isn't working. How do you help someone feel comfortable when there's nothing you can do? Because there is that gap.

Susan Ershler: What advice do you have on that from what you've shared with people? I'm just curious.

Anita Brick: I think you have to feel confident in what you're saying. If you're apologetic, then the interviewer is going to pick that up. To me, it goes back to thinking about your own situation when your gap wasn't an employment gap, your gap was a performance gap. How did you begin to feel comfortable with that gap so that you could?

Susan Ershler: Bridgette, I think again, we just can't look at ourselves as not being able to do it as not being the winner, as looking at ourselves as the loser. Sure. Why? We had to turn around. We had to take those setbacks. There's just no question. And in that situation where you're trying to explain that to someone or to a recruiter, I think again, it's just going back to what you have achieved and sharing those stories of your success, whether that's building a team, you know, being strong with team members or whatever it is.

Anita Brick: A lot of what you're saying is that you've got to believe in yourself. What do you do when you're in an environment, whether it's family, friends, colleagues, your networking contacts, you're going out and interviewing and you're just not getting positive reinforcement? That would encourage you to believe in yourself. How do you grind that out? I think that's a very difficult thing to do. How do you create that kernel of belief when you don't have it?

Susan Ershler: I think that's very difficult to know. Question. When we build our network, that sure helps. What we always say in climbing is we don't climb high mountains alone. We just don't, you know, it's so dangerous up there to have people there that if we fall, they can help us. And if some of the people in your network really don't respond to you or don't believe in you, then maybe go find others and start meeting some other people that really have some good techniques and some good, you know, advice for us.

If we go up and we talk with people and we listen to them and we build that relationship, and again, it doesn't happen overnight and we need some help, we can call them and they're going to help us because they know us. But if they don't know us, they don't have the time. That's a really big thing. And I just want to say, okay, if we look around and we look at a company and look at the CEO, how did they get there?

Sure. It just may take some time, but let's focus. Let's have that vision. Let's put the plan together. We can know how we're going to do this including in that plan I'm going to build some network. Maybe if I can find a mentor. Sometimes that'll work. Sometimes it won't. Again, people are so busy in this day and age, but if we can find a mentor that really will help us, then find role models and watch what they're doing and try to mimic that. But again, setting those goals, holding ourselves accountable and continuing to go forward.

Anita Brick: And it seems very simple in the reality of the work that I do. It's not as simple. And I'm wondering, how did you transfer form when you were in an environment where you got demoted? That was clearly not what you wanted. You had had a history before that. How did you pick yourself up? Because I'm sure it wasn't. It wasn't pretty. I'm sure that not making it all the way to Everest the first time wasn't pretty, and it probably just knocked the guts out of you. How did you do it? How did you, like, grind it out again and really pick yourself up?

Susan Ershler: When I was pushed into another department where the expectations were much lower, what that is, is a demotion. Everything changed. At first. I was going to quit. I'm like, I'm out of here, I'm done with this. I'm young. I'm going to go do something different. But then I thought about it, and the reason I stayed was because this was a good industry and I really believed that I could probably do it, but it's going to take time.

So I was really bummed out about it, just the same way as when I came back from Everest. We had no plan to go back. I just missed the biggest peak of my life. People are like, oh, well, that's okay. You got real high. And it's like, no, that was not the dream. My dream was to stand on top, you know?

So for myself, I was extremely bummed about that. I felt like a failure. I have felt like a failure in business and I felt like a failure on the mountain. I hear what you're saying, and. Yeah. And so what I did, you have to deal with it for a little while, but it's like you're not a failure. I can reach success in business and I can eventually reach success in the mountains. So how am I going to do it? Well, first of all, I just have to pick myself up. And that's what I did. After I received that demotion, I went home, I was angry, I was quitting all that. But then I thought about it for a while. No, I'm going to go back and I'm going to outwork some of the people in the office.

I can do that in the beginning. Work hard. It's the same as if you're going to run a marathon, sign up, work backwards, work hard. You know you're going to have to do that in the beginning to make up for the inexperience. Number two, I'm going to become an expert. And so I became an expert. Educate myself. I can't just go to work.

I've got to continually educate myself. There's so many things, but it's also building that network. I've got to be a lifelong learner and stay up on industry trends and stay up on new insights. And when I say also building that relationship, you might have a boss that you don't like, that you may have a boss that does not like you.

What I have seen over the years is sure I had to experience that. So build those relationships with other people in the company because eventually they may become the boss and they'll help take you up. And that helped with me, even colleagues, one of my colleagues who sometimes you're internally competing with, which we did his name was Hiram, and we internally competed.

And this was after that. And I was starting to again advance my career. Now it did work for a while. He was advanced into a new position where they moved him out of state because we were friends and we spent time together. Just, you know, him and his wife and me having dinners and all that. And we were friends, but we were internally competitors. Well, he convinced the leadership to give me his position when he left, and that advanced my career again. So other people in the company can bring us up.

Anita Brick: That was very good, by the way. Thank you. You started at a young age and there were a couple of questions, and they both clearly were from women, and one was talking about being in a really aggressive, chauvinistic environment and the other person talked about not being respected. I think she felt it because she was fairly young. Any advice to someone who may be in an environment that is a little hostile, or where they're trying to get their legs because they're early in their career and they're not getting the respect that they feel that they deserve.

Susan Ershler: Yes. And I hear you on that. When I was early in my career, I was totally in a male dominated industry and it was kind of interesting bosses, peers, customers, almost everybody was male at the time and that was okay. But what I found was that there were times even that I needed to bring a male in with me, especially when I was in the operations side and somebody's complete network had gone down and was like, really?

She can take care of it. There's times where every once in a while I would bring my boss in with me and whatever it takes to make the customer successful or whatever it takes to make my peers successful, I'm going to do that. I think the biggest career change and everything in my life with the industry that I was in, was I had to drive results, because once I did, once I went back to work and I started working harder, smarter work harder, work smarter, all that and I finally reached a point where I was equal. It's the great equalizer when we can drive results.

Anita Brick: Well, it sounds like a common theme with all of this is that you have to take responsibility. I can't blame you for something that isn't going well for me. I need to sit back, take responsibility, figure out what it is that I do well, where do I need to shore things up? You know, maybe modify things, accelerate my skill development? It seems like that's a common theme, that it starts with you.

Susan Ershler: Oh, no question, no question. You know, I actually have three words that I have used in my career and climbing mountains. And I boiled it down to three words: project, prepare and persevere. Project is that project your future has a really clear vision of where you're going. And I want to specify if we're early in our careers, that might only be the objective and the vision that we're going to get to in six months or a year, not five years from now.

So whatever that vision is, though, we have it written down, and then we write down a plan of how we're going to get there. Some of these things that we've talked about, you know, building that network, staying up on new insights, maybe finding a mentor and then to persevere. We're going to get knocked down. What I always do with the persevere part of this is that pain won't last. Step back from it for a while. Look at it. How are we going to do it? Find advice from great people out there and then go for it again.

Anita Brick: It's interesting because there was one question from an alum and it made me think of his question, but it also made me think of a question for you. His question is how does one overcome the obstacle? In his case, he is about to be of the age to retire. He has no intention of retiring or cutting back, and he wants to know how one keeps climbing? And then my question to you, and maybe we can answer them in tandem, is how do you keep climbing when you've been to Everest? What's the next thing for you? How do you continue to create advancement? If we answer one, we'll probably answer both.

Susan Ershler: Those are very good questions. And I think one is let's say that you've achieved a big climb, then it does make it possible for us to go onto the next one. For example, in the very beginning when we were climbing, I climbed Mount Rainier, which is here in the state of Washington. That's our highest mountain, 14,000ft. I never thought I'd climb Everest. Eventually. We just kept climbing, kept climbing other mountains, other mountains. And eventually. Yeah, I just climbed McKinley in Alaska. I can climb Everest. But what we've learned, I think, from doing that and the experience that we get, we can take it to the next step. And when somebody is in a career for quite a while, they have a lot of wisdom and knowledge and experience that is something that's tremendous, actually for most companies, because that's what they need in a lot of positions. So the biggest thing is okay, I guess I want to say this because it's true with climbing. Gotta keep up on new insights. That's the thing. So we've advanced our career, but we've got to stay current in today's world and what is going on and what you know, what's important.

Anita Brick: With regard to this alumni comment. Maybe the new advancement is via innovation, maybe through keeping up on those trends and the new and different and better there is a pivot, maybe not a big pivot, where he can still leverage his experiences into a slightly different field. Maybe that would be a possibility as well.

Susan Ershler: That really makes sense.

Anita Brick: He's time for one more question. Okay, good. I like to at the end, bring everything together. And he's given us a lot of really good insights. Let's say someone is listening to this right now. It could be a student. It could be an alum from the MBA program. Someone is in the midst of a career challenge and needs some practical advice. What are three things that you would tell that person?

Susan Ershler: What I think is the most important thing? Dealing with a career challenge is just, again, stepping away from it for a little bit. And first of all, set your vision, but also know that you're strong, that you are a winner, that you can do this, just never letting someone or something tell you that you can't because you can.

So having that real clear vision of where you're going to go and then putting the plan together, we can't just go out and do it. We've got to step away and say, okay, well then how am I going to do it? And again, we may need that expertise from others to help share with us how we're going to do it.

So we put the plan together because we have that because that's going to be based on our vision, and then we're just going to keep going back. We're going to persevere. We're going to continue to go back and go back. If we get told no, it doesn't mean that we have to stop. We just may need to change something.

We've got to do something different. We have to find a new way to do it. We've got to put a new plan together. But we're not going to stop going after the vision. And that may take years. But believe me, when you can achieve that top performance of whatever it is that you're going after, from there on, it's like then everything oftentimes becomes wonderful.

It's not going to be wonderful forever, but it just gets you to that point where leaders respect you, colleagues respect you, everybody. It respects you and then you can just keep taking it from there. We just need to get to that spot. That would be my recommendation.

Anita Brick: That's great Susan, thank you so much. I know you're super busy and I wish you much success with this latest book and really appreciate that you made the time to be with us today.

Susan Ershler: Well, thank you. Thank you Anita. Appreciate that. Wonderful people. Thanks.

Anita Brick: And there's lots of great stuff on Susan's site. And it is her name SuzanErshler.com. And thank you all for listening. This is Anita Brick with CareerCast at Chicago Booth. Keep advancing.