Influence the Art of Getting Others To Follow Your Lead With Terry Bacon

Anita Brick: Hi, this is Anita Brick, and welcome to CareerCast at Chicago Booth, helping you advance in your career. Today we're delighted to be speaking with Terry Bacon. Terry has been a consultant to global businesses in leadership, management, and interpersonal skills for more than 30 years. In 1989, he founded the Lore International Institute, an executive development firm recently acquired by Korn/Ferry, where he is currently a scholar in residence.

He's the author of many books, including the one we're going to talk about today, which is Elements of Influence: The Art of Getting Others to Follow Your Lead. Hi Terry, thanks so much for doing this.

Terry Bacon: Hi, Anita. It's my pleasure.

Anita Brick: Influence means different things to different people, which is pretty obvious as we'll start going through the questions that were submitted. How would you define influence?

Terry Bacon: Well, I would say that influence is the art of getting others to take your lead. It means to get other people to believe something you want them to believe, or to think in a way you want them to think or to do something you want them to do. It can mean influencing someone to take action, to agree with you, to join your team, to choose a particular alternative, and so on. It really is getting others to agree with or go along with what you want them to.

Anita Brick: I mean, I know that that all sounds great. How would I or anyone get started understanding how we influence well now and what to do better? Where do we start?

Terry Bacon: First of all, everybody develops a capacity to influence others. Really from birth, when babies cry and get their mother’s attention, they're influencing their mother. We learn influence strategies as we're growing and developing. And by the time we're, you know, in college or by the time we're adults, we really have refined a lot of different ways of influencing others.

I think to be self-conscious about it, however, and to really be effective in getting others to follow your lead, you need to have more of a conscious awareness of how influence happens and why, when you fail to influence others, why that's happened. Clearly, one of the ways of influencing is to use logic, and it's in fact the most used influence technique in the world.

But it doesn't always work because people are not robots. We don't make decisions just rationally. We make them emotionally and based on many other factors. To be really good at influencing others, you have to understand what it is that people find influential and why they would agree to go along with someone.

Anita Brick: And how do you do that?

Terry Bacon: People will tell you how to influence them if you just listen carefully. For example—and it depends on the circumstances. If you're in a situation where you're with scientists or you're with very rational people, and they are using logic themselves to try to influence other people, then it's best for you to use logic with them, because that's what they will most likely respond well to. If you're dealing with someone who's irrational and very emotional, then a rational technique is not likely to work. You should try to use the sort of influence technique that they are using or that they are responding to.

One of the interesting things I discovered as I was doing this is really self-evident. It's what I call the simple test. And that is when you're thinking about influencing someone, it's good to just ask yourself, why would they say yes? And why would they say no? And if you use that simple test, you can diagnose a lot of situations and determine, first of all, whether you can influence that person. And secondly, how best to go about it.

Anita Brick: That's so basic, but that makes total sense. We know that if we've encountered someone before and they've said yes, there's probably a path to do that. And if they object, we probably know that too. It seems like a lot of people are convinced. One of the students asked, is there a best practice? Sometimes people get in their mind that they need to influence a certain way, and they keep doing it, even if it doesn't work.

Terry Bacon: Yeah. That's right. That was one of the key lessons for me in the research too, is, you know, if you're trying to use a logical argument to persuade someone and it's not working, then don't keep using logic. You're not going to overwhelm them with facts. You absolutely have to know your audience.

Anita Brick: One of the evening students had a question which was interesting along these lines. When building new relationships or presenting new ideas, is it better to air differences and try to resolve them right away, or to first devote time to establishing common ground and building the relationship?

Terry Bacon: Yeah, that's a good question. And I believe that it's best to begin with commonalities and to try to discuss and identify what’s agreeable between you before you go on and discuss differences. And the reason I say that is because one of the techniques of influencing is socializing. And socializing is when you try to find commonalities with other people.

And the reason that works is because of the psychological principle of similarity. Psychologists have shown through abundant research that when people feel similar to someone else, or when they feel like someone else agrees with them, they are more likely to say yes to that person. So it's better to establish commonalities first and then to discuss and resolve differences.

I wouldn't do it too much later, because if people are acutely aware that they disagree with you on some key point, that will hang in their minds until it's resolved.

Anita Brick: That makes sense, that you don't wait too long because they may be thinking about the difference and not listening to what you say. You could lose them.

Terry Bacon: Yeah, exactly.

Anita Brick: There was a follow-on question that kind of goes along with this. Another evening student said, from what I've observed, very likable people often don't get taken seriously. And very aggressive people don't attract followers. How do you strike the balance between being likable and being aggressive?

Terry Bacon: That's also an excellent question. And first of all, I would say that influence effectiveness depends on the context and some circumstances. Being very likable will actually enhance your effectiveness. For example, if you're working in a service organization or in a nonprofit, it can be best to be likable. And the reason for that is that one of the sources of power behind influence is what I call attraction.

Attraction power is the ability to cause others to like you or to want to be with you. And it's an extraordinary power source at enhancing your influence. People who are likable tend to have higher attraction power, and, therefore people will be more influenced by them. Obviously, being overly aggressive can— you can actually diminish your influence, particularly if you use what I call a dark-side technique, like intimidating or threatening.

Those are ways of influencing, but they tend to destroy the relationship between people. I think it's best actually to balance attraction power and its complementary influence techniques, like socializing and appealing to the relationship that you have or building alliances, and to balance those with rational approaches. The, you know, the most effective people in influencing are ones who have a really full toolbox, so to speak.

You know, I've done 20 years’ worth of research on power and influence, and one of the things I discovered is that most people tend to use one or two or three influence techniques to the exclusion of the others. So somebody who uses logic a great deal tends to use it substantially more often than, say, socializing or appealing to values or inspiring people or exchanging or some of the other influence techniques.

They get very good at that, but consequently, they're not as good at the things they don't use as often. The most influential people are likable, but also—not aggressive, I wouldn't say aggressive—but they're also rational, and they can present a good argument. And, you know, they're really balanced in their approach. And I think that's where, if you have a really likable person who also can put together a good argument and back it up with facts, then you've got a powerful influencer.

Anita Brick: Well, that makes total sense. And also you want to have diversity in terms of the way that you influence, because otherwise I would guess it would be really predictable and you lose some of your ability to influence.

Terry Bacon: Well, exactly. And the other fact is there are 10 influence techniques that we've identified in the research, and none of them work all of the time. And the secret to influence is being adaptable. So, you know, as you start trying to influence someone, you read their responses. And if they're not responding in the way that you had anticipated, then you change your technique. You go to something else rather than stay with what you're using.

Again, powerful influence comes from people who have a really full toolbox. They can use every technique more or less equally well, and they are really influential.

Anita Brick: You know, one of the EMBA students asked about how do you identify those key influencers? He works at a large global institution and is having a hard time knowing which people are truly relevant and can get things done. And he's concerned about allocating time to the wrong people. So. So can you outline a strategy to help a person identify who the key influences are in the decision-making process?

Terry Bacon: Yes, I think you can, and again, this will be sort of self-evident. When I'm in a situation like that, I look for the people on the fast track—those who are identified as the high potentials. You look for those people who are being promoted, especially repeatedly promoted, those who are given the most challenging assignments, or they're assigned to the key task forces in the organization.

People who are the highest performers in their area tend to be more influential. Those whom others consult with most frequently are likely to be the movers and shakers. Those who are attending the premiere training programs are given the best development opportunities, and also people who have the largest and most vibrant networks are going to be the people who are the movers and shakers.

Sometimes we gravitate toward people who tend to think like us, but if you're really looking to find out who's really relevant, then I think those are the kinds of cues that you look for.

Anita Brick: Makes sense. And that's a related question, this time from an alum talking about how to influence a team. And the team works closely together, but they report to a different manager. How do you influence a team that doesn't report to you when the direct supervisor has power over jobs and assignments and even money?

Terry Bacon: Again, a very good question. Let's take just the team's direct supervisor first. What that person has is legitimate authority. And that person has the power of rewards and punishments, if you will. That person is going to have, obviously, a great deal of influence with the team because of the legitimate authority he or she has.

If you're trying to influence the team, though, there are ways you can do it. For example, you can be a provider of something that the team needs—and that can be intellectual property; it can be solutions; it can be your capacity to consult with them and help them do their work. You know, you can add value in a number of ways. Essentially, what you have to be able to do with a team like that, though, is add value that doesn't conflict with what the direct supervisor's authority is.

So you never want to go in and try to get the team to do something that was contrary to what their direct supervisor wanted them to do. There, you're going to create a conflict, and you're likely to lose because you have less power than the supervisor does. But if you can find a way to add value in some other way, I think that's the way to influence the team. Does that make sense?

Anita Brick: Oh, it totally makes sense because, especially if you can provide something, again, that is not in conflict with their direct supervisor, but that their supervisor cannot provide.

Terry Bacon: It should be additive value. And if you can provide an additive value, then you're going to be influential with the team.

Anita Brick: Makes sense. Another question, this time from a weekend student. She wanted to know how do you influence middle managers who are extremely time challenged and then focused on their own fires, and so on, to participate in her initiatives? And how do you do it in a way that is authentic and not manipulative?

Terry Bacon: First of all, I think that you need to be very specific about what you're asking for. You know, you need to clarify it from their perspective. So I'll go back to this simple test. Why would this person say yes to you, and why would the person say no? We've already got some of the nos. They're extremely time constrained. They're focused on their own fires and so forth. So you need to look at what is their latitude to say yes to you and what would make it compelling for them to do so.

So I would say be specific, first of all, about what you're asking for, what their time commitment would be, and why they should support you. You know, how does it benefit them, their operation, or their people? Sometimes the way to do it is to build an alliance of supporters, if possible, who can persuade this person to participate or go along with you. Sometimes, instead of just approaching the person directly, you can find others in the organization who are supportive of your initiative and would in essence, help you persuade this person to go along with it. But essentially, what you have to do is build a case for yes and mitigate the case for no.

Anita Brick: Does this change or does this even become more important if it's a very hierarchical organization?

Terry Bacon: Oh yeah, absolutely. Because in that kind of organization, people typically are looking for permission, if you will, to do something, especially if you're asking them to do something that's out of the norm, that's not part of the normal operation of this hierarchical organization. You know, sometimes they won't feel that they have the latitude to say yes unless their boss would support it.

So sometimes you have to go to the boss and try to gain that person's support, or you have to show that what you want is going to, again, be of additive value and is not going to be contrary to what the organization is trying to accomplish or what the the managers in the hierarchy will feel that is in their best interests, and the best way to persuade somebody is to to give them something or show them something that is already in their best interest.

Anita Brick: Right. That makes sense. And at some level, it’s not going to cause a lot more work.

Terry Bacon: Oh yeah. Right. Exactly.

Anita Brick: There was a question from an Exec MBA student who said, what recommendations would you offer for an expat working in Southeast Asia tasked with change management in a multicultural environment where resistance to change has been plaguing the organization? Apart from building relationships and creating incentives, can you offer any other tried and true tactics?

Terry Bacon: Yeah, I was really intrigued by that question because it's not uncommon. And this one really gets us into the whole notion of the cultural aspects of influence, too. In my book, I outline the 10 laws of influence, one of which is that influence is often a process rather than an event. So I would look at that situation as a process. It's not going to happen overnight. And I would look to institute small changes that can add up to a big change later. Sometimes a small victory, and then another small victory, and then another small victory will give you, you know, the ultimate win. But if you go for the ultimate win, at first, you're going to encounter way too much institutional and cultural resistance.

Another thing that I think is imperative in this kind of situation is to look for systemic barriers to change and try to address them first. So a systemic barrier, for example, would be if the incentive system in this organization really doesn't motivate people to do what you want them to do. If the change that you're trying to institute is not being incentivized in some way, then you have a systemic barrier to the change.

I'll give you a really concrete example. I was working in a law firm once, and they wanted to institute strategic account management. And strategic account management requires people typically to devote a lot of time to building the relationship with the client that is not necessarily going to be paid for. You know, there's no billing charge for that.

But the lawyers in this firm were motivated to accumulate, you know, billable hours. They were disincentivized from devoting that kind of time to relationship building, so they wouldn't do it. That is a systemic barrier to change. So I would look at those. And, you know, sometimes the only way to do it is to be able to influence the very top leadership in the organization and get them to go along with it in that you're trying to build an alliance with senior management.

Where there is a cultural resistance to change, you almost always need top management support of the change to the point where they become the public face of change and earnest supporters of it. You know, they need to drive the change and insist on it when they meet with their subordinates. I think it's almost impossible to institute change in a multicultural environment unless you have the agreement—and not only the agreement, but the active assistance and leadership—of the top management in the organization.

Anita Brick: And it sounds also like sometimes you get that by taking small action and showing some victories. On the small action side, you can use that to actually influence more senior management that this is a good idea to move ahead.

Terry Bacon: Yeah. Yes. I think that's exactly right. If the change involves people doing something differently, sometimes you have to develop the tools for them, then change the system, then train the people and then reward the change behavior. Well, in essence, punishing unchanged behavior.

And you know, some of that typical change management wisdom applies here, like finding champions of the change who can act as first adopters and, you know, tackling the low-hanging fruit first and publicizing and celebrating successes and so on. All of those kinds of tactics are things that will work. Typically you have to do all of what I just said.

Anita Brick: Absolutely. There were a couple questions around influence in the midst of a transition or a job search. One was from an evening student, the other was from an alum. So the evening student asked, saying, I would like to know how to influence the perception of individuals in an industry you're targeting that is going to be a career switch. How do I portray myself in a way that leaves a positive, lasting impression?

Terry Bacon: That's a very interesting question, and I think the answer is that you have to gain credibility in the industry that you're targeting. That's really fundamental. So when you try to get into that industry, you have to have the ability to gain instant credibility with people. So I would say, you know, the answer is, first of all, build your knowledge base, your knowledge of the industry, of the key players in the industry, of the products and services in that industry, of the competitive environment, but regulatory environment, you know, everything that's relevant.

Well, you have to build your reputation in your current industry and then in essence, transfer that reputation via references and social networking and so on. If I were—let's say I was in the garment industry, for example, and I want to switch to something radically different, like high tech. I would want, first of all, to be a stellar performer in the garment industry. And I would want to get references. I would want to build a LinkedIn profile that had just outstanding references from people in my current industry. And then when I go to another industry, I can point that out and use that as validation that I am a competent, motivated, and so forth individual who's going to do well here.

You want to build attraction and acceptance by adopting the values, image, and speeches of the target industry. You have to talk like them. You have to look like them. You have to have the requisite knowledge and so forth. You can attend target industry conventions and courses. You can participate in online discussions. You can read what people in that industry read. And all of those things are going to build your credibility and enhance your opportunities when you get moved to that target industry.

Anita Brick: I agree. There was someone that we had a chat with a few months ago who talked about how you can come in as a tourist, or you can come as a near native. And I think what you're saying is that the more things that you know, the language, the mores, even the dress of that field—you probably wouldn't walk into Google in the same dress as you would if you were an investment banker in New York or Hong Kong or London.

But I think the idea is that you need to know them inside and out so that not that you're faking it, but that you have a high level of fluency in how they operate. And I think that's …

Terry Bacon: Yeah, that's a very good way to put it. And I like the near native analogy as you want to talk like they do. And it's not faking it. If you really do your homework, you're not faking it. And in fact, faking it is one of the best ways to lose credibility because people will discern that.

Anita Brick: Absolutely. Along with that, there was a question from an alum, and he said, in hiring, the speed of the process tends to be dictated by the employer. So do you have any suggestions on how the candidate can influence the employer in order to make the decision process faster? That's a tricky one.

Terry Bacon: It is a tricky one. And, you know, I would really begin with a notion that I wrote in the book, which says that it's not possible to influence everyone all the time. If you look in bookstores, you will find—I saw some books that said how to persuade anybody to do anything in eight minutes or less. This is nonsense. It's simply not feasible. And as I pointed out in the book, if that were possible, then all of the conservatives would have convinced all the liberals to adopt their positions and/or vice versa. It simply is not possible.

So first of all, recognize that you may not be able to influence the employer to accelerate the hiring process. Appreciate what loops they have to go through and what requirements they have to meet. And, so it may not be possible to do that, but that said, I think, you know, one of the ways that you might be able to accelerate the process is to convince them to hire you part time as a contract employee, and then do such a stellar job that they are compelled to offer you the position full time or get them to hire you as a consultant, perhaps.

And then again, performing so well that they conclude that they want to hire you. I honestly don't know of any other ways that you can get some employers to go through the loops faster, unless you are so outstanding a candidate and head and shoulders above everyone else they're looking at that they say we really don't need to go through the rest of this process because we have the person we want to hire. I think that's rare. In my experience of hiring, I don't know that that's ever happened. It may not be possible to accelerate it.

Anita Brick: Well, and I think it goes back to what you said earlier, the more knowledge that you have, the easier that you make it for them to see your credibility and the value that you can bring. I mean, that in itself can accelerate the process a little bit. Of course, you know, bureaucracy and hoops that you have to go through certainly can impede that.

But there are things that you could do to slow it down, too. So if it's not clear the value you're going to bring, they're going to interview other candidates. Even if you're the only one that they have found, they may just start the process again.

Terry Bacon: Yeah, exactly. And you know, sometimes people will say, well, look, identify the person you'd ultimately be working for or the person above them and go try to meet with that person or use, develop a friendship or something like that and get them to circumvent the hiring process. That can really backfire in a nasty way.

Anita Brick: Oh yeah.

Terry Bacon: I would not go around the hiring committee, but I think you're right. It would be to go in with such stellar credentials and be so knowledgeable that they're concluding that you're, you know, head and shoulders the best candidate, and then they might accelerate it.

Anita Brick: As you said, in this environment especially, it's not super likely. So not to get discouraged if it doesn't go as fast as you would like.

Terry Bacon: No, not at all. But I've talked to a lot of people who have been out of work for a while, and they're on the verge of giving up in their search. And I tell them, don't give up, but it's really up to you. And when you're going to apply for another job, whatever it is, you know, you really, really have to do your homework and go in as an informed individual that they will see, well, additive value to them right away. And then if they're hiring, you're going to have a leg up on the process.

Anita Brick: Well, it's interesting. There was another evening student who had sort of the opposite issue as the founder of a startup company. One of the problems I'm grappling with is recruiting strong talent to be part of my early team. Do you have any suggestions about approaches that would work better in a startup environment? Sounds like those two people should get together.

Terry Bacon: It does, doesn't it? Yeah. Well, first of all, the thing to recognize—if I were consulting with the student, I would say, first of all, strongly talented people have many choices. So you have to consider what would persuade or compel them to join you. I'll go back to the simple test. Why would they say yes and why would they say no?

You can try to use an influence technique that I call appealing to values. That's, you know, being inspirational. It's what religious leaders do. It's what politicians often try to do. And many business leaders will do this as well. Some great business leaders have been very inspirational. You can try to make joining you fun, interesting, challenging, and/or aligned with their career and growth goals or so intrinsically valuable to them that they would join you rather than someone else.

But you know, candidly, most startup people, use a technique I call exchanging, and that is they give these strongly talented people equity options tied to success, or they give them, you know, the possibility for bonuses, or they find some way to reward them for participation that is going to be valuable to them. Again, the key words for me in this question were strongly talented people. And strongly talented people have a lot of options, so you have to make your option the best one in their eyes.

Anita Brick: And the leverage that you have, like you said, is your vision and excitement, but also equity in the company.

Terry Bacon: Right. Yeah. When they see that there's something strongly in it for them. And if they believe in your product and your company, if they believe in you, then they will be more likely to say yes. And you know, that last part's important. You can't be a damp dishrag. You know, you've got to be an exciting, motivating, visionary person.

And they say, wow, I want to ride on these coattails, or I want to really help this person because I believe in the vision. I believe in the possibilities of this venture. I believe this can really go somewhere where I would like to go, and that is the sort of thing that will compel them to say yes. You may have to tie it, though, to something concrete like the possibility of equity.

Anita Brick: Agree, agree. So if we can change topics a little bit, one of the Exec MBA students—and I would give you the latitude that it doesn't have to be your personal experience, but maybe someone that you know or have worked with. This question was: could you share your experience on the most difficult crisis you've experienced and how you dealt with leveraging influence, interpersonal skills, and the implications of all of that on your actions and the decisions made?

Terry Bacon: Sure. Well, I’ll use my own experience. I founded a company in 1989, a consulting firm, and grew it—that’s Lore International Institute. And, probably the most difficult business crisis I experienced was the financial downturn in 2002 and—which, you know, caused a recession. There was a tremendous downsizing. And in my industry, in fact, we lost about a third of our competitors that year. They just went under.

Anita Brick: Wow.

Terry Bacon: Yeah. And we had clients canceling contracts. We didn't downsize quickly enough, and that was my fault. We lost about half a million dollars that year, and we were a privately held firm. So we also had—the bank that had been behind us asked us to move on. That was really a severe crisis. So I was left with, you know, fewer people on staff, we were still scrambling to try to recover. We had a lot of good clients, but they were not purchasing our services at that time because they were downsizing. They were cutting, you know, to survive.

Candidly, I had to go without pay for a year and essentially live off my savings. And I also had to convince a new bank to accept us and back us. And that meant persuading them that, you know, we had the right vision, that we were a viable enterprise in the process of recovery, and that we could manage our way out of this crisis.

And I also had to convince the remaining employees to stay and help rebuild, because there was obviously a lot of poor morale after all of that. You know, at the end of the year, if we turned a profit, we weren't going to be giving bonuses because we would likely be just restoring ourselves, which was true.

So I had to use a lot of logical persuasion. I had to use appealing to values. I had to try to inspire people to work harder than before, work longer hours, and candidly, friends—in some months there was no certainty of success. So that was the biggest crisis I had. And it was through my personal relationships with people—and I think the ability to show everyone that we could come through this, and especially the bank, because they had to advance us a line of credit. We got them to give us $1 million and a line of credit—it was a small company—to cover our losses from the previous year. And in 2003, we were in the black, but just barely.

And then we had an outstanding year in 2004 and it, you know, reinforced everybody's decision to stay. And then, of course, I gave huge bonuses in 2004 to reward those people who had stuck around. That was probably my biggest business crisis that I've experienced.

Anita Brick: Well, and it sounds like you used a whole variety of influencing tactics to make that happen.

Terry Bacon: I used everything I could think of.

Anita Brick: Yeah, I bet. An alum asked, and it sounds like you didn't do too many of those, are there common mistakes that you see people make that undermine their ability to influence others?

Terry Bacon: Well, yes. And first I would have to correct what you said because I have made lots of mistakes.

Anita Brick: Okay, well, I was thinking about it during the crisis, but …

Terry Bacon: Okay, no, during the crisis, I think the evidence would say that I did enough things right, that we succeeded. And then, two and a half years ago, I sold my business to Korn/Ferry. So it worked out well.

To answer your question—are there common mistakes that actually undermine people's ability to influence others?—I would say, yes, they can fail to adapt to cultural or situational or personal differences. And, you know, I'll go back to what I said. Not everybody is going to be influenced by the same thing every time. So if you fail to adapt, you can actually undermine your capacity to influence. You can also undermine yourself culturally. If I'm doing business in Japan and I try to do it as I would do business in the US, I'm likely to experience failure because I'm not adapting to the cultural ways in which influence is used in Japan.

If I have too few techniques in my repertoire and I use the same thing for every occasion, you know, it's the old adage about if the only tool in your toolbox is a hammer, you tend to treat every problem as a nail, right?

Anita Brick: Right.

Terry Bacon: If you want to try to be adept enough in your use of techniques that you can change—and sometimes people can confuse authority with influence. They think that they can use command and control methods just because they have the authority to issue orders. That is rarely going to be the case, especially today. I mean, people in business today just don't respond to command and control the way they used to. In this knowledge economy, people don't have to do that.

And also, if people use dark-side techniques and fail to appreciate the damage they're doing, that can also undermine their ability to influence. And the dark-side techniques are things like manipulating and deceiving others. A prime example today is Bernie Madoff and his schemes, and he lied and manipulated and deceived people. Even a small amount of that, if a boss uses it, can undermine that person's ability to influence later. Or if you're intimidating or threatening in some way, those techniques can work in the short run, but ultimately they undermine you.

Anita Brick: You're right. By the way, do you have time for like two quick questions?

Terry Bacon: Sure.

Anita Brick: Okay. So along with that, there was an evening student who wanted to understand what are some things to look for when someone seems to be influencing us, and yet you don't have a whole lot of information. You're kind of going on their charisma, so to speak.

Terry Bacon: Very intriguing question. And my response would be that if you take someone who may not have the knowledge to implement a solution, but is nonetheless influential about getting others to implement it, that actually sounds like good leadership to me. I don't know that people necessarily have to have all of the ways and means of accomplishing something, but they may have the vision at the end, they may have the vision of what it should be, and they may be engaging others because they don't have the ways and means to do it.

Now, you know, what's the difference between that and manipulation? You know, it can be a fine line. I think, though, manipulation is where the influencer is deliberately not being transparent or deliberately disguising or leaving some things out. In that case, I mean, that is a dark-side technique. That is manipulation. But I think when someone says to you, I don't know how to accomplish this, but I think this is a grand place for us to go for these reasons.

If you can buy into what that person's vision is, that may in fact be a very legitimate way of influencing. I think a lot of people who have been inspirational have been just like that. They don't necessarily know the ways and means, but they know where they want to get to. Now, I don't know if that answers the question, but …

Anita Brick: I think it does. But maybe it also puts responsibility on the person who feels that he or she is being influenced.

Terry Bacon: Absolutely. Yeah.

Anita Brick: I mean, I should go and do my due diligence because if I'm not quite sure, maybe I need to go do some due diligence and see whether the vision is worth following.

Terry Bacon: Yeah, exactly. And, you know, a lot of times, if you look at some of the movements, the political and social movements that have taken place in the world, often people get into them without having a clear sense of how to get there, but they know that there is someplace they want to be. And I think it is—it depends on—you as a follower need to decide whether or not this is something I really want to do.

Anita Brick: Good point. One final question, because you talked about small things and how sometimes you create these small actions that create small victories, that build into something much bigger and much more impactful. People who are listening today, what are two or three small things that someone can start today to either expand or broaden their ability to influence?

Terry Bacon: Good question. I would say, first of all, recognize what power you have. And because power is what drives influence, and you can build your sources of power now. Yeah, I don't want to seem self-promoting, Anita, but there's actually a book that I wrote that preceded this one called The Elements of Power.

Anita Brick: Right?

Terry Bacon: Yeah. In that I outline the 10 sources of power, actually 11 sources of power, and how you can build them. Now, you don't necessarily have to go out and buy the book. I have a website called TheElementsOfPower.com, and that outlines the 10 sources of power, the 11 sources. Excuse me, one of them is, well, power, and tells people how to build them.

So I would say, if you want to be more influential, one of the things you need to do is to build your sources of power. Now one of those sources is knowledge. And so go back to what we said earlier. If you want to get into a target industry, a new industry, you need to build your knowledge power as the first step.

So build your sources of power. Another thing is that you can build your influencing skills. You know, there are methods of influencing, like appealing to values, that require certain skills to be effective. And one of the skills for appealing to values is the ability to speak well. People who are inspirational are invariably good speakers. They know how to communicate well, and they're articulate.

So if you want to use appealing to values, you need to build your ability to speak. And I think you can also learn to be more influential if you are more sensitive to what influences people and what doesn't. I'll go back to the simple test: understand why people would say yes and why they would say no. If you can get to the heart of that, you really will become more influential.

Anita Brick: I think that is great advice, and I think it's also something that we can do in the moment, and I think that can be very helpful. This is great. It's a very kind of tough topic, but one that obviously has huge impact and a great deal of interest. So thank you for doing all the research you've been doing for the last 20 years. And I know that it continues. And thank you for making the time and sharing your wisdom with us.

Terry Bacon: Oh, my pleasure, Anita.

Anita Brick: To catch up on a whole bunch of things and connect to Terry's other site, it's TerryRBacon.com. And thanks again, Terry.

Terry Bacon: Thank you Anita.

Anita Brick: And thank you all for listening. This is Anita Brick with CareerCast at Chicago Booth. Keep advancing.