Conducting a Successful Cross-Regional Job Search

Anita Brick: Hi, this is Anita Brick, and welcome to CareerCast at Chicago Booth, to help you advance in your career. Today we're speaking with Bob DeVries, who is a Booth alum and leads the Hospitality & Leisure Practice at Spencer Stuart for North America. He's a core member of the Consumer Goods and Services and Real Estate Practices as well. His work and career spans Fortune 500, privately held, and equity-backed firms and focuses on board, CEO, senior management, and design and development positions.

Bob, thank you so much for taking the time.

Bob DeVries: Thank you, Anita. Pleasure to be here.

Anita Brick: It seems like everyone is contemplating some kind of cross-regional search at some point in their career. Who should be considering a cross-regional job search and when?

Bob DeVries: Well, I mean, I think in most cases there would be obviously some reason that would lead you to, you know, that consideration in the first place. Certainly the first one that comes to mind is someone that is looking to broaden their overall experience and therefore their career growth and development. So many times I'll engage with an individual seeking global experience, primarily with an emerging market.

In other instances, it might be something that's just more opportunistic. Many people now are not only looking at careers, but they're also looking at personal and lifestyle decisions. Some might be saying, look, I'm looking to move over time to a warmer climate or something that more aligns with my personal interests and needs. And then the final one that we do periodically see is where, again, it is maybe more out of a need to make a move.

And that instance might be with a trailing spouse or something similar to that.

Anita Brick: I know there are lots of questions that came in from students and alums, but what are some strategies for conducting an efficient, either transatlantic or transpacific job search?

Bob DeVries: Well, I think the first thing you need to really try to do is look within your own organization: you know, have you established kind of a track record in the consistency of business results that is part of your ongoing career conversation with your current employer that you might be able to somehow leverage that or parlay that into an international assignment?

But usually the best time to do that is, again, as part of your ongoing career discussions or career dialogue with your leadership or with your management at the time. Not to do it when all of a sudden there's kind of an internal posting and you hear about it. Normally at that point in time, the wheels are already working kind of behind the scenes in the context of maybe leaving your current organization or you're doing a new job search.

I think a lot of it has to do with being very thorough and, you know, a robust study of that market. If I were trying to make a move to Chicago, I’d really want to understand what's occurring, what businesses are emerging and growing in that market. I might get ahold of Crain's Chicago Business or local publications and periodicals that just really study that market and where there's a lot of growth and activity occurring, because those are going to be the most logical places to try to engage an employer.

Anita Brick: That makes sense. But what are some other things that employers look for, other than … OK, I have an understanding of what the trends are in the region; I have an understanding of the culture and social issues in that region. What else would you, as you're searching for candidates, look for?

Bob DeVries: Again, I think the very first thing that we tend to underestimate that puts aside all the geographic considerations is really, what are the business results and the experience that you have that's going to be most relevant for that assignment? We'll find clients that are looking at people or executives on a global scale, and really what they first and foremost want to do is try to solve their business need or their business situation.

And if they find the right person with the right experience, the right set of consistent performance and results, many times they're willing to make a calculated risk in terms of relocating that executive. Clearly the other things that are going to help, as you said, Anita, is, you know, who ideally has some international global experience or is culturally .. can prove that they have cultural sensitivity to those regions or those markets.

And then the other thing that that obviously would be highly regarded would be language skills, where you could really, again, give you a leg up in a certain environment, a certain culture.

Anita Brick: But what if you haven't had any international assignments? How do you prove that you're ready?

Bob DeVries: You know, again, I think a lot of it is just with a very consistent track record of performance. Many times within an organization, you might have made even several changes or moves domestically. What has been your ability within those new assignments to very quickly get acclimated, listen to the needs of that business, really get to know and engage with that team and really, in a pretty short period of time, post consistent results that are impressive to that organization? That is going to be the very first thing they look at.

I think the other thing that companies are looking for is someone that they know can make that transition, or that move, pretty seamless. Are you willing to potentially go, not at necessarily an ideal time for your career, but when the company needs, you know, has that gap and they're really looking for an executive?

One of the questions that did come back with someone that was offered an opportunity to work for 3 to 6 months, you know, in China with their company. And that was brought up as a potential opportunity for them. And they were contemplating, was that a good decision or not because they were looking for something more permanent? I listened to that question.

I said, that's a great first step to get in and a pretty low cost to your employer and pretty low risk without, you know, requiring a full relocation. But to get in and really prove yourself in that environment and then ideally with an opportunity to extend that into more of a full-time situation, because again, in today's environment and economic situations in particular, it's a significant cost to relocate an executive to a new market.

If there are opportunities presented either within your current organization or even on a consulting or contractor basis to get in, prove yourself to an organization, prove your value, and then hopefully convert that into more of a full-time arrangement, I think those are ideal.

Anita Brick: That's good. I mean that the question that you refer to is one that an alum gave. There was sort of an analogous one from the other side, that an Executive MBA student gave—he or she wanted to know, OK, now I've had these different roles across regions and across functions, how do I consolidate those to make me a better and better candidate for, say, more general management positions over time?

Bob DeVries: Again, I mean, I think you really want to align that experience, ideally with a company that's going to see the tremendous value in the locations you've been. For example, if that experience has been in Asia–Pacific, you know, you really want to identify and align yourself with an organization that has really said that that is going to be an area of tremendous focus and growth and investment for them as an organization.

Find how you can then take that collection of experiences in a certain market and be of value to them as part of their management team or their leadership team.

Anita Brick: One alum asked the question, how many people should I talk to before I attempt to switch? How do I actually get good information?

Bob DeVries: The one thing I would certainly encourage is if you're currently employed in an organization, unless you really need that time to do a full and thorough search, stay employed and try to do your very best in what available time you have to really work your network to get knowledgeable, to learn the market and to get that next opportunity.

You want to stay out of a transition period there. If you can help it, you're going to have the most leverage and the most opportunity to do this search at your pace if you're still gainfully employed. But again, it will be like almost any other business decision you would make, which is you have to do a very full and thorough diligence and a rigorous diligence.

And through talking with people who have worked in those markets and maybe talking with other, you know, people within your—even the Booth alumni network is a great place to start—and then eventually going to make a calculated decision that says, this is a good time for me to go personally and, you know, and professionally. Again, overemphasize the value of your own, you know, personal network and an alumni network to help you get intelligence in these decisions.

Anita Brick: And that really addresses—there was another Exec MBA student that said, to what extent should we rely on the internet in looking for a job outside of their home region? And it sounds like that might be a starting point, but your network is going to give you information before it's public. And it also could be a conduit, correct?

Bob DeVries: Yeah. I would view the internet as really just one avenue. And frankly, I'd say one relatively small avenue that's going to actually help you find the job that you want to land. At least from my perspective, I would find the internet is a great way to do research and to really get smart and intelligent and opportunities and markets and companies because that is a wealth of information.

But in terms of actually identifying the opportunity, you really want to have a multidimensional job search, and that certainly is going to include your own personal network. And you've made, potentially, a couple of steps beyond that in terms of people who might be willing to make introductions for you into a more of an extended network, and then potentially even executive recruiters who specialize in a certain industry or a discipline that you might not have as a primary focus.

Anita Brick: But it also sounds like from the networking side, that one of the things that can help you is to really see where the need is. I may have these things and I may not have these things, but you really need the things I do have. And so I'm going to craft my story to address a need that you have. And you're really not going to find that just reading a job posting.

Bob DeVries: Absolutely. That's very well said, Anita.

Anita Brick: There was a cluster of questions that were around obstacles to actually doing this. One was from an alum who said, as a working mother who has gaps in her resume due to taking time off for children, how do I address these gaps in interviews and on my resume? So it seems like there are two pieces. One is bridging the gaps, especially gaps that were taken for personal reasons, personal choices.

And then the second is, are there any specific avenues that you would recommend to reenter the workplace, whether it is locally or in a different region?

Bob DeVries: Those are great questions. Let me try to take those maybe one at a time in terms of, you know, gaps in your resume or your career, you know, your career path and credentials—open and honest is always the very best policy there. And obviously we see those, you know, more and more in today's workforce for both men and women for different reasons.

And I think what you'll find is that truly, the more progressive employers and the ones that you want to be aligned with understand that and won't view that as any kind of issue regarding the talent, what you're going to be able to bring to bear to their organization. So I think, you know, you note those gaps in your resume and just you're prepared to talk about those as part of your interviewing process.

I think the other thing, in terms of trying to get reengaged—again, you really want to show that you're still versed in your specific industry. So you really want to spend a lot of time as you're gearing back up, in terms of research and studying and just really making sure you're prepared to talk about the issues that are occurring in your specific industry.

And that's everything from, maybe M&A activity and leadership changes—and maybe even meet with some people from a learning standpoint to, again, network back into your specific industry. And then I would say consulting is a great way to, again, get in, in a lower-risk fashion, with an organization that you might have identified as one of high interest, and get in and find a way to do a 60- to 90-day consulting assignment for them, that gives you a chance to meet people within that organization, and obviously show that you have the value and the skill set that you could bring to bear.

And many times, those consulting assignments do convert into full-time opportunity. So I would highly recommend consulting as a way to get your foot back in the door.

Anita Brick: Just to follow on that, how would you recommend that someone identify where those consulting opportunities could even be?

Bob DeVries: I think a lot of it is just going to be through both the research that you would do, as well as the networking that you would do in the, you know, the convergence of those two. I always try to tell people to look for various inflection points in an organization. So many times that might be after an acquisition was completed or after divestiture occurred, or after a new product or experience was launched.

Many times, those inflection points are where the career opportunities and hiring needs occur—usually right on the very back end of those. And if you can identify those, through your research, as well as then try to tap people who are either currently within that organization or maybe even people that are recently left that you can network with, a lot of the consulting need, many times, is generated by you identifying a need where you can add value and where you can help based on your skill set.

Anita Brick: It goes back to that like identifying—having dialogues to identify needs.

Bob DeVries: Correct. That's a pretty easy ask for you to come on, you know, for 60, 90 days to really help quickly and dramatically solve those needs for a senior executive.

Anita Brick: Another question that was really along the same lines, this time from a man who had followed his wife to Africa, and she's a physician, and she was doing some work around HIV and AIDS. And so he was in energy from the consulting side, now wants to go back into energy. And his plan is to roll this out in early 2010, which gives him some time, which is good.

But his concern is, number one, how to explain two, almost three years at that point. And would you recommend anything differently in terms of how he segues back into the energy industry?

Bob DeVries: A great question. You know, more and more now there are dual career situations where senior-level people are making a decision for a spouse. So I think that's understandable. I think the issue that's going to come up and the question you need to ask is during that two-year transition period, what, if anything, did he do to stay engaged in the industry?

Did he consult? Did he assist her with her career somewhere, or did he volunteer? One of the things that we frequently see is people list on their resume that they were—there was a gap where they were doing consulting, or it'll be Anita Brick and Associates, legitimate consulting types of project types of experiences that we'll see people do from a consulting standpoint.

And in other cases, they were merely just in a transition period. And an employer is going to really want to understand that. What did you do during that period of time? If he said, look, you know, part of that was I was just really assisting with volunteer work, and that was something that was important for me. And something that I had a lot of a passion about.

That's a good answer. That's an acceptable answer. But he needs to be prepared to answer that and not get defensive, but in a very proactive, thoughtful stance, be able to talk about that. And then in terms of getting reengaged in the energy practice, I mean, the good news is I think we're going to find that that might be one of the sectors particularly, you know, under the Obama administration, that's going to have a fair amount of focus.

So I think it's a good time actually to be getting reengaged in that sector. I think he needs to certainly, again, identify target companies that would be of the highest potential in markets that he would find of interest and try to reach in and network and reach directly out to senior level executives in those companies to get informational types of interviews.

I think also, he'll find that there are certain executive recruiters, depending on how senior level he is, that specialize in the energy sector. And again, he should certainly reach out and network with those executives in the energy practices of, you know, varied search firms and search companies.

Anita Brick: It makes sense. Someone also asked—he has experience in both the US and China in engineering—a Weekend student—and working on his MBA. His question is, how does one position oneself, again, cross-regionally, to move from being someone who specialized in a technical area to moving toward more general management?

Bob DeVries: One of the things I always try to encourage executives to do, if their long-term career goal is general management, is to potentially even look for an opportunity in another, you know, related discipline. So his kind of route to the top may be up and through more of a technical type of background like engineering, but potentially there's an adjacent role.

It could be in finance, it might be in some form of manufacturing—but again, it allows him to paint a picture for his career path as being more than just kind of one-dimensional, because at some point, to be promoted into a general manager role with a full, you know, P&L company, you start taking a calculated risk.

But for you to somehow find a way as part of your career path to, again, get experience in an adjacent or related discipline, I think helps take some of that … reduce that risk or mitigate that risk for an employer helps make more of a compelling case that at some point, I'd like to be promoted to a general management type of role, certainly having experience in multiple geographies.

So one in Asia-PAC and then maybe one here more domestically in the States, would be a great argument to, again, better prepare him for a GM role at some point in time.

Anita Brick: Interesting. And a lot of—actually, the other side of that coin: The alum said he's moved around and worked in different countries, different disciplines. What's the right balance to make a move today, being a generalist versus being a subject matter expert?

Bob DeVries: Think he has to figure out … I've now done both senior-level roles in my respective discipline, or more of a technical nature as a subject matter expert and have done general management. Where was I really at my best? Where was I the most energized when I woke up in the morning? Where do I really find my passion? Where's my passion align?

And then I think based on that, then I think he can figure out how he, you know, with his management, how he best starts to map out his career. You know, it's not always going to be a perfect path or route. There are going to be times, if you're a high performer, your organization has a need, and they're going to offer you that need internally to consider.

I recently spoke with an executive who's the chief marketing officer for a large global company in the pharmaceuticals area, and she was given an opportunity to help take and empower the company in the whole integrated marketing e-commerce space for the entire organization on a global scale. And she was wondering whether or not that would be more of a narrowing type of assignment, or whether that would be a good decision for her for a defined period of time.

Now, when she started to kind of, you know, layer that out and look at what that meant …. the person that was asking her to do that, it was the chief operating officer and probably the heir apparent to be the CEO of the company. It was for a very defined period of time, for an 18-month period of time. There was a very clear understanding about the resources that were going to be provided for her to be successful during that period of time.

And so while she had been a broad-based CMO, clearly this was going to be an area of strategic focus for the next CEO. She knew that over time that would help her actually broaden her opportunities within the company.

So I think you always have to kind of step back and look at it in context. But really, whether it's a general management route or more of a subject matter expert route to the top, certainly there are tremendous opportunities for both types of career paths.

Anita Brick: But it's a good point: also figuring out where you feel like you excel, having that passion, plus the skills of course, really propels people forward.

Bob DeVries: But I would say, you know, with any type of job decision, there are going to be just inherent trade-offs, right? And you have to figure out kind of on your matrix of grit, of what's most important, what you value more. So as people become senior in their roles and careers, it's not all just about the kind of the financial aspects or the economics people are considering.

You know, I might be willing to move to a certain geography or certain climate and take a little bit more of a trade-off in an area, maybe economics, because I really want to live in that area and they're making more lifestyle types of decisions. What is the career opportunity? What are the broader dimensions of that career choice?

And I think more and more so, I see people willing to say, I'm willing to take a lateral or maybe a lateral on my economics or even on title to help advance another aspect of my career, because it's the experience I want. What's the leader that I really want to work for? Or it's a geography that I really want to live in, and I'm willing to make some other trade-offs in terms of what's important and what I value.

And I would just encourage people to really step back and say, you know, be honest with yourself. What is most important for you at this point in time, in your career, in your life? And look at all this in context.

Anita Brick: Makes sense. You mentioned that this woman was a CMO, and there was another question from an alum, and it sounds like the alum may be struggling against not having brand marketing experience. And his or her question was, why do CEOs and boards of directors continue to hire outdated brand marketers? Should they not be redesigning their role toward the mindset of acquiring customers at the lowest margin cost through emerging dominant channels like search marketing? We can have a whole conversation just about this question, but it seems like the question underneath the question is, how does someone get to that point if they don't have brand marketing experience, and are there regions that are more open to that?

Bob DeVries: It's a great question. So first of all, just by way of a little, you know, background, we do a lot of CMO work. Last year alone, we placed 650 CMOs around the world. So we have a lot of experience in that area. The one thing I'll tell you is the CEO and senior management are really the ones making the decision on that marketing officer assignment.

So it's really—the board would typically not be involved. So it would be a CEO of a company. And I think more and more so, you're definitely seeing them biased towards integrated marketing, CRM, e-commerce—the more one-to-one types of marketing experience that are relevant and valued. The one thing that will just never go out of date, though, for a really capable CMO, is a broad-based business thinker.

There's almost a box that you have to check that says, does this person have the right technical knowledge and experience to be successful as an exceptional marketer? But more and more so, a really great CMO is attached at the hip with that CEO, because so much of that CEO’s success is based on driving the top line for that business, right?

And I think one of the things that brand marketers do a very good job of developing is broad-based business thinkers and generalists. They not only get some very relevant marketing or technical experience and skills, but they also—at P&G, Kraft, and General Foods will talk about ability in the next generation of general managers. So I would just encourage you that the skills that you're developing in direct and integrated marketing, it's only going to continue to be more and more biased in that direction.

And it's certainly where the market's heading. But as you have opportunities to gain additional exposure and experience into operations, into finance, into other disciplines that would make you a more well-rounded executive. That's the combination that you want over time that's going to make you successful.

Anita Brick: If you don't have a traditional brand marketing—which really does expose you to all of those—and asks you to integrate all of those into marketing, having come from that kind of role myself too, what you're saying is that you create your own by sitting in different functional seats.

Bob DeVries: Absolutely.

Anita Brick: Good. No, that's very good advice. Do you have time for two more questions?

Bob DeVries: Of course.

Anita Brick: There are two variations of the same theme. So one person … both of them said that, you know, as a single guy, I've always had the luxury of going where the work takes me or relocating for the best job. Now I'm in the process of putting down roots and becoming part of a more permanent community.

I've identified a couple of regions where I'd be interested in settling. However, given my historical mobility, I don't have the normal, compelling reasons like family, house, for choosing any of these cities. What would you advise? And the second person was asking the same thing: how does he convince employers to consider and hire a nonlocal resident? How does one create a compelling reason that would move employers?

Bob DeVries: This will sound somewhat repetitive, but again, so much of it will be for you to be a valued executive, a high-potential executive in that organization. There is a little bit of a “bloom where you're planted” philosophy here, which is in your last assignment, as you're moving into a career conversation with your leadership and you're going through maybe a performance review or discussion, if you're somebody that is high potential and really has added tremendous value in your last couple of roles, it's in their best interest to make sure that you continue to grow in your career and your interests, and they're going to they want to find ways to retain you.

And even if you don't have personal ties to a location, I mean, I'll hear somebody tell me, geez, I'd really love to get to maybe the Bay Area in San Francisco or a market like that. That's just a personal preference. If there are business operations in that market and there are specific needs, then again, the way to do that is just, you know, have a plan, full dialogue with your leadership.

It starts by becoming almost invaluable within that company, where it's in their best interest to invest in your career. And that's both your career interests and your personal interests. And then usually if there's a plan mapped out to get you there, you know, good things can happen. Where it becomes more challenging is if they have other, you know, more viable options already currently in that market, then it's not worth the additional 30% premium on your salary to relocate you from the East Coast to the West Coast of the US if they already have options in that market.

So again, a lot of it will come down to a pretty thoughtful—it's a business decision on their part. But if you're somebody of high potential that they really want to retain, usually you're in a good position to generate a dialogue around what would be most personally, professionally desirable for you.

Anita Brick: How would this change if you were not inside the company, and you were doing a new search?

Bob DeVries: A new search?

Anita Brick: Yeah, yeah.

Bob DeVries: Again, one thing that I really encourage you to do, and this is maybe a little bit tactical, but as part of your search, I mean, you can obviously do a lot of the things that we talked about in terms of reaching out to the network, maybe trying to use recruiters to help you access a specific market. But the other thing I would really encourage you to do is find a way to make appointments and visit that market live.

There’s going to be much more of a lasting impression if you sit across the table from a recruiter or you're having informational interviews with people within a specific company or a specific market. The ones that … I happen to be based in Miami. It's more for personal reasons, because it's the part of the country I desire to live in.

But people that find a way to say, you know what? Three weeks from now, I'm actually going to be in Miami. Is there a way we could get together live and meet for lunch or meet for a coffee? You know, I'm usually willing to make that appointment, and I think you'll find the same thing with executives within companies.

But you want to really find a way to be in that market, immerse yourself in it, and really try to schedule appointments, to get access. And really, I think, accelerate your job market. Just being very candid, in today's economic environment, there's a significant number of job seekers in the market are in transition, and you need that little extra advantage to the extent that you can. And I think part of the way you do that is being there in person.

Anita Brick: I've heard that, and you're taking it a lot more seriously. I spoke to someone and he said he didn't really have tons of funds to do that. What he was able to do is he had good friends in all the locations that he was targeting, and they were generous and allowed him to crash on their couch.

He wasn't a 28-year-old Full-Time MBA. He was an Exec MBA with certainly a lot of experience under his belt. He decided he needed to really be frugal with his money, and also it helped him strengthen the relationships he had with the people with whom he was staying.

Bob DeVries: Right. I mean, the other thing I have seen people do is target specific industry conferences or events. And you might say, well, geez, I mean, it cost me $1,900 to get into that event. I can't afford that. I'm in transition. They didn't pay the entrance fee. It's not even about being in the meeting sessions, but they worked the convention floor of the hall.

They worked the local Starbucks down in the basement of the hotel. So they never actually paid to attend, but they found a way to get to Atlanta. And for three days, all the primary leaders in that industry—and they were very thoughtful in terms of scheduling appointments with industry executives and with leaders. And that was a great thought and a very, I think, a creative strategy to gain access to their market.

Anita Brick: Very good idea. If you were contemplating a cross-regional job change, what would be the top three things you would be doing?

Bob DeVries: I would, first of all, I would try not to make my parameters too narrow. If it’s one specific city, that's going to limit your search quite a bit. Instead of saying San Francisco, could I say I'm open to the West Coast of the United States? Try not to start with your parameters too narrow. You might be a little more open and opportunistic about what you might see.

Then I'm really going to try to just really get connected through research newspapers, the internet, alumni network recruiters. I'm really going to take a very proactive approach and really make a dedicated effort to get connected into that specific market. I'd say the third—I'm really going to try to find a way to get to that market, if I can, live, make appointments, be very disciplined, but try to find a way to make a more lasting impression by being there in person.

I always encourage people to make the process of getting a job. Make that your full-time job. Wake up, stay in your normal routine, get up, have your workout, whatever you would normally do. Find a location to go to. Sit and really put in a good, hard eight-hour, 10-hour day that you would normally do if you were out in the working world, particularly if you're in transition, and make the process of getting the job, make that your job.

And if you keep that same level of discipline and focus and almost manage it like a project like you would for an employer, I'm confident you're going to be successful.

Anita Brick: Thank you, Bob. And I mean, you're a testament to this. You've had a very long, illustrious career and you've had a few little detours along the way, but you kept moving ahead, and I really admire that in you.

Bob DeVries: Well, thank you. It's been a pleasure. And the great news is that being a Booth alum, that's always going to serve you well too. You'll see that in the market.

Anita Brick: And thanks a lot for taking the time.

Bob DeVries: Thank you Anita. Take care.

Anita Brick: Thank you all for listening. This is Anita Brick with Chicago Booth. Keep advancing.