Creating a Compelling Executive Brand

Anita Brick: Hi, this is Anita Brick, and welcome to CareerCast at Chicago Booth. To help you advance in your career. Today we're delighted to be speaking to Booth alum Tom Doctoroff. He is the CEO of JWT Asia-Pacific, the region's largest advertising agency and one of Asia's leading experts in brand marketing and cross-border brand management. He is the author of a few books, but the most recent one, which I think is really terrific and I really enjoyed reading it, is Twitter is Not a Strategy Rediscovering the Art of Brand Marketing. He is a sought after keynote speaker for events such as the International Advertising Association's Global Symposium, the University of Chicago's Global Management Conference, and the JPMorgan Asia-Pacific Equity Conference. He is an undergrad from northwestern and as I said, Absalom. Tom, thanks so much for making the time.

Tom Doctoroff: My pleasure. Thanks for having me.

Anita Brick: Well, and I know that you are usually based in Asia, but today you are in New York. So thank you for letting us eat into a little bit of your holiday.

Tom Doctoroff: It's my pleasure. Good.

Anita Brick: I want to jump in. An executive MBA student said, hi, Tom. I'm in the executive MBA program and plan to move from a technical role, which is my current brand, to more general management. In your book, you talk about the importance of bringing a relationship mindset to everything that a brand does. How could this approach help me change market perceptions of me and alter employers behavior? To see me in a new GM role?

Tom Doctoroff: When we in advertising talk about a brand idea. We talk about a fusion of two things. One is insight into consumers, what the motivation is that they have. What explains their behavior and preference on one hand, but on the other hand, something that's very unique about the product or the brand. And then we bring that into something called a brand idea, which is a relationship between consumer and brand.

So what you need to do, I believe what this gentleman needs to do is two things. One, distill what his expert power is, what is it that he does in a way that's different from other people, based on his past experience as well as his education? Secondly, he needs to really be thinking of who his market target is.

What do they want? What type of general management does he want to go into, and what then would his employers be looking for in terms of their own organization? So don't fixate only on what you do well, but actually do the type of investigative research into the motivations of the types of companies that you want to join their gaps, and then how you can fill their gaps, get out of your own skill set, and then start thinking about how you can motivate and be motivating to your market target, which is the type of company you want to be employed by.

Anita Brick: This goes very nicely with a question from a weekend student, who says there are many tools to find the needs and desires of consumers. If you are exploring career advancement opportunities, what methods would you use to find the deep needs and desires of potential employers?

Tom Doctoroff: I think there is absolutely no replacement, no substitute for what I have always just called the informational interview. Before you start a job search in earnest, you need to learn about what it is that makes a given industry tick and what the flash points are, and what the points of anxiety are and what keeps people up at night in the industry that is interesting to you, and what people's ambitions are that are leading companies in those ambitions, instead of just simply writing a resume, sending it out and then sharpening your sales pitch, really gain insight into the sectors that are interesting to you.

Again, you shouldn't cast a wide net. You should sharpen your search. You should sharpen the areas that you're interested in, the types of companies that you're interested in. And then just write to the CEO and say, look, this is a no strings attached request. I really would just like to seek the benefit of your own insight and your own understanding and your own issues as you do your job, so I can learn a little bit more about it.

Informational interview is, I think, golden and it was my secret. It has always been my secret. And whenever I have people that ask me to share my experience, of course I'm happy to help that person. And by the way, most bosses like to talk about themselves a little bit so you can stroke the ego just a tad.

Anita Brick: Well, it sounds like you're very generous with your time. A lot of CEOs won't even consider that. What is it that you do, and what would you recommend that someone does to get above that noise so they actually get that 5 or 10 or 20 minutes with someone who is senior who could have those insights.

Tom Doctoroff: First off, I think it's not so much of a time consuming offer that I give because I get these requests very, very rarely. When I do get a request like this that shows that somebody has done a little bit of research into what I do and who I am, and then position themselves as somebody who could benefit from any insight that I can potentially offer.

That's a very unusual occurrence. So it's not like I'm being besieged, you know, every week with ten requests for informational discussions. It happens quite rarely. And it's very refreshing when you have somebody that is revealing insight into what makes an industry tick as they request further exposure to my own perspective. So I think that we shouldn't overestimate how few people actually do this.

Anita Brick: I would agree there was someone I know who had been a senior at Sony, she said during the class. Please feel free. I'm happy to do an informational interview for a class of 30. Maybe one person reached out.

Tom Doctoroff: Yeah, and I've never quite been able to understand why this is, you know, and I've been saying this for practically 30 years. Oops. I just dated myself. But the fact is, most people, I think, are looking for a quick return of investment of their time, which I think is a mistake. And secondly, I also think that most people don't think the other person that is on the other side of the desk is willing to do that.

I think most people are empathetic. I think most people want to help other people. I think most people are capable of putting themselves into other people's shoes. I certainly remember with vivid detail, you know, the uncertainty that I was going through as I was looking for jobs. And I think most people can relate to that. So the point is to give the impression that the discussion will be stimulating and that the interviewee, in fact, can learn from the perspective of somebody that is sharing his experience and his hopes. So both people stand to gain. But you're right. Most people just don't think that it's something that's going to pay off, but it does.

Anita Brick: That's great. Switching gears just for a moment, here, another executive MBA student said, I love the idea of creating multidimensional connections with my target audience and being able to charge more for a product. What advice would you give a mid-career executive in creating this type of loyalty with me as the product?

Tom Doctoroff: That's quite a question. What I would say is that there is a proliferation of social media platforms right now, and each one of them has a different consumption pattern. You need to be thinking what your brand idea is and what you represent and have that expressed differently to the different channels. For example, Twitter is not something frivolous.

Twitter is something for you to share your own intellectual interests with. So when somebody looks at your Twitter feed, you know, they're able to say, well, this is what this guy is really investing his time in learning more about. And it's also a great tool of engagement and dialog. Facebook, on the other hand, is a little bit more broadcast.

It's a little bit more amenable and LinkedIn to project your accomplishments. And no matter which media you use to demonstrate who you are. It all needs to be integrated together into one idea that you are reinforcing, albeit through different channels. So every social media platform is a different expression of who you are and your proposition. The first step, of course, is to define that proposition, to define your own brand idea, your own fusion of unique brand offer and insight into the people that you want to form relationships with.

Anita Brick: Got it to that point. I mean, there are lots of different platforms, whether it's LinkedIn or Twitter or Facebook or, you know, a whole bunch of them. So an evening student said, I know that Klout is a narrow measure of the value of my personal brand. What other metrics, quantitative or qualitative, would you recommend to assess the potential value of my personal brand?

Tom Doctoroff: The way that we measure engagement with a brand is time spent with a brand. And really the question is, how many of your postings and what you put on social media are eliciting active responses from people? How many of your followers or people that you are engaging with through social media are stimulated enough to engage in a dialog with you?

If you are just broadcasting yourself without really having a deeper, more bilateral relationship with those folks, then you can assume that your broadcast is hosting a message and committing the marketing equivalent sin of speaking. As a manufacturer, you have to engage in two way dialog. So ask yourself the question as you go through your social media channels every day, are you engaged with dialog or are you just projecting?

Anita Brick: It's a very good point, because a lot of people still feel that putting it out there, someone is going to catch it, but it's not necessarily true. Actually, it's kind of rarely true.

Tom Doctoroff: Absolutely. I mean, any time that you're dealing with digital, you know, or any media in general, there's two types of media. One is what I call lean back media that usually is broadcast media, but not exclusively. But that's when you define your message. But learn in the media. And that's a lot of digital platforms that's empowered through technology. These are media that deepen engagement, deepen dialog, deepen the intimacy, the bilateral interaction between consumer and brand.

You need both top down marketing, which is a clear message definition, but you also need bottom up marketing, which is triggering involvement by consumers and participation in the proposition. And different media do different things. You cannot have a modern marketing campaign unless you have aligned top down marketing and bottom up marketing, and this applies both to individuals who are trying to position themselves and to brands.

Anita Brick: That it makes perfect sense. Another evening student said, I understand we live in a world where consumers are more interested in experience than product features. That said, how do I give a potential employer an experience of me even before they hire me for a full time job or an internship?

Tom Doctoroff: Well, first of all, people are not interested in experience for the sake of experience in marketing. When we trigger participation or when we trigger consumers having an experience, we always have a behavioral objective in mind that leads to purchase, whether it's telling more people in terms of brand advocacy, an active recommendation, whether it's using more frequently, whether it's buying more, whether it's actually learning more.

So point number one is whatever experience you offer, you have to define what excuse. The cliche is that the KPI is going to measure the success of that experience. That's point one. Point two is I do not think that we should ever forget about what the product offer is, or the brand offer that has to be baked into everything that you do.

But then when it comes to experience, the best thing that you need to do is offer a new perspective, an unexpected combination of new ideas that lead to a creative thought that can be useful for the person in an industry, everybody is always trying to learn. Nobody thinks that they have a monopoly on truth. And this is particularly true in a world where technology is constantly reframing the competitive set and the frame of reference. Long story short, use your creativity to give people a different perspective so that they can bring it into their discussions as they pursue their job. That's the experience people want is new ideas, but ideas that are rooted in the relevance of what they do.

Anita Brick: Well, absolutely. And you see that both in terms of messaging that is in writing like a resume and also in story. Switching gears a little bit in executive MBA, students said, I have extensive international experience in business and finance, especially in China, Canada and the U.S. you've successfully built your brand in Asia. Can you please advise how I might be able to build my own brand in the U.S.? Or should I take advantage of my cultural and language background to build my brand back in the Asia market?

Tom Doctoroff: Well, this is always a point of view that I've had, and I can tell that this person is probably an Asian asking the question. I personally believe that cultural insight and familiarity is a glow that should surround a core expertise. The first question that anybody needs to ask before they start exploring international careers or even multicultural careers, is what is their expert power?

And let's just call it a functional expert power. What do they do better than other people? Because when you go abroad and when you enter a multicultural environment, there are a lot of, quote, local people, unquote, that you're competing with that are probably going to be less expensive to hire. And also they're going to boast operational fluency in whatever they need to do on a day to day basis that you won't have.

So in order to overcome that, you have to transcend local relevance with expert power first. So my advice is, first, sharpen your weaponry. That is culture non dependent. Like for example, for me, you know, I was very skilled at consumer insight and proposition writing and benefit structuring. So my strategic capabilities were developed in the United States in a very respected training ground.

And then when I landed in Asia, I didn't understand the culture, I didn't understand the environment. But at least I have the expert power in terms of advertising strategy. And that's what I use to start building my brand.

Anita Brick: Got a little bit of a Segway here, a weekend. Students said planned engagement is an important idea. The question is, how do you recommend that an individual do this without losing the spontaneous and emotional component?

Tom Doctoroff: Oh boy, these are such interesting questions. Well, when a consumer buys a product, he doesn't just snap it up spontaneously unless it's a so-called impulse purchase. But most products go through a buying process, a cycle leading from the initial phases of consideration and preference. Before that, of course, there is information search. Then there's the moment of truth when you hand over the credit card at the cash register.

And then there's the post-purchase aspect, which you need to reinforce positive experience, which leads to repeat purchase. When you're looking for a job, it's exactly the same thing. You need to position yourself at different phases of the buying journey. And I'm using this in quotes, obviously. So at the very beginning, you want to make sure that you are positioning yourself very broadly, developing and projecting your brand.

But then as you move closer in, you have to switch much more into an engagement, a dialog, something that deepens the involvement. Again, you define your proposition. You say what it is that you are that makes you unique. You frame your relevance in a way that you as a marketer are defining. And then as you move further in, you start having more bilateral communications based on your insight in terms of what somebody knows. First, define yourself, then move in and establish the relationship and then enter a dialog.

Anita Brick: Got it. So ultimately it's not something sterile or, you know, really predictable. You are really establishing a relationship, a bilateral relationship, a dialog which is always going to have some element of spontaneity and certainly the emotional component.

Tom Doctoroff: Absolutely. I mean, the entire essence of engagement is rooted in a spontaneous bottom up, a freedom. The key thing to understand is your employer or your prospect or your target. These people are human beings with beating hearts. These people have hopes. They have fears. They have dreams. They have barriers. They have hurdles. They have pride. These human elements are always front and center, and the process of hiring talent is such an important strategic opportunity.

And it's also the source of the greatest source of anxiety for people. So if you are establishing this in partnership, that is mutual, dynamic, interactive, in the right way, at the right time, you will have loyalty, you will have an emotional connection, you will have intimacy, which is ultimately what technology enables intimacy, intimate connections.

Anita Brick: Got it. It's so interesting how so many things have changed. I mean, technology has made it possible to be more connected and in some ways less connected.

Tom Doctoroff: That's the irony. And then it is you who has to make a choice. One has to make a choice of whether you're going to let technology depersonalize you, or whether you're going to use it to build relationships and reinforce intimacy. This is how you view the world and how you view technology and technology is there for you to harness.

Anita Brick: I totally agree. One thing that has emerged also, and I know you talk about this in the book, is brand cynicism and an alarmist ad is a brand cynicism you mentioned in your book. And that applies to products I believe also applies to people. What are a couple of things you would recommend to break through that negative noise that could help me actually strengthen my personal brand?

Tom Doctoroff: One key thing is know your target market, know who you are talking to and what their motivations are. As soon as you make this about them and not about you, then cynicism drops away. Cynicism comes when people feel like they're being sold something. Cynicism comes when things are commercial and not authentic, and the antidote to an authentic or in.

I'm not sure what the word is in authenticity. That is insight into consumer behavior. So understand the meat needs, the motivations, the preferences of your target market, and then you won't be confronted with cynicism.

Anita Brick: Got it? Another alarm I think gets this point, but once a little advice, he said, I've worked in both North America and Asia and clearly realized that I am a better cultural fit in the U.S. that said, what would you recommend that I do to make my personal brand more agile and less rigid and let's say beyond therapy.

Tom Doctoroff: And I'd say beyond therapy?

Anita Brick: I think what he was saying is, okay, let's assume that I've considered therapy. Let's talk about others as therapy.

Tom Doctoroff: The key thing about engaging with other cultures is asking a basic question. Are you interested in other cultures? Are you interested in knowing people in other cultures? And when you are confronted with a different way of doing something, what's your gut reaction? Do you recoil at it or are you curious about it? I'm pretty good. Having spent a lot of time in Asia at very quickly being able to identify who's Asia friendly, who's not Asia friendly, who's China friendly, who's not China friendly, and ultimately, it's whether or not you sense you have an affinity for the people that you're going to be working with and for the cultures that you're going to be swimming.

In short, the answer to the question is no yourself, no whether or not this is you or not. Don't swim upstream because you can never fake empathy. And by the way, in Asia, any whiff of patronizing, any whiff of viewing yourself. Sorry for using a geopolitical term hegemonic some cultural hedge feminism that is extremely alienating because people don't feel confident in their own individual identities.

They need to feel like they can trust you to do two things. One, point them to where you are going to go as a team in terms of destination objective. But secondly, make them feel safe as you climb up the mountain to that shining city on a hill. And ultimately it comes down to empathy. Do you like different cultures? If not, don't fake it. Give it up. Stay in the United States.

Anita Brick: Got it. Do you have time for a couple more questions?

Tom Doctoroff: Sure.

Anita Brick: Okay, great. This question actually, I think, is asking for a little professional advice. Another alum says, what advice would you give a Western brand of privately consumed goods? Home interiors, textiles, attempting to establish and grow a profitable position in the Chinese consumer market?

Tom Doctoroff: Well, this is a tough one, okay, because the golden rule of marketing in China is that people are willing to pay a price premium for goods that are consumed outside the home. And that's everything from cars to mobile phones to a cup of coffee and a pint of Starbucks ice cream. Then they are willing to pay a price premium inside the home.

So in order to justify a price premium, you have to maximize public consumption. And this often affects the business model as well. But it seems like this. The marketer is asking about our expensive, relatively expensive goods that are consumed inside the home. So you basically have two choices: one, you identify a very narrow market, and target very wealthy people that are willing to invest in this type of high priced, upscale interior furnishing.

Point 1 or 4, or you again, maximize public consumption by positioning your goods inside the home where people from the outside are most likely to see them. So if you're talking about lowering, for example, you know, the front door or the front area is what counts, not the kids bathroom. If you're talking about refrigerators versus appliances, you know refrigerators will work because you can point to them from the front door.

Ultimately, you want to make sure that you're maximizing the ability for other people to see them when they visit a house. But if you just position it based on indulgence, sophistication, enjoyment of luxury, that's not going to be a very compelling proposition. Another golden rule of marketing in China is that every product is an investment. Every product has to yield dividends, usually in the form of life advancement or face, which is the currency of forward movement. So make sure that you are not defining these products with internalized reward. It's got to be externalized.

Anita Brick: Got it. Thank you. Very insightful. Finally, one last question. What are three things that a person could do today to begin or take the next step to discover and create a compelling executive brand one.

Tom Doctoroff: Know what you're interested in before you start developing your own brand, because you're going to have to target yourself. So make sure you have your interest clear and why you are passionate about that. Two is to define your own unique brand, to offer very clearly what it is about you that generates expert power. And third, start thinking of you not just as a product, but as a leader, making sure that you are developing your own interpersonal skills so that you have the confidence to persuade. Because ultimately it's about leadership. It's not just about expertise, it's about the ability to articulate the abstract, to convince people of things that can be proven. And this, of course, is rooted in both insight into your market targets and your audience, but also a crystallization of your unique brand offer.

Anita Brick: That's great. Any other words of wisdom for us today?

Tom Doctoroff: Can't think of anything except for I believe that a business school education is wonderful because it's holistic and just don't expect it to yield the dividend in some kind of formulaic manner. The biggest competitive advantage that anybody can have in presently, any industry, is a broad worldview, and that's what Chicago Booth offers. And I have been extremely fortunate to have benefited from a booth education.

Anita Brick: Excellent. Thank you so much. My pleasure. Just as a reminder, Tom's book, which I enjoyed tremendously, it's called Twitter is Not a Strategy Rediscovering the Art of Brand Marketing. And thank you all for listening. This is Anita Brick with a CareerCast at Chicago Booth. Keep advancing.