Conducting an Effective Cross Regional Job Search

Anita Brick: Hi, this is Anita Brick, and welcome to CareerCast at Chicago Booth. To help you advance in your career. Today, we're delighted to be speaking with Carolyn Chan. She is managing partner for the Chief Human Resources Office Practice Asia Pacific at Heidrich and Stargell. In addition, she's a partner in the consumer markets practice and co-chair of the Singapore Chapter of Women Corporate Directors and Diversity Initiatives.

Carolyn holds a Bachelor of Science degree from the University of Massachusetts and of course, an MBA from Chicago. Carolyn, I know it's really early for you, so thank you so much for getting up and having this conversation with us.

Carolyn Chan: I'm happy to do it.

Anita Brick: People know it's really important to have assignments outside of our home countries. It's clear that makes us much more marketable and have a much more enduring career. A lot of people get a little nervous about how to make that happen. What are some things to consider before embarking on a cross-regional search? Either inside or outside of your company?

Carolyn Chan: I think there are a couple of things that are key. Being clear about what you want to do and why you're doing it. Doing the research. Having a good standing in the country that you're thinking about. Why do you want to embark on this? Where do you hope to get from that experience? So I think being prepared, being just aware of what that might look like for you, that's important.

And I think one thing that I'm seeing more and more is younger people working on this. And I think it's easier to make that move when you're younger and I think companies recognize this as well and are often looking to recruit people and get them onto a mobility track, if you will. You know, having that person that's willing to make a few moves and be open to those possibilities, because I think after a certain period, that's where the learning really becomes important.

How to manage and lead across different countries. So if you look at that career progression, you know, having this strong functional skill set, having an industry or within one industry group, different exposure, is really important.

Anita Brick: It's interesting because to me it is a little bit. At the other end of the spectrum, there was a weekend student who said, okay, so what if I haven't started early on, said, how do I get MBA level international experience? First of all, with 15 years of work experience, all of it has been in or around New York City. So if you're at the point where now you have 15, 20 years of work experience, how do you manage it from that end?

Carolyn Chan: If you are key to looking at going abroad and knowing where you can apply those 15 years is going to be important. So getting specific about what you've done in those 15 years, and then getting clear about function and looking around to see where that would be most applicable. So leveraging the 15 years, it may take a few steps getting outside of that one city state, if you will, before you go across.

Anita Brick: But it's not hopeless. If you have 15 years. It's just a different kind of approach and strategy. It sounds.

Carolyn Chan: Like. Absolutely, you know, doing the research is going to be key, you know, really taking those 15 years, where would it be most applicable starting to build a network?

Anita Brick: It's a good point. That was another question. This time from an executive MBA student. And I think this is, on the one hand, tricky. On the other hand, it's easier because of technology. But what are some things that someone can do to manage their professional relationships, their network globally?

Carolyn Chan: As you say, it's much easier now than it was ever before because of how connected the world is. So I think in terms of managing personal and professional relationships, it's important to really continue to build those networks if you have reasons to develop professionally. For example, if you are at a company that's international, having the ability to connect with other countries is important, and then really trying to leverage the times that you have in a specific country.

Anita Brick: I agree with you, and I know this is going to sound really geeky, but I keep a spreadsheet because I want to make sure that I stay in touch with people because it's so easy to friend people on Facebook or link with them on LinkedIn and not keep all that going. I guess everybody does it differently. I do it with a spreadsheet. I want to make sure that I connect. Even some of the time zone differences wash away, because we're used to having meetings at all different hours of the day at night.

Carolyn Chan: Yes. That's right. With international connections, I think having warm connections is always easier than a cold connection. So from a professional standpoint, if you are trying to make a connection, looking for an introduction, especially now with LinkedIn and a number of the tools out there or your Chicago alum connections, you know, it's always easier to ask for help. I keep one by country. You know, I still have some business cards, believe it or not. And I have countries where I know people that help me stay connected.

Anita Brick: That totally makes sense. With the competition so great. There's so many people out there who have great experience and advanced degrees. One of the weekend students said language and cultural agility seems very important today. I understand this with that and deep functional or strong relevant experience, what are some additional things that employers look for?

Carolyn Chan: I think the key thing that is needed today is leadership. And how I define that is the ability to articulate a vision, create an alignment within that commitment to be able to do that across boundaries is probably one of the hardest things to do, and we don't necessarily take a course on leadership, one of these skills that are just acquired by experience.

We are constantly looking for good leaders. Cross-Cultural leaders. Issues today that are coming up are so much more complex than ever before. The number one thing that we look for in leaders is really this ability to lead change, to have leadership, courage and the ability to build those relationships cross-culturally. That is very key when you know, we do any search. It's interesting.

Anita Brick: Tell me what leadership courage means.

Carolyn Chan: Leadership is not something that everybody aspires to do and to be. You know, when you think about leadership, it is the one that's taking charge and it is the one that gets followers. Surprisingly, you know, there are some people with the titles who may not necessarily have followers. The courage to really step out and lead is something that is not with everybody. And it's tough. In times like this, there's.

Anita Brick: No clear paved route, there's no roadmap. In some ways, people have to trust themselves enough to be able to make tough decisions because in many cases you don't know if it's going to work or not.

Carolyn Chan: Absolutely. And I think this is where it really takes someone that wants to do this and willing to do this, and is not afraid to be the one responsible for whatever risk, whatever decisions, whatever may come their way.

Anita Brick: Those are good points. How do you identify those as another student who said, how do you get noticed, especially when you're looking for opportunities outside of your country? How do you demonstrate things like leadership, courage when it's not always obvious in a resume?

Carolyn Chan: I think it is listening to the examples, like you say, hearing the stories. It is things like pushing back, saying what needs to be said. Not everyone knows what the right answers are always going to be, but I think having that conviction, communication is key and it's not so much what they do sometimes, but it's also how they bounce back, how someone is able to make a decision even if they make the wrong decisions. How do you then turn it around, doing it in a way that can gain confidence of people?

Anita Brick: Oh, I agree, how do you, as a recruiter, identify someone when you're looking for candidates? How do you identify those qualities in someone? Is it through other people saying, well, you should talk to so-and-so because they've done this and they give you examples or how do you identify them?

Carolyn Chan: I think it's a combination. You know, a lot of our work is sourcing and just understanding the landscape of a certain industry or a sector reputation. You know, I often say to people, there's a lot that you can't control, but the one thing you can control is your reputation. So a lot of it is really word of mouth, you know, as we do as we conduct searches, you know, some of this information is public.

They could be written up in an article or word of mouth, somebody that may have worked for them, somebody that's been in a competing company. You do hear and you do seek out references. So it's not very difficult to just get a bit of a color around somebody. And then of course, you know, through interviews, through other references.

Anita Brick: That's a good point. A weekend student asked, all right, I want to look for a job outside of my country today. I think there's an ongoing misconception about what the role of an executive recruiter especially, he said, is it advise to go through recruiter and then the other part of it, which I think is probably the main thing for us to talk about, is how important is it to be physically present in the country or region when you're searching for a job there?

Carolyn Chan: Nowadays, it seems that the world is definitely flat and easy to access. Anyone now with FaceTime and Skype is always the preference for a hiring company to have the person nearby or accessible. But at the same time, these days, technology has made it so much easier. I think when it comes time to actually move to the US of a country, that's where it's easier if they're close by. So I think the whole interview process, while it's always easier to meet face to face and that's always the preference, especially when we get down to a shortlist. You know, that first initial interview is not as important as it was before.

Anita Brick: So just a little follow up question to that. I've heard, and I'd love to get your thoughts on this, that if you're moving farther away so you're not coming from China to Singapore, but maybe you're coming from France or you're coming from Argentina or the States. It's really a big stretch geographically, that people have more of an advantage if they actually make time to go visit that region, as they're looking for a job, because it shows a level of commitment. Do you feel that that's still true? I think.

Carolyn Chan: It depends. Number one, I think for any hiring company, there's always a high preference that the person knows the country. If someone's coming from France or the US into a place like Singapore for the very first time, I think it does say something. If they are willing to spend the time there and get to know the country and build those networks, the more that time they can spend to devote to being in the country of the the place that they want to work is always desirable.

Anita Brick: It goes back to what you said before, and this is true everywhere. That's a relationship that mitigates perceived risk. You'll find out about things if you have that network. So it's important to build that. And on LinkedIn today you can even see where your network sits. You can see what percentage of your network is in different countries, different cities.

I love that feature. And then some people I know will deliberately bill, that's our network in a country or in a region where they want to make a move. Can we switch gears just for a little bit, because there were a bunch of questions about mitigating risk. You're starting with someone who is a very excited evening student. And I'm very fortunate to have found a job in another region. Yet I'm very nervous about the move. What are some key things I can do to ensure a successful experience?

Carolyn Chan: So I always recommend it to anyone starting a new job. The first 90 days book talks about anyone moving into a role and what it takes to be successful. Just really knowing the landscape, scoring a few quick wins early on, just understanding and then the players separating out both the risk of the job as well as the country. So I think from a professional standpoint that's going to be key is really just understanding that organization for the country.

I think it's important to just know as much as you can before you move to the country, building the networks outside of work, as well as really understanding the landscape, the subtleties of that culture. Just research, doing as much research as you can before you get to a country, what to look out for, what to ask, and knowing what you don't know. Just being really open to that. Having that ability to be open to anything and everything to question, to seek, to understand is a key critical trait.

Anita Brick: Well, it's true because you want to make sure that you're open, because otherwise people will feel like once you get everything, you want everyone to conform to you, rather than being part of the new culture.

Carolyn Chan: Right? Right. Absolutely.

Anita Brick: There was a question that actually came in two different forms, one from an alum and one from an evening student. There was a comment for us in the comment that people in Asia prefer face to face conversations, rather than phone, or sending a resume through email. How do you make a connection with someone if you're not on the ground?

But he was saying that he had approached people. Very few responses, mostly email, few phone calls. Is there some way to break through that when you can't physically be there? Or do you need to physically be there.

Carolyn Chan: With any relationship apps, it is always better to have face to face versus an email. I think with Asia there is the place, a high context with trust and trust being something that needs to be earned versus, you know, I think in a Western society, you know, trust is sort of given to you until you've broken it.

And so I think with the Asian context, it is easier if you have a warm connection than an email. And I think that goes for maybe other cultures as well. Maybe not Asia, maybe just a little bit higher in Asia, and also because socializing and networking happens after hours as well. Or on the golf course or over tea. So there's always that preference. And so I think whenever you can get a warm connection it is better.

Anita Brick: Great advice. Here's a question that actually really surprised me. So this came from an exact MBA student. This person said, are there any undesirable outcomes related to having too much international experience?

Carolyn Chan: Yeah, I thought about that question. There isn't really. But I think one thing that would be important is not being in one place for too long. So for example, with any role, I think you need to be in a role at least 2 to 3 years to me. I think the more different countries, if there's a real reason behind it, I think it's great. I like to look at the agility of someone that has made those moves, and I don't think that there is any downside to that. Much more about, you know, what they've done, how they've been able to adapt, be flexible, that agility. And I would want to see at least a few years in a role.

Anita Brick: Right. That makes sense. I would assume you also want to see maybe an eclectic or a wide ranging network, but one that's been sustained over time.

Carolyn Chan: Yes. Yeah. So for instance, let's take like a marketing career, you know, if they've started in one place and have continued to do that in a few countries or a region, managing a region, that's always good because it really does show a depth in something, in a certain discipline and the breadth starting to round out. And so I'd like to hear their learnings. And so I think that that always says something that's good.

Anita Brick: There was a question related to that. Maybe at the other end, an MBA student said, I've been living and working outside of my home country for the last seven years, and it's time to go home. How do I map out a reentry strategy, especially given that I've been away for a long time?

Carolyn Chan: Yeah, I think that the earlier you can start to build those bridges and links, the better. Having in mind maybe what an ideal role might look like back home and being realistic about what that might be, how employment opportunities are in that country, who are the employers that are there? What are they doing? So researching and starting to build links.

It's easier if you are in a company that might have operations over there. Back at home, I've seen people navigate and network their way, but also if you don't start early and again, building those relationships cross-border to really gain more market knowledge, you know what's happening at home.

Anita Brick: I think that's good. And there are a lot of things, at least, that we can help with, cuz there are a lot of research tools that can be accessed. Do you have time for one more question? Sure. Okay. So you've given us a lot of food for thought. Clearly, there are some things that you need to be thinking about before, during, and especially for the latter part of an assignment if you want to go back home.

And certainly as you make that, that next move. So if you think about all of that, if you are embarking on a cross-border job search, what are three things that you would do and you would advise students and alums at boost.

Carolyn Chan: To do research is so important. Just really knowing where you're going, what to expect. Building those links is really critical. It is a really fruitful experience to be able to have cross-border experience, to just learn a different culture and language. So research.

Anita Brick: Is one. Is there anything else that you would recommend that someone does.

Carolyn Chan: Building the connections. So really building relationships cross-border that I think is much easier to do nowadays with the Chicago booth alumni with LinkedIn, a number of tools that can be easily accessed. Really, I think the third would be just really going for it. Jumping in separate.

Anita Brick: Well thank you. I mean, I know you're in the states today, but I know you are based in Singapore and to have your perspective is so very important because of all the things that are going on, not only in Asia but especially in Asia right now. So thank you again for getting up so early with us. And thank you for sharing all of your wisdom.

Carolyn Chan: My pleasure, my pleasure. Thank you.

Anita Brick: And thank you all for listening. This is Anita Brick with CareerCast at Chicago Booth. Keep advancing.