Career Change Planned or Accidental

Anita Brick: Hi, this is Anita Brick and welcome to CareerCast at Chicago Booth. To help you advance in your career. Today, we're delighted to be speaking with Benny Ho live from Hong Kong. Benny, thank you for staying up so late. Benny has conducted extensive research on career changers, which became the core of his book The Accidental Career. Great job with this.

Early in his career, he worked in architecture in the U.S., Europe and China. Subsequent to that, Benny became a management consultant at McKinsey and later the Hong Kong managing director of Rocket Internet. Thanks again for doing this. I know it's late, but I'm glad that we were having this conversation. I love your approach, but when you set out to do this, did you set out to do this out of necessity or because you really had a passion for it?

Benny Ho: They're not necessarily exclusive, but I would say that we tend closer to the first one of necessity. A lot of people ask me questions about my career, and why is it that I have jumped around so many different things. Which have at the same time. Prompted me to ask the same questions about other people? Because obviously I can't be the only person who has done so many different things. And so I became very curious.

Just in terms of what other people have done and how they move around doing different things, and how it is that they discovered, I would say, you know, their own capacity to do things beyond their own formal training. And that became a core question to what I became interested in. And then on the other side, it was also an observation of people around me, particularly when I was in management consulting and the career. Decisions that they did make, or perhaps even more profoundly, the ones that they didn't make.

And why is it that they chose to take those routes, both for myself and for other people? I really needed to understand why it is that what do these things, what are the opportunities. The pitfalls of doing these things?

Anita Brick: One of the things that was intriguing to me actually was on page 13 of the book, The Accidental Career. You said it's important for us to look at our career with the eyes of an entrepreneur so that we can manage our risk. Tell me what that means. You know, a lot of people think entrepreneurship is actually a pretty risky proposition. How do you equate risk reduction with looking at your career with the perspective of an entrepreneur?

Benny Ho: The reason why I say that, I'm not necessarily saying that everybody should run off and be entrepreneurs, entrepreneurs do several things really, really well. One is that they identify market opportunities and those that create them. Another thing is that they innovate very, very well. And also the third thing is they are able to hedge their risk so they understand what is my cost for doing this and how I could be able to mitigate against the risk.

Part of it that you mentioned is actually a very, very interesting one, because yes, you know, by nature, being an entrepreneur is a risky business or a risky venture to embark on. But entrepreneurs understand that and they're able to do things in order that means that. Okay, well, I am looking at a way I can also diversify. But then, when we look at our careers, we don't necessarily have that perspective in making career choices. I'm giving you A for B, I'm choosing one over the other. Well, I don't think that necessarily needs to be the case I think.

It's possible for people to hedge their careers and think, okay, I'm going to… maybe it's my primary job, but then I can also give up a secondary job or a side project. And so that's what I actually really am. Meant by having that entrepreneurial spirit of thinking about your own career as though you were managing your own business. And how is it that you would hedge against those?

Anita Brick: Got it. So this goes along with one of the questions that an alum sent, and he said, what's the best way to get a taste of a new field if you're a professional already in a full time job?

Benny Ho: That's actually a really, really, really good question, and one that is oftentimes top of mind for a lot of people when considering career changes. There are a couple of ways to answer that. One is that it takes dedication. It takes dedication and saying, okay, currently I am at my job, but I'm really interested in something else and therefore I'm going to make the time to do that, and there have been many instances in the interviews that I've gone through where people were able to do that.

And it allowed them to dabble into another job, even on a part time capacity. Even as a weakening capacity. But to keep that other world in order to make that decision of, say, okay, is that what I really, really want to do? However, the think I understand that there are limitations that play against that, being that the time and patience, the resource limitations of that, are no way to look at it as well, or the opportunities in the company in which you are employed.

There are opportunities even within corporations, within companies in which one might be able to maneuver and move into something that is. Another way to look at it, though, is some companies are actually giving their employees the opportunity to go do side projects. I think one of the most commonly known examples of Google under 20% time project employees are given the opportunity and the freedom to spend 20% of their time at work. To embark on a project simply enough. Gmail was one of the projects that came out of that question of, well, how does that work for you?

I would be able to find the time for the resources to embark on a different industry while I'm still in the old job. We answered in both ways one either externally where you actually actively go out and find opportunity.Or internally and looking at what's actually happening inside your organization.

Anita Brick: I love the example that you gave. Sometimes it's finding a need. People know that it's a need, but it's unmet. Thinking about how to use your skills in ways even within your job, but sometimes you might even be able to find something internally, right?

Benny Ho: Exactly.

Anita Brick: To continue along those lines, one of the questions was from an MBA student who said, how important is it to try to stay aligned with one's original career in changing careers? Is there any relationship between proximity of the careers and the time it takes to achieve a similar level of accomplishment? Clearly there is. We know this, and this person went from being an interventional cardiologist to CEO of a software edtech startup.

It's an interesting point because a lot of people in your book, what they went into, were so far afield from what they had done. But how important is it to stay aligned with what you had previously done?

Benny Ho: That's also a really good question, and I'm clearly biased here. I need to say, though, that, with the premise of my project and interviews, I was really interested in people who were, like I said, flawed in their own capabilities beyond what they were trained to do. You know, in my own robust view, I would say that it's not important to stay aligned to one's original career plan, but again, that's not for everybody.

Also, career choices are just dependent on so many different factors. The second part of your question is actually really interesting. I think yes. So it does take a little bit of time in order to get back to a similar level of accomplishment. Yet at the same time, if you're doing something that you enjoy more, if you're doing something that makes you happier, that level of accomplishment you might never reach if you stayed at your old job.

Anita Brick: In some cases, it's financial, but in some cases it's not. Like I remember one of the stories about the accidental barista. Clearly, he wasn't making what he had made prior to that.

Benny Ho: Yeah.

Anita Brick: And actually but it sounded like he viewed contribution and accomplishment by a very different definition that he had earlier in his career.

Benny Ho: Right, right. And I mean, at the same time, I'm not saying that title and money don't matter here, and I'm not saying that necessarily one has to make that sacrifice whenever I'm going to go pursue something I love more than I'm going to have to give up money, I'm gonna have to give up prestige and and titles and things of that nature. That's definitely not true. And I think that's all the stories in the book that speak to you, that you can definitely go both ways.

For me, it's really just a matter of, okay, well what is your motivation? What's the reason for why you want.To change your career path? And therefore along those reasons, is the new career path going to help you.Reach your goals? And that can offer a lot of fulfillment and.A lot of accomplishment and accomplishment.

Anita Brick: So there were a couple of interesting questions that revolved around credibility. One of the questions I found that was very specific to your approach, one of the evening students said, this all sounds good in theory and with the 17 interviews in your book, but I'm not convinced it works long term. How do you avoid losing credibility? By having to explain a resume that spans several fields that may be unrelated to one.

Benny Ho: Another, at the risk of sounding repetitive here. I think one of the key things is, well, what is your motivation for changing careers? And so accidental careers can happen in a number of ways. So the most common way is just things that happen , you know. I was working in one job and another opportunity came up and I decided to take that, you know, rightfully be the case. And, you know, there's absolutely nothing wrong with that.

There's another view of it in which you are constantly, maybe not even constantly, but you're moving because you have greater questions in mind. Other questions that you're trying to solve, and it's specific to the work that you're doing, or perhaps in a simpler form, just submission. If there is a common thread to what it is that you're doing, how is it that you're moving around, then you know the question of how do you lose credibility of having jumped around would not be at point out from both.

The interviews I've done and from personal experience, what I've found is that if you are motivated by a clear thread, then your story will come alive. You would be able to explain precisely why it is that you went from A, B, and.C, and also how it all accumulates into one concrete skillset. Not in all cases, definitely not in all industries, and definitely not all functions. But in some instances, I've seen personally that what matters more sometimes isn't necessarily all how many years of experience this person has in doing this.

Particular task, rather is, well, how much initiative can this person take and how good is this person? Problem solving issues that arise and builder skills that you built.Up, not necessarily through just one job.

Anita Brick: I think that there's something really important to say here, though, because from a practical standpoint, in the marketplace today, I think you're right. If you have an overall theme, if there is a thread and a theme that can be the umbrella for various things that you've done, maybe in different functions or industries or different contexts, it's fine. But beyond that, having just generic problem solving skills or analytical skills or leadership skills in today's environment isn't enough.

You're right, having that theme and being able to see that theme, both moving forward and retrospectively is going to be important because without that, generic skills just don't play well today.

Benny Ho: No, I agree that There is probably some level of correlation with time. What matters sometimes is that if you have an umbrella, like we're saying, that's thread, then having experiences might not necessarily be a negative point on one's resume.

Anita Brick: I agree, I think what's important is, as you are thinking ahead, as you're looking at next steps, really assessing the risks prior to making the move so that the story unfolds in a way that's not haphazard, but more deliberate. And I think employers feel more comfortable if they know that you thought about this, it wasn't that you just jump because you're impulsive or you jump because you get bored or whatever.

You made a point about over time, it can be more difficult. There was a question from an alum that said, I've been working for more than 25 years. I really want to do something new. From the research you conducted, what worked for people with lots of experience, like me reading the book, there were people who did this well into their 50s and beyond.

Benny Ho: There's both a big challenge with time and yet a very big opportunity that comes along with it. The challenges are obvious, right? The challenges being that, well, you know, I've been doing something for so long and, you know, this is what I've known for, houses that I'm going to be able to move to something else and I think in the cases I've seen, a lot of times, it comes down to actually being an entrepreneur to be able to say, well, if this is something that I'm really passionate about is something that I need to answer and I want to dedicate my time to doing, and therefore I would go about doing it on my own. I definitely think of cases where, for instance, this is an example of an interview that was not good inside the.

Book, but he spent his childhood being really, really immersed in music, and he absolutely loved music. He ended up spending 20 years of his life working in it, reaching up to very high level to the CTO level. But yet, as he was preparing for the next stage in his life of saying, okay, well, you know, 25, 30 years in my life already working at it, you look at you with music, and he actually ended up taking music classes and realized that the music industry had changed entirely on what he understood 30 years ago.

So while back in the day, he wasn't good enough to do music, nowadays music had taken on much greater of a kind of logic which was of using technology to a composer and in a very kind of almost serendipitous way, because, of course, 25, 30 years of working in the IP sector to be completely fluent in the technology, and he was able to reinvent his career and say, okay, now I'm going to start my own thing. I'm going to create music for video games for commercials, for TV spots, etc., etc. and so I think that's really where the opportunity and the risk and get down selling on one side, he was able to rediscover something at the same time because, you.

By that time the kids were already off college and independent had some liberty, the freedom to pursue those things. Obviously, a lot of that really comes down to financial security and whether or not one has the liberty to be able to take all these risks, but if so, then have the courage to do it.

Anita Brick: And as long as there isn't a conflict of interest, I've seen a number of people who started something during evenings and on their weekends that wasn't in competition, and there wasn't a conflict of interest with their employer, and at the point that it became self-sustaining, then they moved over to make it full time. But they did it incrementally.

That was another way that they reduced the risk. But I love the example that you gave, because maybe part of this and I know there's no instant gratification here, but I think it's still a good idea. Part of the whole process is starting with some self-assessment, really seeing what skills have you developed over time and what passions you have today, but maybe also looking back and saying, well, what passions did you have earlier in your life?

And are there things that like the example that you gave because technology has changed things, the world is more global. Whatever those changes that have occurred over the last decades, maybe some of those passions in the past could actually be fulfilled today.

Benny Ho: So just to add to that, I think it's not uncommon, you know, when we make a career move from one job to another or one industry to another, quite naturally we've become detached from that world, from that first world, and therefore we kind of lose sight of what's.Been happening in that area. So one thing that I pointed out in my book is that if we are entrepreneurial, but the way that we hedge our careers and we look at it as a portfolio.

Of activities rather than singular jobs here and there. Then we gain insight into how those innovations or changes in one area apply to another, or how our skills now or from before apply to what I want to do next. And so that awareness, I would say, of knowing what is still happening, not only in the room with your personal, but also in the.

World that you were a part of before and might want to be a part of in the future that would give you a level of insight to hopefully inform you in terms of, well, how did I position myself for those six changes?

Anita Brick: It's a good point, and I think if we also think about where else do we spend our time, we may spend our time on some hobbies, as you talked about, that become careers we do volunteering in our communities. You know, there's a lot of volunteering going on at one of the incubators. Shared space startups, 1871, in Chicago, where people will go in and advise and so I think there are a lot of places where we've gained skills where we haven't necessarily been paid for them, but those also count when you're making a career change, too.

Benny Ho: Oh, definitely. Definitely.

Anita Brick: Do you have time for a few more questions?

Benny Ho: Yeah, definitely.

Anita Brick: Okay, good. Well, the executive MBA students said, have you seen people where they made changes where they actually either did a lateral or even a promotional type of move that where it was actually an advancement move?

Benny Ho: Yeah. There have been many instances of people I was talking to who found better pay or with a higher positions, higher title by making those moves. I think one that really stands out to me and unfortunately, again, just due to the limits of the book, I was unable to include the one that really stood out to me. It was an interviewee, if I remember correctly. He or she studied Art and archeology in her undergrad.

Just a logical place, etc. but then obviously wasn't necessarily a lucrative job. She ended up actually being a waitress for seven years and just by chance, completely by chance, she was working at her waitressing job, which again, was not, you know, very, very lucrative. And one of the customers who would visit a restaurant just noticed her overall work ethic, started up a conversation with her and said, hey, would you like to come work for me?

And the guy actually ran an educational tech startup, so she knew nothing about it. And what was that in like in, in a very concerning way, was that, you know, the company administers the test to all of their clients to determine their fit for a job and it goes beyond just, you know, aptitude of knowledge, but also personality. And it turned out that there was one position of the company, and she and another person ended up being, let's say, the finalist for the spot.

She had no experience whatsoever, but scored very high on it. And another person who had a master's in education, at least on paper, it was a perfect fit, didn't score as well as a lot of companies did, was they actually ended up saying, well, hey, we have the capacity, why not? Right? She ended up moving up to an executive level in the company, and then also starting a second company with one of the co-founders of the first company doing more things in the educational tech space. This is only one example in many, but it really, really depends on, well, what is your profile and how is it that you're adding value to a job?

Anita Brick: Well, you're absolutely right. Ultimately, it's about the value you create, either for yourself if you're doing an entrepreneurial thing or certainly for someone else. And that has to be the question you keep asking yourself, how do I add value? It makes perfect sense, you know, along with this evening, students said in your accidental career falling into a career path approach, where does relationship building come in?

Building a strong network is always mentioned as a critical component of career progression. If a network primarily is developed through a current career or function, how can it be leveraged during a career change?

Benny Ho: I don't think the networks are.Necessarily siloed when it comes to networking, and the people, you know network spread large and wide, and therefore you never know who you're going to be and never know how those networks are going to apply to other things that you might be interested in the other way to look at it is that what is the purpose of your career change? And I think that when you have a clear purpose of why you're doing something, you inevitably begin to seek out those opportunities and to be involved in meeting new people who are known people in those fields or, you know, are directly involved in those areas.

Anita Brick: Your point, and maybe this person's point too, is that relationships are key. That's how most decisions are made: buying decisions, hiring decisions, etc.. Right. But as you said, you need to think innovatively about who your network is, who they may know. And also, and this is a big part of what I believe is that as you're thinking about people, how can you help them and how can you help people within their networks?

I've seen when people do that, their ability to tap into a whole variety of people across functions and industries goes up very dramatically and clearly. You must be very good at building relationships to be able to find all these very different people, different walks of life, and have the credibility for them to share their stories with you.

Benny Ho: Thanks for that. But I think what matters a lot is what is the purpose? What's the point of departure? I don't necessarily go out to network with people just to build relationships, just to have a bigger Rolodex. For me, as a matter of, well, I have certain questions and I want to ask those questions. And you're going to realize that if your departure point is one of answering questions, then you're going to meet a lot of people.Who either have Asa's.

Or willing to mentor you into finding answers to those things. And so it becomes a matter of what we have, these joint interests. Let's share that. Let's try to understand and people appreciate that.No, definitelyRelationship building is important. I see it more as well. How do we collectively do something? And through that you feel much better relationships?

Anita Brick: I think you're absolutely right. You're absolutely right. Final question: what are the top things that someone who's contemplating or maybe is in the midst of a career change should begin thinking about or doing right now?

Benny Ho: You know, if somebody was to think about making those career changes, you know, obviously there are some tactical things one can do as an entrepreneur. There are certain things that you have to reflect upon on the necessity of your work, not necessarily the easiest thing to do. I think there are huge rewards in making good news.

Anita Brick: Thank you so much for doing this and writing the book, and I can't wait to hear what the next question you're going to ask people and what will come of that great job and really interesting stories. Really, really interesting stories. Any site is accidental career.com. Betty, thanks again for doing this.

Benny Ho: Well thank you. It was my pleasure to speak with you. I really, really enjoyed this. So thank you very much for having me.

Anita Brick: And thank you all for listening. This is Anita Brick with CareerCast at Chicago Booth. Keep advancing.