Career Change at Any Age

Anita Brick: Hi, I’m Anita Brick. And welcome to CareerCast at Chicago Booth to help you advance your career. Today we're delighted to have two amazing experts in career change. Whether it's right at the beginning of your career, the middle of your career, or the end of your career. Kathleen McDonald Siegmann, who is a Booth alum and founder of Career Investments, and her partner Jim McKean, who is head of development. They both believe that career change is possible at any age or any stage of life.

So we're going to tap into your wisdom today, Kathleen and Jim. Thank you so much for being on the call.

Kathleen McDonald Siegmann: Thanks, Anita. We're looking forward to it.

Jim McKean: We are.

Anita Brick: Excellent. Let's get our terms defined. Some people say, well, a career change has to be level, geography, function, industry, and it has to be all those things. Some people say, well, it has to be one of those things. So give us a really quick definition of what career change is to you.

Kathleen McDonald Siegmann: Well, I think it's actually any one of those elements. It's something that is different than what you are currently doing. And it can refer to role, it can refer to industry, it can refer to geography. It can refer to skill set. But it means that there is something that you are doing that is significantly different.

Jim McKean: It's often motivated by a change in your personal motivations. You may be moving along a track, thinking it was, this career was going to provide something for you, whether it was compensation or prestige or access to other highly skilled people. And then somewhere along the line, what you thought was important changes. And many times that underlies a career change.

Anita Brick: Agree. And it could even be a market change.

Jim McKean: Could be, absolutely.

Anita Brick: Any of the above. All right. So we had a question from an Exec MBA student. It's kind of a getting started question. And he said I am a very linear kind of person and I'm experiencing my career change as anything but linear. It's frustrating and I'm about to stick with what I've always done. Help! We know it's a nonlinear process. How can someone who likes to think A to Z look at career change and not get derailed?

Kathleen McDonald Siegmann: There are two parts to this, I think. One is there's a process part to this. You know, we know it's not a linear process, but I think thinking through what is the process that they're currently using as they're thinking about a career change. Or for somebody that is a linear thinker, they tend to be intentional and planners. And so I think looking at what the processes that they're currently utilizing is step one. Evaluate the process and say, you know, what am I working towards? And then I think the other piece is, what is their goal?

And a lot of times what we find is that people don't have really good goals, except I want to change my career. You know, Jim would say we need to unpack that further. What do you mean by that? And where are you hoping to get to, and what are the things that you're hoping to achieve? What are the things that you're hoping to change with this move? And do we have a really clear goal or target that we have designed to process and a plan towards? Because a lot of times what happens is people say, I want to do something different, and then they start working on it and they have a few conversations.

They hop online and they start evaluating job descriptions. And so it becomes a very disjointed process, which makes it feel even more chaotic to them.

Anita Brick: With your approach—and Jim, maybe you want to pop in, or either one of you—what is an approach that can create structure in all that chaos?

Jim McKean: Well, I think there are a couple of ways you can do that. The first thing is to get really clear on what you have under your control and what you don't. In the process of any career change or any job search, there are forces which you don't really have control over, and if you concentrate on those and think about those a lot, you will feel kind of whiplash through the process.

But in fact, there are things that you do have control over. You have control over how you spend your time. You have control over who you're talking to. You've got control over the investments that you make in your training, and how you show what you are good at. So there's lots of things you have under your control.

So one of the things we work a lot with people is to start setting aside the things that aren't under your control, beginning to understand those things that are under your control, and then beginning to dedicate time and energy toward those. So that's one of the processes.

Anita Brick: That makes sense. One person, actually a weekend student, and I think he's thinking, how do I do something that I haven't done before when I'm working full time? But his question specifically was, what is the best way to get a taste of a new field if you're a professional already working full time and in this case, going to school on Saturdays?

Kathleen McDonald Siegmann: Well, and that is a classic. What do they know about this field of interest? And so a lot of times we hear people wanting to make an industry change. And when we start to ask them questions, we realize they haven't done any research in that industry. We're like, so how many people do you know that are currently in that field?

And they say, nobody. Or how many people that would be at a level that would hire you, do you have in your network? And so we really look for some of the gaps. Gaps can fall on a few different dimensions. One would be your network gaps. The other would be your insights around that industry. Do you have gaps there where you need more research?

Three would be who are the companies or the organizations that are performing best in that field? You know, what we look first for are, well, what do you know about that field and what assets do you currently have under your control, to Jim's point, that you can lean on so you can get more insights before you dedicate more time?

Especially if you have very limited time. You want to be really strategic about how you engage. And I think a lot of times people feel like they get stuck in their job and they're also going to school on the weekend. I know exactly what that feels like. So to be able to explore new opportunities and that could be, again, a new field, could be industries, it could be what kind of role in that field to be able to do some of that homework in advance.

It saves a ton of energy because you can't necessarily go shadow somebody for the day, but you can reach out to the network. And I would say especially the Booth network, the alumni network is incredibly powerful. To be able to go online in the alumni directory and see who is currently in those fields and which ones are willing to connect with students and share their insights.

Anita Brick: So I was actually going to ask you about shadowing. Your point is well taken. You can't necessarily shadow. What about diving in in a nonprofit way? Say you've always done IT. You want to do stuff that is more financial planning and analysis. What if you go and volunteer in an organization or, depending on the value you bring, be on their board or their junior board and get a taste of it that way? Are you seeing that with any of your clients getting an actual experience?

Jim McKean: That's a technique that we use with our clients a lot. A lot of times a client will be, whether it's a career change or even a growth inside a career, will have gaps in their knowledge where maybe they haven't managed people, or maybe they haven't managed money, or maybe they haven't made budgeting decisions. And you can use volunteer leadership opportunities to close that gap. Show your capabilities in those spaces. Same is true in a career change. If you want to move into a space that you can find a volunteer opportunity that gives you a chance to learn first and secondly, demonstrate.

Kathleen McDonald Siegmann: To add on to that point, though, I think it's important that folks choose those volunteer opportunities wisely because it has to be meaningful to the other side. It has to be able to translate. So, for example, if you're looking for an opportunity to use, let's say, finance skills, and you're going to take that into a not for profit, the market won't necessarily— if you go to look for a job, they won't necessarily look at that and say that's valid experience.

And so I think you also have to look and say, what are the skill sets that I'm trying to gain? And is it realistic that I can get those from a volunteer opportunity in a meaningful enough way? And so if you have to be able to show scope and scale, it has to be a really large not-for-profit opportunity, a really significant assignment for them to feel like you could translate that into their larger organization.

Anita Brick: Absolutely. Yeah.

Kathleen McDonald Siegmann: Being strategic about what you pick, also what skills you're trying to gain from that opportunity and what the other side would value. We absolutely find in terms of leading teams, managing volunteers, a lot of the people assets, you get great exposure to that in volunteer opportunities. Some of the harder and more technical skills you won't necessarily get the same benefit having demonstrated those in a not for profit volunteer arena than a paid job.

Anita Brick: Great. Good point. An Executive MBA student said, what are the key factors to demonstrate to a potential recruiter? Internal or external? When making a career change, you know that the interviewer is more experienced and has much more of the background for that role than you do, because obviously you're changing careers. What should I do to be most convincing and create a solid argument to really convince someone that I'm the right person for the job?

Kathleen McDonald Siegmann: What we believe— and the work that we do crosses over specific industries and functions. Because really, the best thing you can do is demonstrate to this recruiter that you understand the business model. What are the actual drivers of the business and what is going on in their world? Usually when we're talking with recruiters, either they're corporate recruiters or with search firms, but really understand the opportunities that they're putting in front of you.

What is the underlying business model? How does that organization make money and meet its mission? And then the second thing is what is going on in their world. What are they facing? And then understanding how the role that you want to move into fits into how they make money and how they meet their mission and what is going on in their world.

If you can show that you understand the underlying business model and the fit of the role—and that requires homework and research—and I think a lot of times individuals underestimate the amount of research and really the strategic thinking that needs to go into making the switch, because you do have to be able to demonstrate knowledge and you have to overcome these gaps. And one of the best ways that we have found for individuals to do that at a specific function level is to really understand the underlying business model.

Anita Brick: Makes perfect sense. We did a program about a year ago. The person who was sharing her wisdom said, the last thing you want to do is look like a tourist. You may not be a native, but you want to appear to be because of your knowledge and the conversations and the research that you've done as a near native. It's true. And I think it's true for students and for alumni. There was another question, this time from an evening student, who said, what's the best way to explain a resume that spans across several fields that are unrelated to one another? That's a really challenging question.

Kathleen McDonald Siegmann: So when Jim was talking about all the things that we have under our control, one of the other key things that we have under our control is our branding and how we take our message to the market. If we haven't distilled or how those experiences connect, then there's absolutely no way that we can take it to the market.

So what we would do with an individual in this situation is to say, OK, what are the things that you learned, you learned about from an industry perspective and also from a functional perspective? And how did those learnings build on each other? Because even though you were in seemingly disparate roles in the field, there is some type of a building process that happens there.

And so for us to be able to distill that, then that's how we can connect it to the market. And that's what a lot of people don't take the time to do. They really treat that resume as a very transactional document, and they aren't thinking about what am I messaging and how would I show you? Well, they don't look like they have an ordinary career path, that it's an extraordinary, well-rounded set of experiences.

But you also have to be able to back that up with substance. So I can't say I've had an extraordinary, well-rounded set of experiences and then not dive deeper and be very specific about what that supported me and what that helps me bring to your organization.

Anita Brick: Often there's an underlying theme. Yes. Then you can pull those qualities of experiences, etc., to pull it all together. But if he doesn't feel comfortable with it, I don't think anyone will. But your point is well taken. There's a parallel question. It's a variation of that theme. And another thing students said, how do you effectively explain a spinning your wheels phase on your resume to an employer?

I'm assuming spinning your wheels means either a side step or a back step, but not a progressive step. So how do you explain taking a job that wasn't progressive?

Jim McKean: We can go back to the tools that Kathleen was speaking about earlier. What did you learn in that job? Both the skills—the hard skills, the soft skills—and also kind of about your own motivations and directions. Those can help. It has a lot to do with where you are in your career as well. Early in your career, a little bit more exploratory until you find your way is not nearly as damaging as it is mid-career.

At that point, you really have to work on your messaging. You’re really going to have to explain why this made sense. Kathleen and I talk a lot about the arc of your career, like the arc of a story. If you can find a way for that arc to make sense to a person, then they can incorporate these side paths as perfectly logical in this other kind of a career path that's a little bit different than what people usually go through.

Anita Brick: Got it. Something that came to mind when you were both sharing this: the words that someone says, whether it's the words on paper or the words in a networking conversation or in an interview, are one part of it. I don't recall where the study came from, but 93% of what people perceive is all the nonverbal stuff. So if you feel just uncomfortable—I shouldn't have made this step; if I knew then what I know now, I would never have taken that job—and your discomfort comes up, what are some things to quell that? What are some things to maybe calm yourself and dissipate that discomfort?

Kathleen McDonald Siegmann: First of all, what we find with clients is that they have to acknowledge—and not in front of that person, but I think this is part of that planning. And as they step back and they dissect and they discern their career steps today to say, you know what? That wasn't a great move at all. And you know, where I couldn't stand the organization or I had the world's worst boss.

And I think when they recognize, like, OK, I've got to be able to push through and say, what could my takeaway from that be? What are some of the good things? What are the things that I did learn? How would somebody know that I was good in that role? Usually we find where people have the missteps because they didn't perform well in those roles.

You know, we say you’ve got to forgive yourself; otherwise this is going to be a career mistake that keeps clobbering you over the head because you're absolutely right, Anita. People pick that up. And so to be able to forgive yourself and say, OK, not the best decision that I made. And here's what I learned. I learned that I don't do well if I'm not connected to the client. I'm not very good in roles that require a highly quantitative skill set, mid to late career. I think you get a lot of points for knowing what you're good at and really understanding what you're not good at, and learning how to overcome those barriers, either because of the way you design teams or because of the projects and assignments you take on.

But that self-awareness is really, really critical because I don't think people are looking to hire perfection. I think they're looking to hire great fits for roles and people who are really healthy and that they would enjoy working with.

Anita Brick: And I think that last phrase is really a really crucial point, because most people can relearn things. But if they don't fit in and they're not willing to share and play nice in the sandbox, so to speak, to really connect and add value to the team, because more things are done by teams in most cultures these days—that's what people will take away. And I, I think you're absolutely right. If you don't fess up to it, there'll be something that people will sense is amiss, and they would just probably walk away from you rather than uncover it. Because if you're hiding something, most people think, or most employers think, it's far more sinister than “I made a little mistake.”

Jim McKean: That's a great point, Anita. There are multiple things happening in a selection process, and only part of them are about, has this person got the right skill set for this job? Another big part of them has to do with am I perceiving any risks associated with this person? And if a person is feeling uncomfortable about a job or is trying to strongly downplay talking about it, then all that's going to do is introduce this idea of risk.

Well, what's going on, what's hiding here? And if there's other good candidates, then that will be sufficient to get them shunted to one side in the process. If you just remember that a piece of what's going on in the selection process is a risk-management piece, you want to not trigger risk signals and being uncomfortable about something, that's one of the risk signals.

Kathleen McDonald Siegmann: To follow up to Jim's point, you know, one of the things that we ask people to do is to prepare for those zapper questions. I mean, what are the toughest questions somebody could ask you on the other side? And if one of them was, you know, it doesn't look like you stayed here very long, or it looks like you've jumped from five different industries and seven different companies in a very short period time, whatever the places where you feel most vulnerable, you need to get them out on the table, and you have to have a strategy for how you're going to answer them in an authentic way.

Because to your point, Anita, people just sense when it's not congruent. And that becomes a deal killer more so than whatever could have happened. And so to be able to take it off the table in a very authentic answer that you do not have to belabor, but you have to prepare for and then turn it to a forward looking statement, you know, and this is what I learned.

And, you know, blah of a lot and then move on. It's a technique that needs to be practiced. First of all, you have to address the fact that, OK, maybe I underperformed. Maybe I didn't have a great relationship with my boss, maybe I'm looking to make a change in an industry that I wasn't very successful in, and that's the reason why I want to make the change.

So I think you have to look at those underlying reasons, and prepare for those zappers. That's one of the hardest things that our clients have in terms of their preparation, because there becomes an emotional block. And that's the piece that, you know, really prepping for it is why it is so important.

Anita Brick: Agree. Having a strong network is a way to mitigate risk. And there was a question about building networks and building relationships by an evening student. She was concerned about a couple of things in that realm. Let me share this with you. Building a strong network is always mentioned as a critical component for career progression. Obviously, we know that if a network primarily was developed through a current career or function, how can it be leveraged?

I think that's one in a career change. The other part of it is that if you then start over again, this person is concerned, will I lose momentum and lose ground if I cut the cord with the old network and move on to a new network? I guess there are two questions there. Number one, how can it be leveraged? And number two, if it doesn't seem like it can be leveraged a whole lot, how do you build a new network without losing ground?

Jim McKean: Networks are kind of part of the normal human experience. We live in this kind of web of human relationships, and when we talk about networks, sometimes we kind of forget that that's really what we're talking about, this web of human relationships. So a network which doesn't have connections to an industry that you want can be grown toward that industry.

So it's not like you're killing off one network and, you know, standing up another network, you're taking the existing network and you're growing it toward the direction that you want to be. And inside that network, there are people who are very highly connected. They know lots and lots and lots of people. Those are people in your existing network that you can ask, who do you know?

And they can begin to help you make new connections. And the picture in my head is very much about a living web that's moving in the direction that you want it to move in, and the issue is taking control of that and deciding the direction that you want it to move in, and finding the assets that connect you to the right people to help you grow the network in the direction that you want to grow it in.

Jim McKean: And that direction might be towards an industry. It might be a level. A lot of us have strong social connections to people who are kind of at the same level. There are peers in organizations and maybe not such strong connections upward in the organization, maybe not so strong connections to people who can make decisions about us and our careers and our futures. We maybe need to think intentionally about growing that network directionally in a company, as well as across industries.

Anita Brick: I would agree, and I think being open minded, because you never know who someone who knows and loves you, who knows and loves someone else and could be a conduit for you.

Kathleen McDonald Siegmann: What we find too, Anita, are most people really don't form networks with much intentionality, and then they also don't organize them very well. And so what ends up happening is you end up having a lot of hidden network assets. So, you know, when somebody, especially in the point of making a change in their career, you know, really looking and saying, what is my goal? And then looking back and saying, what in my network could be assets? What we encourage people to do is to start bucketing them. You know, you can bucket them by former employer, you can bucket them by geography, you can bucket them by industry, you can bucket them by levels in an organization. But to be able to look at that and say, what is my goal?

And if your goal is to be, you know, hired at a certain level in an organization, to look back in that network and say, what are my gaps? Do I have anybody in my network that could even hire me? How many people in my network do I even have that are associated with the industry that I'm targeting?

And then from there you can develop a plan. And sometimes we work with folks too, that are saying, I think I want to make a change in three years because I want to end up being closer to retirement in this geographic location, and having them start to think intentionally about that. Network design is really, really important because you can put yourself basically on a runway, and the longer your runway, the less pressure you're under.

Networking is a hard— it's an important skill, but it's hard for people to do because it just seems unwieldy and hard to manage. Jim, would you guess, what, 90% of our clients walk in the door and their network assets, they're like, it's a mess putting this all together and knowing who's in my network and keeping all that refreshed.

It is really, really hard for them to do and to keep up with. And this is something that is a career changer. I know that you must see this every single day in your work, Anita, too, that the people who keep current with their network and strategically think about how they're growing their network, to Jim's point, you know, what direction are they constantly taking it in, including having mentors in their network? Really, really important.

Anita Brick: Oh, absolutely. Any thoughts about any technology or any apps or anything that can help organize and remind us to reach out to our network periodically?

Jim McKean: We haven't really, you know, found a killer app in this space. If you simply dump your address book into a spreadsheet and then start asking yourself, where are these people in the world? Where are these people in industries? Where are these people in levels? Do I think of this person as a connector or not? That is, knows many, many people by name. Is this person a champion of mine? Are they kind of willing to carry my message into the marketplace? And you just begin to organize. It's not a complicated organization. It's fairly simple. But most people don't think about their networks that way.

Kathleen McDonald Siegmann: Jim, they don't think about them. They don't know how to evaluate them in terms of can this network serve me well throughout my entire career progression?

Jim McKean: We separate in our heads for some reason, this idea of networking, career networking, and we have this sort of image of standing around someplace with a glass of wine in our hand, talking to people we don't know. That's kind of one model of networking, and that's career networking, and that my friends and the people I graduated with and my family members and the people my spouse knows, that's something else, but that's not networking.

The fact is, those two things kind of blend together. There are different sorts of experiences, and we've noticed that people have very different kinds of networks, and the kind of network that you have is not necessarily a reflection of its effectiveness.

Anita Brick: What do you mean? I'm not sure I understand.

Jim McKean: Well, I can compare Kathleen and I. I do this all the time. Kathleen has a large network; has many people in there. She is what we would think of as a connector. She knows lots and lots and lots of people. I know fewer people than she does. But the connections that I have with people normally come from my having worked on a problem with them.

Kathleen can grow her network through kind of social interactions, and I grow my networks by working on a problem with people together. That's how people get to know how my brain works. What I think of as a networking opportunity may be very different than what someone else thinks of as a networking opportunity. So understanding what our networking styles are is really kind of important.

Because if I go off and try to do what Kathleen does, I'm going to be much less effective than if I go do what I'm good at. Once you get that clear, you combine it with what Kathleen was talking about, this idea of intentionality and saying, I need more champions in my network, and I need more people who are at a level who could hire me or influence hiring me, and I need more people in Tampa in my network. Now, with those as goals, I can begin to put together a series of experiences that would help me move in that direction.

Anita Brick: Makes sense, and it seems like the common thread, even though your styles may be different, is that you both are very intentional about adding value to your network, not just extracting value from your network.

Jim McKean: That's correct.

Kathleen McDonald Siegmann: That's exactly it. I also think, too, that networks are about information exchange. I think people get networks and networking confused, and they think networking, schmoozing, and it's not. It is an information exchange. And so again, how do I bring information to my network that's valuable? And how do I extract information from my network that's valuable for people that are making a career change, learning as much as they possibly can about the new environment that they would like to enter into, is really, really important.

That's how they're going to pick up the lingo. That's how they're going to expand and extend their networks in those particular areas. Again, whether it be industry, geography, role, etc., it’s really, really important that we think about networking as information exchange and how we thank our network, because there are some times that we call on our network, and we're asking our network to do a lot of favors for us and what we find.

A lot of times people are hesitant to call on their network because they don't want to owe anybody anything, right? Or they feel like they're putting that person out. And what we found is, 80% of the time, somebody is absolutely delighted to help you if, one, you're incredibly gracious and follow up and you say thank you. The second piece of it is if you also say, if there's any way that I can ever help you or anybody that you care about in the future, you know, please call on me.

And third, do your homework before you show up. Right? So just walking in front of somebody saying, I want to make the change. To your point, you can't be the tourist—that you value their time and do your homework first.

Anita Brick: Absolutely, because you need to make it easy for them. Do you have time maybe for 2 or 3 more questions?

Kathleen McDonald Siegmann: Absolutely.

Anita Brick: OK. I think this was something that maybe is in your area. I’m an IT professional and have been working for the past 13 years. I hit a wall and do not see my career going anywhere. I want to move into investment and the finance world. I'm currently a weekend MBA student, but I have my fears that I'm not going to be able to do this given the market. What can I do to test the water to see if, say, finance and investment is a viable option?

Jim McKean: The first thing I would say is this is such a common problem, and this whole issue of career management being intentional and having a long-range plan for your career, really, you know, IT was one of the places that it first became critical because frankly, we're outliving our careers. We become a deep expert in a technology, we have careers that span 30 years. We have a technology that’s going to last 15. We have had for a while this issue that he's talking about.

One of the great things about IT is that there are IT problems that are relevant to almost any industry. So you can become a pretty deep expert in almost any industry by approaching it from the IT side. The business analyst position is often one that can bridge between the operations of a particular organization and the information technology that supports that operation, but sometimes that can be used as a leveraging board. The other thing it has to do with getting really clear on what skills you've got that are immediately transferable into the space that you're going to have.

One of the nice things about finance is a lot of finance is quant driven. Not all of it, but a lot of it is.

Anita Brick: Absolutely, absolutely.

Jim McKean: If you can bring those quant skills to the table, you could show relevancy fairly quickly.

Anita Brick: So maybe he's not going to move from IT, whether he's an architect or project manager, but he might be able to move into an investment firm in the middle office, in the back office. And build some networks. It doesn't happen a lot, but I know we had an alumni who did that. He actually, in a very down market, went in, did project management for a tech consulting firm, went to investment management firm and in a tech role, was brilliant at building relationships inside the company.

It took him two years and he became an equity analyst. It can be done, but it can sometimes, like you said, it takes really understanding how to be intentional, how to be strategic about it, and then also where can you add value today and then build that network for the future? It's certainly possible. I think sometimes people give up too soon.

Kathleen McDonald Siegmann: Yeah, I think they get frustrated. And I think that the other thing that we found is that they don't necessarily keep score on their current role. Most people who want to make a move inside an organization and be considered for something that is not traditionally wouldn't be, you know, a traditional next step in their career path tend to be rock stars and what they're currently doing.

Anita Brick: Yep.

Kathleen McDonald Siegmann: You're right. And so being able to show that you are a rock star, or knowing that I need to be a rock star and do the job I have right now, I need to do it really well to be considered for the next job. And where do I start taking up gray space around me? Because gray space exists in every single organization.

It's about looking around and saying, what's the right gray space to pick up? Is it a critically, you know, important project to the organization? Is it high profile, will it give me a chance to develop a relationship across senior leadership or with key clients? And so I think, you know, being able to step back and look at that as a strategy and not give up like you're saying, but then also have that commitment to how would I show that I am a rock star in my current job?

We use this analogy all the time where we say, Michael Jordan, Michael Jordan didn't walk out of a game and say, oh, I guess that's what I did, and said he knew exactly what he wanted to drive in order to be number one in the league. So he knew what his performance stats were. And I think when you have a goal and if you say, I want to make this kind of a change, it's easier then just say, OK, there's more than one way to get there. We always talk about careers being lily pads, and sometimes you can go in very linear lily pads, but sometimes, you know, you can crisscross across the pond.

The thing is, if the lily pads are too far apart, at some point you're going to take a drink. That's all you do. But you can take little steps. And I think being strategic and for him to say, OK, here's a way that I can get there and it's two years and it's not seven years. But again, I go back to how he was driving his performance every day, and he was thinking about his value proposition.

And most of the time we don't do that. We walk into an organization and we start working, and then we realize we're not happy or it's not a good fit, and we say we want to make a change, but we don't necessarily do the work behind it. Once you're out of the early-career stage, you really get paid for the substance that you bring to an organization, and that substance comes in, you know, expertise. It comes in self-awareness. It comes in performance and the achievements that you're able to point to.

Anita Brick: Well, you're right. There was a question from an alum. It sounds like he'd been in a senior role with more than 25 years of experience, wants to do something new. And I think he's starting to tell people that he wants to do something new, because he's getting pushback. People are like, oh, you're too old, you know, how can you start off?

You're leaving this position at a high level. No one's going to hire you at a junior role. And so the question was, how do I increase my chances? I don't want to kill my chances of a career change this late in my career. What are some things I can do to maybe stack the cards a little bit more in my favor?

Kathleen McDonald Siegmann: Well, I think first of all, getting a clear vision, doing the behind-the-scenes work before you go out to your network and say, I want to do something new. At that point, you're turning over your messaging to your entire network, and they're telling you what you can't do. They're telling you that you're crazy and you've just given them kind of a vague, I think I want to do something new.

That's not really the best brand strategy. After 25 years of experience, to be able to step back and say, what is it that I'd like to do? What are the attributes, what are the criteria? And to be able to put together the dimensions of what something new is, so that when you go out and you start to inform your network, you have a plan. Otherwise it looks really random.

Anita Brick: It does. What if you do know, though? You know, I've been in finance all this time. I want to do something that is more marketing focused or I want to get into nonprofit, but they have a specific target. They're still getting pushback because they've been in a senior role. So how do you come back? You're overqualified to really demonstrate a desire to do something new and to add value. But that overqualified? There's no place to go from there.

Kathleen McDonald Siegmann: This is where I think networks are really powerful, because it's harder to be really kind of a cold call on an organization that doesn't understand you. It's a hard, hard place to be when you want to make such a massive change. The other thing that I think is really important is I just had this conversation with an individual who does a lot of work with not for profits and spoke to that very point, you know, so many people at the end of their career, they come back and say, I want to be a not for profit executive. That's a hard transition for them to make. So we started having those conversations. And one of the things that we recognize, most of them haven't even served on a board.

Anita Brick: Right.

Kathleen McDonald Siegmann: They don't have a lot of even the current credentials that you would need or relationships. It's kind of like this is a nice thing to do. And I think, again, we come back to what is your goal? And then coming back and saying, what are the gaps? And just because you want to do it doesn't mean that you're going to do it in the next eight weeks.

But it's, you know, setting up what would be a plan? How would I increase my chances of being able to have this option? And really, the thing about career satisfaction is creating as many options as we possibly can have for ourselves, right? And there are a lot of factors that go into options. So one is career choices. B is a network of folks who, you know, consistently reach out to us and want to hire us for our expertise.

Three is it's different to go approach an organization to be their executive director. If you think you want to move into the not-for-profit space, it's different to walk in there and try to explain to them, I'm at this point in my career, this is something I've always wanted to do. That's usually the message that they have versus saying, I recognize that there's a problem that you guys are facing, challenges. I know you're trying to acquire funding. I know that you need more volunteers. I know that demand for your social services has increased 30% over the last year. Here are the resources I can bring to the organization to fix that. That's different than “I want to make a change,” right? I have to build the business case. It doesn't matter if it's not for profit or for profit. You have to build the business case versus a very vague statement.

Anita Brick: Well, you're absolutely right. Because if I'm the executive director of a nonprofit, I don't want to have to take you on and figure out how I can use you, because I don't have the time. And then I also might have a little bit of a concern that you're so used to the for-profit world, we just don't operate that way.

Kathleen McDonald Siegmann: Yeah, we don't have the same resources that you're used to. I mean, and so I think it goes back to how far away is the lily pad from where you are and what you want to do. And there are lots of ways to get there, but there has to be a plan. It doesn't just happen. I always think of a former boss that had a great line: “Hope is not a strategy.”

Anita Brick: It's a good one. And I think that someone said that no doesn't mean no. It just means no, not this way. Yes, I think that's what you're saying, that you need to understand them well enough so that hopefully you get close to that lily pad. But if you don't, you don't take it personally. You go back and say, all right, do I still want to do this? And if I do, I didn't approach it the right way. What do I do to modify it this time?

And I think all great advice. You've given us such great wisdom. But very practical things. I would guess that by this point people listening are charged up. They're ready to go. What are three things that someone who's contemplating, or even in the midst of a career change—maybe it's not going the way they planned—but three things that people could begin to do right now?

Kathleen McDonald Siegmann: I would first say, clarify your goal. “I want to make a change” is start number one. Unpack that. What kind of a change? And get that so it is a clear goal that then you could look and say, what are my gaps? We believe that career assets fall in four buckets: network assets, performance assets, credentialed assets, and skills and talents.

And looking at your assets and saying, what am I missing? Where are my gaps, and is there a strategy to shore them up? And some of them will be easy to shore up, and those are the ones you want to focus on. Some of them will be harder to shore up, and you have to really look and say, are they going to be deal killers?

I think being really realistic about that is important, and I think probably do your homework, do your research. And so part of that is understanding the dynamics of what you'd like to move to, as well as being able to do the self-evaluation to build the business case as to what you could bring to that environment. What is the value proposition? Why you? Because just saying I want to make a change, it's about what you want. It's not the value proposition for the organization that you're targeting.

Anita Brick: Which is where you have to be.

Kathleen McDonald Siegmann: Exactly.

Anita Brick: Jim, anything to wrap us up. Any other final thoughts?

Jim McKean: I want to return to the two ideas of messaging and understanding your network. As you understand your goals and you understand who you are, you know, work hard on your messaging. Be able to tell a person in a clear and concise way who you are and how you add value. And then secondly, look at your network, evaluate your network, organize your network, your current network contacts, and begin to understand, you know, in what direction do I want to grow this group? And then start looking at exactly what you are doing on a day-by-day basis to do that? How many people are you talking to a year on your network? How much time are you spending face to face talking to your network, and what is your message to those folks?

Anita Brick: Those are all great. Your messaging is very clear and the value, obviously you've brought enormous value. Thank you so much. And for those of you who are interested in learning more about how Kathleen and Jim approach career management and career development, lots of things on the site. It's www.CareerInvestments.com. Again, Kathleen and Jim, really appreciate the time. I know you're very busy, and thanks for sharing. Really invaluable advice.

Kathleen McDonald Siegmann: Thanks, Anita.

Jim McKean: Thank you, Anita. Enormous fun.

Anita Brick: Great. And thank you all for listening. This is Anita Brick with CareerCast at Chicago Booth. Keep advancing.