Are You Ready for a Career Change?

Anita Brick: Hi, this is Anita Brick. And welcome to CareerCast at Chicago Booth to help you advance in your career. Today we're delighted to be speaking with Jane Horan, actually from Singapore. And she is the founder of the Horan Group, a strategic consulting firm focusing on the acceleration of women leaders, innovation, and cross-cultural leadership. Previously, she was the director of management and organizational development for Kraft Foods Asia in Singapore, responsible for leading the formulation and implementation of Kraft employee development, talent management, and innovation workshops.

Jane has been living and working in Asia for nearly 20 years, correct?

Jane Horan: Yes, I came over here in ’91 and haven't left.

Anita Brick: Well, thank you for doing this. I know it is getting to be late at night for you, and you're probably happy not to be sitting with me in my office, because we are supposed to get a foot of snow today.

Jane Horan: Yeah, and it's probably about 80 degrees right now at 10:00 at night.

Anita Brick: So it's Singapore. I think Singapore is lovely.

You know, we had a lot of questions. And I think that one of the—in fact, one of the questions which we'll get to later is, you know, is there a formula? And we like formulas, let's put it that way. The first big question is how do you know if a person is ready for a career change?\

Jane Horan: Yeah, that's a funny one. I was actually thinking about this myself a couple weeks ago, but some telltale signs are if you go back to school to get an MBA or an EMBA or something like that, then chances are you're looking to do something different, or sometimes move up the career ladder, right? A lot of times what you're doing is you're thinking, maybe I'm in finance and I'd really like to have a stint in marketing. Maybe I should go back to school to get a degree.

The other way is if you're just really not happy in what you're doing and you've done it for some time, that's kind of a push to get you to move on. And I guess the other is just talking to your friends and coworkers and colleagues and seeing different things going on and wondering, gee, could I do that?

So I think it's both internal forces—doing some soul searching on your own—and some external forces, and particularly now coming out of this financial crisis, I think that opens up a lot of doors for people. And they start thinking, maybe it's time to look around for something new.

Anita Brick: Well, I think that's a really good point, because over the last 18 months, I would say that people took a look back. Well, I've been investing 12, 14, 15, 16 hours a day in a job that could be pulled out very quickly with no more than a goodbye and maybe a bit of a severance. So I think you're absolutely right.

People are thinking about it differently. There was an evening student who isn't sure where to start, and he said, I'm interested in a career change, but do not know the complete path and steps. I am from a completely non-finance, non-IT background. I have eight years of experience in operations and supply chain, and I want to move more toward finance. Can you suggest any best path into finance? I know I'm not going to do investment banking, but I'm still trying to figure it out.

One of the things that we would recommend is we do self-assessment workshops, and people can find tools on the website; there are career path brochures that are really detailed. But what would you recommend if someone said, OK, I know that this huge, big bucket of finance is where I want to be, but I have no idea what part of it?

This is someone who's made a pretty serious commitment to their education, and like many people, they get really inspired by finance, and people get inspired by other things too. What are the things that you would suggest—not giving this person an answer of, you know, granular types of steps. What kinds of questions would you recommend that he ask himself to see, all right, number one, is finance right for him? And if yes, then what area within finance might be workable?

Jane Horan: I would start with working where you are now and talking to the finance person there and finding out what it all involves and what it takes, and seeing kind of what your interests are. I mean, finance can go—I've seen it go all the way into business development and strategic thinking work, as well as just kind of doing the P&Ls.

So, you know, when you're taking classes, you can see that I kind of like this. I like doing modeling. I mean, I've worked with a lot of people who love financial models and others who love to get the P&L right or the budgets right. Just by what you're doing, that would kind of take you down that path of where your interests lie.

But, you know, the thing about it is, is a lot of times when people make a career change—and that's, to me, a big one, deciding you're going to go into finance—I would do a lot of due diligence. I would talk to finance people. I'd find out the pros and cons of what it is to be a finance person. What does that mean? Is it modeling? Is it P&L? Is it forecasting?

Anita Brick: Is it investment banking or investment management or private equity or VC? I mean, there's that whole array of stuff.

Jane Horan: Exactly.

Anita Brick: You know, I really would recommend going in and looking at some of the career paths. There's some detailed outline and steps. The resources they get access to …. It's a lot of self-reflection because I think sometimes people get caught in what I would call the MBA rivers, and they get really excited and it's not what they really want to do.

I mean, I had someone come in, I think, some of his classmates, were pressuring him to come in and talk about a career change, and we were talking for a little while. And then about 20 minutes into our conversation, he said very sheepishly, I actually don't want to change careers. I I love being an engineer.

I want to move up the ladder on that side. He goes, is that bad? And I think it's an important point that sometimes, if we love what we do, the MBA might enhance that or give us other leverage, but we don't have to make a career change just because we're going through a new program.

Jane Horan: You really have to do some soul searching to figure out what you want to do first.

Anita Brick: You know it's true, because often the safe bet is what we do naturally and with great enthusiasm, because you've probably seen this too over the last year, year and a half, that some people lost their job and rebounded almost instantly. And other people are still looking. And I think a lot of it has to do with that internal alignment, which kind of goes to another question about timing.

Another weekend student said she's going to be graduating in four months and hasn't really had time to think about career change. Her friends are telling her that a career change after graduation isn't really easy or possible. What are your thoughts about having a career change unfold? Maybe six months, a year, or even longer after receiving your MBA?

Jane Horan: My feeling is that there's a high, and I actually think there's research out on this. There's a higher percentage of people who change their jobs after receiving an MBA, so maybe it could be three months or six months after that. And I think it's back to the other question you're talking about. If you haven't had time to figure out what you want to do, like you're too busy, maybe you're working hard and you're trying to get your MBA at the same time, and you're just flat out, use all the resources that you have for the alums on your site and kind of figure out what you want to do, spend some time really plotting it and then make the change. I don't really think you need to do it before you graduate. I don't think there's any hard, fast deadline. As a matter of fact, I think you can do it at any time, a career change, as long as you're mindful of what you want to do and you've got some plans in place.

Anita Brick: And I think that, you know, there may be a couple exceptions, you know, like investment banking, that is harder. But I think you're right. There were two questions. One person said, I'm thinking of changing careers, which involves getting another bachelor's degree. I'm 42 and I'm wondering whether I'm just being foolish. I'm looking to feel fulfilled in my career, but wondering if work is just that: work. Any insight in making a career decision would be appreciated. So is work, just work?

Jane Horan: This goes back to the financial crisis. I think a lot of us, a lot of people out there, took this opportunity to go, what do I want to do? Where are my interests? And particularly when you're in your 40s. So there's a lot of life-changing things going on, right? You probably work for, I don't know, 15, 20 years and think, OK, what am I going to do?

I don't think that work is just work. I think the most wonderful thing is to find work that you love, and you get up every morning, you go, you know what? This is exactly what I want to do. Now for some people, you do that, but you're not making the money you want to make, and then you have to make some decisions around that.

I don't really understand going back and getting a bachelor's degree. Yeah, I mean, that's an interesting one for you. If you already got an MBA, then why would you go back and get a bachelor’s? The only thing that I could figure out is, from this question, if the person wants to go into teaching, because…

Anita Brick: Or it could be a very technical kind of degree. I was thinking that maybe it's something in a completely different field. It's something very technical. But I think that your point, though, is, is the degree the right degree, and are there other pathways to get to that career change? Sometimes a degree is an OK thing to do, and sometimes it's a great thing to do. And sometimes there are other avenues.

It sounds like what you're saying is really take a step back and think about—if you have this career, what's the way? But I think this question is actually a bigger question, and that he's saying, should he just be satisfied to make the money he needs to have cash flow? And is fulfillment really something that he even should be looking at?

Jane Horan: Well, I lean toward fulfillment. Yeah, I think we should all go for that. I mean, why not? You spent a lot of time working. If you're 42 or 52, you spent how many years working eight hours a day or whatever it is, find something you like to do and go for it. Life is too short to just not be happy.

Anita Brick: And it could be with this person that there are different avenues to get there. And it sounds like your message is that to be more successful overall, of course you need to be skilled, but you also need to actually like what you do to accelerate your progress.

Jane Horan: Yeah. I mean, when you talk about the technical part, I was thinking, well, maybe this person wants to go back and be an engineer or something in high tech and technology, and then maybe that is required by an organization he's looking at. But if that's the case, I would think that somebody with this skill set that had an MBA that's probably managed people, has been in a management role, there would be ways to get around that. Maybe it wouldn't be a bachelor's, maybe certain courses that you take.

Anita Brick: Good point. There was another person who said he was nearly 50 and he wants to make a career change, but he's getting resistance from his family. I think—it sounds like they're concerned that he won't be making as much money, and that they're telling him he's too old. Have you worked with people who are over 45, 50, who've made career changes?

Jane Horan: Yeah, I have. I guess I should have said at the very beginning of the call, I'm forever the optimist. That's a tough one when you're talking about family, there's no doubt about it. But if you sit down with your family and say—University of Chicago students like processor systems—get a spreadsheet and say, look, here's what I want to do.

Here's the amount of income that we can have while I'm pursuing this. Here's what it will be at the end when I've achieved it. And here's some sacrifices we'll have to make. And here's some things that we won't have to sacrifice. Like we will have the home, or the mortgage will be paid, or yes, you will get to go to that great school.

Do it from a business—you know, think about it from a strategic point of view. Draw up a business plan and talk to your family about what you want to do. I really believe that not only can you make a career change at 40, 50, or 60, I think you have to. What I've seen going on is—and I find this fascinating—people who've worked at companies, say, anywhere between 17 and 25 years, recruiters and HR leaders, even business people go, what? You haven't done anything else?

Because there's so many people changing all the time now. So you always have to be looking on the horizon. And I think that's a very forward-looking person that says, you know, I want to do something different. Here's what I want to do. Here's the little sacrifices we'll have to make to get there.

Anita Brick: So let's switch gears a little bit and talk about strategies. This next question is from an Executive MBA student. An EMBA student. He said, I really enjoy working for my current employer, but still would like to make a functional career change. What would you recommend that I do to make the career change inside my current company? And really, I think what he's asking is how do I mitigate the perceived risk to my employer.

Jane Horan: You know, kind of depends on the company that you work for. But what I'm seeing is a lot of companies like the movement around the organization because they get well-developed leaders. But I see in finance kind of marketing, finance, going to HR, going into the business. I've seen a lot of movement.

Anita Brick: How do they start employers to do that, though?

Jane Horan: I would actually take some steps and I would take this out of a book on being organizational savvy. So I would find someone who's in your corner. Who do you know inside the organization who is supportive of you? Let's just say you want to go into marketing and maybe you're in finance, right? Who do you know in marketing that has power that you need to get to know to talk about your plans?

Obviously, you have to keep human resources or a career person in the loop on this and start making steps to find out who you need to know in that function, what they need and how you can fulfill that need. Find out also who are the resistors and what's being said about you. What is this marketing role? You need to be really strategic. If you're seen as excellent at details and great with spreadsheets, but not a strategic thinker, you need to change that perception about yourself. And there's ways that you can do that.

So I think you need to be very mindful. I think you need to be open and tell people what you want and then start promoting yourself with values. And you have to have some substance behind you of how you can do that job. Start talking to people to say, well, here's how I can tackle that.

Anita Brick: Let's take a step back. It's really hard to figure out who those key decision makers who can actually allow you to either move into a new function or do a project for them, and it's kind of a secret. How do you develop that organizational savvy to know who to talk to, who can actually have some power and influence?

I think it's better if we talk about it in a concrete way. So say you want to move into marketing, right? You find out who's in charge of marketing, you find out who is the most powerful person in it. Typically marketing will have a line into a CEO or a managing director. Then you find out, who do you know that knows this marketing person?

What decisions are being made? What's the direction they're taking it? I actually do think it's very easy. If you go into any organization, you can find out who has power or perceived power in formal power or formal power. And then you start mapping yourself to figure out, how can I meet that person? You take them to lunch, you call them up.

And one thing about leaders is they always like to be asked questions about themselves. Yeah, like when I tell people to do this and I've often counseled them to do this, they're like, well, what do I say? That in itself is a bit of a problem. But I always tell them, look, people love to talk about themselves, so just ask questions.

Get a list of questions that you're going to ask. How did you get to your job? What do you look for in an employee who's successful? Who's not successful? Then figure out your plan around that.

Anita Brick: And then how do you then make the case—again, because there are political issues here. How do you make the case quietly, or do you make it quietly? Because your current manager has needs and you know, there's not a lot of hiring going on. So how do you get the support of your current manager to actually talk to people and make that kind of move?

Jane Horan: That's probably the first step. Counseling people both inside, when I work for companies, and outside, you have to tell your boss what you're doing. You have to tell your boss your aspirations. A very forward-thinking company would ask for that. When I worked at Kraft, we always asked talent what their aspirational goals were and how we could help them get there.

Now that's a great forward-looking company, right? But you have to talk to your boss first and say, here are my plans. And what does your boss need? They need somebody to fill your role. If you want to move on and go to marketing as your go-to strategy, how are you going to solve their problem for them when what they see is talent leaving?

So you need to make certain you've got people either underneath you or people that you know inside the organization that want your job. You need to solve the problem for your boss. You can't just say, I want to go here, and this is what I want to do. You know, they need their function to be functioning properly.

Anita Brick: And I think it's a really good point, because I remember there was a student who was moving from a tech role into a general management, a leadership rotational with another company. And he felt bad because he liked his employer, but he also knew he needed to make the move. And so we worked on his exit plan, and he put together a very detailed exit plan that showed how things were going to continue, how the projects were going to continue to advance, just like what you were talking about.

And he presented it when he gave his resignation. What he did is he actually created a lot of value out of that. And his manager said, this is exactly why we don't want to lose you. If you ever want to come back, please always keep us in mind. And I think the way you leave a job is often the way you find the next one.

And it's really important to do exactly what you said, you know, have that exit plan, do it graciously, and show that you're thinking about not just yourself, but the overall impact of the organization.

Jane Horan: That sounds like a fantastic way to do it. And you're right. If you do leave and think, oh, this didn't didn't work out for me, or I'm not so certain on that function, if you've left the door open, that you're still a valued employee, it makes a whole lot of sense all the way around. And you just have to figure out what your boss needs.

I mean, after all, we all have bosses that we work for and part of our role is supporting them and supporting the organization for success. That's the way you need to be thinking as you're thinking toward your next move.

Anita Brick: There are a few questions around wanting to make a career change without previous experience, either full time or internship. Two of them were people who are currently in school. One person was an alum, but I guess the overall question is, how do you convince a potential employer that you can do the job if you don't have a track record in that field? And how can you switch careers if you don't have the requisite skills?

Jane Horan: I believe there's two areas in this one. One of the things I'd recommend, and I know this takes time, but I actually heard this from my McKinsey partner and actually know that McKinsey does this. I worked with a great McKinsey partner about four or five years ago, and he said to me that what he did is he volunteered at an art museum.

He was really passionate about art, and he got on the board and he started making comments, lending his expertise and strategy on what this art museum could do. Within about a year or two years, they came back to him. No, he had no background in art history. They asked him to be the curator of this museum. He was overwhelmed and completely, you know, thrilled with it.

But it wasn't what he wanted to do. But that lesson showed him that just lending—even if you join a board, the requirements are, what, once a month you go to a meeting and you lend your expertise—but you have exposure to so many people on that board and you're helping out and you're sharing your knowledge. This might catapult you into an area that you're interested in.

So I would highly recommend joining a board or doing some type of volunteer work and pro bono. I don't want to volunteer, but more pro bono to say, you know, let me lend my expertise in this area. And then also you learn about the other areas that you want to go into that on a resume looks fantastic.

The other avenue I would take is the same one that we talked about with the person who wants to move functions. I would find out who do I know inside that company? What are they looking for? How do they know me? How can I raise my profile? And I'd also start looking at some of the things that I've done, because a lot of times it's not about the technical skills, it's about your people skills and your leadership skills.

Anita Brick: It sounds like in effect, you are getting some experience, but you're using some perhaps more creative ways, like volunteering, being on a nonprofit board, to get experience. And maybe part of what you're getting is confidence, so that when you do have those conversations, you can come across with greater authority and credibility.

Jane Horan: Absolutely. And I do a lot of work with women, and I try to encourage all of them to join a board. It's probably the best learning experience you can get. I've also worked with some other CEOs here in Asia who work at some high-tech companies, and they all swear by doing board work, even though they're really busy with their jobs. They're running multimillion-dollar segments of a big IT company. They do board work. One, it raises the profile of their company, and two, it raises their profile, and three, they learn.

Anita Brick: Yeah. And the contribution. We all feel good when we make a contribution. And I think sometimes when you are in a situation where you're volunteering, as long as you're not strategizing every nanosecond, people see who you are and they want to work with you because they see what you do and your work ethic and the quality of the work that you do.

Jane Horan: Yeah.

Anita Brick: So there were two questions, and I wasn't really sure where to put them, but I thought they were important. So one person was making a career change, and the other person had already made the career change and is trying to figure out how to manage the environment. They're actually both evening students. But let's start with the first one.

And he said being an information security and risk professional for the past 15 years, I've gained valuable skills and insight. However, I don't see utilizing skills in my MBA as I continue down this path because I'd probably peak as the chief information security officer for a company. A career change seems imminent, and all paths suggest that an entrepreneurial role may be the way to go.

My question to you is, do you believe that I may have a loss-of-identity crisis when I move from being a reputable, credible security professional to yet another struggling entrepreneur? So that's a very interesting question. So here, this person obviously has had a lot of growth and success in his career, but also has a passion that drives him to entrepreneurship, but he's worried about what people will think. What would you advise this person to do? I think in part to beef up their own belief in themselves, but also a strong sense that they're doing the right thing.

Jane Horan: But the question I took from you was, is it what other people would think? Or is it his or her, I don't know, loss-of-identity crisis? It's kind of like the thing where your identity is tied to your job and you come from a reputable company, and then now you're deciding, I want to go on the entrepreneur path.

You know what? The first point is, you will have an identity crisis, there's no doubt about it, but kind of own it and understand that this is a phase you're going to go through because you don't have that safety net. You don't. You're not going to have that regular paycheck. I mean, you might maybe get some VCs or some funding or whatever, but you're going to have days when you go, did I make the right decision?

So I guess the first step is to find something that you like. If you're doing it for the money or whatever, and then things don't go right, that's where I think the crunch and the identity crisis happens. If you're doing something that you really, really like and you know that it makes sense and you've done the feasibility study and on and on and on, you go with it.

And then you start meeting and talking to other people who have done the same thing. You start networking with other entrepreneurs or joining … What I think is a great thing is to join the chambers, whether it be the Chicago Chamber, any business networks, you're talking with other entrepreneurs, and you keep the buzz going. Kind of the worst thing you can do is sit at home in your home office.

Or maybe you've got an office in downtown Chicago and the phone's not ringing and you're looking at the walls. You need to get out there and start being with other people. The challenge I see for entrepreneurs is the fact that they are alone a lot, and they go from that big environment where they've been working in a company to now you're the salesperson, the marketing person, the finance person. Oh, and you need to fix your computer and you get to do all your travel schedules.

Anita Brick: It's true. And I think that this person made a really good point that entrepreneurship is also a career change.

Jane Horan: Yeah.

Anita Brick: And there are a lot of things to consider. And I think that there are alumni clubs virtually all over the world, and obviously alumni all over the world. There is a wonderful workshop through the Polsky Center, which you can find on the main website, and this will be the third year. It happens in July. It’s an amazing event.

There are probably 80 entrepreneurs from around the globe getting support, like you said, and some of the ideas were, you know, pretty straightforward. And some of them were kind of wacky, but they had potential as well. And so maybe finding a local group that focuses on entrepreneurship from wherever you're listening and consider putting in an application to do this workshop in Chicago in July. It was quite an amazing thing.

So the other question about making transitions, there was a woman who said that she made the move from consulting to investment management with fund management. It sounds like the change from a skill standpoint went just great. What she said was that the environment is kind of toxic and few or no women in analytical roles.

And so it's really been an extreme change and work environment. Well, her question is, you know, how does she make it a healthy environment? Before we answer that, I think one of the questions is, how do you identify what the culture is going to be like, both from a new function or industry and of course, from a new company? How do you identify what the qualities of the culture are? Because that's an important factor in making a career change decision as well.

Jane Horan: So completely. I've seen a lot of people think, oh, I want to move to company X, and they're not quite familiar with what the culture of that organization is like. It's huge. One of the things that I recommend is when you're making a career change, understand your own values, like who you are and what drives you, and make certain that you're going after organizations that have those same values.

How do you find it out? There's very easy ways and it's just kind of tuning your lens a little bit differently. One of the things that I do is I read the website of the company. People say, oh, but that just tells you what they want you to hear. It doesn't. One time I was looking at investment banks, and Goldman Sachs is really wonderful, writing about people and helping people make a difference.

And then I went to another investment bank and all they mentioned was their product. So right then and there you can see the difference between do they invest in people or do they invest in products? When you go for the interview, start looking at a company, you start looking at the furniture, how people greet one another, how it's organized.

Is it really neat? Is it kind of free for all and out there? How do people dress? How do they greet one another? All these little signs will give you clues into what's happening at the culture. There's little telltale signs. And then you start talking to people. And the most wonderful thing about the internet is blogs and blogs on companies.

And I would read everything I could about that company or function to see what really goes on there, how things get done. So I would do that first. Then I would go check with my colleagues and friends who know me really well to say, here's what I'm seeing, here's what I found out. Do you think that's for me? Does that seem like some place that I would fit?

Because sometimes we deceive ourselves. Perhaps over a brand? I think I just really want to work there, but it might not be the right place for you.

Anita Brick: That's a really good point. There is an Executive MBA alumna who about six months into her program, she started asking that question. First, people were like, well, go figure it out yourself. But then she kept asking and they were like, no, I don't see you in that. Yes, I see you in this. Some of her friends were like, you're asking other people to make this decision for you.

And she said, no, I'm just seeing how people observe me now that they've known me for six months, what are they seeing? And it actually helped her tremendously. And she made a career change that most people thought was impossible. But she had done such deep, strategic self-reflection. She knew what the objections would be before she ever walked in the door, and so it really helped her smooth that out a lot.

Jane Horan: So it's really smart—first making a career change, but secondly, even finding out the perception, or some people call it the buzz, on you. So what's the perception about you? Are you seen as strategic or are you seen as detail oriented? Are you seen as a decision maker or kind of flighty? You need to know that information for yourself, for your career, but also for, like you said, from when you're making a career change.

Anita Brick: A very good point. Are there any things you would recommend that she could do to influence inside environments so that it was a bit healthier, now that she's already made that career change?

Jane Horan: You know, healthy is defined in many ways, right? What I think is healthy, she might think is just an insane work environment. Here's what I would say to do: it sounds like you were saying it was a male-dominated environment. And I've worked with a lot of women in high tech who have some of the same challenges.

The number one thing is to find a mentor or a sponsor. And again, it goes back to examining the power inside the organization. So who has power? Because believe me, if there—and I don't really want to go down the gender lines, but men are much more strategic and more intentional about having lunch with power. Women have a tendency not to do those sorts of things. If we're more strategic or more intentional—you go into a room, you figure out who has the power—go to lunch with that person and talk to them about what you're doing and, you know, make it—obviously a business luncheon has a purpose, but then also ask them, if the relationship goes well, if they could be your mentor to help you smooth the transition into this environment.

Or if there are some things that you want to do, maybe you've got some good ideas, but you need help in trying to sell those ideas. I think it is probably the best thing you can do … of all the women I've worked with, the really successful senior women, they've all had a mentor that has helped pull them through. You also might need to shift or this person might need to shift how they do things.

There's a big difference in the way men and women speak. And Deborah Tannen wrote that book years ago: You Just Don't Understand or 9 to 5, and it's really true. Women have an indirect style of speaking, where men have a very direct style of speaking. Shift and see how others, when you talk about culture, how do others work in that environment? Can you mirror that same behavior, and does it fit with your values?

Anita Brick: Good point. And so it sounds like from our conversation … and do you have time for maybe one or two more questions?

Jane Horan: Oh, sure.

Anita Brick: OK. Great. It sounds like “Are you ready for a career change?” Part of it is the “what”—you know, is it going to be an internal career change, external career change, entrepreneurship? The timing—we talked about the timing and being able to show very clearly, both to employers why the time and how you're a good fit, but also to have your family support, especially if they may not be comfortable because it's kind of walking into the unknown.

And from this last question, really make sure that you know what is important to you, what your values are, and that you’ve done enough investigating both on the net and also having networking conversations with people to know what really is important, what really is valued in the company. So you're making that decision on sort of a multidimensional plane?

Jane Horan: Absolutely. You really need to do your due diligence. And what I find is what people do, they'll spend a lot of time looking at salaries or job titles or benefits, which is important, there's no doubt about it, but very little time examining culture. The way things work. Is it a process-driven company? Is it a laissez faire company?

Are people casual or are they formal? All of those are really important because you're going to be working there a lot of hours and probably a lot of days. So you need to see if it fits with who you are.

Anita Brick: True. An alum asked—I didn't find anything, but I thought I would ask you anyway. Jane, have you developed a checklist or blueprint to help guide one's thinking through the process to answer the question, are you ready for a career change? Or is there anything like that that you would recommend?

Jane Horan: The one thing I would recommend is an assessment of yourself, and I know that you have a lot of tools. There's one that I found that I think is probably one of the best tools for understanding yourself in a career. It's called the Harrison Career Assessment. You can actually do it online. What makes it so wonderful is it actually kind of pinpoints your interests, the preferred work environment—which is what we've been talking a lot about—your interpersonal skills, what's your motivation and how you make decisions, what's your leadership style.

And it brings you through this forced-choice analysis. And it lists kind of your ideal profile of what type of companies would be good for you to work in, what type of careers would be good for you. And interestingly enough, the Harrison Career Assessment is used by a ton of Fortune 100 companies from McDonald's to Nestlé's and probably all the ones that recruit out of your school. So I would start there.

And the other one, I would sit down and do, for lack of a better word, some soul searching. I'd find out who I am. I'd look at my job now and find out what I like about it, and find out what my strengths are and what my development needs are. Then I’d look at the job that I want to go to and figure out, match that. Then I’d look at the external market and what's going on, where the trends are, where it's headed, see if there's any innovative ideas or opportunities I could come up with.

You really need to kind of look at what was your best job and what did you like about it. I'd actually even go deep into when you first started working, what was your favorite job and what did you do and why did you like it then? What was your worst job? What did you do and why did you not like it?

And this doesn't take a lot of time. And you know, if you take the train to work or a bus, you could sit in … or in the shower in the morning, kind of think about it, then put it away for like a day and then go back to it and reread it. And that's going to give you great insights into where you're headed.

Is there a tool kit? I know we could all make one up kind of easily. There's probably dozens on the internet for that, but that's the way I would do it.

Anita Brick: I think those are great recommendations. And there is a chapter from CareerCast in, I believe, June 2007. It was the self-assessment chapter from a book called For Executives Only. If you're listening, you can go there and download it and it takes you through a process not that dissimilar from the second one, where you're doing a lot of soul searching, but you're looking at kind of the seven most important stories in your career.

So it's a good suggestion. Now you've made the decision that you're ready for a career change. If you are going to give advice to individuals who are embarking on that change, once they've made that decision, what are the top three things that you would tell them?

Jane Horan: It's going to be something that they've all heard a thousand times.

Anita Brick: That’s OK; repetition is how we learn.

Jane Horan: But one of the things I'd say is you need to get out there and network. If you've made the decision on the career change and where you want to be, or what industry or what area, then you need to go out and seek people out in that industry to let them know about you.

And I was just at a talk last week, which I found phenomenal. You know, you can always learn something. So this woman said, get your elevator pitch down, don't fumble. Think of three adjectives about you. So one could be strong in international marketing. Understand the luxury goods industry in and out and be very strategic and keep practicing that. So you've got it down.

And so when that person leaves that you've met that day, they remember you by those adjectives. And make a point when you go into a room of not just, you know, meeting everyone, but they said, make a point of meeting three to five people and have really meaningful conversations with them. And then follow up: remember the conversations and follow up and say, oh, you remember we met at the Irish Business Council when we talked about the luxury goods industries in China.

I found this article. I thought it might be interesting for you. It's about being really intentional when you network. I mean, I think networking’s getting a bad buzz these days, but I would agree it's really the only way. I like to call it weak links or weak ties. And I think there's a scientific theory. The weakest link—really, the person you're sitting next to on a plane might be the person that's going to offer you a job, but they're not going to do it unless you've got your pitch down and are ready to say what you do and what you can offer.

Anita Brick: Because networking is one; having your story down is another. And actually, the January 2010 CareerCast was on stories, and it was Duncan Mathison—he did a really great job, and so, right. Network, story; what would be the third piece of advice for someone embarking on a career change?

Jane Horan: I would get to know the best people in that industry or the top five people in the industry and call them and talk with them and find out how they got where they are today. And also just find out what's going on in the industry or the function. You know, even if you say, look, I want to move into innovation.

Find the top five people in innovation in the East Coast of the United States or wherever you are, which is very easy to do. Send an email to them, call them and find out what they're doing, find out how they got to where they are today, any insights and trends or information they could give you.

Anita Brick: How do you get them to actually respond?

Jane Horan: Not everybody is going to. Right? That is a good question because you don't want to be needy: Oh, tell me how to get there. You want to go there asking for information. And I picked innovation because I do know someone in the US who's now been named as one of the top 10 people in innovation. He went after this and started a blog and does a lot of work in innovation, and has made a name for himself.

If you sent him an email, he would answer it. How did you get there? What did you do? What do you recommend? What are the top three innovation trends? People are willing to give information. and the ones that don't, you just go to your next list. You know, they could be too busy. They could be going through some type of crisis themselves or something personal happening. I mean, don't take it personal. If they don't get back to you, just go to the next person on your list.

Anita Brick: Any other final words of wisdom that you'd like to share? No pressure.

Jane Horan: I think the most important thing is spend the time figuring out what you want to do. Use whatever tools are available. Like you said, you've got the tools from the June 2007 podcast or other tools. Spend some significant time soul searching and finding out who you are, what your values are, and then go after either the function or the industry or the organization that matches your goals and matches who you are. That's where I spend a lot of my time.

Anita Brick: And it sounds like you've done the same thing. The words that you're sharing are actually the words you live by.

Jane Horan: Absolutely. I've been through this a lot. That's why I firmly believe in it.

Anita Brick: Jane, thank you. I know that it's now getting really late in Singapore, so thank you for making the time to share your insights and wisdom with students and alumni from around the world from Booth.

Jane Horan: Thank you. It's been fun. I enjoyed it.

Anita Brick: Jane does have a website if you are interested. There are lots of good things up there. It's TheHoranGroup.com. and thank you all for listening. This is Anita Brick with CareerCast at Chicago. Keep advancing.