Winning From Failing

Anita Brick: Hi, this is Anita Brick, and welcome to CareerCast at Chicago Booth. To help you advance in your career. Today, we're delighted to be speaking with Josh Seibert, who plays a significant role at Sandler Training and is the author of a great Book, by the way, Winning For Failing. He's recognized internationally as a business development expert specializing in executive sales consulting and sales productivity training, often drawing on his experience serving aboard a US Navy nuclear submarine.

Josh informs and motivates leadership and sales teams to achieve their full potential. He has written numerous articles for business magazines and news periodicals, and he's been heard for over ten years hosting business radio shows and is a sought after keynote speaker. Josh, we feel very privileged you are able to make some time for us today.

Josh Seibert: Well, certainly it's my honor and my privilege.

Anita Brick: We're excited. I want to jump in with a question from an alum who said, I don't like sailing, and my family is very failing friendly. As I am starting a new venture, I want to find ways to embrace failure. Where could I start without it being too painful?

Josh Seibert: Well, I get asked that a lot, and I'm wondering if that's the real question or if the real question is behind that one. It's our perception of what failure is and what failing is. I would suggest you think of it differently, and I described failure and failing in two different categories. Failure is a noun. Sometimes we take it very personally.

We are failures and you are a failure. And I grew up in a world with my family where there were some high expectations of me. First born son grew up in a little small town, and failure was defined in my mind early on as a personal self-esteem issue, as a failure as opposed to failing, which I define as a results or event oriented descriptor. We recast failure and failure. And let's talk a little bit about failing in the benefits of doing that, as opposed to feeling as though we are a failure to me, failure is when I don't try, when I don't learn, when I don't try again, I quit, but failing to me, I separate. That's rule based versus identity and I don't accept me being a failure, but I can accept me failing in a role that I'm performing.

You know, we all do many things in our life and we carry hats and roles and we fail at some of those roles. It's how we translate that failing, experiential failing into our identity. We were born perfect in this society puts these rules on us, and then we're greeted upon these rules of good, bad 4.0 versus a zero, you know, so all of these parameters are imposed upon us by society unless we can separate the role performance that those guide and who we believe we are in our self, our self-image, our self esteem, we have that conflict of being a failure as opposed to allowing a failing event in one of the roles that we

play. So the first thing that I would cast to the question is, how do you define failure and does that need work? First, you are never a failure. You are never, ever a failure. You may fail at an attempt at something in a role that you have, but you personally are never a failure and you have a right not to be. You first have to believe in yourself.

Anita Brick: Many people look at it as 0 or 1. There is no graduation. And a full time student asked, and I think maybe this will help us a little bit with that. Dear Josh, I failed very little. How do you learn to make small failures and why is it really necessary not to succeed?

Josh Seibert: Sometimes that's a very good question. I feel very little. Well, I'm in the training and development business. As you know, if someone is not failing enough, that's as big a problem, if not bigger than someone failing often. And what that says is that we reduced our scope such that we cannot fail or we won't tolerate any failing, therefore we won't fail.

Well, failing to grow is a failing event as well, and failing to grow contributes to failure as we've described before. So maybe search your soul, search your behaviors, and ask yourself, am I preventing growth by virtue of not allowing myself to experience failing? More often than not, that's the case. I'll use an example in the world of leadership, in management generally, and when someone reduces the scope of their role such that they cannot fail, that means people are passing them by from that point forward.

There is no status quo in this world. You're either growing or you're stalled and you're moving backwards because people are passing you and the world is passing you by. We have to allow ourselves enough failure so that we can grow. We won't grow without experiencing the new boundaries of risk and experiencing those new areas and those new things. There would never be anything invented if someone didn't take risks. The element of risk is what needs to be accepted.

Anita Brick: It's funny because I grew up in an entrepreneurial family where there's always risk. I mean, we're pretty low tech today, but we wouldn't even be on a telephone if someone hadn't taken a risk. I liked the idea of being able to find lower risk ways to experiment. So if it doesn't work out the way we want it to. All right, so, you know, maybe we lost a little face here or there, but then in the end, it isn't cataclysmic. I think it goes on to a question that even now an executive MBA student had said, I love your idea of a controlled failure. Yet I'm struggling with this as I'm building relationships in my new targeted field. I'm a career changer and I know there's inherent risk. But have you seen people mitigate that risk?

Josh Seibert: First, I would advise or suggest looking long term. First, what is the end goal? What are you trying to achieve long term with your career path as opposed to tomorrow? Search for motivation first. You know what's motivating you to reach the goal that you have the end goal in your career and this is the first step. So for two focused on step one without having some peripheral vision and long term vision as to what we're trying to accomplish, we hesitate to take that first step because we believe that that first step determines the success or failure of the long term goal.

When when it doesn't, to step in a staircase on the way to a platform for which you may live for a while, but you're going to go to another platform even beyond that, look long term to allow yourself to take a deep breath and consider that controlled risk is determined first by how much is it worth to me personally, professionally, get to that goal that I really want to achieve, which is not what I do today or tomorrow, but a long term.

And as we break it down into defining risk for what my next step is, certainly we don't want to take a next step that would cause catastrophic failure such that I could never reach that goal. There are steps that we can take somewhere between the ones that will get us nowhere, and the ones that will risk catastrophic failure are the ones that we can determine based upon that. Take that risk. Go one more step than the risk that you believe that you are comfortable with, not so far as the one that will cause catastrophic failure. But take one more step beyond and do it.

Anita Brick: And, you know, it's interesting, and I think that you've kind of answered this question. There was Allen who was talking about being inclined to strategize in order to succeed in coming up with that optimal balance of risk taking. I don't think that there's a static point of optimal balance in risk.

Josh Seibert: There never is. Because you know what? I've always found successful leaders will have a vision and set goals towards that vision. But when they get close to that goal, they recast that goal into a new vision. Successful leaders are never satisfied with just simply accomplishing a goal. That's one of the medals along the way, one of the milestones along the way. But whenever they get close to reaching that goal and realizing that vision, they find that they're no longer satisfied with that vision. And they pick up that javelin and they cast it another 100 yards.

Anita Brick: Anyone listening to this call who's going to work on through such an intensive commitment of time and all kinds of resources, I think we're always pushing it. Sometimes they have to step back and celebrate a little bit. We are all recasting that. One of the things I love about this part of the book is that evening MBA students said, well, I understand that I need a good attitude and to know what to do, which I believe I have, but where can I get intensive practice? And in my case, it's in networking without failing to build relationships. Because I know if I misfire on this, I might not be able to make my career change.

Josh Seibert: You've developed some support groups and in networking in that discipline, in and of itself, it requires that you interact with support groups. So now you have a practice ground that when you continually challenge yourself within those networks, you have the place to do it. I would suggest that one get some professional training on networking or in networking. And then secondly, I would suggest that you get a coach, a coach to help you when you stall, when you're having challenges, that reinforcement of attempting something, allowing the failure to happen and learning from that failure.

And sometimes we get stuck and we get fearful. Coaches help us get through those barriers. Everyone needs a coach. Yes. So those two things are going to help you. That cycle of the knowledge that you have and you're applying it and you're balancing it back to the knowledge, expanding the knowledge again, applying and adapting that with a coach, helping you with that, that is reinforcement that will help you along the way.

Anita Brick: I would love to get your thoughts on this. When people have a list of who their top ten are, let's just say target companies are. They practice networking because they go to the top right away. And I think it's risky to do that. I usually encourage people to start with companies you have interest in, of course, but not your dream companies because you will get better at this over time.

Josh Seibert: Well done Anita, and we encourage this all the time. Whenever you're learning a new skill or attempting something new, allow yourself to fail in a controlled environment. What you've just described is a controlled environment. Don't pick your top best opportunity to go attempt for the first time. Choose low risk so your advice is very sound. Start with lower risk opportunities, but make them live role playing is wonderful and it's helpful.

But when you do go live and you need to go live, don't go live all the way to the best opportunity that you have first. There are plenty of those that you can attend. In a developmental environment. And who knows, you might find that there's some things I didn't know about these other companies that, wow, I really could utilize.

Anita Brick: And people are surprised what it is. And this is a little tricky for me. You have lots of really great insights, and maybe you can give us a little bit of a playbook here. This gets better, whether it's something like networking and failing there, or whether it's having stretch goals or whatever. How do we make this process second nature in exactly what MBA students say, what is the process to make something second nature when the stakes are high?

I am seeking funding for my fintech venture. I want to build advocates to get there, but I'm a little stuck right now because I'm not sure how to make it second nature so it doesn't feel deaf and stilted.

Josh Seibert: There's a process in adult learning that we've utilized for years. We call it the cash model of learning. And I don't know if you're familiar with this, Anita. I describe it in the book and it's our process of going from what we call knowing something to owning something, knowing to owning. And it's a stage process that we as adults, we all go through when we attempt to change our behavior in a sustainable way for the end result.

So we're looking for this result. We're all about looking for some result. It's something other than what we're getting today. That's when we change and we grow. And as we're pursuing that result, we certainly can't continue to do the same behaviors over and over again expecting a different result. We know that's insane, right? So we know that we have to change our behavior.

So if you back into that's what we really can control. We do not control 100% of the results that we're after because there's too many external factors we have no control over and therefore we don't control that end result. But we do influence, and that's based on our behavior. We do control our behaviors 100% of the time. That's a choice.

And we have the choice to do that. Certainly we are controlled by laws and morals and ethics, I get that. So how do we get to that sustainable behavioral change? Which is the tough part. That's what's uncomfortable. That's the owning it. When we naturally behave in a way that feels comfortable for us and we're confident in it, the process starts with knowing that's the K in the formula of cash.

KSR the K is knowing we tend to want to learn first, and we fill ourselves with knowledge about what we're doing, what we're doing right, what we could be doing, maybe some new things that we didn't know, maybe some things that we know. But we were using it differently. So we fill ourselves with knowledge. That's education. It's necessary. But education without application is a book on a shelf, and we have got plenty of those.

The next stage in this model of development is adaptation and application. We take what we know and we apply. It doesn't work. Minor failure. We adapt it, we balance it back with what we know and we apply it again. That cycle of reinforcement between knowledge and application allows us to adapt and apply it such that we begin to build skills.

That's the s in cash. When we begin to build skills, that means we can apply that knowledge in many different forms and effectively, because we've done it enough times to become effective and skilled. When we get skilled at something, at anything that develops confidence. So now our role performance, as we were describing before, and the skills that we have in the roles that we're playing that feeds back into confidence, which is self-esteem, self-image.

If we're now confident and skilled, then it becomes the new habit or the behavior we replace. The old habits with the new because we're skilled and we're confident, and it's now muscle memory, it's automatic. We no longer think about it, we own it, so we just do it. So there's your path to developing, owning whatever it is that you want to own from a skills perspective, a development perspective.

That's the path. Sometimes we get there very quickly because the opportunities are high and the risk is low, and we get there quickly. Other times it takes a long time. I've been playing golf my entire life. I still have not mastered the resolve that I would hope for. It's all in perspective.

Anita Brick: Good point to switch gears there to give a little are a little nervous about the whole process. One is a weekend student. He said. I hate to lose in just about anything. When I do, my calm and professional approach to the situation often disappears. How would you suggest that I get a better handle on my emotions in the midst of a failure? So they don't work against me?

Josh Seibert: I like that student's attitude. Yes he does. I have a motto myself. I never lose. Either win or I learn. Think about that as a non loss. Everything that you do, whether you reached the success that you had, the success that you had defined or not. It's a step on the staircase. You either win that step towards that end goal or you learn, but you never quit and you never lose.

A bit of it is a mindset. Change the mindset of intolerance because we've defined failure as catastrophic. So we have to redefine that we're on our way. It's a journey. Life and the pursuit of happiness. It's a journey. It's not a destination. Sometimes we feel as though it's a destination. When I work in coach with those who have this burning desire to succeed so much that they cannot tolerate failure, they've found themselves in a spot where they're stifled in their growth because of their frustration.

And we all have those. It's about controlling one's emotions. It's very difficult to do sometimes when our emotions serve us poorly. Anger and frustration. And we don't leverage that same energy in a positive manner, it causes us to stall.

Anita Brick: It's very interesting because what I've seen in myself as well is that the area that is easy to get stuck in is whatever our weakest link. It's whatever our vulnerability is that we don't think anybody notices. It pops out when we do have a setback, or if there are some failures at some point. Again, it goes back to a lot of what you've been saying practice, practice.

Josh Seibert: In this particular instance, the student or alum. I'm excited that they get frustrated and angry with those setbacks and those failures, because that person sounds very highly motivated to attack it and get through it. Just don't get stuck in it. Let's not lose the forest for the trees.

Anita Brick: Good point. Well, there's a related question from an executive MBA student. He said, I know that a setback invariably has a lesson, yet I get frustrated with myself when I fail. What advice do you have on how to find that benefit or the lesson quickly?

Josh Seibert: You know, defining our failures is acceptable. We're willing to fail to learn. So the question here is how do I leverage it in? That's in the learning. Back to the motto, quitting and losing isn't an option. Winning and learning is. So if we know that we're going to take the risk and part of the risk is failing, we want to make sure that we learn from it, because we're going to learn much more from failing than we do from succeeding, succeeding.

We celebrate. It's wonderful to do that, but we're so busy celebrating we rarely sit back. Good leaders will analyze success. It's the right thing to do. We always fail at something. We have the opportunity to learn from there, and more often we do learn from that. I'm a big proponent of journaling and that's attitudinal and behavioral journaling.

What I mean by that is we set out to accomplish something today. Some goal, some task, something today. The behavior that we commit to is related to those tasks of achievement. I want to accomplish this. So I'm going to do this, this, this, this. I'm going to check these things off that I am going to do in my pursuit of my end goal today.

Those are the behaviors that we commit to those behaviors on a daily, weekly, monthly basis. At the end of the day, week or month, I would propose in one's journal that we honestly believe in ourselves. Did we do the behavior, not just the scorecard? Did we get the result? But did we do what we set out to do? Did we accomplish what we committed to ourselves to do in that particular role?

That's the behavior side of things in journaling. There's a value in that. And then of course, the lesson learned what happened as a result. Let's not forget the attitude part of it. We approach every day with the attitude that's going to help us sustain and achieve on that day. Those things help tremendously. So at the end of the day, what we want to do is evaluate how we feel about the things that we did or didn't get accomplished that we'd committed to on that day?

Results are results. They are what they are. But we've always got to sustain and build upon our attitudinal competence. What I don't mean is maintaining a positive mental attitude and walking on hot coals. What I'm talking about builds our confidence, our self-esteem, so that we can separate who we are as a person. Our identity is separate from the role performance that we have to achieve on that day.

You set out, you tend to get things done. External forces don't allow you to do them. You as a person are not a failure. And you have to sustain that because if that happens more often than once, we feel as though we have to internalize that failure. It must be my attitude. Behavioral journaling is essential on the path to growth and development.

Anita Brick: That's a really, really good point. I think it takes some courage though to do that. I think it takes courage to be that forthcoming with oneself. Once we lay it out, we can't go back and hide it anymore. And yet if we don't lay it out and we don't get transparency for ourselves, we will stall out at some level, which is probably a level lower than we would prefer.

Josh Seibert: I agree, you know, it doesn't have to be formal. We don't have to have leather bound journals. It can be any form or fashion and at any depth. The behavior of journaling sometimes causes us to write a lot. And sometimes it's a quick note. But the practice of journaling has more value in developmental growth than any classroom environment. It really allows us to internalize and own and utilize that learning.

Anita Brick: Very, very good point. And some people are like, well, I don't have time to do one more thing. I actually believe that what you're talking about will help someone be more efficient and effective if they even take a handful of minutes out to do it.

Josh Seibert: Good point Anita. I mean, I don't have time. Here's where I go with that. I don't choose to make time. You have 24 hours in the day and that is why you choose not to. So discover it. Why is it you're choosing not to make time for 15 minutes in the morning and 15 minutes in the evening sometime?

Anita Brick: Good point.

Josh Seibert: More important than anyone else. So calendar time for you first.

Anita Brick: If you go back and use the same cash model that you used before, it will become a habit. And I believe it will be very hard not to do it because it will be so hard wired.

Josh Seibert: I have students that have been with me for years, and I know they've got it as a habit. When we schedule an appointment and I say something like, I've got 430 in the afternoon on a Wednesday open and they shoot back, that's not good. It's my journaling time. Can we make it five?

Anita Brick: Yeah, I love those types of things.

Josh Seibert: Yes, we finally made it. That is.

Anita Brick: Awesome. Do you have time for one more question?

Josh Seibert: Sure.

Anita Brick: Okay, good. What are three things that you would advise someone who's currently, maybe in the midst of a challenge or a setback to put the whole idea of winning from failing into actually making it a habit and really applying it.

Josh Seibert: Well, first, it's a mindset. No one has ever achieved anything great by playing it safe. Greatness comes from those who are driven and have ambition and that, and I've driven to get through it. Many inventors. How many iterations do they go through before this wonderful invention? Actually happens? Edison went through over a thousand failed light bulbs before one work.

He was after something and committed to that something that he knew that learning each step of the way would get him there. That's the paradigm shift that we have to have in our mind. It will take failure. We don't set appropriate boundaries by only succeeding. We all have to experience failure to grow. Otherwise we can't grow because at some point, what if it was that this society never failed?

Nothing would come from that because we got to stretch the boundaries in society. So you carry that down into yourself and take a step back and take a deep breath where you had it long term. And what is it you're looking to do? Remember growth is a journey, and it's a journey of learning from those failures along the way.

In celebrating successes, it's simply to take the next step and allow just one more step beyond where your comfort zone is. Allow yourself to fail. One more step. Take one more risk, one more step. Again, balancing catastrophic failure. I get it, but allow yourself the comfort of doing one more thing that you're uncomfortable doing, and you'll find growth will come. It just will.

Anita Brick: Very wise, very insightful. Thank you and thank you for writing the book, winning some, failing. It's a quick read and at the same time it has all these really wonderful nuggets. Now speaking to you today, I can tell that these really come from your knowledge but also your heart. Thank you so much for making time for us.

Josh Seibert: Today, Anita. Thanks for having me on. It's always a pleasure speaking with and for an institution such as yours and I wish all of your students and your alum all the success in the world. Just take the next step.

Anita Brick: Take the next step, I love it. Thank you again, Josh.

Josh Seibert: You're welcome. Thank you.

Anita Brick: And thank you all for listening. This is Anita Brick with CareerCast at Chicago Booth. Keep advancing.