Viz-Ability – Use Your Skills, Talents, and Experience to Create a Powerful Personal Brand

Anita Brick: Hi, this is Anita Brick. And welcome to CareerCast at Chicago Booth, to help you advance in your career. Today we're delighted to be speaking with Brenda Bence. Brenda is an internationally recognized branding expert, certified executive coach, professional speaker, and author of How YOU Are Like Shampoo. And today, we're going to be talking about your second book, How YOU Are Like Shampoo for Job Seekers.

She has an MBA from Harvard Business School, and her 25-year career has been in branding, developing megabrands for Procter & Gamble, Bridgestone, Myers Squibb across four continents and 50 countries. As president of Brand Development Associates (BDA) International, she now travels the world speaking, training, and coaching individuals and companies to greater success through corporate and personal branding development.

It's really interesting. How did you personally make the leap from developing another toothpaste to helping people develop their professional brands?

Brenda Bence: That's a good question. Thanks, Anita, for having me. The proven system for building great brands—I'm a passionate advocate of it, as you said, for 25 years. Seven years ago, I left corporate America after 20 years. I started my own company about seven years ago and decided to incorporate executive coaching.

I've always loved executive coaching, and as I was contemplating corporate branding, which is what I do primarily, I was kind of thinking about my executive coaching clients and thinking, you know what? You could take those same great elements and that same proven system that goes into developing a powerhouse megabrand, like a shampoo, like a toothpaste, as you said, and use it for ourselves as individuals, for our own personal brand.

I started playing with the model, and a few years ago—and I've just worked on the system over time and step by step and used it with a number of clients at work. And so a couple of years ago, people kept saying, when are you going to put it in a book? I finally went ahead and published the first book for corporate success using personal branding a year ago, and then just recently launched the one for job seekers.

Anita Brick: Well, it sounds like it's part of your passion.

Brenda Bence: I am so passionate. I was … I retired seven years ago. You know what they say about retirement.

Anita Brick: What's that?

Brenda Bence: They say you quit working and you do what you love full time. Well, that's what I'm doing. I just happen to be paid for it. I love it.

Anita Brick: That’s very cool. It's exactly why people are listening—and listen to CareerCast in general—they want to combine their passion in a way that's profitable and really gets them where they want to go. Today's market, it seems so challenging and trying to work on your resume, prepare for interviews, network. How does personal branding actually make it easier? And then part 2 to that question is where do you start?

Brenda Bence: Well, absolutely. Personal branding does make it easier because what it does is it forces you to focus. Like you said, when all that's going on in the market right now, it's a pretty frenetic time. And it's kind of a scary time to be looking for a job. And so you tend to want to get into action, just get out there and start making things happen.

What I say is, to answer your second hardest question, sit down and define what your job seeker personal brand really is all about. And there's six elements that go into defining what that brand is all about. And when you sit down and really look at those six elements, you will craft a job seeker personal brand that will be honed, that will be focused, that will help make your job search not only more interesting and fun for you, but it will take less time because you're going to be more targeted.

You're going to know exactly what you want to achieve and where you want to go. You know, I was talking to someone the other day, and they were bemoaning the fact that they hadn't found a job and they'd been looking for a year, and they were really frustrated. And so I started asking, well, tell me, what are you doing?

Like, I've applied to 362 jobs. I'm thinking, that's not focused. You know what? You're probably applying for jobs that aren't right for you. Focus your attention on what's really right for you. And that comes from good self-reflection. Working through a system, understanding what you—the trademarked you—your personal brand is really all about, and then setting your targets and your actions to get you in that direction.

Anita Brick: One of the alums asked, what's the best way to overcome gaps in employment or career progression? In particular, he was underemployed post 2001 and has really not been able to catch up ever since then. What would you recommend to someone who has a gap who wants to craft a message to try to overcome this perception of really underachieving, rather than what he'd prefer, which would be overachievement?

Brenda Bence: I don’t think you can call it gaps in employment. There's a real negativity to that, and you used the words, I think you said “underemployed” and you said “underachieve.”

Anita Brick: So that's right. Those are his words.

Brenda Bence: Yeah, that seems very focused to me, Anita, on the past. What happened in the past. And good personal branding is learned from the past. So you can ignore it, but then figure out what those learnings are and let it go, focusing instead on really taking charge of your future, getting down to finding what you want it to be. You can't change the past anyway, right? You can learn from it and then start from scratch. If you put a whole new perspective on the future, my recommendation is to let go of the past.

Don't let that be an albatross. You know, ball and chain holding you down and limiting yourself because it sounds like a very limiting mindset. Get out of that mindset. First and foremost, start by defining what your job seeking brand really is, and then look objectively at yourself and what you're doing in your current job.

And frankly, if you're not in a job where you don't think you're going to get a skill set that you need, then I would say either change jobs—or, in today's environment, maybe that's not a good thing to do, but certainly look outside the workplace to get the skills you need to consistently think of being underemployed, find ways to employ yourself to the maximum.

And maybe that means volunteering. Absolutely. Get the kind of experience somewhere if it's not your job, and find it somewhere else, that gives you a strong reason to believe that you can deliver against what you really want to be able to deliver.

Anita Brick: So someone comes to mind, and let's take this to another level. One person who comes to mind, she ran into a very similar situation. Very capable person; they had been really targeting consulting. There just wasn't a lot of hiring going on at that time. And did other things, created visibility outside and has never caught up. But the problem is, and I'm wondering if it's coming from her. Employers seem to like zero in on that.

Well, you know, why did you lose your job and why didn't you make the career change then why, why, why? And they pull her back to the past. What would you recommend if someone is finding themselves in that situation where they're ready to move on? But the employers that they talk to keep pulling them back?

Brenda Bence: Well, again, it's hard to say without having met the person. But one of the things that … some of the hints that you're giving me is that she might be, in fact, pulling herself back. The key is to answer the questions in a way that really is forward thinking. And how do you do that? Well, number one, don't focus on the negatives. And if there are negatives in the past, hey, we all have them. Just be honest about them.

Number one, talk about what you learned from it. Because everyone loves someone who sits back and says, hey, we all made a mistake. What did I learn from it? So instead of saying, oh yeah, that happened to me back in 2001. And you know … No. Sit back, say OK, here's what happened.

You know, it was the reality. It wasn't a good experience for me. I sure did learn a lot. In fact, here's what I learned. I learned about the power of my adaptability. I learned that I'm flexible. I learned that I can laugh at myself if I need to once in a while. Very much focused. That's the kind of personal brand you want to deliver, and that's what you want to focus on.

And again, just defining that brand, saying what I really want to stand for and then making sure all of your responses, even to those challenging questions about the past, are focused on that future of what you want your brand to be.

Anita Brick: Great. An evening student, a software engineer and not a marketing person …His goal is to move into strategy consulting, but he's not sure how to create a personal brand that's attractive to consulting firms.

But what would you … like two or three things that you would recommend that he do as a start?

Brenda Bence: He wants to switch careers.

Anita Brick: He wants to switch careers, but he feels like the branding thing is beyond him.

Brenda Bence: OK, well, you don't need to be a marketing person to have a personal brand because there's a really important point I want to make here. You already have a personal brand.

Anita Brick: How do you have a brand if you haven't created one?

Brenda Bence: Right. OK, so let me just go back to how I define personal branding. The way I define personal branding is the way you want people to perceive, think, and feel about you in relation to others. Now, when it comes to job seeking, it's the way you want employers or potential employers to perceive, think, and feel about you in relation to the other people applying for those jobs.

So if you think about it, perception is reality and marketing. The way you want them to perceive. They're already doing the perceiving. They've been doing it ever since you applied for the job. Your cover letter, your résumé, is starting to create that personal brand. So they're already creating it in their mind. So it exists out there. It's just that your brand exists in the mind of the recruiter.

So it's really impactful and powerful for you to remember that. People say to me, all right, I don't have a personal brand, I don't want a personal brand. But you do. You already have one. Just by nature of being in the job search mode. OK. You have a brand, so that's really important. So he's saying I'm not a marketer, but the truth is, he's already got a brand.

So how do you manage it? That's the key question. And the number one thing I would say to start out is to really understand the needs of his targeted company. Think about where he ideally would like to be working and try to understand the need that those targeted companies have and then sit down and say, OK, that's for me.

What skill sets do I have that would respond? And it may be in a new and different way. I'll give you an example. It was a woman I worked with. Her name was Rebecca. And she was so excited—she had just purchased her first house—when her finance company downsized. And they got rid of a lot of employees, including her, and she found herself suddenly in the job market again and just terrified that she wasn't going to be able to find a job where she could earn enough money to pay her mortgage.

Now she had 10 years of experience supporting technology systems. This is ironic because you're talking about software engineering here. There really weren't that kind of openings at the time that she was looking. So she sat down and worked through it, and then a light bulb kind of went off. And she said, I came to realize that if I had … I could train entry-level new hires that need development and technology.

So she shifted her thinking away from providing services directly to in-house clients to providing the training that was needed. And there were consulting companies out there that definitely needed that. And she loves her new job, and she's really happy doing it. And of course, she's happy making those regular mortgage payments, too.

So the lesson, I would say, is to stretch your thinking. What needs in the marketplace can you meet based on the experience you have right now? Sometimes we think in silos. I'm a software engineer, so that's the only way I can think. Think beyond that. Think about what else you can bring to the table and get out there and discover what those companies’ needs are, and ask yourself how you can meet them in unique and different types of ways.

This new market takes creativity.

Anita Brick: You're absolutely right. What's the bridge from thinking about needs in the marketplace—how are your skills and your experience, even your personality can help you bridge into that, and that becomes your brand. How do you go from thinking to tactical execution?

Brenda Bence: So really just three key steps, right? The first step, and I've mentioned it already a couple times, you need to sit down and take the time to define it. And I said, just like those major brands that exist out there, every brand you love … And I could ask you which brand you love, Anita, and I bet that you tell me two or three that you use regularly. Every one of those brands … You may not have known that there are six elements that go into defining those brands, and it's a tried and true form, and it works across the world.

And even sometimes the brands managing them don't know that. But the better you know those six elements and the better you can define them, the better off you will do. The same holds true for personal branding. Yes. So let me tell you about how you can adapt, OK, for your audience. Number one, your audience: who is your audience?

Now, this is one of the funny things about personal branding. People believe, erroneously, that personal branding is all about you. It’s not. Actually, what's interesting is that personal branding is all about that audience. It's about that person or people you want to be doing the perceiving, thinking, and feeling about your brand.

So the first thing to do is get away from thinking about yourself and think about those others. What is the brand? How do you want them to perceive, think, and feel? Number two, what do they need? You know the thing about job employment, particularly today, my goodness, it's all about meeting their needs. They're not interested right now with what you can offer. If there's 150 people applying for every job out there right now, they are interested in what you can offer to them, OK? Not what you're going to get from the company.

So think about the audience. Think about the need. The third element is comparison. As I said, your job-seeker personal brand is about the way you want potential employers to perceive, think, and feel about you in relation to those other people applying. So in relation to that's the comparison piece.

The fourth element is, what are your strengths? Your strengths are what you bring to the table. A lot of people say this is where your personal brand, you know, the rubber hits the road when it comes to your personal brand. What are those strengths? And by the way, those strengths, the better they match the needs of that audience, the better brand you have.

So you want to make sure your strengths are an excellent fit. The fifth element is the reasons why. Why should I believe you can deliver those strengths? Tell me. And there's three different types of those. There's experience, there’s education, and probably everybody on this call has a great education, right. They're all Chicago Boothers.

So they have the great education, they've got the experience they need, and also endorsements. Getting people to say positive comments about you or endorse you in a way, OK. Just like David Beckham endorses Gillette, right? It's that same concept: getting people to support you.

And then the last element is the character, your brand character—your personal brand has a character. And these are kind of descriptors: the way people would describe you. And it's a fun exercise to do on character, actually stop people into … what would be the top three or four words that people would say, that's your character?

And those six all fit together. Think of it almost like a puzzle. They all fit together to fit a very tight and neatly laid out, consistent brand. And you want to focus on, as a job seeker, you want to be focusing on that audience, those corporations, the very specific ones you want to work for. Understand their needs. How do you compare? What are your strengths? Why should I believe it? And then lastly, that character element. Making sure there's a good character fit with the company as well.

Anita Brick: Very powerful.

Brenda Bence: It's really exciting to see so many people use it, because it does work. And you … the other thing, it gives you a framework. Who said, how do you get started? It's so frustrating. Well, there's a framework to sit down and really do some good thinking around it. So it's exciting to be able to share that well.

Anita Brick: And we at Booth love frameworks. We're big on frameworks.

It's a very interesting point that you make because you start to do this, and I think what a lot of people as they go through—yeah, they can identify the audience and the need, and where it falls off are those last four, and they view themselves more as a commodity than a brand. One of the alums has been working for two decades in Treasury, and he doesn't feel like he has a clear brand because he feels like he's like everyone else, and the skills he has are universal. How do you go from commodity to brand?

Brenda Bence: Twenty years in Treasury tells me … I'm making assumptions again. I haven't spoken to this person, so …

Anita Brick: That's cool. That's fine.

Brenda Bence: I would say if he doesn't feel he has a clear brand after 20 years in Treasury, he's probably a generalist. That’s what I would say. Now here's the good news: that's not a bad thing to have in today's economy. With people being laid off right and left, the people who are left continuing to work are being asked to do more and more and more. It's a good time to be a generalist, especially in something like Treasury, where you need, well, there's a lot of tough work going on in that area these days, right?

To go back to the point of trying to be compelling and differentiated in his brand, what I would say is you really need to take the time to do the exercises and really hone in and focus on what your strengths really, truly are.

Anita Brick: So how do you do that?

Brenda Bence: I mean, take a look at past performance reviews, for example. And by the way, don't focus on weaknesses, which is what we typically do when we look at past performance reviews. We tend to have a habit to focus on the one or two negatives instead of all the strengths. And look at what people have said consistently over the years in performance reviews. What are they saying? What's the common thread of your strengths?

What are the strengths that are coming through? Personality profiles and past … there's a lot of them out there. I've actually done a lot of research on these, and if people are wanting to drop me a quick note, I'm happy to share the list of all of the ones that I've researched and recommend that really do help you kind of hone out and focus on what are your specific strengths and how do you get those personality profiles.

And you know, another thing we talked about passion earlier is understanding your values and your passions. I have a good example of a woman I was coaching, and she had been in HR for 20 years and in big corporations, very successful in HR. But when she came in to talk to me, she was kind of at a crossroads.

It didn’t feel right anymore. After about a session and a half, I finally just stopped. I said, I'm going to ask you a question. I want you to say the first thing that comes to mind. Don't think about it. Just get it from your gut. I said, what are you passionate about? And she said, horses. She said, I'm very passionate and went on and on about her passion for horses.

But then she said that I can't do anything, that I'm an HR person. That's what I am. Well, I said, wait a minute, how could you use horses and your HR experience to build something unique and different? Long story short, she started an equine assisted leadership program where executives come out to her ranch. They learn how to work with horses and they learn leadership lessons from that.

Anita Brick: Wow. That's great.

Brenda Bence: Yeah, it's so great. Don't underestimate the power of understanding your passion, of understanding your values, and then leveraging them in unique ways. It really does require thinking outside the box.

Another thing about honing your strengths … go ask your friends and colleagues … I like to do this exercise. Let's just play this together, Anita. If I say the brand “Volvo,” what was the first thing that came to mind?

Anita Brick: Safety.

Brenda Bence: OK, safety. Volvo: strong safety brand. All right. Now here's the question. If I'm walking anywhere in the world... I call this my small Greek town test. I can say Volvo. And people would turn around and say, safety brand.

Here's my question. Your friends are walking down the street. They stop them and they say, Anita Brick. What would they say? Don't have to answer that. But the point is, what would they say?

Anita Brick: I think it would be something very consistent.

Brenda Bence: OK. And you want to make sure that every person you ask is getting those same two or three or four key strengths that just keep coming through and coming through, and that tells you you’ve built a strong brand.

If you're not sure how people would respond, it's probably something you ought to do. Another thing I want to really focus on here—remember, strengths come in two forms: strengths come in functional strengths … You talked about this gentleman being in Treasury, right? That's not really a functional skill. That's something he's learned over time. He's honed over time. That's great.

But some of the most powerful personal brands that exist in the world come from emotional strength, reliability, dependability, those kinds of flexibility, the ones that are more intangible. You can't put your finger on it. But that's where really strong branding comes, because in this kind of economy today, there's going to be 100 people out there who can deliver the functional need.

Your differentiation will come from emotion. You've got two accountants ... two tax accountants. They are equally performing the same in the job. And you’ve got to let one of them go. Who are you going to let go? You're going to have to go to one that probably doesn't have a good working relationship, maybe doesn't have quite as many emotional needs as the other.

It really is true. And you know, if you think about—I say it's the same for branding. I've used the same toothpaste, it's no joke, for 30 years. I've only been married to my husband for 10 years, you know, but for 30 years, I've used the same toothpaste.

Do you think I'm using it because it's cavity protection? No. It's gone beyond that. It's like I have a relationship with it. I have a relationship. And it's the same with personal branding. You're there to build up a relationship. And when it comes to the interviewer, by the way, that relationship is being built from the minute they get any kind of correspondence from you.

Anita Brick: Good point. It's a very interesting question, and it's kind of one of the most interesting questions I've ever received. And I'm not going to read the whole thing because it was rather long, but it was from a woman who worked in a group of 20 R&D engineers in an oil and gas company. She talked about hiring an image consultant and how she went from being meek and mild-mannered and getting coffee to really being much more to the point and being much more assertive, and it completely blew up in her face, she said.

She sounded kind of discouraged. Can she only survive if she pretends to be this meek, mild-mannered person? And is there any way out? What would you suggest that she do?

Brenda Bence: I think two things. One, remember that personal brands are built over time. They evolve. They're a navigation, not a revolution. So changing your brand overnight freaks people out because ….

Anita Brick: It's a good point. Very good point.

Brenda Bence: I remember once, very young in my career … I mean, even just little things like changing my image. I thought it would be funny to get a really Orphan Annie–type perm. And I showed up at work. I'd only been working there for two months. People looked at me like I had six ears. I mean, they were like, what were you thinking?

And I suddenly realized I was in the process of trying to build a personal brand of stability, reliability, you know, that kind of thing. How did they know I wasn't going to head off to Tasmania next, right, and just leave my job? I mean, I'm exaggerating a bit, but the point is, abrupt change is not the way to build a brand.

You need to be true to who you really are from the start, and then slowly build your brand. You evolve a brand over time. You don't want to have a revolution in your brand. It just confuses people.

You mentioned that she was a woman working in, it sounds like, a very male-oriented environment. I wouldn't focus on that. I would focus on building a brand that says, I am powerful. That's what I'm about. Do a good job. Quit worrying about things like the way you look. Yes, looks are a part of your personal brand. That's another personal brand myth. So many people say, oh, now it's all about the way you look now. No, it’s not. Personal branding is so much more than that, but it is one element. But it's not the only element.

Anita Brick: But your point about evolution is so important because I think we live in, especially in the western part of the world, in this instant-makeover kind of mentality—like that instant makeover is going to change my life. But you have to change—not to get too cosmic about it, but you have to change the inside too. Otherwise the two don't sync up again.

Brenda Bence: I mean, it sounds to me like, first of all, having done the basics, you got coffee and cheese to do, you know, cookies or whatever. It was, right? You have to be cautious. I mean, obviously that's one brand and that's a very specific type of brand.

Now all of a sudden she's overnight trying to be stronger and have a different look. And again, I suspect it's just kind of freaking out her colleagues. You know, it's just who is this person here? First of all, in the workplace there's enough change. There's a lot of changes. It is economic instability. There's all this stuff going on. People don't need any more change.

Lots of organizational change is happening. People want stability. More than ever, people want stability. So keeping that in mind and understanding your audience, that's key. What do they want from you? What do they need from you? Focus on responding to that and your brand will be built.

Anita Brick: Perhaps getting some external support to validate what she's going through, because it sounds like a bit of an untenable situation.

Brenda Bence: And the other thing is if she's really that miserable … Honestly, I can't imagine living and working in an environment where I was that miserable. There's a point where you may have damaged your brand or it's so hard to change, it's that you may have to start over. You know, it's going to be very hard to change that audience’s perspective of you. Sometimes you have to just be realistic.

There are brands out there that that's happened all the time. …. completely had to start from scratch, basically, because their previous target, well, basically died. Off the planet. So sometimes you have to reinvent yourself, and that may often mean switching completely to a new place and new environment and a new audience.

It's really up to the individual to make that decision. But I would sure focus on doing a good job first. And that means understanding the needs of the audience, understanding the needs of your boss—both functional and emotional, by the way—and then focusing on what your colleagues need and put your nose to the grindstone and deliver against that.

I wouldn't focus too much on being a woman in a tough environment. That's not a brand that you really want to own.

Anita Brick: That's a really good segue. There was a question from an alum who's in M&A, I'm assuming probably investment banking. The question was, you know, with all the market contractions, the person lost his job, not sure how to leverage his skills and knowledge and experience into a new brand. If the validity or the value of your brand has gone away, where do you start when you really love what you did before?

Brenda Bence: Sorry to hear he lost his job. There's so many people that's happening to these days, and it's very easy to want to jump right into action and just keep going out there for whatever's available.

But again, the number one thing I would say is spend some time really sitting and thinking about what your brand is. You said he's starting a brand-new brand or he's lost his brand. No, he hasn't. I'm going to push back a little bit, OK?

Anita Brick: That's how he feels, though.

Brenda Bence: But the truth is, I want him to hear he hasn't lost his brand. His brand still is intact. All right? Remember, it's the way you want potential employers to perceive, think, and feel about you. You've had some things happen to you, but that doesn't mean your brand has gone away. It's still there. Understand what the strengths are of your current brand and then define your desired brand. So it's kind of like … I like to make two columns.

And you know, I like to put in the left-hand column, I take those six elements and I say, what's my current brand? OK, 123456. This is how people perceive me right now. What do I want my desired brand to be? That's in the right column: one, two, three, four, five, six. And then I look and see, OK, where do I need to make the biggest change?

What's going to happen when I shift that audience to a new … who is that new audience? And what's going to happen when I shift my thinking? Which of those six elements needs to change the most to get me where I want to be? To just, again, do some really clear cut thinking and be open to what elements do need to change and what doesn't need to change.

I'll tell you one thing that usually doesn't change. I've seen this across the whole world. Your character. The truth is, your character doesn't change. That sixth element, remember we talked about, that sixth element doesn't change. I don't care if it's your personal brand, your work brand, whatever it is, it doesn't change. And if you're being true to who you really are, hold that element solid anywhere else you need to make adjustments and just be positive and focus on where you want to be, not where you are now.

Anita Brick: There was kind of a follow-on question to that, with someone who was sort of the opposite of the Treasury person who has 20 years of work experience. A student was talking about having seven years of work experience, but has been promoted so rapidly that he's ready for jobs that require 15 years of experience.

But he's really ready for them. He feels like he's too young. I mean, some people feel like they’re too old, but he feels like he's too young. Is there anything you would recommend in terms of evolving his brand to get over that “You're too young” stigma.

Brenda Bence: OK, is it that he feels he's too young, or a potential employer?

Anita Brick: Employers. He's been … I mean, he's now feeling it because that's the feedback he's been getting.

Brenda Bence: OK, first of all, I would congratulate him on managing his career well. It sounds great, so good job. I guess one of the things I would say just comes down to that first element we talked about, which is reason to believe.

Why should I believe you can deliver against the benefits or the strengths that you say you have? And this is the reason to believe. And I know I mentioned to you earlier just three of them. There's education. And of course everybody there at Chicago Booth has that powerful credential. Now there’s great experience and the endorsement. I want to focus on experience here, because basically what's happening is this person has education, probably has some strong endorsements, but really needs a stronger reason to believe on the experience side.

And that's a powerful reason to believe. And frankly, that's usually the one that carries the most weight when it comes to looking for a new job. The secret to success when it comes to using experience as part of your reason to believe, in an interview setting in particular, is just honing in on what that company really needs, and then go back into your past experiences.

What examples can I use to show exactly what I can deliver against that? How do you do that? You need to dig deep. Ask for a profile of the ideal candidate. Ask HR to give you some input into what is that ideal candidate? Talk to people who work in that company. Use LinkedIn.com to find somebody who works there and get some sense of that?

But really think about how you can meet that need, even if you have less experience, by showing crystal clear some really powerful stories and examples from your past that deliver against that. Another thing to consider when someone says they want more years of experience or that you're too young, I would say they’re trying to hire someone who has already done a lot. That's what they’re really saying.

And usually that comes with more years on the job. But it doesn't always have to. It really is your job to convince them that you have enough experience to do the job, and you can do it well. Again, I would just use example after example of examples of tough challenges you faced. Tell the story. Paint the picture of the challenges you faced.

What overcoming those challenges taught you, how you're a better manager or a leader as a result. If in the end they still don't hire you because you're too young, then I guess I would add a kind of a personal note here, I wouldn't be so anxious to get to the next rung. Don't be so anxious to get there that you overlook some great experiences and training on the job that you can get right now.

Every job offers an opportunity to really build that powerful personal brand, and if you're so busy focusing on the next job, the next job, the next job that I want, sometimes I've seen people walk away from learning some great lessons because they weren't focusing on their current job. Personal example: when I first started working at Procter & Gamble, I'd already been out of undergrad for six years, and I had my business school too, so I had eight years of experience before I started.

You know, P&G requires you to start at the absolute lowest rungs in brand management. So I was an assistant product manager right in there with people who were fresh out of undergrad. And so I was frustrated. I let them know I wasn't real happy about that. And I felt the job really wasn't leveraging my abilities. But I have to say, one of my favorite bosses, an early boss of mine, sat me down.

He said, basically, get over it. And it was great. I mean, it's such a slap in the face and I needed it. And he said, focus on doing this job the best that you can. Trust me, he said, you will do well. And you know what? He was right. I mean, once I changed that mindset and quit focusing so much about where I should be, where I should be, where I could be, I started not only enjoying the job, but doing a better job at it.

Sometimes there's a reason why companies want more experience. I wouldn't overlook that.

Anita Brick: It's a good point, because it goes back to the thing that you were really beating the drums about at the very beginning, is focus, and I think if you are focused outside of your current position, too much anyway, you are going to miss some really huge thing. So, a very good point. So thank you.

We were talking about overcoming the perceptions and making sure that we have the right approach. One of the alums asked, how do you make sure that you build a relationship with a recruiter? Because that can be helpful down the line. How do you position yourself more as a specialist or a generalist? I mean, that's a little … that question is a little bit outside of our topic today.

But from a branding standpoint, if part of the endorsers that you'd want to have would be executive recruiters—over time to build those relationships, what would you recommend doing to get those kinds of endorsements?

Brenda Bence: Well, I guess here’s the question I would have. Put yourself in that recruiter’s shoes and ask yourself, who's going to stick out in their mind? Is someone going to stick out in their mind who is very generic, very generalist, who is wide spread, or is it someone who is going to be more of a specialist and who says, this is what I stand for, this is what I'm good at. I can do other things, but this is really what I stand for.

I can tell you, it's going to be the latter. That person who is very clear about what they want and what they stand for, will stand out. It doesn't mean that they're going to eliminate you as a potential when it comes to another job. But if you want to stand out, you need to be branding yourself vis-a-vis those recruiters as well.

Anita Brick: Absolutely.

Brenda Bence: Employers have choices. And, you know, that's the thing about branding. It's true for any brand. The best brands in the world are those that have made tough choices—not just who they will target, but who they won't target. And that's the same with personal branding, especially in a job. So you should be clear about what you want, be very clear and make some tough choices.

It's one of the hardest things to deal with, is to say, who are you going to say no to? Who are you going to say no, no, no. That's outside of my realm. That's outside of my circle of where I want to be. But you have to do it. You really have to do it if you really want to stand for something.

It's kind of the Volvo example, right? What if Volvo said, I want to focus on safety, but I'm also going to talk about style and I'm going to talk about comfort. And I'm going to talk about roominess. And the brand wouldn't stand for anything. You have to be very careful. Use those six elements again to be really clear about what you stand for, and then stick to it.

Because good marketing, good branding requires making those tough decisions. And personal branding, especially when it comes to job seeking, is no exception.

Anita Brick: I think it's a very good point, because in today's environment, the tendency is to cast a really wide net, and that can actually be counterproductive.

Brenda Bence: Absolutely. In fact, what will happen is you'll end up standing for nothing. I know there's a lot of people out there doing that these days. You want to stand for something. Be clear about what your passions are. Be clear about where you want to focus and stick to that.

Anita Brick: Do you have time for like two more questions?

Brenda Bence: You bet.

Anita Brick: OK, so if we were looking at marketing our personal brand, there are two questions that I think are very much related.

One is how do you market your brand inside your company in a situation that's politically sensitive? And then the second question is, how do you market your brand externally when you want to do it confidentially?

Brenda Bence: OK, let's take them one at a time. Internally, you're going to use the same systems. You're going to use the same systems I talked about. That same brand is being communicated inside. So this time, instead of looking at a job potential interviewer, you're going to be thinking about your brand's audience inside.

And it may be one individual, maybe it's your boss, it may be a group. It may be your subordinate. To make sure you establish a strong personal brand with your subordinates. It may be the board of directors, it may be an entire finance department.

Whatever it is, you have to define who that audience is inside the company and use the same system. What do they need? And that's definitely functional and emotional. What do they need? The comparison, strength, all those things still apply inside the company, just like they do when you're thinking about recruiting.

Anita Brick: But that's brilliant, because when you do that, then you're never boasting. You're creating value.

Brenda Bence: … because it's not about you. The strongest brands in the world, brands like Starbucks and Nike. What's Starbucks doing? Starbucks is saying, we want to make you happy. What would make you happy? OK, a chocolaca mocha or whatever. OK, come on, we got that. You know, it's all about the audience. It's all about that customer.

Your personal brand is the same. You need to focus on what's going to make that person happy. You see, people think it's all about self-promotion, personal branding, but it couldn't be further from the truth. It’s not about self-promotion. It's about making sure your customer, your audience, the person who is most important for you from a personal branding standpoint—the person or people doing that perceiving, thinking, and feeling; that job recruiter knows what your brand is all about.

It's all about meeting their needs. I tell you, the whole shift happens and the most successful brands in the world focus on what makes the customer happy. It's the same with your personal brand.

Anita Brick: And you know, I was reading the job-buster section in your book, and I kept thinking about one person in particular who was so visible, let's put it that way. Maybe not good at self-promotion, but so visible. She was everywhere, and people would run in the other direction when they saw her.

Brenda Bence: Well, there's, there's something about … there's two things. One, one is being everywhere. Be careful not to overdo your brand. So making sure you're not over visible. But also don't forget to focus on the need; once again, focus on the need. Spend less time being visible and outward, and focus on what's going to build the brand you're looking for. And do it consistently. Do it consistently. Good brands take time to build.

Anita Brick: Good point. So now what if you want to market your brand, but you are employed and you want to do it really confidentially. You want to look for another job and you want to utilize your brand to do that. How do you do that?

Brenda Bence: I think that takes some just some good common sense. I think you need to work with people that you trust, and you need to make it clear that it's confidential. I mean, a lot of people don't mention that. I would be very clear about that, whether you're working with a headhunter or someone outside, whatever, and use some good judgment on that front and be ethical at the same time.

It’s not so much about personal branding—also, I don't think you change your brand much. You have to think about what that audience is. So I think it just comes down to common sense and being really clear about how you market yourself outside the company.

Anita Brick: Good point. Final question. Actually, two final questions. On the first one, it was an evening student. Her goal is to create a personal brand that is global. Is there anything that you would add to what you've already said to help facilitate that?

Brenda Bence: Are they thinking about working in different regions?

Anita Brick: Yeah, I think that's what they meant. They want to work across regions, as have you, I mean … so what would you share from your own experience?

Brenda Bence: Yeah. Well, I tell you what, if I started thinking of a global brand, I think I’d start regionally first. I did this, actually. I'm not saying that's the right way to do it. Just the way that works for me. I started in Europe first. I knew I wanted to go internationally, so I started in Western Europe and did a couple of years of work there, and then worked in Eastern Europe for about five years, and then came to Asia and worked in Taiwan, then China and then Thailand.

So I really kind of had a mapped plan of where I wanted to build a brand. I guess what I would say comes back to—I've mentioned earlier—make some choices. A global brand is a wonderful long-term objective. I probably can't get there right away. You probably have to go step by step, region by region. So be thinking about which regions are most important for you to start with now.

And then slowly build over time. It takes time to build a global brand. Same for any brand—OK, Starbucks wasn't built overnight. Take some time. Really focus, make some choices. Where would you like to start? If you could only work in one region, which one would it be first, and where would you go next? And then where would you go next? Just have a plan, a long-term plan to make that happen.

The other thing is to think—this is really important—think about what that audience needs, and each of those different audiences and those different regions will be different. Kind of like a global personal brand. You're going to be looking for similar types of characteristics.

I'll tell you, having lived overseas as long as I have, coming up on 20 years, my goodness, the things that I've learned: flexibility, adaptability, knowledge of various cultures, ability to laugh at myself—that's a good one. I've had to do a lot of that, I'm afraid. So that's important. So think about the skill sets that you want to be developed for that global brand that would be applicable to your global brand, but then build it region by region is what I would suggest. Make some choices.

Anita Brick: Got it. Finally, is there anything that you would add in terms of advice if someone was kind of embarking on this process?

Brenda Bence: Sure. Yeah. I mean, I think I'd go back to the fundamentals. Number one, to take the time to sit back and really think about what you want to be. What do you want your desired job-seeker brand to be? Where do you want to be? So many people jump into the job search without really giving a lot of thought to that. Really dig deep. Don't make it touristy, get deep. So number one, define it, using those six elements.

Then think about how you're communicating it. And remember—we didn't talk much about communication here. But communication takes place before, during, and after those interviews. And the communication comes through in the five activities we all do each and every day. And this is important to—in a job search, you're doing these as well. Your actions, your reactions, your look, your sound, and your thoughts.

All five of those go into communicating your personal brand when it comes to that job-seeking experience. And that's happening again. As I said, your actions, reactions, look, sounds, and thoughts before, during, and after that interview. They're all different. They're all really powerful and very important. So building that. And then being consistent. I also would recommend avoid damaging your personal brand.

How do you do that? I have a series I think you mentioned a little bit earlier there, Anita, which is the Personal Brand Busters. What are these things? I went out and I interviewed several HR experts around the world: headhunters, recruiters, HR, heads of HR from major multinationals all over the world, and asked them, what are the major mistakes that people are making in the job-search process?

I got hundreds of answers, but there were 20 that came through very relevant and very consistently that people are doing, and some of them are real eye-openers, I can tell you. Avoid damaging your brand. Define it, indicate it consistently, and avoid damaging that brand.

Anita Brick: There's so many really good tips in your book. One of the things that I really enjoyed, and we have copies in the Career Resource Center here, is that it's very, very concrete and very logical.

And I think that when people are in a process, whether it's building their brand or job search process in general, it's a very nonlinear process, and this framework puts some linearity around it. And I think it really helps people and makes them feel comfortable.

Brenda Bence: Well, great. That's what it's all about. I really want to help people out there get that—not just a job. I want them to get the job that they're happy in because, you know, we spend up to 75 percent of our waking hours, a lot of people, at the office, so, you know, we want to be happy, we want to be happy doing … And that's my goal, is just people being happy. I love what I do. Every single morning, I can't wait to get up in the morning and get to the office.

And I want people to feel that; I hope everybody feels that way. So the first step is getting that great job. Not just a job, but the one that really, really does respond to your passions and your values.

Anita Brick: Good, and thank you. Thank you for being a great example of that.

Brenda Bence: Oh well, it's my pleasure, Anita, it's great to talk to you. And I tell you what, why don't I post a few of those personal brand busters on the website for you? How about that?

Anita Brick: That would be great. And that was a great segue. There's lots of great stuff on Brenda's website and it's BrendaBence.com. Brenda, thank you so much. You shared a lot of really wonderful insights with us.

Brenda Bence: Oh, you're more than welcome. It's a joy to talk to you. And I appreciate you inviting me.

Anita Brick: Great. And thank you all for listening. This is Anita Brook with CareerCast at Chicago Booth. Keep advancing.