Transforming Self-Sabotage

Anita Brick: Hi, this is Anita Brick and welcome to CareerCast at Chicago Booth. To help you advance in your career. Today we're delighted to be speaking with Dr. Candice Seti. She is a coach, therapist, and author of a wonderful book, The Self-Sabotage Behavioral Workbook. She is committed to helping others gain confidence, stop self-sabotage, and achieve their goals. She maintains a private practice in San Diego, California, where she works one on one with individuals, helping them understand their maladaptive behaviors and thought patterns while replacing them with a healthier perspective that allows individuals to overcome self-sabotage and thrive.

I don't care who it is. We all do a little bit of those behaviors that you talk about in the book.

Candice Seti: Hmhm 100%. I think I'd say that right in the first chapter. We all do this. We all self-sabotage in some way or another. It's not even a question of whether or not we do it. It's a question of how impactful it is, how frequent it is, how significant it is, and what areas of our life we do it.

Anita Brick: Okay, so let's start off with an MBA student asked a question. I kind of relate to this one quite a bit: “I feel that the areas where I hold myself back are complex and interrelated. Given this, where can a person start to sort things out?” So let's overlay a second question and we can answer them at the same time. Another MBA student said: “Your workbook really delves into what a person is doing wrong. I am concerned it will exacerbate a not so great tendency that I already have. How do you make this a positive experience?” So I think if we think of those two together, how do we start and how do we create something that ultimately is appreciative of where we are, where we're starting, and where we want to go?

Candice Seti: Well, that individual, what they were focusing on is the cognitive distortion of dwelling on the negative. Inflated attention paid to negative data and negative feedback, and sort of rejecting any positive feedback that may be coming in and downplaying that. That perspective is also not uncommon to say, well, if this is negative behavior, I don't want to pay attention to it.

But the reality is the self-sabotaging behavior itself might be negative, but starting to fight it and change it can be a really positive experience. Through the process, you're identifying your wins. You're patting yourself on the back for every small success and keep building on your goals, instead of setting the bar too high and setting yourself up for failure. So you're achieving all these successes slowly and steadily, so it becomes a very positive experience very quickly for people. Given that, going back to the initial question of where do I start? You have to pay attention to it. You have to look at it. You have to see where your self-sabotage is actually occurring and how it's occurring, because you need to understand it. If you're going to fight anything and change anything, you need to look at it and understand it. You can't ignore it. And so yes, there is attention paid to it, but through the process of paying attention and starting to address it, there's so much more positivity that comes out of it that it reinforces that process and makes you want to continue to do it.

So yes, I agree there's that focus on a behavior that is negative, but it's for positive purposes and positive outcomes that hopefully outweigh that attention.

Anita Brick: So one of my questions is if you don't know where to start, where do you start?

Candice Seti: So digging into what self-sabotage is, I drill it down very simply to say it's standing in your own way. It's preventing yourself from achieving the things you want to achieve. And so if you're not sure what it is or how you do it or what it looks like, you can start by simply looking at what you want, right? Do I want to move forward in my career? Do I want to become an expert in this area? What is it that I want? And then at once you understand that you can say, what behaviors am I engaging in that are moving me towards that, and what behaviors am I engaging in that are moving me away from that?

If you can start to look at that and say, okay, well, objectively speaking, I could be doing X, Y, and Z to achieve that, and I'm not doing any of those things. So why is that? Am I talking myself out of that? Am I convincing myself that that's not worthwhile? Am I procrastinating on doing that? Am I assuming the outcome of that behavior and therefore not bothering to engage? Am I overthinking on it? By understanding what you want and what would essentially objectively lead you there, you can start looking at your own behavior to say, am I doing that? Or am I not doing that?

Anita Brick: Okay, there's another MBA student and she said: “I'm an avoider, which is one of the types you talk about. And I think that maybe I could apply other types of saboteurs to my list. How do you advise someone to take actions so they don't freak themselves out?” So I want to avoid all of it. And if you say I have to do this much, how do you start in a way that doesn't, as she put it, doesn't freak you out?

Candice Seti: That's a really good question, because the avoider is a self-sabotage style that they keep themselves away or out of any situation that pushes them outside of their comfort zone. They don't expose themselves to change. They don't try new things. They don't put themselves in new situations. If that's a form of self-sabotage, clearly combating that self-sabotage is about putting yourself in those situations. But as this person said, that can easily freak you out.

The process is based on something called systematic desensitization, where you're very gradually exposing yourself to situations and starting with the absolute least scary thing imaginable. If you could take somebody who's an avoider, let's say, in social situations, and they could identify maybe 10 or 15 social situations that they typically would avoid, they can then create a hierarchy of how scary those situations are and start with the one that's the least scary going over to a friend's house when they have two other people over. Generally I would avoid that, but it's not going to freak me out to the point where I couldn't possibly put myself in that situation. They would start with the least scary freak out situation, expose themselves to that until they felt more comfortable in that place, to then start moving up that hierarchy slowly and creating comfort levels so that you can keep building on that.

Anita Brick: So a lot of people are afraid to make presentations. And if you're an entrepreneur with an idea, you are going to have to make a presentation to funders, to strategic advisors, to a whole bunch of different people. Would it be the same as saying, all right, I am going to present this to my two best friends, or to my parents, or to my grandparents, or to my mentor as a starting point, rather than going in and making this presentation for the first time to the top venture capitalists in your field.

Candice Seti: Exactly. And then after you've done it to friends and people you know well, maybe you move on to people you don't know as well, and maybe you ask your friend if they have a friend you've never met that you could give it to just so you can give it to a stranger so you can have that experience, because that seems a little more scary than giving it to a friend or family member.

Again, slowly build up your tolerance, your comfort level, until you're at a place where you feel like, okay, I can do this. And it doesn't mean you have to get to the place where you are the most confident public speaker in the world, and just has to get to a place where it doesn't freak you out, to the point where it will stop you from engaging in the behavior.

Anita Brick: This is an alum this time. And the alum said: “I've been networking for a long time, and I have a whole body of evidence about how this doesn't really work very well for me. I suspect you would call me an assumer. Where would you advise someone like me to start breaking that pattern so I don't set up the relationships the same way again?”

Candice Seti: You know, given the fact that this person is saying they're probably an assumer. With an assumer or somebody who just assumes the outcome essentially predicts the future. For starters, do you have evidence that networking doesn't work for you? There is actual evidence saying, I've gone to 500 networking events and gotten zero out of them. Okay, maybe that's not assuming. Maybe networking doesn't work for you and that may be the case. It may not be because then you have to look at am I networking when I'm networking? Right? Networking is not just being in a networking environment, it's about communication. It's about connection. It's about body language. It's about, you know, the way that you present yourself. If you're an assumer and you think networking doesn't work for you, and maybe you go to a networking event, you might hang in the corner, you might just talk to the people you know. You might not push yourself out of the comfort zone and talk to the people who may be able to open doors for you or present yourself in a strong light, or show yourself as confident. Really looking at the evidence. If you can say, okay, maybe I'm not doing this well, is it a confidence issue? Is it a self-talk issue?

Do you find your better in different forums? The type of networking forums that you've been in, are they not really your strong suit? Maybe you're better one on one than in a group environment or vice versa. When you're looking at any self-fulfilling prophecy based sabotaging behavior, you need to look at the evidence instead of having it be just thoughts and ideas. What evidence supports this idea? What evidence refutes this idea and based on that, how can I move myself forward?

Anita Brick: I would agree and I think it's the same thing that happens when it is one on one, which I think most of the Booth students are probably more concerned with that. I advise people if you're going to be calling individuals or contacting them, I kind of like to sandwich an easy person with maybe a harder person back with an easy person, because then you get some positive traction, you feel good, and then the harder one doesn't seem quite so hard. And being able to mix it up.

But yeah, some people are just better one on one and some people are better in groups. But it depends also how transactional things are. If they're transactional, I don't think they ever work, really.

Candice Seti: You're right on with that.

Anita Brick: So here’s someone who's now labeled his boss. And he said: “I work for a control freak, which again is one of the other categories. And we're in the midst of a pivotal time in the company. I know we need to change and so does the team. Even the leader knows this, but can't let go and let the team create the opportunity for growth and advancement. What can someone like me, not the leader, do to move us forward? By the way, I don't want to leave the company. I actually really believe in what we're doing.”

Candice Seti: Oh well, that's really an interesting one because it speaks to, you know, not only the importance of understanding how you self-sabotage, but understanding other people's self-sabotage styles. The control freak is the type of person that essentially never wants to be caught off guard, or they want to be prepared for every situation. And so they use their controlling as a way to be prepared and so they're never caught off guard. So they tend to avoid situations where they're less likely to have control. And that's how that behavior sort of developed. It's self-protective. So when you're working with somebody like that, one, it's very baby-step oriented. And two, anything that gets presented or addressed needs to do so in a way that allows this person to still feel not necessarily in control, but not caught off guard. Not surprised.

An example of saying, you know, hey, we're going to do this tomorrow is catching this person off guard. But hey, here's an idea and then let's bring this idea up again in a few days and talk about ways to implement that. And then again, let's bring this up two days later and talk about a timeline, and then have them factor into that timeline and build some of their accountability into it, because they're part of it. Now that this person is not caught off guard, this person feels prepared. And when you're talking about control freaks, that's the issue for them is they don't want to be unprepared. They don't want to be caught off guard because they always need to protect themselves. So if you understand that as the root cause of their behavior, then you need to work with them in a way that addresses that.

So it's not that this person can't change, can't move forward, can't allow other people to do things, it's just that they need to be prepared. You know, when somebody is working for somebody like that, it may be about allowing them to feel in control through the process. It may be about presenting an idea in a way that allows them to have control over the implementation of it, so it doesn't feel like it's being ripped away from them. But really understanding their style and presenting accordingly is the key.

Anita Brick: And remembering that they're the leader too.

Candice Seti: Of course, yeah. I mean, you know, and this person said, I think he said at the end of that, that the person really is invested in what they're doing and really cares about the cause. I would make an assumption that that leader does, too, and there's a way for them to connect over that. Really connect over their mutual investment and their mutual cause more than just the transaction.

Anita Brick: Okay. This is an interesting question, shifting a little bit. An alum said: “I work in an environment where we challenge each other. The leader calls the culture critical fun. I think I've learned this too well and tend to actually be comfortable with self-criticism. How do I break the habit so that it's not comfortable, so that I don't just take what feels almost like bullying?”

Candice Seti: Wow. You know, I loved the first half of that, the idea of critical fun. And I actually would focus on that for a second because the word fun is in there. The second half of that sounded like self attack. That didn't have a fun component to it anymore. When you talk about self-criticism is a very different thing than being goal oriented or focusing on self-improvement and moving yourself forward. Self-criticism is attack. It's beating yourself up. Again, over-emphasizing the negative and maybe where you've done wrong or not succeeded, and minimizing attention to the positive. Breaking out of that mold is kind of forcing yourself to do the opposite, focusing on what you're doing well and putting emphasis on that. And you would use this example just a moment ago with a different question about networking and sandwiching positives and negatives.

If you're going to focus on things that you haven't done well. For starters, let's sandwich that between things you have done well, and let's take the thing you haven't done well. And instead of having it be self-attack or self-criticism, let's look at that as an opportunity to make a self-improvement plan. A goal to say this is something I want to improve on and then really focus on how you're improving in that area. So that becomes a positive. In that work environment where they said the boss is talking about critical fun, I would have this person look at how is his or her self-criticism not fun? And how could she make it fit more of that critical fun component where it's really about, I'm assuming, self-growth and self-awareness as opposed to self-attack. And that could be a fine line.

Anita Brick: Well, it's true, and it depends in part what you're used to. If criticism is an attack, it's very easy to feel that it is being perpetuated, even if it's not. I mean, if the University of Chicago faculty challenged themselves, I mean, I think we all do, right? We all challenge ourselves. But it's not punitive. It's just let's get to something better. And that orientation, it actually helps me a lot.

Candice Seti: Yeah. So there's a big difference between saying, I don't know a lot in that particular area, and I'd love to grow my skills and awareness. I'm going to create a study plan for myself to learn about that and really grow and build my knowledge. Or saying, I'm such an idiot, I can't believe I don't know that, I'm so stupid, everybody else knows that. What's wrong with me? And beating yourself up for that knowledge, as opposed to saying that's an opportunity for me to grow. And one of them, as you mentioned, is very punitive. And the reality is it's actually very unmotivating. It sets people up to not want to move forward. When you focus on the negative, it does not make you want to accomplish the positive. It actually keeps you stuck in that negative cycle, and it tends to make people unwilling to move forward. So looking at it in that different light, that's not punitive, but simply about self-growth. And self-improvement and propelling yourself forward is an important mental shift to make this a useful tool for yourself.

Anita Brick: I agree, and it was a related question, and I know you talk about it. A lot of people talk about imposter syndrome, and this MBA student said: “Hi, Candace, does one begin to dismantle the imposter syndrome? I have big goals and I want to be able to own both strengths and talents as well as areas of development. And I'm not doing it very well just yet” – which is sort of funny that the person said that, but fine. And then there was a thank you.

But yeah, imposter syndrome. Clearly it can become self-perpetuating. And after a while, if we tell those stories, the people around us start believing the negative rather than what we're capable of. Where do you even begin to dismantle that?”

Candice Seti: You know, imposter syndrome is about this fear of being found out as a fraud. You know, being found out to be not who you're presenting yourself to be. So, like we talked about with one of these other questions, for me, dealing with imposter syndrome is always about falling back on reality. On facts and data as much as you possibly can. Right? This person said something about wanting to be able to own what they're bringing to the table. Their skills, their abilities, their strengths. I would say fall back on that for real. What is great about you? What have you accomplished? What are your strengths and capabilities? Where are you particularly skilled? What are you capable of?

Rooting yourself in the truth, the facts and data, is the ultimate weapon against imposter syndrome. For that person to be able to say, I'm this, I've accomplished this. I'm really smart in this area. I'm really capable with this. I'm really good at this, and I need to develop in these areas. I need to grow in these areas. I need to learn more in these areas. I need to be exposed to these situations. Now that person is not an imposter. That person is somebody who has a lot of strengths and capabilities and is simply building on them in certain areas. It ties in closely to the power and confidence in the ability to say, I don't know. And, you know, we talk about this a lot. The idea of, you know, when you're asked a question, when you're struggling with imposter syndrome, the idea is that if you were to say, I don't know the answer, that's scary, because now somebody may find you out. But the ability to say, I don't know the answer to that, actually, let me do some research on that and find out, is a really powerful and confident tool.

It's actually the exact opposite of what we fear it to be, because we fear it to be rooted in imposter syndrome. We never say it, and instead we fudge our way along and come up with fake answers. And that's what looks uncomfortable and doesn't look real. But if you were to say, that's a wonderful question, I actually don't know, I'd love to find out and I'm going to dig into that and I'll let you know. There's a lot of strength and confidence that comes from an answer like that. And that's rooted in owning who you are and owning your own strengths, your own talent, your own personal self-concept, and really believing in who you are regardless of what you still need to know and where you still need to grow.

Anita Brick: I think that also opens the door for other people to be the same.

Candice Seti: Yeah, it's leading by example. I mean when you see somebody really embrace it, it creates a safe space for you to do that.

Anita Brick: Yeah, I agree. So here's an interesting question from an alum. And she said: “I've really worked hard on neutralizing and transforming the things that creep up for me in terms of self-sabotage. In this last year since the pandemic, I kind of, you know, had a big backslide. What do you advise people to do to buffer and to reinforce the positive things there when you're tired, when you're frustrated, you're disappointed, you're pulled in multiple directions. What do you do to buffer and strengthen the progress that's already been made?”

Candice Seti: Well, you know, this person started out by saying that they had historically done a really good job there. And I would say that's where I would start. What have you done? What has been successful for you? Even if you've taken steps back, even if there's been some backsliding, if you can say, this is what I've done, you can always go back and do it.

There is muscle memory there, and this is not uncommon, by the way. I've heard this a lot this year. People have made great strides in certain areas, and the last year they've backslid because maybe they haven't been interacting with people as much or they haven't had as many, you know, business interactions or whatever it may be. They've been removed from it. They haven't had to focus on it as much. So as a result, they feel like they've lost their gains, they've lost their skills. But if you know what those gains were in the first place, then you can go back and refocus on them and re-implement them, and they will come back infinitely faster than they did the first time around. Because again, you have that memory. Your body, your brain, your mind, it remembers what you've done and it will embrace it again. I would start by saying, what have you done? How have you done that in the past? Because you have that to fall back on.

Anita Brick: Here's a related question. And I would say it's not just from the last year. It's maybe several years. The question is: “Hi, Candace. You talk about cognitive distortion, and I appreciate how well you've clearly laid all this out. Here's my question. There is so much disinformation in the world. How do you advise someone, an individual like myself, to diminish the impact of a plethora of influences?” That's a big question, Candace, isn't it?

Candice Seti: Yeah, that's a good question. You know, I talked, you know, with a lot of these other questions about how I encourage people to fall back on facts and data. I encourage that in all areas of life with internet-based information, I always encourage people to find the source, find the research, find the data. The same goes with our thought patterns, with our cognitive distortions. Cognitive distortions are almost never based on facts. They're based on assumptions and massively skewing data. They're irrational by nature. When people are looking at that, I always encourage them to fall back on what they know to be true. If you're somebody that dwells on the negative, which is a cognitive distortion, how can you shift your thinking to focus on the truth of both the positive and the negative? Because it's not about saying there's no negative out there. It's not about being irrational on the other side of things. It's about being focused on reality. And the reality is in most situations there is positive and negative. And if you're somebody that dwells on the negative, you only see that. So how can you focus yourself on both and find the truth, the reality, the facts, the data, the evidence that actually supports it?

If you're somebody who is an all or nothing thinker, which is another cognitive distortion and think in black and white terms, how can you find the gray? How can you question that? If you're saying it's either this or this, can you then look at it and say, well, wait, what might fall between that and find the reality of what actually exists there?

If you are an assumer again, also a cognitive distortion, can you find the data that supports or refutes your assumption, because you're probably purposely only focusing on data that supports that assumption? Is there also data or evidence that refutes it? So again, I always encourage people to fall back on evidence, on reality, on facts and data, because so much of this is rooted in thinking errors, cognitive distortions that are not even remotely reality based and are based on irrational thinking. So the more we can bring it back to rational thought and things that support that, the stronger we can get in changing those behaviors.

Anita Brick: I like that in something that you said about seeing the truth, and as if you want to say, well, you know, truth is dependent upon where you sit. But one of the things that someone will say, well, I don't want to inflate my capabilities, whether it's in a story or a resume or bio, whatever it happens to be. I actually do something that you said and I said, well, do you like to be accurate? And they're like, yeah, I want to be accurate. It's important to be accurate. I said, well, isn't it important to include both your strengths and the things to have both sides to give an accurate, you know, description that is not inflated, but it's also not discounted.

And they're like, yeah, that kind of makes sense. And in the midst of it, especially in the midst of a very stressful time, it's easier to go to whatever is your comfortable area. And if it's to inflate, people tend to do that. And if it's tend to discount, people tend to do that too. I like what you're saying. Even if you have some data that supports one side, go see what you can find on the other side to just make sure that you have a bit more balance.

Candice Seti: Yeah. And you can get that data from other people as well, right? It doesn't need to live in your head. I mean, when you talk about, you know, I don't want to inflate it. And maybe that's I don't want to inflate my sense of self. I don't want to inflate away. You can ask other people, what are my strengths? What are my weaknesses? What have you noticed about my capabilities in this area? You can get that data from somebody else to support your change.

Anita Brick: Good point, good point. So here's a question I found this an interesting question because I love questions. And so this question is about questions: “How do you advise your clients to learn to ask the types of questions that move them away from self-sabotage and toward a healthier, more productive, and happier life?”

Candice Seti: Good question. To me, that fundamental question is what do I want? And some people kind of get stuck on that, and maybe they don't even know the answer to that. So if you can answer that question, what do I want? Then there's a slew of questions that come from that. What will help move me towards that? What am I doing that's standing in my way of moving towards that, right. All of that can help guide that. But if you can't answer that question, you can look at an even simpler level and say, does this bring me joy? Does this make me happy? Am I feeling fulfilled? Am I feeling content in what I'm doing, where I am, this situation, this behavior, this interaction, whatever it may be? And if not, okay, why am I doing it and what am I getting out of it?

If it's not joy, if it's not happiness, if it's not contentment, what am I getting out of it? Am I getting reinforcement of a negative behavior? Am I getting comfort? Am I getting avoidance? Am I getting safety? Am I getting protection? What am I getting out of that behavior that's making me do it? Because if we're not getting joy or happiness out of our behavior, then we need to look at why we are doing it. All of that type of questioning can help lead you to more understanding of your self-sabotaging behaviors, to start challenging them so, you know, looking at what you want. But if not looking at what you're doing and what it's bringing to you, if it's great stuff, wonderful. If it's not, then why are you engaging in that behavior? What are you getting out of it? Instead of that great stuff?

Anita Brick: That can be a very tricky question. That's a very self confrontational question in a way, because some people are like, well, I'm not getting anything out of it. You know, you hear that? Well, this isn't working so well, you know, what are you getting out of it? Well, nothing. It's only negative. We're always getting something out of a behavior.

Candice Seti: Yeah, exactly. Yeah, exactly. And even if it is negative, okay. What is that negative? And then why are you doing it? Why are you continuing to do it? Because we can get things out of those negative things too. That's still something, right? It may be fostering our fear of success by keeping us stuck and not having to approach it.

Anita Brick: Do you see this with people getting attention? It doesn't have to be positive attention if really what they want is attention, and they've never had that other type of positive attention.

Candice Seti: Yeah. I mean, you see it in childhood behavior all the time in child development and parenting education, kids don't care what kind of attention they're getting. If they want attention, they'll find a way to get it. It may very well be through acting out because they're not getting attention any other way, but they'll take it. Attention is attention. Focus on me is focus on me.

Anita Brick: You're absolutely right. Speaking of time and attention, do you have time for one more question?

Candice Seti: Of course, for sure.

Anita Brick: Okay, good. So we've talked about a lot of things. Self-sabotage. It takes time. You need to have awareness. And there are many things that we've talked about. But if we were going to crystallize those into, let's just say three actions that someone could start taking today, what would those three actions be? For someone who wanted to positively transform self-sabotage into a healthier way of living professionally and maybe personally too?

Candice Seti: Yeah. Well probably both, because I'm sure they all tie in. Number one, you have to pay attention to it. If you're self-sabotaging and I'm sure you are because we all are–to fight it and to make change you need to know it. Self-sabotage, it's habitual right. It's habit-based behavior. What causes me to do this? What situations does this come up most frequently, and how does this happen? And understanding that in order to understand how to change it. So you need to pay attention to it. And I actually encourage people to start tracking it, to write it down anytime they have a self-sabotaging thought come up in their head like, don't do this or you'll never succeed, or it's not worth it, or, you know, an assumption or anything like that. Write it down. Start tracking it so that you can see where these things come up most frequently. That frequency on that repetition is where you need to pay attention, because that's where it really comes at you.

And then you can put an action plan in place. If you were to say, I always do X in this situation and I don't want to, then you can say, okay, what can I do to combat that? Like we talked about with some of these other situations, it probably has to be in baby-step format. It probably has to be in a way where you're not pushing yourself too far outside of your comfort zone, too quickly. So maybe you're saying, okay, I'm just going to do the small thing once a week and start to feel really good about that and acknowledge it and pat myself on the back for it so that it becomes a positive and then I can add on to that and slowly, steadily building instead of saying, I have to change everything 100% right now, as opposed to gradually allowing myself to build comfort in these new places.

Because like I mentioned, self-sabotage is habit, which means we are comfortable there. So any change you make is pushing you out of a comfort zone, and we need to move slowly and acclimate into that new space. That new space can become our comfort zone, and then we continue to move from there. It's a slow and steady process, but, you know, slow and steady is what wins the race.

The third thing would be once you have successfully achieved X goal is building on to it. Add on a second thing and build a comfort area in that space, and then add on the third area, because it can be overwhelming to take all this on at once. So it is a process. So that's not a third thing that can be a 10th thing. Even, you know, depending on how many things you have to do. But it's one at a time instead of all at once. The idea is to build in success and confidence and capability and add on as opposed to being overwhelmed and feeling like a failure because you're not able to achieve all that.

Anita Brick: Oh, I agree. Some people will say, well, Anita, that's just too slow. I very much disagree that when you build these habits based on the small actions, it can actually get you where you want faster than if you take on something way too big. And then you stop and then you take some more time and you try it again and you stop. It just seems that this approach is how humans operate, and it actually can move us ahead more quickly.

Candice Seti: Yeah. Let me just change this one thing. Let me focus on this one particular thing and build success, confidence and capability in that area and then add on.

Anita Brick: Thank you so much. There's a lot to your book. I love the fact that it is in workbook format. So you give a lot of content that is based in research and facts, right? And then you give people opportunities on their own to experiment. And I like that a lot, as you say, that we all do self-sabotage in different ways. And if we're moving in a positive direction and you're helping us, that's really important work. So please keep doing it.

Candice Seti: Oh, thank you for having me on and for chatting with me. This is great.

Anita Brick: Well, thank you. And thank you all for listening. This is Anita Brick with CareerCast at Chicago Booth. Keep advancing.