Simple is the New Smart

Anita Brick: Hi, this is Anita Brick, and welcome to CareerCast at Chicago Booth. To help you advance in your career. Today we're delighted to be speaking with Rob Fazio. He is the managing partner at On Point Advising, specializing in global leadership and organizational success with executive teams. He has shared his practical and strategic insights at Forbes Index News, CEO magazine and more.

He earned a PhD in Counseling Psychology and is the founder and president of a September 11th inspired nonprofit organization called The Door for others, to empower people to grow through loss in adversity and achieve their goals and dreams. Rob's book, which we're going to talk about today, is a great book, by the way, Rob, Simple As The New Smart features success strategies he gleaned from over a decade and a half of working with athletes, executives, and people driven toward excellence. Rob, thanks again for making the time. I know you're really busy, guy.

Rob Fazio: No, it's a pleasure to talk with you. I'm excited to be with you today.

Anita Brick: Well, let's jump in and an evening student asks, how can a person take a shortcut, which sometimes cuts corners and makes it a smart cut?

Rob Fazio: The biggest differentiator in I think is the actual intention. So a shortcut is actually when you're being lazy. So you're trying to take the easy way out and you're just trying to cut off time. A smart cut is more strategic. You're being intentional and calculated. An example of that might be let's say you have a number of interviews. A shortcut is just googling tough interview questions or doing something like that. A smart cut is working backwards and figuring out what are the two of these things that are really important for that job role, and hedging your bets and over focusing on those factors.

Anita Brick: I was actually doing a mock interview just before this call. I went directly to the job hosting and crafted questions for the alarm based on the job posting.

Rob Fazio: Yeah, exactly. Everyone hates the standard question that anyone can read. And do they want to see something a little bit different about you that's personal or makes them say, oh, that was an interesting conversation.

Anita Brick: It makes sense. An alarm had a question which I thought was an interesting one and not an uncommon one. She said, I work in an organization where goals are often not well defined and focused, which seems to be a rare commodity. What can I do as a team member to encourage more golf focused behavior?

Rob Fazio: I get this a lot where there's a lack of clarity or it isn't. Let's say a quote unquote performance culture. The best thing you can do is first start with doing that yourself. So setting effective process oriented goals, which are goals that walk you along how you're going to get somewhere. And they're very specific. The other part is having some conversations with the people that you think are most resistant to setting goals and just getting understanding from their perspective about why that might be, and trying to build the case for at least trying to do that a little bit.

So let's say if right now there's zero goal setting going on, can we up that to 10% of the time or once a week? We set goals in relation to that, to try to influence people, to see the rewards of goal setting and then trying to build on that momentum. And at the end of the day, if all you can do is be the person who sets goals, well, then that could actually be a good thing too, because you're going to be the one that's getting more success and that's going to get noticed.

Anita Brick: That’s a good point. A follow on question to that. If you approach someone to find out why they're not setting goals, how do you do that in a way that makes them feel comfortable and open rather than making them defensive?

Rob Fazio: Defensiveness always comes from there's an element of resistance, or someone is feeling insecure or like they're attacking them. So the whole idea is to frame conversations in a way that I'm interested in us both being successful. I have a couple ideas and points of view that I'd like to talk through, and I also would like to hear your perspectives, making it about something outside of me and you, and making about success factors and talking about the goals, the way to get people to be receptive to that.

The relationship capital is the number one factor in a lot of these things that we talk about, whether they're tough conversations or feedback. So the better relationship you have with people, the more leeway you have to have these discussions. I do very little or none. If I can quote unquote tricking people, I'm often very candid and honest and say, I'm not really sure the best way to approach this, but I do want to talk about something that I think will be beneficial for both of us.

Anita Brick: I like that the whole idea of relationship capital is so crucial, because I would say it's often the difference between success and failure. There were a few questions around this and really about what gets in the way of that. One person said, I like to be open minded and I find this really hard when I don't respect the person who holds a point of view different from my own. Well, I'm only human. I don't want this challenge to hold me back. Thank you in advance for your thoughts. That's a really good one. If you don't respect the other person, it's easy not to respect or even listen to what they have to say. How do you pass that?

Rob Fazio: It is a good question and it's a common dilemma people face, especially people that are high achievers and that are smart and intelligent. And what happens is people get stuck in their own point of view, as well as get stuck on the other person, as opposed to the point of view. The key is not to focus on the other person, and one way to do that is think of someone you respect. And if that point of view came from that person that you respect, where the conversation goes from there.

Anita Brick: Oh that's brilliant Rob. That's great. Yeah. We can get so focused and then we lose support.

Rob Fazio: Right. And it's a, you know, a human nature thing where emotion is so sticky and we build these narratives. Likability is so important. This likability is just as important. In other words, being aware of when you dislike someone and I'm always surprised at how much we lose because people shut other people down just because of a difference in style or they don't like that person. There's so much left on the table.

Anita Brick: There was a question from an MBA student, and it sounds like there may be a little bit of a disconnect, he said. Unfortunately, you talk about promoters in your book, he said. Unfortunately, I don't have any promoters. I need to advance. How do I convince people to be my promoters?

Rob Fazio: The subtle nuance in that question is it's not about convincing, it's about earning and inviting and it's about taking steps where you're promoting others first. So you're creating that cycle. That's the first thing. The second thing I would say is doing somewhat of a stakeholder analysis of who are the people that I would want to be my promoters and figuring out what's really important to them.

I talk a lot about this idea of motivational currency. So is it performance, people, power or purpose? What really drives those people? How do I speak the same language as them? What wins do they need and can I help them get tickets? It needs to be a more indirect type of thing as opposed to asking people, be promoters or trying to get them that way?

Anita Brick: I know you talk about a constellation of competence, so instead of having a promoter or an advocate, you have an array of people and an almni. I think it's a related question, he said. You talk about having a constellation of competence. I think it's a great idea. That said, how would you advise someone to actually get individuals to agree to be part of your quote unquote team? Is it what you said in terms of promoters, or is there another nuance, given that you're not looking for one, you're looking for an array of people.

Rob Fazio: You definitely want diversification. You want people in that constellation of competence that are candidates that are credible and that also are competent. You want to kind of have whatever your factors are for people giving advice. A misstep I often see is people get advice from people that they're comfortable with. That's a big mistake. Then you're just getting advice from people that are going to tell you what you want to hear and you need to get different points of view, and it can be either informal or formal.

I happen to think that the informal getting constellation of competence is better where it happens naturally. Maybe you're playing roles in each other's ambitions and you're giving advice and support, and it kind of organically happens naturally. It can work when you directly ask, but I do think that people get mentor fatigue. They're successful people. They've done a lot, and so many people are asking, it's almost better to be chosen in that kind of constellation of competence than to ask to be in it.

Anita Brick: What would you say is one of the biggest factors in getting chosen? Because people say, well, I know who I want my mentor to be, but how do I get them to choose me when either? Like you said, a lot of people want to talk to them. A lot of people want their advice and it could be just too much. But how do you stand out in a way that makes you easy to help?

Rob Fazio: Number one, I would say, is initiative. They need to see that you're taking initiative. I've always observed that people are much more willing to help people that want to help themselves. You can have some ass and things that you want, but you also need to bring something to the table. So if you're known as someone that takes initiatives and takes on things, I think that's helpful.

The other aspect of that is someone that gets their work done at a high level. It's much easier to support people and give people advice that are adding value to the organization, as opposed to just doing their job and completing tasks. And then someone that is a leader. And what I mean by that, it doesn't have to be someone who's charismatic or outspoken, but a leader in that they're demonstrating behaviors aligned with the values of the organization and direction the organization wants to go.

Anita Brick: Got it. So those things are all externally focused, like, how can I get others to help me? And so on. The next grouping seems very self-aware. The people who submitted the questions and they were all about how do I make changes? Next one is sort of a hybrid of the two weekend students, and I need to change how I am perceived from a tech guy, who did a lot of coding to strategist. How would you suggest I craft messaging, story, resonate, etc. when most of my career has been pure tech?

Rob Fazio: Right? The first thing is this word strategic and strategy gets thrown around all the time. Like a person needs to be strategic or procedure figuring out what exactly that means behaviorally. Does that mean I talk about things ahead of time that mean I do cost benefit analysis? What does strategic mean for that person's perspective and what do they want? So you work back from there. You go into what behaviors you think demonstrate that you're strategic or like this person has a tech background. You don't hide the tech background or try to shy away from it. You leverage it to talk about examples and stories of when you've been strategic, and how your tech background has helped you. Be strategic.

That helps. And then also finding what I would say are sweet spot things that you enjoy doing that are valuable to a business and you're good at, and then thinking about how to bridge that story to you. Being a strategic partner that encapsulates those three areas.

Anita Brick: Well, I agree, technology and strategy are not even distant cousins. In order for technology to be fully utilized and to add value, both economic and otherwise, it needs to be used strategically. I feel like he has the basis of it, and I think your points are well taken. Focus on the things where he provides the most value and that he actually likes to do.

Rob Fazio: You hit on the most critical point thus far in our conversation, which is talking about the internal stuff. A lot of people have internalized messages or created a narrative and they get stuck in trying to prove something, whereas they may not be perceived that way. So when you overemphasize that, oftentimes it can end up hurting you. It's more talking about your spikes and trying to use language that's associated with strategy. In other words, making sure that you're not being a barrier to the brand or narrative that you want.

Anita Brick: This next question kind of goes along with it. This is from an executive MBA student, and he said, I don't think of myself as stubborn, but more of being tenacious. How can I have the upside of wanting to always win while minimizing the downside?

Rob Fazio: Right. The answer to that is, number one, you're never always going to win, even if you think that you're always winning, period. That just doesn't happen when you always win. People try to find ways so you can lose to this person. Although it may be a tough message, it's about making sure that they're balancing their ambitions with the desire for other people to be successful and leaving some room for others. So yes, being tenacious is important and you have to have a balance there and realize that you will win more if you help other people win along the way.

Anita Brick: Well, I agree and it was funny. I took it when I was getting my MBA, but I took, not that long ago a negotiation class at boost and I wanted to win. I wanted to win at all costs and we actually did win. But the economic value that we created in that negotiation was not as high as another team.

Rob Fazio: Absolutely. Well, so we know, you know, we've known this a long time in working with hedge funds or traders where the mindset is pretty simple. Either the winner wins or loses. It's all about trying to get people to keep their edge but not cutting people. And I've been doing a little bit of research around influence and power, and one of my favorite questions to ask is when you're on a plane, what is the highest probability of you being willing to share or give up the armrest to the person next to you?

71% of the people were willing to give up the armrest when the other person either leaves it open or offers it to them. So that whole idea of finding that mutual and common ground and keeping your drive and natural instinct to win at all costs, and the idea of bringing others along and not just always thinking like I've got a win gives both parties benefit. And I think to your point around the financial aspect of over time, you see more financial success when the collective is leveraged.

Anita Brick: Agreed. This is kind of one near and dear to my heart, and I think a lot of people that I know work with the idea of getting rid of doubt. So this alum said getting rid of doubt is a nice aspiration, but I think it's actually unrealistic, if not impossible. Any advice on how to do this is greatly appreciated. Thanks, Robert,

Rob Fazio: I completely agree with this person. I don't think that you can get rid of doubt. I think you can be aware of it, and I think that you can do things that help you make the doubt, not control you as much. Desensitizing the doubt, being aware of what doubts I have, how they impact me, and then having some things where you're able to redirect your thinking to the doubt doesn't have as much power.

So the more aware they are, the less power they have over us. You mentioned in the beginning that I didn't work in sports psychology with athletes. One of the biggest things around that was I'd say, okay, red light, yellow light, green light. Let's take a diver before they walk to the stairs and the diving board. They can have all the doubts they want, all the things they're worried about. When they start walking up the steps, they can have some contemplation. But the moment they step on the diving board, all doubt is eliminated. And it's one word of focus. Whatever that word is, go focus there. Doubt just gets eliminated once the performance starts.

Anita Brick: How do you avoid letting it creep in? I understand athletes are trained to do this, but how do we as common mortals here eliminate the doubt? Because sometimes we get up to that diving board and we're about to jump off, and that doubt just insinuates itself back into us and we're like, oh no, now what do I do?

Rob Fazio: Right? It takes a lot of practice. So literally doing two things. One is getting really good at doing some imagery and imagining situations, anchoring your keyword. That takes over because the mind can't do two things at once. You can't have doubt if you have confidence at the same moment. If the doubt is creeping in, you may have to.

For the metaphor of walking up the steps as you're doing there, slow down. Take a deep breath. It's 100% or nothing. Let's take a different type of performance. Let's say you are in a board meeting or, you know, a meeting with colleagues, which is a longer period of time and the doubt starts to creep in. Well, then you have a process where you take a deep breath, you reset, and then you say your keyword and you get back on track and in a meeting or something like that, it's a little bit easier, because one strategy I use is where I tell people in a meeting, just have an index card with you and have written down three things that remind you of when you've been your most confident.

Just have that to glance over to help you to reset. Also, being aware of things that tend to diminish your confidence or create doubt might even be a certain person. Conversations are really interesting because some people can nail a conversation with one group of people and totally flub with another just because of how they perceive someone else, what they're demanding or overpowering, or what have you.

Anita Brick: How do you decide what that keyword is? How do you find a word that feels comfortable? Or do you just experiment a little bit?

Rob Fazio: So what you do is you think of an experience where you have had complete and total confidence. You are in the zone or in the flow, and things went really well and it was a successful experience. And then you take as many senses as possible. So see, feel, think, act, smelling. You describe all the things that you were experiencing in that high confidence moment.

Jot down bullet points, go through that. Just keep writing. Keep writing what that was. Read through that again, and at the end of it you say, okay, what's the one word that best describes what it was like being in this experience?

Anita Brick: That's good, I like that, and you can always change it over time if it doesn't fit anymore. Right.

Rob Fazio: You could. Ideally, what you want to do is make a commitment to it. So that's why it's so important to get it right, because what we're trying to do is rewire our brain somewhat. It's called anchoring. Basically what happens is once we 100% commit and say, okay, my keyword or it could be 1 or 2 words if I got this.

That's your keywords. You practice that script time and time again saying to myself, I got this. I feel confident, I know I can do this, and you're anchoring your feelings and creating new neural pathways to that phrase. So ideally you want to make sure you've got it right and you commit to it. So you can't go back to contemplating the decisions already made.

Anita Brick: That's sometimes hard to do, but I think it's worth a shot at it because the more you use it and the more it works, I think the more you use it and the more it works.

Rob Fazio: Exactly. These things that we're talking about around performance, they take a lot of discipline. The biggest key factor is you have to believe they're going to work. That's number one. When I was initially in the sports psychology program, I was kind of like, come on, this stuff, you know, imagery, soft statements, all this until I applied it to myself and saw me having less doubt and more confidence. Then I was like, wow, this is really impactful and works.

Anita Brick: Full disclosure. I mean, it's really your disclosure, but full disclosure, having read the book, you weren't always this way. I mean, you had some challenges beginning as a child in terms of believing in your own intelligence, your own power, your own self efficacy.

Rob Fazio: I would take it a step further. I think the book is basically like all the things I struggle with and then learned how to give expertise. So, for example, I was a complete worrywart and very insecure about traditional intelligence or being afraid to have conversations with people. And I just got to a point where I said, I no longer want that.

So I try to become an expert in each of the areas I really struggled in. It's amazing what can happen when you take that insecurity and you flip it on its head, and then you actually become an expert in that area. So yeah, I had a lot of times throughout when I was younger and then in undergrad, and I would internalize a lot of messages. I got. People weren't doing this intentionally, but basically the message I got was, you don't have the type of smart it takes to get a doctorate. Try to pick something else. Of course, me being Sicilian, that's just two of my fire and maybe like a doctorate.

Anita Brick: And I'm glad that you didn't believe them.

Rob Fazio: I think sometimes it is other people's insecurities kind of place. Sometimes people are just trying to be realistic and there are some things that are uncomfortable, but that ability to be resourceful and find a way, I think is incredible. And this has served me well. And that whole idea of having that, that strength to not let it beat you down. Now everyone's going to get bummed out and they're going to have, you know, misses every miss has to be more fuel for your fire. If you really want something.

Anita Brick: I agree.

Rob Fazio: I think that's something where people struggle getting, which is if you want to be successful, you've got to sacrifice. You've got to make sacrifices, put it into consulting firms and things like that. If you want to leapfrog, sometimes you have to give up billing and your utilization rate has to go down because you're focusing on learning something new or business development. So I've been through that process where you might be getting pressure from your manager, but you make the decision, I'm going to do what I need to do, but I also have to be in parallel focus on this, because that's what's going to leapfrog my success.

Anita Brick: It's hard. I mean, I think it's hard and it can be overwhelming. In fact, there was an exact MBA student who talked about the whole finding insecurities as a way of or as a past, like you said, to build increased confidence, he said. I like the idea of increasing my confidence, yet not so much about finding my insecurities, which I believe could overwhelm me. Where could I start while decreasing my overall risk?

Rob Fazio: The truth is, your insecurities are there and if you don't find them, people will find them for you and you'll be worse off. So it does take an element of courage to take out a piece of paper and just think through those things. The key is you don't want to get blindsided, and you don't want your insecurities controlling you.

They will manifest and they will grow over time. You don't want to reinforce that. And I totally understand that. That can be a little bit nerve wracking to be like, oh my gosh, I got to think about all my insecurities. I don't want to make this worse. So it might be tough at first, but over time you'll get control of those and taking some action towards addressing your insecurities one at a time will be much more beneficial to you in the long term.

Anita Brick: How do you reduce the risk of having some things in place?

Rob Fazio: Kind of call it my confidence crawl where I'm like, I know no matter what. So I've done some negotiating with big investment banks when I first went out on my own, and that insecurity pops in like, gosh, do I belong? And having a seat at that table, having some things where you're diversified in that not all my eggs are in this basket.

For even if I fail this, I know I'm going to be successful. And knowing what things kind of inspire you and energize you and also give you that confidence, having some trusted colleagues or friends where you say, hey, listen, this is something that I struggle with, I want to talk through you with it. And having that support system, I think is really important as well as in parallel, taking on some things that are really easy to get some small wins on, you're kind of offsetting and mitigating some of the risk by doing those other things.

Anita Brick: I totally agree, every time you have a win, you were talking about the neural pathways. Well, you get a rush of endorphins, dopamine, serotonin, oxytocin, among other things that neuro biologically motivate you to go at it again.

Rob Fazio: Right, absolutely. And, you know, while it's not novel, it's so key to have people around you that believe in you. As you mentioned early on when I had struggles in the challenges, I had people around me that believed a lot more than I did. So when I had doubts. And you build those relationships by, like you're saying, relationship capital, but also supporting other people and seeing where other people might have insecurities and helping up their game is really beneficial.

Anita Brick: Great. Do you have time for a couple more questions?

Rob Fazio: Absolutely.

Anita Brick: Okay, I know this is the very beginning of your book. I love this and I was glad to see that there are questions around it. So we can say in your book you talk about one of your mentors wanting you to, quote, find the confidence to match your abilities. I love that, I think that's awesome, the student said, I struggle with this. What is your advice on how to elevate that confidence to match my abilities?

Rob Fazio: Yeah, first of all, unless you're a narcissist, we all struggle with confidence from time to time, day to day. It's always going to ebb and flow and the key is building a foundation of confidence so it doesn't get too low. It's a combination of mindset and skill set. So having an attitude similar to a lot of Carol Dweck work and David Rocks work, the way you look at situations, you think of it as an opportunity.

When you really feel challenged, you say to yourself, okay, here's a chance to test how well I can rebound. And the skill set part is constantly learning new skills and new strategies. I do a lot of simple things like I'll just go on, you know, YouTube or Ted talks and put in something that I'm interested in learning about, like the blockchain and doing things that help you build up skill sets over time.

I mentioned this before becoming an expert on confidence can really go a long way, so learning about all the things that can build confidence, being careful of what messages you internalize because the majority of them are false, and we just caught on to them early on in life. So being realized with that inner dialog and what you're saying the self is, and having some sort of success statement or mantra of what success is to you, that helps you gain confidence because you're moving towards something you're want, as opposed to just getting pushed towards something that you may not want.

Anita Brick: Excellent point. I was chatting with someone yesterday and he was saying something has changed in his job and he just has to get out of there. And I paused and I said, how can you run toward what you want to do rather than run away from what you don't like, where you are right now? And he paused and he said, well, that's completely different.

Yeah, it is kind of different. He said, I'm terrified of leaving like I have to leave. And so it's based on fear. But going to something I want is based on excitement. I love that he was so insightful about that.

Rob Fazio: Yes. Right. That's a great question and a great example too, of when we have, as you said, fear or we feel like we're stuck, our minds are in strategic and sometimes it just takes another sounding board or person to help you talk through things objectively, because emotion is so powerful and it locks us into one direction and we kind of get this idea of permanence, oh, it's A or B, but that's just not true.

Anita Brick: It's good. He's given us a lot of good things to think about and a lot of very, very practical things. But I think profound advice. What are three things that you would advise someone who wants to create sustainable success while honoring one's values?

Rob Fazio: The first thing is the awareness piece, which is knowing what your core values are and really, really limiting to a top three so you can prioritize. Reason being is it's hard to make decisions when we're not really focused on our main values. Prioritizing some of your values is important. Realizing that motivation needs to be about your self ambition, as well as making other people successful.

So when you're making decisions or you're trying to achieve something, what's my ambition and how did this also benefit others that propels you up the pipeline quicker and then honoring the values of other people, even if they're different, right? So having appreciation for other people's values, be smarter than that. Be able to integrate different types of thought and leverage that.

One thing I always talk about is that the success pie is big enough for all of us. So my definition of success is how many people I help help themselves. Having your own definition of success and making sure that other people are part of that has proven to work well for me and others.

Anita Brick: I love that route. It's great. And thank you. It Is very courageous that you took your own challenges and created the 26 strategies that you have in simple as a new smart, because most people would hide that and the fact that you celebrated it and celebrated your ability to rebound, to come back and create something of value for all of us is very admirable. And thank you for doing that.

Rob Fazio: I appreciate that, and that was one of my things, is I don't give advice. And so I have tried it myself. You know, it works.

Anita Brick: I think that's a good idea. I think it's a really good idea. I know that you have lots of things on the web. As I mentioned at the very beginning, you have this nonprofit at Hold the door.com, and I think there is a lot of really, really good information there, among other places, that people can find you. But I think that's a really good one and very much appreciate the time that you gave us today. I can already sense that you will be changing lives as they listen to your strategies and insights.

Rob Fazio: Thank you. It's very kind of me and I'm glad our paths crossed and I look forward to a lot of your alumni and current students leveraging a couple tidbits about our conversation and putting it into practice.

Anita Brick: Me too. Me too. Thanks again. Rob.

Rob Fazio: All right. Thank you.

Anita Brick: Thank you all for listening. This is Anita Brick with CareerCast at Chicago Booth. Keep advancing.