Expand Your Success with Reciprocal Relationships

Anita Brick: Hi, this is Anita Brick, and welcome to CareerCast at Chicago Booth to help you advance in your career. Today we're delighted to be meeting with Melissa Giovagnoli, president of Networlding, which is an incredible organization. And we're talking about expanding your success through reciprocal relationships.

Melissa has been doing this for eons, and I know last year you actually helped us, through one of our alums, through Phil Dillard, do a networking, or networlding program for students when they prepared for their student-to-student networking event.

So thank you. You seem to cross so many different venues. You seem to connect with people who have very different backgrounds. And yet your message of reciprocal relationships seems to permeate most people's lives.

Melissa Giovagnoli: Thank you. Yes. And as I said, it's taken years. I've been in business for 22 years. And it's interesting that now, just in the last couple of years, there's a name that everyone knows: social networking. So they know what I do; before, they didn’t. So it's an interesting time.

Anita Brick: Well, I know when you wrote the book, this is like almost 10 years ago now, right?

Melissa Giovagnoli: Yeah, it's almost 10 years. It will be 10 years next June.

Anita Brick: And I know you wrote it with a Booth alum.

Melissa Giovagnoli: Yes. Jocelyn Carter-Miller, who was the first chief marketing officer of Motorola and went on to become the CMO of Office Depot. And now, from what I understand, is growing charter schools around the country. Which is really wonderful.

Anita Brick: So we know we need to build relationships. We know that it is essential for our health and well-being, for our careers. Where do you start?

Melissa Giovagnoli: It's always the question, and everybody has it in their minds and some fear in their hearts. The truth is, more than 60 percent of the world is shy. And interestingly, I sat on the Women's Business Graduate Advisory Board for years here at the University of Chicago, and what I found was they made me feel good. They told me, you're needed.

However, there are people who really don't see that there's a need because they're naturals. But for all of you who are not naturals, or all of you who want to learn, I think the best way to begin ... It's just like the fear of public speaking. If you think about going up there and revealing yourself, that's fearful. However, if you think about going out and helping others, it's less fearful.

One of the reasons that I'm out there—and I am more of a shyer type—is that I thought of my life very strongly for a long time, asking myself the question, what would my life look like if I didn't engage with others? If I didn't connect? I always had this vision of my life, like Thoreau and Emerson, looking at how they connected and how they talked to each other and that friendship.

And I thought, I'm going to lose out if I don't connect. So I moved to that place of, I can help others and I'm going to do it. And I have many techniques I'll share with you during this time that have helped me and hopefully will help you.

Anita Brick: OK, so one of the students, a full-time student, said, or asked, how could I bring and really build strong relationships with people in my network who have much more experience or more friends or mentors than I do? They have a lot more to offer. I don't have very much to offer. What can I do for them?

Melissa Giovagnoli: Great. I'm going to go ahead and give you a twofold answer. Part one. If you think about Gladwell's The Tipping Point—now interestingly, The Tipping Point came out two years after Networlding. Gladwell laid quite a foundation. And by the way, just so you know, if you checked it on Amazon, that ranking is still higher for The Tipping Point than it is for his other subsequent books.

Anita Brick: Wow.

Melissa Giovagnoli: He calls people salespeople, mavens, or connectors. So let's think about those terms. He's really sharing what is a value. It doesn't matter if you're 20, in your 20s or early 30s, whatever, or even if you don't have a lot of connections when you begin and awaken to this, being a connector means that anyone you meet—so you meet somebody who is that mentor and person of influence.

The chances that that person knows, or is going to know, a lot of other people that you meet is actually rather slim. Even though it's a small world and Gladwell even uses the law of the few, it still will be the case that you will meet someone of value, and by being that connector, you will be of great value.

And think about it: you only need one connection. So with that in mind, you are truly a value and it's important for you to understand that when you're talking to someone and you meet with them, the setup is not that you are going to offer them something immediately. What you say is, if it were me and I'm in my 20s and I'm talking to you, Anita and I would go, Anita, I'm just starting out.

But what I will do is be on the lookout for people that I can introduce you to. What would those people look like? What would be their backgrounds? What would be of value to you? The fact that you offer that, you're immediately moving into that space of reciprocity.

Anita Brick: That's a really good point.

Melissa Giovagnoli: Yes. So that's what you do. The second part of it is when you find out what they want and you're there, you really want to find out also, if you could wave a magic wand and meet anyone, who would it be? Strangely, when people are asked that question and you mention someone, it's very amazing how I've met up with people that they've wanted to meet.

The other piece is people who do develop reciprocal relationships will ask, what can I do for you? There are a couple things that you can say. Then that's another opportunity for you to build your network. One is to ask if you could have a couple of mentoring sessions with them over breakfast, and you're happy to buy them breakfast or coffee.

You know, think of something that you can afford, whatever stage you are in your career. The other thing that you can ask, which is also great—for instance, I train a lot in banking. And the bankers, you know, they'll be talking to somebody who already has a lot of great peer relationships. What you want to ask them is, Anita, who in the bank—let's say I'm talking to a top banker. Is there someone in the bank that you admire that's moving up? That is maybe my age or a little bit older, who hasn't built a network yet that you would recommend that I would network with, where we could be helping support each other?

Anita Brick: Great idea, great idea. All right. So that's somebody at the beginning.

Melissa Giovagnoli: Yes.

Anita Brick: There were two people who had slightly different takes on this. So this is an Executive MBA student and this is a long question. So bear with me. The reason I'm so bad at creating sustainable, mutually beneficial associations is that in order to do so, I have to create and nurture a relationship only, or mostly, on the basis of what I can get out of it, and I simply am not able to do that.

Moreover, mutually beneficial to me, and that's in quotes, often means people will help each other regardless of merit or results. And again, I'm unable to do that either. I really think of networking as unethical, and people who approach me for the sole purpose of including me in their network as unpleasant. However, I do realize that this is a huge limitation for my career.

What should I do?

Melissa Giovagnoli: And it's funny because you sent me the questions ahead of time. This is the number one question that kept me up at night.

This person is incredibly torn. You have to take a side, if you will. When you get networking and you understand that it can be reciprocal and that it can have an impact, if you will, for the greater good, which is what networlding is all about, and see it bigger than yourself.

Anita Brick: Give me an example.

Melissa Giovagnoli: Yes I will, I just met with a wonderful guy. His name is Craig Sieben. Craig is right down the street, right around the corner, and he is coming out with a movie on sustainable energy. He has figured out a way. When Al Gore came out with his movie, this new movie, and it got funded, which is amazing….

This new movie is on the solutions. Gore brought up the warning signs and it all of a sudden turned into this huge green movement. Craig has been working for 20 years, and Craig is all about finding solutions for problems that, of course, we're all facing. He ended up having someone who's, I think, maybe 15 years younger than himself coming to him, saying, I want to turn what you're doing into a movie.

And they went—and my understanding is, I think they got the Pritzkers and the Crowns, and they raised over $650,000, and they took it to the Sundance Film Festival. And this is moving forward. And it is very exciting. That all came from a relationship where you've got this young man now who's getting his opportunity. He created a foundation from this.

It's called Earth School. And Craig is benefiting because Craig's on the speaking circuit. And then we talked about also working this out with whatever happens and giving portions back into the foundation. The communities benefit from this education. So everyone's benefiting from these connections.

Anita Brick: So it sounds like when you have that first interaction, if you can be really open-minded as to what it can become.

Melissa Giovagnoli: Exactly.

Anita Brick: I saw the article that you just wrote, “The Three Pillars of Effective Social Networking.” You have to really decide if there's going to be value that's exchanged. Because if I'm only there to take from you …. First of all, it's totally fine for you to stop giving.

Melissa Giovagnoli: Right.

Anita Brick: And secondly, it's the exchange that ripples out to create more value beyond just the two people who are having the conversation.

Melissa Giovagnoli: Right, and sustainable value. If there's no reason why—there's so many people who go through job searches, and the only time they contact you is when they're in search of a job—that's not a sustainable relationship. Because the first time, you know, shame on you. But the second time, shame on me that I helped you. And that's what's happening with the advent of LinkedIn.

I've been on it since it started and, you know, one of the top trainers on it. And what I find is I help about five to 10 executives a week. I work with six-figure jobs. That represents 5 percent of the 8 percent of six-figure income earners. And I hear the same stories all the time. And if you, for this person, if she or he doesn't get this, you just continually lose out.

If you get this, you continue to grow. What you have to be is at the epicenter and make it, as you said, an opportunity. Expansive. Be in a space of faith. Understand that there's something that will come from it. In Networlding, I think one of the best things that we, Jocelyn and I, created and developed were what we call the seven levels of support.

It's not just about giving people leads and referrals. We happen to live in the information age. We happen to also be continuously evolving in the age of knowledge, which is experience and information we happen to be continuously trying to reap. And that's why this school is here in the first place. The age of wisdom; to reap wisdom. The 20 percent that can yield an 80 percent return.

Those are the things that people pay for. And that's how you grow your career and you become successful.

Anita Brick: So it sounds like what he may need to do is a little experimenting. Because sometimes we don't always connect with people who think like we do, who want to create value. And you still have to be a good consumer and use those critical analysis skills, the …

Melissa Giovagnoli: … the discernment, and I think you had a question, I'm going to lead it because you brought it up beforehand. How do you handle someone if they are takers? In Networlding, we talk about givers, takers, and exchangers. I was giving a talk for the Oak Brook Chamber, the keynote at their annual conference, and I shared everything that I'm sharing with you now.

It ended up that afterwards—and I had mentioned, at that time, Jocelyn, I think, was at Office Depot—someone walked up to me. And all the people that walked up before this man, a young man, would say, you know, thank you. I liked what you said. And they were gracious, and they might have asked for some ideas. It was great. There was an exchange.

This young man came up to me and he said, I want Jocelyn's phone number. And I said, no, you're not going to be getting Jocelyn's phone number.

Didn't you listen to what I said? Yeah, I just want her phone number. And he basically felt that it, I guess, or it was stated, you know, I want it, I want, I want it. And I just said, no, no, no, sorry. There's a time to just be very truthful. I was firm, I was kind, I just said, no, sorry, that's not going to happen, and it doesn't work that way.

But if somebody does do that, really look at your word. Do not say that you're going to do something unless you're at least going to try to do it. You will find people who will do that, and do forgive them. You know, people will go back and say, I'm going to give you so-and-so. I'm going to connect you with them, and then they don't.

And one of the things I'll say is, if somebody says that to me, great, can I contact you on Monday? I'll send you an email just to remind you. But if they don't just move on, what you will find is it's better to let go and move on. And in Networlding, we talk about the science of networks—the idea that you'd want to form what we call a primary circle.

And we talk about focusing on 10 people. Ask yourself, who are your 10? And continuously look for those people. I want to give you some resources that I think would be helpful. There are a couple of groups on LinkedIn specifically that I think are great. Besides the alumni group here, one of the groups is Winning Workplaces. I've been an advocate of them for years.

I know they've spoken here, and they talk about the leaders in the top smaller businesses that are out there. So this way you can meet people that you can put in your network. Another one is Leaders and Leader.org. Lots of leaders in that group. Great group. Of course, there would be people here who might want to join the green group, which has over 60,000 members.

Take a look even on LinkedIn. And if you're looking for people who really appreciate reciprocal relationships, type even in keywords, when you click on people, collaboration. or leaders.

Anita Brick: Well, it sounds like you need to find genuine affinities. Rather than fake affinities. Well, I'm going to pretend that I'm interested in this because I know you are, and I really want to get something. So it sounds like with this person, if he feels like someone is being a taker, he or she can say no and do it very graciously.

Melissa Giovagnoli: Yes.

Anita Brick: Now on the other hand, we had another question that sort of fell in on the other side, and someone said, I feel that I really need a job and everyone knows this. When I reach out for a quote unquote networking call, how do I get to the real reason for the call rather than just pretending I want information?

Melissa Giovagnoli: So in this case, is the person indeed looking for a job?

Anita Brick: Yeah.

Melissa Giovagnoli: OK. And what I would do is—and there is no reason why you can't, when you think “exchange”—that's why I like LinkedIn a lot. You can do a lot of research. You can go to the company pages. You can actually see the people who have more connections.

What I say is look for people with 50 or more connections, people who have given recommendations, people who have received recommendations. Read those recommendations, understand who that person is. That way, you're entering the workplace. That opportunity through somebody who could be a champion. They're already showing the behavior of a good networker or a network. When you ask, be truthful, you know, say, I am looking for a position.

I'd really appreciate the opportunity for a 10- to 15-minute informational interview. And then it's so easy to say, and what can I do for you now? The reason that people are on LinkedIn, growing by one person a second, by one million people every 22 days, with the average age being 42 to 45, is because they've raised their hand and they're saying, I'm networking.

Look down to the bottom of the page where it says how to contact them, and you will indeed see people, surprisingly, like at IBM, there's a recruiter who just says, anyone who has any questions, call me, and she puts down her phone number. So when it's staring you straight in the face, don't question it. Try it. You may have difficulty at times, but trust me when I tell you there's never been a time where you can find people who will help you today.

Anita Brick: So it sounds like with this person specifically, you can't just go to anyone and say, I'm looking for a job.

Melissa Giovagnoli: Well, I don't think it's a good idea. I think it’s much better to be strategic.

Anita Brick: Yeah, totally. I totally agree with you. But things like LinkedIn can show you who is going to be most receptive and how you can prepare. So that you're doing your job too.

Melissa Giovagnoli: Absolutely. And you keep improving what I'm saying. So keep going.

Anita Brick: So since we're talking about LinkedIn, there are a couple of questions about LinkedIn. Someone said, I've read so much about social networks. I have a profile on LinkedIn, but I'm not sure how to make the most of it. What should I do?

Melissa Giovagnoli: You just fed that right into my lap.

Anita Brick: Every once in a while.

Melissa Giovagnoli: Yeah, yeah. You're definitely going to have to get a colleague of mine on. He’s just finishing a book, something like Write Your Profile on LinkedIn Like a Rock Star. He's done a very thorough job. We are publishing the book. By the way, I have to bring it up—it’s a sidebar—that I've created an initiative, and they're taking it on, called Leadership 2029, for young leaders between the ages of 20 to 29, helping them get smart starts in life, through mentoring and coaching that's subsidized, you know, as low as $10 an hour.

Mike O'Neil's coming out with this book, I think it would be very good. You can even look up Mike O'Neil online now, and they have examples on his profile of the best LinkedIn profiles. They had a contest. That's a good model. And of course I'd like to say that I have a good model profile too, because I'm always fixing it and I'm on LinkedIn so often, so you can look me up and type in under the company name, Networlding, because to try to spell Giovagnoli is still hard.

Anita Brick: OK, well there you go. You know, it's interesting because this person is actually a seasoned alum. And it's just different.

Melissa Giovagnoli: It is different. And everybody—what you find; one finds; what I found—people who are really good, who are top successes, they always want to improve. They always want to learn and grow. That's one of the aspects or the attitudes that they have and the beliefs that they have.

Anita Brick: True. It's a good point. Another alum asked a question about LinkedIn, too, that I find LinkedIn more effective in linking with new connections than maintaining old ones. My experience is that those newly established links are more responsive than old ones.

Melissa Giovagnoli: Yes.

Anita Brick: Do you think that there is some reason for this? If there's an underlying reason? If I have not been an active member on LinkedIn, what should I do to create a more active status, especially to the older connections, because I want to create these sustainable relationships?

Melissa Giovagnoli: Yes. And the science of networks. And you can go over to Ron Burt here at your school and talk to him about this. There's a phenomenon, or a theory, called the Law of Weak Ties. It is very fascinating that it's the weaker ties that you can connect with. And one of the reasons, I would say—or theories that I have—is that there's no history.

So you actually start from a fascinating space of connection. Make new friends, but keep the old. Your question—this person's question—is about keeping the old. I think it requires the personal touch. All the social networking sites are doing this. I mean, it's Twitter. Ask, if you will, what am I doing? And change that status bar a couple times a week.

Also now it's turning into a Facebook like page where it's a wall. So it's where you can write on that wall and comment on your other old colleagues that are active. Or we're going to see on LinkedIn now, because I also now consider myself a social media futurist.

Anita Brick: OK, there you go.

Melissa Giovagnoli: Looking at it going, what's coming up in the future? What I would say is do different points of connection. Call them on the phone. If you get a chance, be the person to lead a circle in conversation. You know, an alumni group, a get-together of some kind at a dinner table. What's funny is, and I'm sure you've seen it, Anita, people talk about LinkedIn in social settings, and, you know, it could be the weekend.

I met a bunch of people from CDW at a picnic, and then we connected online. And so, you know, wherever you go and travel, everything's converging. Things are melding. Social is converging with business. So not to get everybody frazzled; take a deep breath and understand that it's evolutionary. You know, you could make it revolutionary. And being fed by a firehose.

But pace yourself with it. And my recommendation? Strangely, I find that a lot of people are online on Saturdays and you can get a lot done on Saturday mornings, with connecting. So think about that.

Anita Brick: Good point. So with this new online—it's not so new anymore—online world. One of the questions was how often should I reconnect with online relationships where, you know, you go into LinkedIn and some people have 500, a thousand connections, how often do you reconnect with those online connects?

Melissa Giovagnoli: Well, again, remember I said that what LinkedIn—and LinkedIn, by the way, I've flown out, I've met with them, I presented to the group. They keep humanizing it. Every three weeks they add another feature. It gets better and better. I mean, to me, I'm like a kid in a candy store. What I would say is stay with it, watch it, understand how powerful it is, and use the “What am I doing?”

Because that will go out to your group. Ask and answer questions that will connect you to other thought leaders, because if there's anything people from this school are thought leaders. So engage with other thought leaders. Another really neat thing is when you get into groups, offer advice. Best thing you can do? Create a series of questions. Questions draw people in. The opportunity that we have today is engagement. You can have the best answers to questions. You can ask provocative questions. And I know, Anita, you love questions.

Anita Brick: Oh yeah, I do. So I have a follow-on for you on this topic. So that's good in aggregate. So I go out ... But how often should I connect—this person is asking how often should I connect to specific individuals? On a one-to-one basis?

Melissa Giovagnoli: A one-to-one basis. That's a good question. Especially when you get up in numbers. You know, for me, I have my own group. I have a network group online. Anyone can join automatically. So that's cool. Either think about forming a group because anyone could form a group, right? That's a good way to grow your leadership. Anyway, the other thing is I would look at some keywords, things that matter to you, things that would be interesting and maybe just even each week, connect with a certain number, you know, look at what they've been doing, who's most active, and just reach out and say hello.

I like to recommend connecting on holidays that most people don't connect on. Most people connect around Christmas and then you're barraged. Connect on Thanksgiving. I just want to tell you, I'm thankful for you. What's happening? And I'll switch to Facebook for a moment. Facebook has 120 million people. People are using that as its own infrastructure.

What I would say is that you have the opportunity, certainly on Facebook, because it is so connective and social—that might be a good opportunity to go and connect there. Rule of thumb in networking. Best networking you can do is to start your own group. So I'll go back to that too.

Anita Brick: That sounds good. One person said—actually, an EMBA student asked, I'm very good at connecting with someone for the first time. I'm not so good at connecting with someone the second time. What can I do to improve that?

Melissa Giovagnoli: I think you need to have a plan in place, you know, so you can get over that problem, if you will, of that second connection. Another idea here is don't ever have a first meeting without setting up the second one. Let's have you take …

Anita Brick: How do I do that?

Melissa Giovagnoli: Well, you know, here, I'm holding my iPhone. Hey, Anita, can we …

Anita Brick: How do I get you to give me that time? Because that’s tough.

Melissa Giovagnoli: Because that's what—you're talking, you have the first time and then say, you know, let's make a point of having a follow-up meeting, even if it's for 10 minutes over the phone, so we can give each other feedback loops. So let's think about things that we can be doing for each other. The thing that creates reciprocity is me actually doing something for you.

So there's a feedback loop. And then by asking, what can I do for you, Anita? You can offer, here's something I'd appreciate if you do for me and and start, you know, the seven levels of support. I'm just going to go through them very quickly. There's emotional support. They connect with you because—it's Daniel Goleman's emotional intelligence. They are—there's a level of connection, points of commonality that you have. The reason that you're connecting. We talked about that earlier.

Then there's information: finding out what matters to them. Everyone is busy. So getting people information they might not have readily is good. One of the things you can do to that end, I set up Google Alerts, and it really helps. And I can set the alerts up so I get news just at the end of the week on certain subjects.

That way you keep up as a subject matter expert and they just send you one email with the highlights. And if you want to click on the articles, you can.

Anita Brick: And you can forward them.

Melissa Giovagnoli: Yeah, you can forward them. Very easy, easy way to add tremendous value. And the next level is experience. You know, offering your support. I had this experience; sharing it and asking for experiences. And of course all this also will tie into people, which will give you the opportunity to do what LinkedIn has created, and Facebook. The leader referral from the past is now the new introduction.

Everything's about the introduction. Another level is promotional support. What should I be telling people about you right now? What are you doing that I can share? That's all word of mouth. And the statistic now is something like, you know, 70 percent of all business is done by word of mouth. It's the most effective form of marketing. Get good at word of mouth.

There's a wonderful group that happens to be in Chicago, WOMMA, Word of Mouth Marketing Association. They offer a free newsletter and it's fantastic.

Anita Brick: Does it apply if you're not an entrepreneur and you're … ?

Melissa Giovagnoli: It applies to anyone. It's so good. Lots of case studies.

Anita Brick: Well, good! Thank you for that referral.

Melissa Giovagnoli: It's an excellent tool. One of the best I've ever seen. SlideShare is also fantastic. I can go on SlideShare, I can look up topics, and I can learn something. I can collapse the time to learn something because they have pictures, of course, pictures and diagrams that are worth a thousand words. You're moving up and then you're looking at, as I mentioned, after promotional support before, wisdom support.

So you're asking specifically, what's the 20 percent that can yield an 80 percent return? And then from there, we say in Networlding, if you do all these things and you practice it, you get to transformational opportunities. Like what happened to Craig Sieben. And then at the very top, seventh level is when you get this right, pay it forward, mentor others, peer mentor, share it out there.

And you know me—with everything that I share, I've got all kinds of things on the side and tools for people to use. And my goal is to just—getting everybody more consciously networking more effectively.

Anita Brick: Well, you even have an e-book of networking tools on the site, right? That's cool. That's very cool. So someone also asked, they said they're really good at engaging and building strong, solid reciprocal relationships socially. And maybe you meet people socially that you want to engage on a professional level. How do you transfer them over, so to speak?

Melissa Giovagnoli: I think that's a very good question. It's fascinating what comes to mind for me. I'm going to mention someone who I think definitely you should be interviewing in the future. He's the chief diversity officer of Hewitt. His name is Andres Tapia. He's so much about understanding that social side and how it connects. And also, women especially have problems in this area.

There's a book out called Women Don't Ask. And I've coached a lot of women who've had trouble segueing from one side to the other because they feel that they're not being genuine. It really does take a little bit of time, a little bit of thoughtfulness to shift. You're not going to, like, turn this around overnight, but the opportunities are there to see both sides of the equation.

One of the things that I would say—a good way to help move yourself into another space, into a different type of belief on this, is to find someone who is a good networker and ask them if you can go to a networking event with them and ask them if they can introduce you, because you will get to a point where you'll start seeing and experiencing something different.

They move very fluidly from one side to another and they're very genuine. This is just who they are. They can move from one side to another. It is a powerful thing to do. And I was just invited to an event on diversity with diversity leaders, and they did it so smoothly. You know, it was an event where everybody was talking about the things that matter to them in life. The social side, the business side, the family. It all melded and it was fluid.

Anita Brick: But isn't that different? I mean, if I meet someone at a picnic, like you said … if I meet somebody at a picnic, and it's not a corporate picnic. It's just people in the backyard, barbecuing. And we have no business connection. I meet them socially. I meet them at a family event or something like that, or, or at the ballet or something completely different. Very social. How do you then bridge … I mean, one of the questions is, is it common? I think it's very common that people meet people and they want to …

Melissa Giovagnoli: They want to turn it into something else, another opportunity. Yeah.

Anita Brick: Do you take that one? It's really there's I mean, the ones you mentioned which were good, are really focused on hybrid. So a backyard barbecue, holiday party could be coming up. So how do you transfer—how do you bridge that gap?

Melissa Giovagnoli: Well, you know, there's a couple of things. One of the things that I do is put it in a different setting. Like if you meet Susan at an event, I would look at having a session with her. I think the most important part is ask her for an opportunity to have coffee, and set the setting around business. I'd like to talk to you more about what you're doing and what you're looking to accomplish in your career, and then just say, here's what I'm looking to accomplish.

It's a good way to start bridging it.

Anita Brick: So part of the conversation socially is to learn more about the whole person, right. So then you have that information when you have coffee because then I know that you are, I would say almost obsessed, but I'll say passionate about helping people connect to one another.

Melissa Giovagnoli: Absolutely.

Anita Brick: And if I meet you, I may have another conversation about something else. But if I learn that about you, and then I go into LinkedIn and learn a little more about you, then I can have a conversation that is informed and we can build a bridge.

Melissa Giovagnoli: Right. And you want to build the bridge from the other side first.

Anita Brick: OK. Tell me, what does that mean?

Melissa Giovagnoli: That's me asking you. You know, if I'm at an event and I find—they say, oh, there's Anita Brick over there, and she's involved with the University of Chicago. And say I'd never met you. I would want to go up and find out more on the social side about you. I wouldn't want to talk about business—I think that would be stepping into an area. I wouldn't do that.

I would talk to you about what mattered to you. If you brought up business, I'd go, wow, that's really great. I'd love to talk to you sometime further, because that intrigues me. And it would intrigue me because it would be connected. Then I would say, would it be OK with you if I contacted you? And maybe we sat down to have coffee and then I would meet with you, find out more about what matters to you in the workplace. That would be the focus.

And then if you didn't say anything to back to me—because there are people who just don't get it—you've at least had some information because they've talked about the workplace, and you can even ask them who else they admire, and you put those other people on your radar screen because they're not natural; the person you're talking to is not a natural networker. If they are, they're going to be exchanging with you.

Another good example—I won't mention which organization this was—it was a large accounting firm. I found out who the right person was that was involved in social media within the company. The one who was the early adopter, the one who was a champion.

Well, what always happens is starting to ask other people, then coming at it from different angles, kept leading back to this one person. I had three introductions to that key decision-maker. I knew so much about that account when I went in there. And then what did I do? I spent the whole hour listening to what mattered most to this individual and he said to me, this is really unusual.

And I said, what? He goes, usually people come in here and they try to sell me. That's push. They try to sell me on what they do. And then after an hour I go, oh, time's up. He said, you didn't. You just kept asking me about me. And now you know all the things that we need.

Anita Brick: That's how Networlding actually came about. Because when you met Jocelyn, at a UCWB group here at Booth, that was your first question to her. Like, what's something you haven't done that you want to do, right? And when she said, I want to write a book, you had already written, what, seven or something like that.

Melissa Giovagnoli: Yeah, that was my seventh one.

Anita Brick: And that became a collaboration. Which sort of is a good segue into—there are two questions that were from, I would say, people who—it sounded like they were entrepreneurial, and the first one is an alum; actually, they're both alums. The first alum said, how do you think about who to include in a collaborative group versus who's actually a competitor?

Melissa Giovagnoli: Yes. I thought that was another really good question.

Anita Brick: I'm usually naive and think of everyone as a potential collaborative group member. As an entrepreneur, is that a risk, and how should I manage it?

Melissa Giovagnoli: It's a really good question, and it's weighing on my mind now. You know, I chose to pick up, for example, this author who does LinkedIn training like I do, and I have people who work with me, as we do, who's coming out with the book on profiles. There are times in this networked world that it's better to partner up, and I felt we'd be more than the sum of our two parts, if you will.

If the other party in this case—and this other party is so talented, it would be silly not to think about how to collaborate with that person. And if that person is collaborative. It just so happens that Mike O'Neil, as I was mentioning before, he is collaborative, but …

Anita Brick: How did you know when you met him?

Melissa Giovagnoli: Well, you know it by the conversation.

Anita Brick: OK, so tell me. What does that conversation sound like?

Melissa Giovagnoli: So this is very revealing. When he called me, he said, I want to come in and do LinkedIn training in Chicago. And I said, this is my turf, you know.

Anita Brick: But that was very honest.

Melissa Giovagnoli: I was, and after 20 years in business and I've learned to be that way and I'll, you know, I'll say this whether it's because I'm a woman or whatever, I'm like, you're not coming in here. So he came and said, I want to come in town here. And I said, well, you could come here, but you're going to be up against me. And I've been here for years. He stepped back, and he started referring people here.

Anita Brick: Wow.

Melissa Giovagnoli: And through the years—and it's been three or four years—we've become very good friends. There's no question that people have to withstand the test of time. But if you invite people into collaboration and then do planning sessions to see what it would look like, that's good. But the other thing is you can see—one of my lines in Networlding is listen with your ears—watch them.

You'll see. You'll see if they're a player. You'll see how people talk about them. You'll see how people recommend them. You can see—some people on LinkedIn, their clients don't recommend them. Their friends do. There's something to be said for that.

Anita Brick: Interesting point. So the other question, from another entrepreneur—and I want to broaden it. His question—he does outsourcing, business outsourcing in the Philippines. His question is, how do I connect with Booth graduates who would like outsourcing? Well, that's one way to look at it. But let's broaden that question and say, if you are an entrepreneur and you have a business and you have a specific area, what's the best way to build those collaborative, reciprocal relationships so that he can more easily find people who are interested in outsourcing in the Philippines?

What are some things that you would recommend that he could start to do?

Melissa Giovagnoli: The best thing that anyone can do is ask a number of other people who they'd recommend and look for patterns. You're going to continually see leaders—you know, like that is the law of the field. They will shine. People will have heard of them. They will be out there because they're leading. Take your time. Do your due diligence.

You know that concept of “hire slow and fire fast”? I mean, in a network it's the same thing. Sadly, what we don't realize—it may be counterintuitive, but think of how many opportunities, how many partnerships fail, how many mergers fail. It's because you're trying to look at the opportunity first versus the people first. Any good VC knows they're looking at the management team.

It's always about the people. Look at people. You will see a lot out there, and as you said, Anita, it is amazing that you can find a lot about people online. You can definitely find any great partnerships now. Might they fail? Yes. But the opportunity to really get a broad perspective on anyone today is there. And so I would be taking the time.

Slow it down on this. You know, one colleague, Tom Hill, says you're the sum total of the 10 people you spend the most time with. Spend time thinking about people. You spend all this time getting an education about opportunities; spend a quarter, an eighth, a 10th of that time thinking about people and what you're looking for.

And in Networlding, the seven steps still apply. It starts with values just like Covey or Blanchard. Starts with values, starts with values. American Express found that with their leaders—I was called in to do networlding boot camps there because they found their top leaders—if they didn't network within the organization within three to six months, they left within an average year. And that was worth $1 million per employee.

What I would say is, this is your opportunity. This is your opportunity to really learn. Get into this because it will last your lifetime. And it's very, very useful to understand the science and then the art of networking.

Anita Brick: That’s true. And it sounds like this particular alum could also, as you said, learn from people who set up outsourcing in other parts of the world as it's evolving and building collaborative relationships, there may be even some mentoring relationships there.

Melissa Giovagnoli: Absolutely work form a group. You know, I haven't gone out and looked, but there's every kind of group on LinkedIn. Five or six years ago, there didn't used to be a viable HR group, and now it's the largest group on LinkedIn. I think 120,000 people. So it's huge. So one of the best things you can do is form your group or go into the groups and look at it.

It's amazing the activity in the groups. You may not think so when you first look at the groups, because you'll see lots of articles and nobody commenting, but stay with it. It's going to grow.

Anita Brick: You've said a lot. You've given us tons of information, which is really great. If you were starting today, and you were really starting this, or maybe you've been in the work world for 30 years and you just never did this, what are the first three things that that person should do today?

Melissa Giovagnoli: You know I've really ingrained it inside of me. Figure out what matters most, what really … where's your passion? Those are your values. And your values stay with you. Your values become your mission statement. Number one value for me is making a difference. That's why I'm sitting here taking the time to do it. In all the time—and I've given probably about 100 hours to the University of Chicago—and what it's given back to me is knowledge and great connections.

And I put that; I invested consciously. Invest your time in yourself. Figure out what matters most to you. Find other people with similar and complementary values. Ask first. This is step two of networlding. First is figure out your top four values and your value priorities. Then step two is figure out is there anyone else in your network currently that really has similar and complementary values?

If you can't find them, then you go to step three. Find up to 10 people you know. Start with just a couple. Ask people. Figure out who those great connections are and build that network. Start having exchanges. Because even if at the end of the year you only found a couple people, you only found a couple people. It's still good.

I found Jocelyn, you know, it ended up taking me into big projects at Motorola. Not that that was my intention ...

Anita Brick: Networlding really changed your life!

Anita Brick: It changed my life. It was opportunity expansive. And then—and I coauthored with other authors, too. I coauthored then a book with the chief knowledge officer of UBS. That changed my life. I met Larry Mohl, who Jocelyn introduced me to, who became the head of leadership for American Express. That changed my life. And we're still colleagues and friends, and we do business together. It will change your life when you start really thinking of the law of the few and picking your network out based on your values and having those reciprocal relationships.

Anita Brick: OK, final question. If you're afraid. I'm introverted …

Melissa Giovagnoli: Right. And I am, I mean, I'm very, very I, I really am shy.

Anita Brick: So yeah, I know I say that too. And nobody believes me.

Melissa Giovagnoli: Right. And I get it from you and you get it from me.

Anita Brick: I understand. So but let's say you are how you used to be. What's something you can do to make yourself more comfortable?

Melissa Giovagnoli: It's a really good point. If anyone called me and I didn't really know them and they invited me to an event, to come by myself would be the last thing I'd want to do. For you, don't go it alone. Like in this case, I'd want to know that, you know, if you called me and I knew you and I, or I helped you, I mentored you. I'd say, OK, well, I'll come for you, but can I sit with you? You know, introduce me.

Anita Brick: Tag teaming is a good ….

Melissa Giovagnoli: Tag teaming is huge. That's why it's the idea of forming your own group. Get yourself your own support circle. Don't go life alone. You know what I think is we've been given each other, and without which any of this is possible. So let us connect. Let us find those connections. And, you know, 6.4 billion or so people, you can find your power of 10 circle one person at a time. Go looking for them.

Anita Brick: And I think in Booth language, this whole process is not transactional. It's equity building.

Melissa Giovagnoli: Ooh, I like that. We call it relational. But I'll take the equity building any day.

Anita Brick: Melissa, thank you so much.

Melissa Giovagnoli: Terrific. Thank you.

Anita Brick: And Melissa mentioned her site, and I mentioned it at the beginning. It is Networlding.com. And I would check out the new article that you just wrote; it's really good. I looked at it today. It's the three pillars of effective social networking.

And thanks again, Melissa.

Melissa Giovagnoli: Thank you.

Anita Brick: And thank you all for listening. This is Anita Brick with CareerCast at Chicago Booth. Keep advancing.