Changing Careers - Meeting Your Bliss Halfway

Anita Brick: Hi, I’m Anita Brick. And welcome to CareerCast at Chicago Booth to help you advance in your career. Today we're delighted to be speaking with Martha Mangelsdorf, who is a business and career writer and former senior editor and writer for Inc. magazine. For four years, she wrote a monthly feature on the subject of our topic today of career change called “Transitions” for The Boston Globe, and she has a book coming out in June from Ten Speed Press, which is exactly on this topic called Strategies for Successful Career Change: Finding Your Very Best Next Work Life.

So, Martha, thank you. And I know that this is your passion: career change. You've done tons of research and tons of articles and things. Just out of curiosity, how did you come to find this as your passion? Because that was a big question. People want to know, how do you find your passion?

Martha Mangelsdorf: As with a lot of things, it evolved. I have been a business reporter for many years, and initially my passion was writing about self-employment. I worked for many years for Inc. magazine, and I was absolutely passionate about helping people learn better ways to manage and start small businesses, because I saw that as incredibly important in an era where people can no longer count on a large corporation to be stable employment forever.

But then Inc. was sold. I became self-employed in the middle of a deep, dark recession, and all around me I saw people making changes in their careers, including people making radical changes. And I realized that there wasn't very good information out there about how to do that. And so I transferred some of my skills from writing about how to start small businesses to telling people stories about how they make career changes and seeing the patterns and looking how that is done.

Anita Brick: There are a couple of questions that people had, and of course this is a great place to start. How do you start to determine? And I know part of our topic today is meeting your bliss halfway. But how do you even find your bliss to begin with?

Martha Mangelsdorf: OK, so first, meeting your bliss halfway. That came out of my research, which suggested that this whole idea of following your bliss is not necessarily a great one for people changing careers in mid-career. Let me expand on that a little bit. There's this kind of idea out there in the popular culture—I'm not sure exactly where it came from, although the phrase “follow your bliss” comes from Joseph Campbell, who wrote The Power of Myth.

But there's this idea that you can—very sophisticated people think it sometimes, which is that if you just do what you're most passionate about, you'll be successful in life. And my research with people who've actually changed careers suggests that that's not necessarily true. If you define success economically, what you really should be trying to do is figuring out the intersection between what you really like to do and what the market needs.

Anita Brick: Totally on board. I mean, you have to be practical. Some people have a hard time finding out where the passion is, so they don't even know where to start.

Martha Mangelsdorf: Right. OK. Where do you start? OK. Well, there's a number of different places you can start. A really good thing to start out with is to think about your goals in life. What do you really want to accomplish before you die? What are some of the things that matter to you to do in life? That helps in a very starting way to think about things that are important, and sometimes that can help clarify things for people, even if what they end up doing doesn't immediately clearly relate to those goals.

I had one example of a successful career changer, for example, who decided that when he was—he had a high-powered business job. He decided that when he was 55, he wanted to quit that job and do something more public service oriented. And he didn't know what that was, but he just knew that he wanted to do something while he still had time to start a second career.

And he wanted it to have a slightly different focus because he had a very successful business career. And the important factor was that he set the goal, because if you don't set the goals, you just say, someday I'm going to do something different. It's really hard to do that, particularly if you have a high-powered job, because high-powered jobs are very demanding. Setting a goal helps you make changes in your life over time.

Another person, an MBA, who I interviewed, changed careers dramatically. It came about as a result of a list of things that he wanted to do in his life, and one of them was traveling around the world, which he did. He took a leave of absence from his job to do that, and that changed his perspective and led him to make changes in his career.

So that's one way to think about it, is look at the really big picture. And another way to think about it is, again, I think this idea of there's one passion for you that really is the right thing for you to do—it's really not very helpful because it suggests that if you just sit alone long enough, thinking about what's important to you, that you will get to some one answer.

And my experience and research suggests that that's not the case. The process of interaction between you and the marketplace, right? It's more a matter of thinking of what are four or five or three things that you might be interested in, and how can you figure out ways to explore those more in a low-risk way? So this whole idea that there's one passion that's going to be the right thing for you is, it's not so helpful.

Anita Brick: Well, that's actually a really good point. What if you thought you knew what it was? One of the evening students was having a difficult time tapping into that, because he or she spent seven years doing one thing that seemed like it was the passion and the real interest, but it turned out to be not. How do you regroup and say, well, I need to trust myself; I maybe didn't make the right decision the first time. How do you encourage someone to try again?

Martha Mangelsdorf: That's a tough situation, and it does happen for people. There's a number of different ways. Either you get into something and it turns out not to be over the long haul what you want, or it was for a while and then it's not anymore. Or the industry changes when it's not … so there's a whole variety of ways in which you can get to that point.

First of all, the important thing to keep in mind is that in our contemporary culture, this happens to a huge number of people. The fact that you're going to have to reinvent yourself to some extent, or to a greater extent, depending on what you decide to do and what makes sense under the circumstances, is not something to feel bad about. Happens all the time. We live in a fast-changing economy.

The other thing is to think about it as a long-term process. Many of the people I talked to who made often very radical career changes—perhaps more than this person is thinking about—it's a long process, but it's a long process for most people, I think, in terms of creating a bridge to where you want to go.

For example, if you don't like the work you're doing right now and you have an idea about something else that you think you might like better, think about it as a long-term project. Is there a project in your current workplace that would bring you a little closer to that, that you could add on, that would allow you to experiment with whether or not you like using a different kind of skill set, and maybe acquire some more credentials in that area?

Can you make a schedule for yourself if you're still at your current job in a way that works for you, at a pace that works for you? Start having networking meetings, lunches, coffees with people you know who work in fields you might be interested in exploring. Is there a course you can take? Think about a bridge. How can you gradually explore fields that interest you? While not expecting an immediate answer and not expecting to make immediate changes if you're in a job that works for you but you don't like that much.

Anita Brick: You know, it's interesting. I've seen people do some volunteering just to test the water, and they'll go in and maybe be in a banking role and think about corporate finance in a company role and actually have that role in a nonprofit on a volunteer basis.

Martha Mangelsdorf: Yes, that's another great way to do it. Yep.

Anita Brick: So what if you're really disappointed—not disappointed in yourself that you misread or you didn't have a long enough term perspective, but that your bliss is what your job used to be. But your industry or your profession is gone. You loved what you did, but you can't do it anywhere.

Martha Mangelsdorf: I totally empathize with that because, like, I essentially went through that a little bit when Inc., the magazine where I worked for many years, was sold, because I defined myself by this idea that I love to write about helping people start and manage businesses. And it happens to so many people in our culture right now. There are probably some people who love working in the US automotive industry, or love being newspaper reporters or loving being investment bankers who are seeing their industries—they haven't gone away, but they're certainly contracting and opportunities are fewer.

So it's a big problem that happens in our culture because things change so fast. Really good thing to keep in mind is that if you've been happy in your work in the past, that's a really wonderful thing because you know what? That means there's a really good chance you can be happy in your work again.

Anita Brick: Oh, good point.

Martha Mangelsdorf: Because some people are naturally, you know, we've found that people who are never happy in their work, it's really true. A wonderful book that I'd recommend … I'd recommend my books, but another one that I would recommend for someone in that specific position is called Transitions by William Bridges. It talks about specifically the process of dealing with big life changes, including ones that involve loss.

And Bridges has this idea, which I think is so true, that big changes, that they begin with an ending. Some type of loss can be an ending, like the loss of a profession. And then there's this kind of period where you're sort of wandering in the wilderness, if you will. He calls it the neutral zone. And out of that period, when you really can't see the way forward, the seeds of a new beginning eventually come.

But at the moment it can be hard to feel it. The key thing is to know that that's the case. Something else will, if you work at it, come along. You'll identify something that you'll like again, but it may take some time. Hopefully, if the person's profession has already disappeared, hopefully they have some kind of financial cushion or spouse working that gives them a little time.

If not, they may need to do some kind of work that isn't ideal in order to keep bread on the table, but to keep trying to find low-risk ways to explore. For example, consulting. You know, MBAs have lots of skills that they could use in consulting projects that could allow them to develop new networks. Getting involved with industry associations can be a great way to meet different kinds of people.

Volunteering is also a really good way to explore new things, so try to be patient with yourself. Allow yourself to explore new directions and put yourself in situations where you can get more information about fields that might interest you. But recognize that if you've loved your work, it may take you a little while to figure out the next thing that you love, but you will.

Anita Brick: It's a good point, and I guess you could also just read job postings and see, wow, that sounds great.

Martha Mangelsdorf: Exactly.

Anita Brick: That doesn't sound good, and then a “well, possibly” pile.

Martha Mangelsdorf: Exactly.

Anita Brick: Career change right now—I mean, we know that almost every day I hear of people losing their job. Actually, I've also been hearing about people getting jobs. … There's a lot of risk and risk aversion in the market right now. Of the research that you've done, what do you think someone should really pay attention to before embarking on a career change to maybe mitigate some of that personal and professional risk?

Martha Mangelsdorf: That's a great question. Now, the first thing, though, is to keep in mind that for certain categories of people, it's a great time to change careers. And those are the folks who you've just been alluding to—folks who have either, they perhaps have been laid off, or they think their industry is in serious decline. If you're in an industry that's, you know, going through what looks like it'll be a long-term shrinking, it may be a great time to be thinking about career change.

Often there's, you know, buyout opportunities or such, something that could give you a transition period in which you can retool yourself. So that's the one caveat to that question for those folks, people who have been laid off or who are concerned about declines in their industries or organizations, it's a really good time to think about making changes.

But you're absolutely right that if you are in a reasonably stable job that you can tolerate or are OK with in a riskier time to make changes, ways to mitigate that risk are really to think long term. Most career changes don't happen overnight. So yes, we're in an economic downturn. That doesn't mean it's not a good time to be thinking ahead to what you may want to be doing in five years.

Again, some of these methods we've talked about—whether it's taking on projects that move you in the kind of direction within your organization that you eventually hope to go forward, things that you do in your volunteer work, which gives you new skills or ways to explore or networking—if there's an industry you think you're interested in, a great way to learn about it is, you know, reading the industry trade publications, going to industry events. Again, there are ways you can be planning ahead for a change.

Anita Brick: And look at the gaps and, like you said, fill them in this time that may be unstable.

Martha Mangelsdorf: Exactly. And in particular, the most important thing, always, if you're thinking about a career change, is to talk to people currently doing the work because they're the ones who can tell you exactly what skill sets you need and which ones you don't, which credentials are important, which ones aren't, and how to get from point A to point B.

Anita Brick: If you’ve seen this before, or you've been looking at a career change for a long time. Employers seem to be even more risk averse. I mean, how does an MBA student or alum position himself to go out and show employers that they are not risky, because employers seem to want perfection? How do you, as a career changer, mitigate an employer's risk?

Martha Mangelsdorf: That's a really good question. Also, I think, again, the secret is to plan ahead. By the time you get to applying for that job, you want to have some things that you can have on your resume that make you less risky. Those could be experiences you have in your current work. They could be coursework or some type of industry credential that you've done on the side. Or it could be volunteer work.

When you're writing your resume, people who are making changes in their careers are often advised to put a section that highlights the transferable skills and the credentials or experiences that are particularly relevant, and then a chronological part. And when describing your job duties, you may want to emphasize—in fact, you do want to emphasize the things that are most relevant to the type of work you're trying to get.

For example, you may be applying—let's say you're applying for a sales job, and you've had more of a general management job, but there were components of sales and you want to emphasize that.

Anita Brick: Sure, that makes sense. But then how do you rise above that huge stack, so to speak, of resumes that a hiring manager or recruiter will see? In fact, this is a question from one of the Exec MBA students: how do you get someone's attention when they have so many options to choose from?

Martha Mangelsdorf: That's a good question too. I did not, in my research, identify anybody who got a job career changing through a recruiter, unless maybe somebody who went back to school and got a specific degree.

Anita Brick: But let's say a corporate recruiter. I apply online, and someone in HR screens my resume, and I don't have direct experience.

Martha Mangelsdorf: That's not a good way for a career change. A much better way is to be networking into the industry. You want to be talking to people in the industry and particularly think about ways where there might be an intersection between what you do and what that industry does. Some ways you can do that, for example, is if you want to make a significant change, you might first get into the industry you want to be in, doing the function you already do, and then shift functions once you're in the industry.

Or you might think about changing your function within your existing organization. There are different ways, but networking with people is really—informational interviews are a really important step. If you want to make a career change and get a job in a different industry, you're not going to have a great shot by sending your resume, and particularly in an environment like right now, because there are lots of candidates out there. You're much better off getting into the networks.

Anita Brick: I think you're right. I like it because I think that people want, again, to mitigate risk in everything. I know you and someone sends a resume through me to you ...

Martha Mangelsdorf: Exact like.

Anita Brick: Hopefully we've established some trust, and that will increase the probability that you'll at least read it.

Martha Mangelsdorf: Exactly.

Anita Brick: So there was another Exec MBA—actually an Evening MBA student—who is a mid-career changer and is an engineer wanting to switch into a business manager role. What he's running up against is that he really doesn't have a lot of business management experience, and he's wondering how does he get around not having specific business skills like strategic management and operations and marketing, etc.?

Martha Mangelsdorf: OK, that's a really great question. That comes up a lot because people will often, you know, seek a new credential, and this is a great one, and look to change careers. Listening to that example, if he's having trouble getting this great business job, my immediate thought is to look for a job that's in between those two, somebody who's looking for an engineer manager, because I'm sure he knows he or she knows many engineers don't want to be managers.

And finding a job that requires the engineering skills and the management aptitude and knowledge which he's acquired through his MBA and shown by getting it, there's going to be many fewer people applying for that job. He or she is going to be much better positioned for it. And then down the road, if he or she wants to transfer to a pure management job, that would be a logical step.

Anita Brick: That's an interesting point. And someone had asked a question. This was actually an alum who had said, if a person is willing to change his or her career, it means that perhaps the previous career was not a good fit. As a potential employer in a new field, expecting to hear about, like, why they didn't like it, how do you avoid focusing on the negative aspects?

Martha Mangelsdorf: I think general career and job hunting advice is to avoid focusing on the negatives.

Anita Brick: Absolutely. I mean, who wants to go there, you know? Right.

Martha Mangelsdorf: Exactly. Think about it from a psychological point of view. Suppose someone came up to you at a party and said, you know, I hate the work I do; I want to do the kind of work you do—there's going to be an immediate, you know, you kind of want to back away. Whereas suppose someone walks up to you and says, you know, I've had a successful career doing X, but I think what you do is so fascinating that I'm interested in joining, you know, doing the kind of work you do. Can you tell me about it?

Which one of those people is going to be the one you want to talk to? Well, obviously, the second one and the same principle applies when you're looking for jobs. You want to emphasize your accomplishments in your existing career. You don't need to talk about what you didn't like about it. Employers have a tendency to think, if you didn't like one employer, maybe you're not going to like them.

Anita Brick: And they were going to say the same negative thing.

Martha Mangelsdorf: Exactly. They know they don't like it, right? So you want to focus on what you've accomplished in that first career, and in particular, you want to focus on the things that are relevant to the next career and why you're interested in that field.

Anita Brick: One other thing before we move on to a different topic, there is an Exec MBA student who's in her early 30s and has eight years of experience in management consulting, wants to transfer to investment banking or fixed income as an analyst, and wants to start at a more senior level.

Number one, in your experience, do you see that? And number two, if that's the aim, would you approach career change differently than what you've said so far?

Martha Mangelsdorf: The first thing that she needs to do, and as a University of Chicago MBA, she's well positioned to do this, is she probably knows people working in those industries. So talk with them about her interest in going into those fields and find out what they'd be looking for, where there's overlap. Certainly there should be some way for her to transfer a whole lot of skills and not have to start at the bottom.

The specific ways are going to be things that she'll get out of those conversations. Maybe there's possibilities for her depending on what her current situation is. Maybe there's possibilities for her to do some consulting. It very much depends on what the specifics of her field are. The important step for her is going to be the networking to get information about how she can make that transition smoothly.

Anita Brick: Good point. So we started talking about meeting your bliss halfway and being practical and passionate at the same time. How do you avoid being carried away by something that sounds cool, exciting, interesting, and not go on the wrong path and you start making up reasons why it would be practical, but you just get caught up in the moment?

Martha Mangelsdorf: Luckily, your audience, consisting of MBAs and current MBA students, are better positioned to avoid that problem than many other folks because they're quite sophisticated in terms of being able to analyze business opportunities.

Anita Brick: But one student is concerned about it, and I think that maybe there's a thought that if I really focus on what I love, I will not pay attention to practicality until it's too late.

Martha Mangelsdorf: My point is that you shouldn't do that. In other words, you … If you think about it as an equation with two variables—one is your bliss, if you will, or your passion, and the other is the market and what you need or want financially and what the opportunities are. So you need to look at both and find a balance that works for you.

And that balance can be in all different kinds of ways depending on who you are and which of those two variables is more important to you at the moment. The important thing is to really investigate the opportunity. You're thinking about the career path you're thinking of taking, just the way you'd investigate a line of business. You would think about having your company start or investment. Your career is a business. You run it and you really need to take a hard-headed look at what the opportunities are.

Anita Brick: So you could actually write a business case about a particular career path, just like you would if you were proposing in your workplace, going after or developing a product or in any business case that you would write.

Martha Mangelsdorf: Sure. But the difference is that it's your business. And just as if you're running a one-person small business, your career is that business. You don't have to be profit maximizing. And I wouldn't advise that, actually, unless that's the only thing you care about. You're looking for a balance of what you want to do and what the opportunity is.

So you really want to research the opportunity to make sure it's there. But one of the factors in your business case can be, this is what I really want to do, and I'm comfortable with whatever the trade-offs are. Does that make sense?

Anita Brick: Yeah, it does. Any other advice about how you would advise someone to meet his or her bliss halfway?

Martha Mangelsdorf: Well, let's see, I saw all kinds of interesting variations on that. Meeting your bliss halfway most directly applies to people who have a dream that's not what we would think of as terribly practical. Often, you know, like, they want to have a career in the arts that can be really hard to do. Those sorts of those …

Anita Brick: Well, an alum had that question and said, what strategies have you seen work, to have someone meet their bliss halfway if they're moving from an MBA job to acting or writing fiction?

Martha Mangelsdorf: OK, well.

Anita Brick: Maybe that would be a good example.

Martha Mangelsdorf: Sure. That's a great example. Here are two particular strategies for that kind of thing. One of them that works for a lot of people is—it actually works more easily than it used to, I think—it's what I call the two-career solution. And that is finding a way to do both of the things you want to do.

It's typically one thing that earns you more money and one thing that has more bliss associated with it. And it's easier to do today because with the internet and so forth, people are more open to flexible work arrangements than they were, say, 20 years ago when there was more of an idea that you were wedded to one particular company.

So, for example, one of the people I interviewed is a successful lawyer who also is an opera singer, and he went into the law because he, as a young man, after he'd studied music, realized it wasn't going to work for him as a career at that moment. And for a while, he was at a big law firm trying to do his concerts, and those two things didn't work very well because the schedules didn't work well.

He could have unpredictable developments in a legal case that would affect his rehearsal schedule. And he finally figured out a niche where he writes what are called appellate briefs—which can be scheduled, which are the things that law firms file when they're appealing a case—part time for a law firm and sings the rest of the time. And that works very well for him. So those types of solutions are one really good way to do that.

Another thing that's really important, if you're considering that kind of transition, is to really research well, for example, what are conditions like for most fiction writers in the area where you live? And really meet a lot of them and talk to them about how they make it work so that you really know what you're getting into and to figure out ways to explore it before quitting your so-called day job.

Another possibility in that—and MBAs are well positioned to do this, often, is to think of some practical variation of what you want to do. One of the people I interviewed had been a banker—a manager in banking, an executive in banking—and became an artist, which is a pretty huge career change. One interesting thing that he did was in between, he had a small business where he figured out—using his business skills, he figured out a practical way to make money from his art. He used to paint portraits of houses that he would sell to realtors, and to people who had fancy houses that they wanted pictures of. So basically developed a successful small business doing that, and from that was able to transition into showing his work in galleries.

Anita Brick: What if the bliss isn't an art kind of thing? It's a business kind of thing, but it's in an area where it's very competitive, even in, you know, a more robust economy. So let's say something like private equity or venture capital, that's where their bliss is. It's really hard to get in for most people. I mean, it's highly, highly competitive. How would you meet your bliss halfway in that kind of environment?

Martha Mangelsdorf: That's an interesting one. Obviously, again, the networking component, trying to see if you can actually get into a field is a good one. Seeing if you can get closer to it or get more experience in it. You know, for example, if you're in a corporate environment and the company has, sometimes they have internal corporate venture units, I mean, that might be a way that you could learn more about those kinds of things.

Again, you could network. That's an interesting question. I think one other way that people—actually, I can think of a couple strategies. One is to identify growing markets within that area. You know, for example, venture capitalists. Right now you can do research about what they're investing in. They're investing a whole lot more in energy. So if you have expertise in energy, that's an easier way in because they have a big demand for that.

And to start talking to people in the industry about where they see growth. Because if it's a growing section of the market, that's a place where people are adding folks. Venture capital right now is not projected to grow a lot. It's actually projected to shrink. So I would actually—that's a pretty tricky one to do at this particular moment in time and may not be a great opportunity.

But, you know, times change. Another area is to try to identify what it is that's most appealing to you about that. If it really doesn't seem like something you can get to from where you are right now, or can get you in any immediate time frame that would be satisfying to you, what are the features that really appeal to you about that, and are there other ways to achieve that?

Anita Brick: That's an interesting point because something that comes to mind, there is an alum on the West Coast, and that was really her dream. That was her bliss: to work in venture capital and specifically in biotechnology and venture capital. And she had a lot of really good credentials, but was butting up against lots of obstacles. And she started exploring, well, where do all these people hang out?

And she ended up creating a two-year agreement with an association. She became the executive director of the Association of Venture Capitalists in the Bay Area who were in biotechnology. So she ran the board. She built their strategic plan. She did that, and what that did for her is that it gave her—number one, it gave her this amazing network.

Martha Mangelsdorf: Right.

Anita Brick: But they also got to see what she was like—from a work ethic and quality, etc., etc. At the time it seemed like a detour, but it was actually a brilliant strategy.

Martha Mangelsdorf: Yep. I think that's a great idea. And that's a beautiful example of taking a long-term approach and thinking about this idea of a bridge. What can get you from point A to point B, and particularly, I think professional associations of all kinds are just a wonderful opportunity to get yourself into other networks. But that's a great example.

Anita Brick: If we have time for just a few more questions?

Martha Mangelsdorf: Sure.

Anita Brick: OK, great. … an Exec MBA student had a question again about strategies. Can you suggest target business sectors or occupations for someone with an MBA and 20 years of experience in business development, sales, marketing, and general management? This person's been in telecom but wants to do something completely different.

Martha Mangelsdorf: The wonderful news is that that person has a great selection of transferable skills. Obviously with that combination, I mean, you've got sales, you've got management, you've got business development. Those are useful in almost all industries, certainly all business-to-business industries.

I'm not going to answer this question. Not because I don't want to, but just simply because here's the thing. What is a good industry for this person depends a lot on what their interests are and also where they're located. Economies differ regionally, and I have no idea what kind of things interest this person.

Anita Brick: No, and that's totally fine. What should this person ask themselves as they explore possible other industries?

Martha Mangelsdorf: Well, obviously a really big one to ask is, is the industry growing or declining? You know, that's it. So ideally check the first one and not check the second one, but certainly not check the second one. You know, again, I would emphasize that it could be a gradual process. In other words, not to expect that there is a perfect second career or that they're going to find it right away.

Just give them some freedom to explore the—not that they're expecting to figure this out in the next 20 minutes or something. Then I would ask them to think about their own experience. Think of your current career as a room with windows through where you're sitting. You can see various other professions and various other industries.

Anita Brick: That's a good point. Vendors, kind of … Yeah. All that stuff.

Martha Mangelsdorf: Yeah. And the nice thing about any of those careers is that, if they interest you, or industries, if you already have connections to them in some way or another, you also can transform more easily to them because it's kind of like moving a piece on a checkerboard one space over rather than further across the board. So that's the first question to ask.

And then if that's not the case—you know, there's nothing near you in your work life that interests you—then you want to start thinking about exploring in a broader direction. And some of the questions you want to think about there, again, your larger goals in life. What do you want to accomplish in the rest of your work life? If there are particular things that are really important to you? Maybe it's financial, maybe it's more emotional satisfaction, or maybe it's a particular kind of job, in other words, that lets you use certain types of skills could be any of those things.

So it's important then to think about what you want and then to start thinking about, is there anyone you know who has a job that fits those categories, or are there industries you're particularly interested in exploring, and set out trying to explore those as hypotheses?

Think about—there's a possibility I may want to work in an industry and think about ways that you can explore that hypothesis, whether it's talking to people in the field, doing research about the industry on the web—there's a variety of different ways you can learn about whether or not that's something that interests you.

Anita Brick: Good point. There's an alum who's been in finance in a company in a single function, has moved along, has advanced as a manager, would love to have a broadening assignment in a different function. What was expressed here was in sales and marketing. This person's company does not have the mechanism to do that. So he or she could transfer to a completely different function.

But that means he has to start over again or stay in finance, which this person is pretty happy with. What kinds of questions would you ask if you are this person to help with that decision?

Martha Mangelsdorf: That's an interesting but good problem to have. In other words.

Anita Brick: Yeah, it is.

Martha Mangelsdorf: What really strikes me in that description is that the person likes their current job, which is really a great thing because it gives them—first of all, it gives them plenty of time to try to figure out this dilemma. It's not as if they're getting up every morning and going into work and thinking, I can't do this. You know.

Anita Brick: I like my job, but I want to broaden it.

Martha Mangelsdorf: So this is a good problem to have. So he or she should give themselves some time to kind of figure out an approach. And it's too bad that the company doesn't have a formal mechanism. What immediately strikes me, listening to that scenario, is there may not be a formal mechanism for that to happen, but I'll bet you if you started befriending some folks in the sales and marketing function, that there might be some kind of opportunity—like, I don't know what this company sells, but if they sell something in a business-to-business market, maybe they have to do ROI types of things, which salespeople probably don't enjoy a great deal.

Anita Brick: It's a good point.

Martha Mangelsdorf: If you could find some—there's probably some areas. There's probably something in that company where sales and finance and marketing or marketing and finance overlap. And if you started to connect to those people, you know, it's just a little project that he did, you know, on his lunch hour over a period of time, you know, those sorts of or on weekends or something in order to get experience in that other field.

If there's not a formal mechanism, it strikes me that there's probably some sort of informal overlap. And I'd be looking for that sweet spot. Where can you use your finance skills to benefit the marketing sales of the company?

Anita Brick: That's a good point. And I think the thing to be cognizant of, especially in the market that we're in, to make sure that everyone is aware that his manager or her manager is aware and so that everything is it's more that I'm going to jump in and support the organization more, as opposed to I just want to have this expanded opportunity.

Martha Mangelsdorf: Your point is really well taken, and I should have included that. And in fact, it's possible that it might not be possible right now if they really feel like their environment in the company is iffy … but don't do it if you're worried about that. But it certainly seems like something you may have to bide your time for the right project to come up. It's possible that that could be the case too.

Anita Brick: And I've seen people do that. And actually it's a very great strategy. So thanks for mentioning it. There was a woman who is a current evening student who thinks that she may want to make a career change into consulting, but she's concerned that it might derail her personal life and her ability to raise children. Well, I think that they can coexist if you find the right opportunity, but what are some questions that you would suggest that she asks as she's networking to see, can that coexist? Can she have a family a little bit down the line and be a great strategy consultant?

Martha Mangelsdorf: That's an interesting question. If it's important, when making career decisions, to really look squarely at what you want or need in your personal life, because you can probably figure out some way to work around it, but only if you're really cognizant of what the constraints in your personal life are. It's good that she's really thinking about these things.

She should take a pretty hard-headed look at—you say consulting?—obviously there's a very wide range of consulting and some of this description, if she's thinking particularly about …

Anita Brick: I think she was thinking hard-core strategy consulting.

Martha Mangelsdorf: For the big firms where it's often really long hours and ..

Anita Brick: A lot of travel, a lot of that. Yeah. I think that … although there are some companies that are changing that model. But yeah, I think that's what she's thinking about.

Martha Mangelsdorf: Well, in that case it might be and maybe—you may be able to help her, or your office may be able to help her figure out ways to talk to women who've been in those sorts of roles about what that's really like in terms of family. It might be people who've done it and aren't doing it any more.

Might be easier to talk to those folks, and I would imagine the alumni network can probably help her get some good information about what that's really like. And another question is also thinking about what her spouse's situation is, because that obviously plays a big role and what their mutual goals are in terms of having the children and what their two-career picture looks like, that could be a big issue.

And then to think about, are there alternatives if—suppose she explores the “big-time, heavy-duty strategy, lots of travel” option, and it really doesn't seem to her like it fits with what she wants in her personal life. You know? Then there are all kinds of alternatives. What are other careers? You know, other types of consulting for different kinds of firms or particular firms that have more family-friendly options that would be a good fit for her.

Anita Brick: I think that's true. And in the alumni profile section of the website, there are certainly people who have kind of found that career life. And one that comes to mind is a woman named Kate who works for a strategy firm, but she works part time.

Martha Mangelsdorf: Well, OK. That would be a great person to talk to.

Anita Brick: So that's good. And then the women's groups as well. The other question that I think was sort of related to this, I think as a career fit question, one of the weekend students said that he or she feels really overwhelmed: demanding job, going to school, spending time with family, and planning this career shift. What about taking time off?

How much time is too much time? And then what kinds of things should this person do if time off is part of the picture? And then I would add one tiny question to that: how do you know that this is the right time to do that?

Martha Mangelsdorf: It's an interesting question. So this person is there working full time and going to school.

Anita Brick: Part time in the weekend program, which usually means that they're traveling a fair distance on Saturdays.

Martha Mangelsdorf: And they have family responsibilities as well.

Anita Brick: Sounds like it. Yeah.

Martha Mangelsdorf: So are they thinking about taking time off from the school program or from the work?

Anita Brick: Oh, sorry. What I took away was that they were thinking about taking time off from work.

Martha Mangelsdorf: Would totally depend there, I'd say, on the corporate environment. I mean, some companies are quite receptive to that and others are not.

Anita Brick: What if it means just quitting? I mean, just quitting the job, taking time off from work? I mean, I would ask a financial question. But what are the questions?

Martha Mangelsdorf: There certainly are people … I've interviewed people for whom that strategy worked at the particular point in their life they were doing it. It can, for some people, work at the right time, in the right setting. The obvious questions are going to be, let's just kind of think this through.

One of them is going to be the big one. It’s going to be financial. What are your financial needs? What are your family's financial needs? What is your spouse's situation and how stable is that situation is also important. That's a good one to think through.

And also think about an alternative. Is there—it sounds like a pretty grueling combination, and it often is for people when they're going back to school and working full time. Is it possible to work—if particularly, you know, in this environment, some organizations are asking people to work less than full time. Is that a possibility? Or it may be that working 3/5 time or something might release some of the pressure while allowing you to maintain your career, particularly if the employer perceives a benefit to you getting an MBA, which they may often.

Again, that totally depends on the context of the company and the manager. There are a lot of things I don't know about from the information in this question, but I'm just hypothesizing here. And then the question of what your financial needs are. Is there an option that includes reducing some other aspect? For example, I don't know how that program works, but can you do it a little slower would be …

Anita Brick: Oh, absolutely. You have five years to complete a program which on average is about two and a half years schooling.

Martha Mangelsdorf: So if yeah, if that's an option, maybe …. I mean that would seem like really the perhaps the lowest-risk option is if you did the program a little more slowly and that might be something to really think about. And if you are thinking of taking time off, I'd want to have a game plan for how you were going to get back in.

Anita Brick: Yeah, and probably a detailed game plan of how you're going to spend your time, because that time off can just like … fly by. So one final question. I know we've covered lots of ground, and thank you. I mean, your insights are greatly appreciated. If you were going to boil this down to the top three things that people should consider as they're going through or contemplating a career change, what would you suggest? What are the top three things?

Martha Mangelsdorf: Well, three things—that's hard. I want to make it four, but OK.

Anita Brick: Well I'll let you—you can have four.

Martha Mangelsdorf: OK. Oh OK. So four things here. One is, again, don't think about just maximizing your bliss. Think about the intersection between what you like to do and what people will pay you adequately for and where there are good intersections. And look at both those variables and avoid this idea that there's one perfect thing for you to do that you can somehow figure out.

That's the first thing. The second thing is this is a longer-term process. Think in terms of how you're going to gradually transition from one thing to the next, and think about building a bridge between where you are and where you want to get to. And the third thing is to find low-risk ways to explore, to give yourself time and permission to kind of explore things in a small-scale way through networking, through getting involved in industry associations and researching industries, through getting coursework or taking on additional projects.

Think about ways that you can get more information about whether or not you'd like to do this career. The most important one is talking to people who already do it. … and I’m suddenly drawing a blank here on what I have done. Maybe it’s only three.

Anita Brick: That's totally fine. I think it is really important—the frustration can occur when someone looks at something with a very, very short-term perspective, because things sometimes take longer than they expect. Maybe the fourth, just to jump in, is to really build that network.

Martha Mangelsdorf: Yes. That is actually that's certainly an important one, is to think in terms of two kinds of networks, actually. And we haven't talked about this. So think about networking to learn. And that's trying to identify the professional networks in the field. You want to join and get involved with those in some way or another by talking to people who do that kind of work, figuring out what kind of associations they're involved in, what they read, all that sort of thing.

And the other thing to keep in mind is using your existing networks and then not just the networks. You have some business school. We all have huge networks, all the people we know, and those people can be unexpected sources of help.

Anita Brick: It's a good point, and certainly factor in things like LinkedIn. There's actually a Chicago Booth alumni and student network group within LinkedIn, which I think has 4 or 5,000 people in there right now. It's something that you can join and access. Even if people aren't in your direct line, you can still communicate with them.

Martha Mangelsdorf: Always a great opportunity.

Anita Brick: Great. Thank you so much, and we look forward to your book coming out in June, and best wishes and much success with your book.

Martha Mangelsdorf: OK. Thank you, Anita. Great talking with you.

Anita Brick: Great, thank you.

Martha Mangelsdorf: You too.

Anita Brick: And thank you all for listening. This is Anita Brick with CareerCast at Chicago Booth. Keep advancing.