Change Your Career, Change Your Life

Anita Brick: Hi, this is Anita Brick, and welcome to CareerCast at the Chicago GSB to help you advance in your career. Today we're speaking with Cherie Carter-Scott, who is a PhD and has been coaching change successfully since 1974. She's an international author, entrepreneur, consultant, lecturer, teacher and trainer, talk show host, and seminar leader. Her company, Motivation Management Service Institute Inc., has reached millions of people worldwide and she's had Fortune 500 corporate clients such as AMI, American Express, IBM, GTE, State Farm Insurance, Burger King, and Better Homes and Gardens.

I know, Cherie, you've written many different books. I know the one I was first familiar with was If Life Is a Game, These Are the Rules.

Cherie Carter-Scott: Yes, a lot of people read that book, because it's been translated into 40 languages.

Anita Brick: Wow. Well, and, you know, it feels like with career change, there are rules. And I was actually surprised by the number of questions that we received. We received probably about 40 questions—for us, that’s quite a bit.

And while we're not going to be able to answer all of them today, we're going to do our best in the time that you and I have together. But anyone who still has a question after today, they can send it to GSBworks@Chicagogsb.edu and just put “CareerCast question” in the subject line.

So a lot of people, they know they want to change. They know they hate what they do now but they don't know where to start. What's a great place to start?

Cherie Carter-Scott: What I say to most people is, when you get the urge or the itch to change careers, ask yourself what’s working about what you're currently doing, and what could change or improve? And really put it on a balance sheet. So draw a line in the center of the page on the left, put what's working and then what needs to change. Because then you can see: Is it a major change, a minor change, or a slight adjustment?

And that'll help you tune into what your action steps need to be. That's the very first step.

Anita Brick: One of our evening students said that, well, he or she knows very clearly what function they're targeting and yet doesn't really know the industry at all. Doesn't want to seem really unfocused, but wants to seem flexible because industry is less important than the function. How do you go about preparing for that kind of a change?

Cherie Carter-Scott: If you're going to get into the industry, you have to interview in order to get the job doing the function. So they have to seem a little bit knowledgeable. So I would suggest: start some research, find out what you're talking about, look at what you're going to be doing. Because when you show up for an interview for any kind of position, you're selling yourself. And when you're selling yourself, you want to know what it is that you're getting into.

You don’t want the person to say, well, have you done X before? Do you know about this? Do you know about that? What's your familiarity? And you keep looking at them with blank stares. It's not going to get you the job.

Anita Brick: I'm really passionate about something. I know what my interests are. How do I align them with a long-term career plan—”long term” meaning five to 10 years? And what's a good approach to align passion, interest, and talent?

Cherie Carter-Scott: Passion’s a really interesting word, and it's nice that one of your listeners actually put it down. When somebody is passionate about something, what I say is, all right, let's try to translate that passion or that emotion, that feeling, that excitement, that enthusiasm into some concrete action steps so that we look at where, when, how and who, what direction, what company, what organization, what city, what are the anchors that are going to allow you to be able to focus on that?

I had a situation with a woman who loved speaking French, shopping, and she was a terrific diner at elegant restaurants. And she said, “What am I going to do? What am I going to do?” I said, “Well, let's start with research. Let's look and see how you can make money shopping, how you can make money eating, how you can make money speaking French, how you can make money going to elegant restaurants.”

Now, lots of ideas may pop to mind as I say those things, but as she did her research, she would meet with people, ask some questions and get more information, and then continue the research. She ultimately got a job, and her job was working for a department store, and her first assignment was to be translating for a designer coming from Paris, taking the administration and the executive department to elegant restaurants: translating and eating.

Anita Brick: So I guess you have to know what you really want and where those passions lie. Because how would you even think of something like that?

Cherie Carter-Scott: Well, you wouldn't, and I wouldn't either, which is the good news, because I wouldn't say, oh, this is the kind of job we're going to get you completely out of the blue. But the person was clear on what they really loved and what they were really good at, and they were honest about it.

Anita Brick: I think that is really important because I think sometimes people have it in the back of their mind, or they'll think about it in the dark of night, but they'll never really express it because they think it's not possible.

Cherie Carter-Scott: Well, I mean, how honest is that to say I like to eat? True, I like going to restaurants. I mean, that to me was like, OK, how do we find you a job doing that? But it's called opening up the blue-sky possibilities.

Anita Brick: And then you could always drive it to practicalities, which of course you're going to need to do at some point.

Cherie Carter-Scott: Of course.

Anita Brick: All right. So now you take that and now you multiply it by two—and I'm not really sure if this is a multiplier or if it's to the power of two. What other kinds of things would you need to take into consideration when you're looking at two careers, passions, interests, and skills simultaneously?

Cherie Carter-Scott: That is an interesting situation. And what you have to do is, first of all, you have to communicate with each other, and you have to have a little nest egg to be able to get you through in case something happens along the way that both of you are unemployed. In the communication process, you have to be able to make certain that you're supporting each other, as opposed to tearing each other down or criticizing or judging each other, because that really is challenging.

What you want to do is reinforce each other, maybe have meetings at the beginning of the day and talk about what you're going to do today and what you can do to move this forward. And then at the end of the day, debrief and say, well, what did you get done today to move this forward? And what did I get done?

And congratulate each other and reinforce it. Remember the transition or getting a new job or a brand new career is in fact a job unto itself.

Anita Brick: Good point. How do you manage that when you're working full time and maybe even going to school on top of that?

Cherie Carter-Scott: Then you have three full-time jobs, and truly it's a challenge of time management because you need to make every minute count. There was a time in my life when I was a single parent. I was running my organization, I was in my PhD program, I was writing books, and I was traveling the world giving seminars. And at times I felt like I was going to fragment and completely split apart.

But actually it was the management of my time, my energy, my resources, and utilizing my support network around me that kept me glued together during that time.

Anita Brick: Wow. So you begin doing the preparation. You think about it. You look at some of the things that are really important to you. You start doing some research, and at some point you have to make a decision. And one of our Executive MBA students asked a question. He has been in a role for about 15 years. He moved from one company to another because the first company was having financial problems.

He has a lot of different skills, a lot of different roles, primarily in technology, hasn't reached the C-level suite yet, and his new company—or not-so-new company now—the upside potential is … there's not much. So he's at a decision point, and his decision is does he find another large company to go to, or does he start his own company?

How could he assess both options effectively?

Cherie Carter-Scott: Well, he's on the proverbial fence and on one side of the fence is staying with a large firm, and on the other side of the fence is starting his own company. And the pros and cons go both ways. Ultimately, what he has to examine is, is he the entrepreneurial personality? Does he have that or is he a company guy?

Because that's really the dividing line between starting your own company and not. What I mean by that entrepreneurial personality is someone who can tolerate ambiguity, uncertainty, and a lack of clarity about a paycheck without going crazy. The company person is a person who needs the stability, the security, the predictability of their paycheck every two weeks because without that, they are so uncomfortable that they can barely function.

Anita Brick: So I guess that's the first decision point.

Cherie Carter-Scott: So it's a critical point to be able to see what's true about me. Am I the kind of person who can be comfortable in a very uncertain, unpredictable environment? Do I thrive on that? Do I get excited by that? Does that feed me, or do I buckle under and say, gosh, I need the paycheck. I need that predictability. I need that in order to function at optimum level.

Anita Brick: And then at that point when you've made that basic decision, are there any other nuances to look at before making a final decision?

Cherie Carter-Scott: A lot of them. And what I suggest to people, sit down with a paper and look at the pros and cons, look at what the voices are saying in your head, probably saying to me, oh, you know, if you started your own company, you have all these people who believe in you and all these people who've been telling you for years, you are so good at this.

On the other side you say, yeah, but I've got to get operating capital and startup capital, and I've got to get everything in place. I’ve got to run an office, I’ve got to get all my systems in place, and there's a lot of work that goes into that. As a matter of fact, I don't know how you balance all those different roles at one time.

And then you go back and forth and back and forth with those. Yeah, but yeah, but yeah, but yeah, but … and you hear the pros and you hear the cons, you hear the pros, you hear the cons. And actually it's like a big bowl of spaghetti in your brain. And so I suggest to people that they get the spaghetti out on the table and they separate the strands.

Pros and cons, the good, the bad. Put it on paper, turn the paper over, and then look inside and see how it feels to stay with a big company. Does it feel scary or exciting? How does it feel to go out on your own? Does it feel scary or exciting? And that's an important line because exciting is positive and scary can be negative.

Anita Brick: So it sounds like it's a multistage process that someone would go through.

Cherie Carter-Scott: Well, sure, any of these major life choices and decisions are terribly important, and you don't want to treat them in a cavalier manner. You really want to give them weight, whether it's talking with your spouse or sibling or colleague, somebody that you trust who's going to be able to hear you.

I always suggest that when people are going through a transition, like a career change, that they really have some sort of external accountability, like a coach—somebody who can help them through those different steps along the way. Is this imagined, or is this real? Do you need to get more education in this area? Do you need to do more research in this area? What's important here? Because having someone to bounce things off of who doesn't have an agenda, is not going to take it personally, and really doesn't have a vote as to what you do is very, very helpful.

Anita Brick: That's a good point. There was another student who was concerned because he's moving back to Europe, and the research that he's done so far is that a great degree is OK, but that companies value a great degree less than they value the experience. It sounds like this is another personal assessment, but at this point in his life, he's mid-career. He can't afford to take a huge pay cut.

What would you advise someone like that who knows that they may have to start over? They can't really afford a big pay cut, and yet they have a strong desire to kind of make that change.

Cherie Carter-Scott: Well, has he conducted all of his research in Europe as to which companies he's pursuing?

Anita Brick: I think he has begun to do that. Yes.

Cherie Carter-Scott: OK. Because my experience, and I do a lot of work abroad, is that very often they're very thoughtful about that and they will really take it into consideration seriously. And he can advocate on his behalf why his education has been so meaningful and is going to actually either save the company money or increase their bottom line. He might be able to lobby for himself and negotiate a higher wage.

Anita Brick: I would agree with that. I think it really depends more on the company than necessarily Europe in aggregate.

Cherie Carter-Scott: I agree.

Anita Brick: I think this sort of moves us into a slightly different area, and one of the students said that he really wants to make a career change, which I guess everybody has submitted. The question is … but the thing that's kind of overwhelming him is this massive fear, especially changing careers during an economic downturn.

And he's also moving away from things that he has traditionally valued, like working for a large multinational company with good benefits. His question was, how can he evaluate these external options at the same time grappling with tremendous uncertainty?

Cherie Carter-Scott: Again, it's the inner process and the outer process, and you want to be able to keep a boundary between the two of those. When he talks about his overwhelm and his fear, especially in the economic climate, that's the fear part. And the overwhelm is internal. The economic downturn of the climate, that's external. He's moving away from multinational because he's not interested in that type of game anymore.

That's an external choice that impacts his internal reality. And if he's not interested in the multinational, what size company is he interested in? What type of an environment? What type of value system? In other words, I would suggest that he sit down and write out his ideal situation, his ideal job, his ideal relationship with his boss, his ideal responsibilities and duties.

Those kinds of things are really important, especially because lots of times people slide into careers. You know, it happened because of circumstances or availabilities. It wasn't necessarily something I chose. When I encourage people to really look and see, where do you function at optimum performance? Is it inside or outside? Is it with people or machines or animals? Is it tinkering with things, or is it using your head, your hands, or your heart? What part of you?

I remember a guy who came to see me who was an attorney, and he worked for the federal government, had a very prestigious job, which he absolutely hated. And I said to him, how did you get into law in the first place? And he said, well, my father, he thought that that was the most important job and that was his value system. So that's the direction that I went. But that's for my dad. It's not me. I'd rather be a bicycle mechanic.

Anita Brick: Yeah, well, it sounds like what you're saying is really assess the things that you have control over because it increases your certainty even in an uncertain world.

Cherie Carter-Scott: And also, if you're going to go into business for yourself, or are you going to sell yourself to a company? In either case, it's an enthusiasm, that excitement, that passion, that glow in your eyes that's going to sell your customers, to come to you, to work with you, to be around you. It's that positive energy that is magnetic.

So you really want to be able to make certain that you're clicking in to the right place, in the right time, in the right energy, and utilizing all those positive aspects of yourself.

Anita Brick: It's a good point, which comes to another question that I found a little fascinating. And this one student said that he's read articles that changing careers to increase your income is probably not a good idea. But he doesn't agree. And the question was how to communicate to the interviewer that the only reason you want to change is that greater remuneration. And why is that a bad idea?

Cherie Carter-Scott: Well, it cuts both ways. Number one, if the person sees that you're being truly honest and authentic in the moment and you say, the reason I want to change careers is because I see more opportunity, I see more possibilities, and I want to be able to make more money. And if you're very candid and forthright about it, it'll impress the person.

They won't think you're hiding something or being clandestine, which is really a negative in an interview situation. The other thing is that if somebody perceives that you're just after money and that's your only interest, they're going to think that you're rather shallow and they're going to question where your commitment is, because maybe you work with them for six months or so, and then another opportunity comes down the road that's offering you more money, or just job hop, you're out of there.

Anita Brick: And that's a good point. So the next area, and this seems to be the area where there was the greatest interest slash concern of the students and alums globally. And that was, how do you overcome the obstacles between you and your new career? And one of the questions to just kind of start off with a general question is how can a person overcome stereotypes regarding their past positions or their past function, or their past industry’s stereotypes?

Cherie Carter-Scott: It sounds to me like there's a perception of the job that they did, which was less than esteeming. Is that correct?

Anita Brick: Well, I think so. Or that it was a great job, but it doesn't really translate to their new career. And they feel that perhaps their old function and the things that they did aren't going to be valued by a potential new employer in a new career.

Cherie Carter-Scott: I got it. What I do is—people, when they sit down with me and we start looking at what they did before and what they're going to do in the future—we look at the translation of the actual job duties and responsibilities into a value system that can be communicated to someone in a different context. In other words, let's just say this is a real one.

You know, people who have been at home taking care of children and want to join the job force, well, that is a career. And it's a career in multitask cooking and management and making certain that everybody's needs are met. There's a lot of management that goes into the parenting and house management responsibility. So you take that and you actually contextualize it into that broader sense, as opposed to “I was a stay-at-home mom.” You stop apologizing for it.

I also can remember a person I coached who was in a communications company, and she said, “Well, every time they needed something, they'd call on me. And I said, “OK, let's go over every different task that you did. And let's put that in context.” “Well, I design websites. OK? And that was in the area of communication. It was also in the area of advertising and marketing. And then she said, “And I did this and I handled the staff and I did manage Stephanie's.” So we would take each function and then we would put it in the broader context of how did that add value to the company? Did it save money? Did it make money?

Did it improve morale? Was your contribution making the environment a company that people would really like to work for? What did you do that you could quantify or qualify to be able to demonstrate how your presence made a difference that was positive?

Anita Brick: Along with that, there was someone who's been in corporate America, worked globally for over 10 years, and he has an MBA from the University of Chicago. The problem, as he sees it, is he's never really developed any real skills or industry knowledge, but he's just a smart guy and he's looking for a new job. But when people say, well, what do you have to offer?

He is sort of embarrassed about it because he doesn't feel like he's developed any clear career path. And he said he feels a little bit like a ship lost at sea with an $80,000 debt.

Cherie Carter-Scott: Oh. Poor guy. Well, I'll tell you again, we're dealing with the … the outer part is the industry knowledge. He feels like there's a gap there. Well, for sure he needs to look at the industry he wants to go into and fill in that gap so that he gathers that information knowledge. But the other part sounds like he hasn't really valued what he's been doing these last 10 years, whether it's in America or globally.

He has to really sit down and say, OK, what did I learn? What did I demonstrate? How did I contribute? What did I add? How do I add value to the situation? He really has to do his homework, and I call that a kind of journaling process. It's open ended when you sit down and you say, this is what I bring to the table, and maybe he doesn't see it in the form of his job description or his function, but he'll see it in terms of meetings and relationships and decision-making and strategizing.

You'll see it in the little moments where he's, oh, yeah, I did that, I did that, yeah, I did that. He has to value himself.

Anita Brick: What if he can't see it? Who do you think could … maybe mentors, friends, colleagues who could help him see it?

Cherie Carter-Scott: Well, it could be anyone that he trusts who values him more than he does. Or it could be a neutral person who could help him see himself in a new light.

Anita Brick: And I guess he also has to be open to the fact that there is a possibility that there is more value that he's contributed than he may say.

Cherie Carter-Scott: Well, if he's been around the globe for 10 years and worked in corporate America and he's retained his jobs, either he's very, very qualified and doing a terrific job, or he's one of those people that people keep promoting and passing on, hoping to get him out of their department. And I think it's probably the former. He just hasn't seen his value.

Anita Brick: Sometimes people inflate their opinion of themselves, but sometimes I think that people deflate it a little bit because they will—oh, anybody can do that.

Cherie Carter-Scott: Yeah, they take it for granted.

Anita Brick: Exactly. How would you suggest that somebody approach a career change in a field where the probability for landing a position is quite remote? And let me give you a couple of possible examples. One is someone who's had 15-plus years of work experience and now wants to move into investment banking.

Or somewhere where there just aren't a lot of—limited positions. One of the alums really wants to be in management, but for a professional baseball team; another person has been doing sort of finance and company accounting and those kinds of things, and now wants to move into a hedge fund as a portfolio manager, but has no direct experience. And then the fourth person who had submitted a questionnaire, too, he's in an executive MBA program and really, again, wants to move into finance, has no experience in investment banking.

So how do you effect a career change in any of those areas? Because they're all really difficult to make that move when the probability isn't very high.

Cherie Carter-Scott: Well, you have to assess if you're going to win or lose, because when you're going for a situation that has high probability against you, you have to say, am I willing to go for it? Persevere regardless of what happens, and make it happen no matter what? Or am I setting up a losing situation where I'm going to be dissatisfied, disappointed, and discouraged?

And that's a really key situation because lots of times miraculous things happen, but they don't happen if you have a self-fulfilling prophecy that's against yourself.

Anita Brick: So how do you—if you're getting a lot of feedback, especially from people in the field saying, you know, we just don't hire that many people and we don't hire people who have this much experience or whatever excuses they get. How do you build some counter evidence to at least give you the time to think in some routes, so you can test it out without having people completely squash your dream well.

Cherie Carter-Scott: And they will also, they will try to squash your dream because probably they haven't realized theirs and they’re just passing it on. You have to see if this is it—you know, is investment banking it? Is that your thing? Is that the thing that's going to really make you happy? Where do you need to be able to take some of the ingredients of investment banking apart—relationships, dealing with money, supporting somebody financially—I mean, and see if there's an alternative that would satisfy you as well. If going down this particular tunnel is going to have you banging your head against the wall continuously.

Anita Brick: Well, that's a really good point. Like even the person who wants to manage a professional baseball team, maybe he or she just wants to be really close to baseball.

Cherie Carter-Scott: And if they want to be close to baseball, there are a lot of ways of doing that without necessarily going for a job that's going to be extremely difficult to land.

Anita Brick: Well, true. I mean, they could go work for equipment manufacturers, sponsors, or consulting firms that just create sponsorship and product placement in sports.

Cherie Carter-Scott: There you go.

Anita Brick: Lots of things.

Cherie Carter-Scott: There's alternatives. That's the key here. Don't get stuck in a particular form. Move back into the substance of what interests you and then see if you can't translate the form into alternatives that would be equally satisfying.

Anita Brick: So some people have been in smaller companies their entire careers and now kind of want to make the leap to a large multinational and are having a hard time convincing the person that—a recruiter, internal or external—that they can really handle that environment. What kinds of things would you suggest someone do?

Cherie Carter-Scott: Well, I would definitely suggest that they interview people who are working for multinationals and make certain that they find out what they're getting themselves into so that they're fully informed before they make this change, because there is a difference between a small company and a very large multinational. There's no question about it. The politics are different. The game rules change.

So they need to have done their homework first of all. And then second of all, I think a role play situation with someone or a variety of people, if it's going to be multiple roles, allow them to be able to be grilled and raked over the coals a few times, because that is enormously helpful to somebody to be able to make your mistakes in a safe environment, not necessarily in the real situation, to have a dress rehearsal, if you will.

Anita Brick: Absolutely. Because it then can give you the confidence you need to be enthusiastic and bring that positive energy that you mentioned before.

Cherie Carter-Scott: And if you write down all the questions that you don't want them to ask you and then give them to them, these are the things I'm afraid they're going to say …

Anita Brick: That’s true. And when I'm doing mock interviews with people, I say, OK, so now that I asked you all those questions, what were you hoping I would never ask you?

Cherie Carter-Scott: It's great.

Anita Brick: That's a good … it's a good instinct.

Cherie Carter-Scott: It's a good thing.

Anita Brick: So we've been talking a lot about moving into things like consulting, investment banking. There were two students, one actually in the Full-Time Program and one in the Executive MBA program, who wanted to understand how to translate that corporate experience into nonprofit. One was interested in nonprofits that focus on climate change, biodiversity, and the environment, and the other person was interested in nonprofit work at an international organization like the United Nations.

What would you suggest that someone who wants to go from corporate to nonprofit do to kind of make a case and really create a strong selling proposition?

Cherie Carter-Scott: Well, they have to build that bridge and they have to define what was part of the culture of the for-profit that's going to be different in the nonprofit. What do I need to do to be able to accommodate the change in value systems or and protocol calls and how people react to each other? I mean, what kind of change do I need to adjust to?

Because if they want to make that change, obviously there's something going on inside them that they're moving in a more philanthropic direction, more social responsibility, as opposed to just corporate finance. And so I would say, well, what do you need to shift about your demeanor, about your parlance, about your dress, about your way of framing what's of value to you?

Anita Brick: And then sort of understand both sides so that you can walk that bridge?

Cherie Carter-Scott: Well, I think it's terribly important for any kind of person who is going to make a change. You have to be able to feel comfortable, confident, capable of addressing any question that's thrown at you. And you have to be able to be honest and authentic in the process. You don't want to be acting a part, and then all of a sudden you get the part and you feel freaked out.

You can't fulfill it because you were acting in the dress rehearsal. So you really want to have that authenticity come through loud and clear.

Anita Brick: It sounds like you would apply something very similar if someone was going from the corporate environment to the academic world.

Cherie Carter-Scott: Oh yeah, definitely.

Anita Brick: And it might even be a bigger gap in terms of environment and such.

Cherie Carter-Scott: It is a big shift. I have taught at the university level myself, and it is a very big shift, and I've worked in multinational corporations, and the pace, the timing, the expectations, the deliverables—they're all different. It's kind of a different rhythm of life, and you have to click into that rhythm. If we're talking about the dance floor, you know, there's a little difference between doing a waltz and a samba versus a swing dance.

You know, they're very different styles. And so you have to be able to look and see what goes on here and pick up the rhythm, the tune, the flavor, the whole way the people interact.

Anita Brick: Well, and I think it just takes a lot of really talking to people and getting a sense of that. I guess it can serve two purposes. You get a sense for the differences and you also build relationships in the new field.

Cherie Carter-Scott: Being curious is terribly important. If you're curious, you start asking questions from that place of wanting to know, as opposed to having your arm around and pretending you know it all. And when you're curious, people can actually contribute to you. They can share their experience or knowledge or expertise; how it's been for them. And you can start learning things.

That's what I say to people that I coach. You go out there as a neophyte gathering data. You are an empty vessel, you're a sponge, and you want to find out what people have to tell you. So you're not going out there to show them how much you know; you're going out there to gather data, like you're doing a research project and you're going to assemble the data and you're going to synthesize it. It's an assignment.

Anita Brick: That's a very good way of looking at it. Well, I guess another area of data collection as we're building bridges, or at least maybe trying to explain gaps—there was another group of questions that had to do with how do you explain a gap in work experience? And one was actually very proactive. There was a woman who was contemplating taking some time off.

She just had a baby, and she was really thinking about what does she need to do now, as she's just contemplating that time off so that she'll be able to reenter the workforce, whether it's a couple of years from now or even longer.

Cherie Carter-Scott: I mean, that's a really wise way of looking at it, because, you know, when you do take time off and have a baby, it's a different rhythm of life. Again, it's a different language. So you want to be able to make certain that you carve out a certain amount of time every day to stay current. Now that time could be nap time, or it could be time when you have a sitter.

But it's time when you go on the internet, when you gather data about your industry, when you find out what's going on, when you make certain that you know what the trends are, changes or anything that's going on so that you're keeping pace with the pulse.

Anita Brick: How do you also stay engaged on the relationship, the networking side? What I've heard from some—actually, men and women who have been out of the workforce for a while, is that people aren't all that interested in talking to them. How do you overcome that barrier?

Cherie Carter-Scott: Well, if you can maintain your email relationships, that would be one thing. Number two is if you can find a night of the week when your spouse will be with the kids or you have a sitter and you actually meet with your colleagues so that you keep those relationships alive and well rather than having them just drift by the wayside.

Again, it's a proactive stance about relationship management and time management so that you fit in those activities that are going to keep you alive and vital and connected.

Anita Brick: So the second person is in kind of a gap period right now and is starting to interview and is not handling the question “Tell me about the last four months that you've been off” very well. She's wondering how to address it. It was a brief period. I mean, it was less than six months and she did some volunteering, but how can she present that more effectively?

Cherie Carter-Scott: This is usually done with rehearsing over and over and over again. I had a recent client who had a very similar situation, was actually fired from her last job, and what she was carrying with her was such embarrassment, even shame, about the firing that always came up in the interview. And she always gulped and found it hard to respond.

And they could see her faltering and hesitation. And it was always there in her face. So I suggested that she actually put it to herself, you know, with a third person. So it was not her asking herself, but the questions, why did you leave your last job? What happened there? Were you fired? So she was really in a confrontational mode with herself and being able to regroup, take a breath, look them in the eye, become—tell the truth in a way that it's not casting aspersions on them or on yourself, but actually addressing the situation. It wasn't a match, and we had to come to a realization that what they wanted and what I was able to deliver just was not a match.

Anita Brick: All right, so now let's take this up one more notch. Now there's an alum who went through the Executive MBA program and finished seven years ago. And because of personal and family reasons, he has not worked in seven years.

Cherie Carter-Scott: But he's done something.

Anita Brick: How does he, number one, fill the resume hole? And number two, he also wants to do it in the new industry.

Cherie Carter-Scott: OK. So the question is what has he been doing these seven years. He's been doing something. He hasn't been a couch potato sitting on the couch every day watching sitcoms. He's been doing something. And we have to put that something into context and see some value in it. That he has learned, grown, been of value, contributed to somebody, somehow, some way.

That's number one. He has to do that and he has to be able to believe it. Otherwise, when he walks in and people say, well, so what have you been doing the last seven years? He goes and stares at them.

Anita Brick: He's done them. But how does he build some confidence and conviction that anything that he has done is of value?

Cherie Carter-Scott: Number one, he has to take that inventory with himself. He can do it by himself; he can do it with a coach or a third party. But he has to take that inventory of, how did you spend your time? What did you do? How did that add to your life? And then the second thing he has to do is he has to rehearse, and he has to rehearse over and over again until he gets to the point where it's comfortable and it rolls off his tongue.

I mean, I'll tell you a situation that I had once, it was absolutely absurd and ridiculous. I was in a situation, I was working in New York, and I had a time when I needed a fill-in job in between my assignments. So I decided I was going to get a job. There were—I could do something respectable, earn a lot of money in a short period of time. And I got a job working as a bartender.

Now, I walked in for my interview. I'd never bartended before. This is on 49th Street and Eighth Avenue, and the guy who interviewed me said, so tell me about your experience bartending. I said, I've never been a bartender. He said, you've never been a bartender? Well, why should I hire you? And I looked him straight in the eye. I said, I'm smart, I'm quick, and my mother was an alcoholic—and he hired me on the spot. Honest to God. I mean, it was a true story.

Anita Brick: So how does that translate into someone wanting to get back in business after seven years?

Cherie Carter-Scott: Well, I mean, he can't be embarrassed about not working for seven years, and he has to focus on what his strengths are. What did he do when he did work? What did he do when he didn't work? He somehow supported himself these seven years, or his wife did or his family did. But that's smart even unto itself. Somebody to support you is smart. So I mean that's an asset.

Anita Brick: So really catalog it and keep looking for more and more evidence of the value that he did have.

Cherie Carter-Scott: He's got to get into the recontextualizing of everything that he is ashamed, embarrassed about or feeling sheepish about and spinning it in a way that it's an asset, not a liability.

Anita Brick: Well, it makes perfect sense. And it's sort of a good segue into sort of the last bucket under barriers. And there were two people who have worked almost 30 years. One person made a career change a few years ago at age 50, and it's not working out. And so now he wants to know how can he now go back—with four to five years in a completely different field—back to his old career path.

Cherie Carter-Scott: He's seen the light. He's actually awakened to what he truly loved. And he had an opportunity to go out there and explore other options. And he's really coming back to his one true love.

Anita Brick: But why did it take him five years?

Cherie Carter-Scott: Some people are slow learners!

Anita Brick: Yeah, but do you want a slow person on your team?

Cherie Carter-Scott: Well, you know, he's a loyal person. He hangs in there. He doesn't give up easily. He's tenacious. He perseveres. You know, I mean, lots of ways to be able to frame it. But he has to hold it like: I did what I did: because I'm tenacious and because I’m a good person and I'm loyal. And now I woke up and I want that.

Anita Brick: Got it. And someone asked the question … for someone over 50, what advice do you have for someone who would like to or needs to do something different, but doesn't know how or what to choose for a new path?

Cherie Carter-Scott: Oh, you’ve got to go back inside and you’ve got to ask yourself, number one, what's important to me? What do I value? Number two, what do I enjoy doing? Number three, what is a climate for me that allows me to be at optimum performance? You know, is it high pressure, low pressure? Is it collegial? Is it isolation? What works for me from the inside out?

And what are you good at? What makes you feel like a star? What makes you feel successful? What makes you feel like you're in the flow? You're in the right place at the right time and you're clicking? I mean, you’ve got to ask those kinds of questions. Values, preferences, optimum performance—those kind of little shovels that dig down.

And if he takes inventory of his life—and that's a great thing about being 50 as opposed to 20, is that you have 50 years to look back on. And that has so much data that is rich with information that you can draw from to be able to say, oh, I really performed well here, and I did great there.

I was really happy in that situation, and this really worked for me. Oh, and that place—I really hit my stride. Well, this one didn't work. When you go over each situation, you pluck from it the key ingredients. What worked, what didn't work, why did I change? What did I learn and what was really important to me to take away with me?

If you do that homework and next a homework assignment, it'll take you several hours and you sit down, you look at that whole map, you're going to come out with some really important ingredients. And I'm telling you, I have done this process over the last 30-plus years with numerous people on four continents, and it always works because they come out with the kernels, the true kernels of what makes them truly effective and happy on the job.

And, you know, the research has shown that people who are really doing what they prefer to be doing are much more effective and successful than the people who are doing something that they're able to do.

Anita Brick: And so how would you suggest that he sell all of that vast experience into a new field, when some people may not want to make that investment with someone with that much experience?

Cherie Carter-Scott: I'll give you an example. I sat down with a man who said to me, I've been in television and I've been working as an executive, and it's just not it. And I'm looking for it. And we did this inventory that I was talking about, and we plucked out all the key ingredients from when he first had his job as a deli boy at 10 years old, right up until his television job.

And what we found is that he liked working behind the scenes. He likes supporting people. He liked putting deals together. He liked being the logistical, financial person who made everybody happy in the process because he likes making people happy, but he doesn't want to be out in front, but he wants to ... I said, you can be a broker or an agent.

He said, OK, in what? And I said, well, you have to determine which industry. You know, is it in real estate or in literature or entertainment or, you know, I mean, there are lots of different options here. You have to really do some research and poke and see which industry matches with your personality style. And he did his research.

And then all of a sudden he said, you know, it's a speaking industry. OK, so you're going to be an agent in the speaking industry. You're going to be a booking agent maybe. He said yeah! I said, now the next choice is with a company that exists or on your own? So we went through this kind of convergent filter of taking his broad experience, watching the key ingredient come through and then determining the application to which industry, and then determining entrepreneur or company guy.

Anita Brick: And did he go for it?

Cherie Carter-Scott: He did.

Anita Brick: That's great. You know, it's really ironic because one of the questions—and I wasn't sure if I was going to ask this question or not, but you just gave me a great segue into it. One of the Executive MBA students, he's an attorney. He's in sales, kind of in business development in that area and really got bitten by the speaking bug.

And he gave an address at the national sales meeting for his company, and he has no experience doing it. He absolutely, positively loves it. He doesn't want to leave his other job, but he wants to build this speaking career as a sort of a career change. But keep the other one going. How would you suggest that he break into that area?

Because obviously you've coached people who are agents and you do a lot of that. Any advice that you would give to him?

Cherie Carter-Scott: Yeah. Number one is getting himself on the roster for any speaking opportunity, any situation in his company, outside his company, sales presentations, whatever, and getting himself videotaped every chance he can get. Number two, he wants to select some key topics. What does he speak on? And he wants to frame why he's different and better than the competition. What does he bring to that particular topic that other people don't bring?

Does he have specific examples, or does he have a lot of humor? Or does he have charisma or personality or case studies? Or what is it about him that makes him more desirable than the competition? And then what he wants to do is put together what would they call a one sheet and a demo tape? Oh, now it's a demo DVD, and he does it after he's recorded enough times of him speaking to audiences that he can have a nice representation of himself so that he can start marketing himself in different capacities.

Anita Brick: Sounds like good advice.

Cherie Carter-Scott: There are steps there, just actual concrete steps to be able to move in that direction. But again, it's building your experience base, making certain it's documented, being able to focus on your niche market and what you have to contribute, and then building that bridge.

Anita Brick: I think action is great. So maybe we can conclude our conversation today with some action steps. And if a person decides a career change is the right thing to do, what are three solid things that that person could do to begin to prepare?

Cherie Carter-Scott: Number one is to go inside and to do their personal inventory that we've been talking about. It's absolutely imperative that they know what they want. And I'm talking more in substance and the conditions and the environment in a situation that's going to be a match for them, as opposed to the super official aspect of how it looks from the outside, the prestige of the perks or the job title—really, the landing in the right place.

You know, the square person, square hole, round person, round hole. That's number one. And that's very, very, very important as a foundation. Number two, as you do your research as to building the bridge between who you are and the environment that's going to be a match, whether it is a multinational, whether it is a large company, small company, or whether you're going to go out on your own because you want to make certain that you make that choice from a very integrated place, not just from a whim.

And number three, that you do what it takes to be able to follow the steps, mapping out your goals, your targets, your dates, your accountabilities, and pulling an externally accountable person that you can respond to. Because we let ourselves slide a little bit from time to time, and especially if you're overwhelmed, it's very easy to slide on things like this as opposed to holding yourself accountable.

In one of my books called If Success Is a Game, These Are the Rules, I actually map out., you know, the definition of success. And what is the difference between a vision and a goal? And how do you map out your vision and then translate that into goals and then action steps in managing your resources? So it's a really nice, gentle road map to deploying yourself in very tangible ways.

Anita Brick: All right. So now you are getting prepared. How do you develop that conviction to really show that you're committed to this, both to your family so that they get on board and to potential networking contacts? Employers? The whole nine yards.

Cherie Carter-Scott: Start with yourself. You've got to convince yourself of your conviction. And if you're on the fence and wavering back and forth and doing the “yeah, but” dance, you have to get off the fence. Then you start with your immediate family and you let them know what you're thinking, what you're feeling, and what you are planning. And when you let them know that you, you know, invite their conversation and their concerns and their reservations or whatever, or they're cheerleading and they're rooting you on, and then you really enlist their support and say, I really need your support here.

And to remind me that when I forget what I said I wanted and I have a temporary amnesia, that you encourage me to go for it, as opposed to believing that I said I didn't want it. Then what you have to do is you have to take your sphere of influence out to another concentric circle, and you have to bridge to the outside world and to start making those steps to interview strangers again.

Making that conviction be clear. So it starts with you. Then it's your immediate family, your immediate friends, and then to the potential employers or colleagues or businesses or people that you're going to make contact with about who you are and about what you have to offer.

Anita Brick: My final question is if you could recommend one thing for people to focus on in the implementation of a career change, what would it be?

Cherie Carter-Scott: Clarity. And the reason I say clarity has to do with—there's a lot of talk these days about the laws of attraction. If you are clear about what you want, it sends a message to the universe and the messages. This is what I want. Like that woman who said, French, eating, restaurants, and shopping. You know, she was clear about what she wanted.

And that clarity really translates. And it echoes out there, especially if it's an honest, authentic clarity. And if it is, that's probably the most important thing that you can do of all. Rather than say, I want an executive position, you say, this is what's important to me and this is what I'm all about.

Anita Brick: Excellent. Thank you so much. This was really great. Thank you so much for taking the time. And if you would like to learn more about what Dr. Carter-Scott is doing, you can go to www.drcherie.com. And I think you had mentioned one other thing before we closed that might be helpful, especially people who are in this sort of storm of negativity. I think you wrote another book called Negaholics?

Cherie Carter-Scott: I did, and Negaholics has over 70 different tools and techniques to be able to make that shift from being hard on yourself to becoming kind to yourself. And so if you have any listeners today who tend to beat themselves up, Negaholics is a wonderful handbook and it's a fabulous tool. The other thing is, if you're on the positive side and you have people coming to you saying, can you help me with this?

Can you help me with that? The other book that they want to really consider is Transformational Life Coaching, which is my brand new book, just out. It's a terrific book to give you all the tools to be able to work with colleagues, friends, and family members, to coach them through these transitions that we all go through.

Anita Brick: Thank you so much and thank you all for listening. This is Anita Brick with CareerCast at the Chicago GSB. Keep advancing.